Subject: SMML28/05/99VOL559 Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 00:12:33 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: POW & Repulse wrecks 2: Mk 37, 3"/70 Gun Mount 3: Bikini Wrecks 4: Re: Battleship turrets 5: Colors for Tamiya's RN MTB 6: Shore-based torpedoes 7: German E-Boats 8: Re: Range Clocks 9: Re: Scale Clocks. 10: Is electrical modeling? 11: HMS Vanguard 12: PIRATE RADIO, RANGE CLOCKS, AND PT BOATS 13: Range Clocks and "how do you do photo-etch??? " 14: Re: Tumbling turrets 15: HMS Trenchant Camouflage 16: NEW Airfix,Heller,WEM... 17: Airfix HMS Hood kit -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Calling Erwin van Danze 2: FS: Revell kits 3: New books from Research in Scale -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Jonathan Parshall Subject: Re: POW & Repulse wrecks >> 1. Could I get a name and address of the diver who dived the Repulse last summer? I presume the PoW was a bit too deep to dive; the New Zealand team that dove the wrecks in 1989 was able to spend a lot of time on the Repulse but only a very short time on the PoW. << I was looking through my old email to find his name and email address again, and thus far have had no luck, which is odd, because I save all my old email from the Web site. I seem to recall that he was an oil worker. He didn't dive PoW because he wasn't able to find the wreck, apparently. But Repulse was a very easy dive. >> It is also interesting to note that the turrets stayed in the German dreadnoughts scuttled at Scapa Flow while they fell out of the Bismarck. I presume that there is some mechanical feature in the ships of the Second Reich to keep the turrets in place, which was removed by the time of the Third Reich. But why have this in the first place? If the ship rolls to the extent that would have the turrets fall out surely it would be too late anyway. << I suspect it may be due to the amount of rotation the ship's hull underwent on the way down. PoW and the German BBs didn't have all that far to sink to the bottom, hence their hulls maybe didn't become completely inverted. And unless the hull is completely inverted, I don't think the turret would come out. Turrets are held in by gravity, yes, but they sit like a plug inside the barbette. [Note that when Gneisenau had a cordite explosion in one of her forward turrets, the turret was lifted up a meter or so to vent the gas, but no lateral displacement occurred within the confines of the barbette.] Bismarck, on the other hand, had a long way to fall, and she may have flipped completely inverted before righting herself (as ships often do), allowing the turrets to fall free. Jon Parshall Imperial Japanese Navy Homepage http://www.skypoint.com/members/jbp/kaigun.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: JOHN A BURCH Subject: Mk 37, 3"/70 Gun Mount If anyone on the list has dimensional data (i.e., height, diameter, etc.,) on the USN's Mk 37 three inch "frog eyes" gun mount, as installed in NORFOLK (DL 1), NORTHAMPTON (CLC 1) and other DLs, DDs during the Fifties and Sixties, would you please provide such data. The information is sought for developing a master for a possible 1/700 scale resin offering. Likewise, if anyone has dimensional data on the USN Mk 42 5"/54 "frog eye" mount as in FOREST SHERMAN, would you please provide that (I realize the Mk 42 gun mount is in several Skywave equipment kits, but I am seeking data to validate the Skywave dimensions). Thanks in advance for any and all help. John Burch Gaithersburg, Maryland, USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Bikini Wrecks Hi Michael, I have to offer a suggestion here.. may I suggest a trawl along the European coastlines in summertime. You'll see a whole load of "bikini wrecks", including quite a few large German ones, which I think you will agree, when you see them, should have been scuttled years ago... if anyone wants to see a photo of ME in a bikini, I'll open the seacocks! Best Regards, Caroline Carter http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/index.htm White Ensign Models Hey Caroline, Sounds good to me. I'll post it on the SMML picpage if you like. All those in favour!!! ;->>> Oh & don't forget Hungary etc for some "German bikini wrecks", especially down on Lake Balaton. Shane PS: Just be thankful Mistress Lorna's not answering this -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Pieter Cornelissen Subject: Re: Battleship turrets I think the Scapa Flow website again demonstrates that overturned battleships in shallow water do have their turrets still attached, while battleships in deep water (many hundreds of meters) have lost them. I think (I'm not a naval architect) that big gun turrets need some time (maybe minutes) to fall out AND get separated from the hull of the ship. This would be a lot more reasonable than any speculation about a specific german design trait of the 1900's. AFAIK the german capital ships of WW2 were hardly changed, design-wise, from their WW1 cousins and we have all seen Ballard's pictures of Bismarck. Pieter Cornelissen Delft, The Netherlands -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: CAPTNWED@aol.com Subject: Colors for Tamiya's RN MTB Hi All A Buddy of mine needs to know what colors to use for the Tamiya RN MTB. He wants to go with the 1980s color scheme. Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: KDur597268@aol.com Subject: Shore-based torpedoes Hi folks - Leafing through JC Taylor's "German Warships of WW2" I stumbled on a statement that the cruiser Blucher was sunk by a shore-based torpedo battery in Oslofjord in 1940. This is the first I've heard of shore-based tubes. Was it common? Was it a ship weapon installed on land? Whose battery was it? Anyone know of any photographs? Etc., etc. Any info welcome. Thanks very much. Ken Durling -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Jean-Cyrille WAAG" Subject: German E-Boats Hello all, As I'm not a professional researcher, I would like to know if anyoyne could indicate good reference books or anything else about E-boats (the German Schnellboote that were raiding the Channel ) and anything about their location in the occupied Channel Islands (Jersey n Guernsey,... ) Thanks for help. Jean-Cyrille Hi Jean, There is a book out on German Coastal forces by M Whitney (I think) that's pretty good, I borrowed it last year from a friend & had a quick look thru it (Hey, I only had it for a couple of days). For the Channel Islands try the "After The Battle book: War in the Channel Islands: Then & Now", it might have some good info in it. Regards, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: Re: Range Clocks >> I have seen photos and models of thirties era battleships with "range clocks" prominently displayed on their masts. Does anyone know how these operated and why? << They helped the battle line concentrate fire, transmitting distance information via these mechanical "clocks". Bearing information was conveyed by indexes painted on the lower portion of the turret. For an illustration of this, go to: http://warship.simplenet.com/California48.htm Kurt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "J. London" Subject: Re: Scale Clocks. These were to indicate to other ships in a squadron at what range a ship was firing. They were particularly common on French and US battleships in the inter-war period and were mounted on the foremast structure. French ships used black clocks with white markings, US (and British) the reverse. R.A.Burt's "British Battleships 1919-1939" shows QUEEN ELIZABETH in 1922 with two range clocks, one above the other, which raises the question why the second clock? A further device to sssist gunnery control was a system of markings on the turret and barbette that indicated the turret's bearing. These systems were used for peacetime evolutions and would not have been used in war where such information could have been observed by an enemy. Mike London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Is electrical modeling? I want to know what everyone here thinks. There has been quite an increase lately in the number of models wired with lights and moving parts at the Nationals. I have always felt that the electric effects and the techniques used to install them should not be considered when picking the winner unless the installation of electrical violated basic modeling techniques. If they are to be considered, who judges one technique above another? I don't know a wire from a transistor so I consider myself unqualified to decide. Should electric effects and the difficulty of installation be considered where modeling techniques (construction, seams, decals etc.) are the basis we judge? Fortunately, being a ship judge, I haven't had to deal with this yet but still it must be addressed. It isn't covered anywhere that I can find in the Judges handbook (I could be wrong, mine is several years old). Sooner or later this will have to be addressed. I just wanted to know what the list thinks. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "John Rule" Subject: HMS Vanguard Having recently signed up I will make a first attempt to post a question on behalf of an old salty friend of mine. He wants to build the Hasegawa 1:450 model of HMS Vanguard and needs to know if anyone makes an etch brass set to enhance it. Thanks in advance John Rule (Hope the email works) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Baker Subject: PIRATE RADIO, RANGE CLOCKS, AND PT BOATS The U.S. Coast Guard ship used for radio transmission duties was a converted Maritime Commission C1-AM-V1 class dry cargo vessel; I believe it was the KEITHLY, but the name can be found in Robert F. Scheina's book about post-WW II U.S. Coast Guard ships published by the USNI Press several years ago or in a Jane's from the 1950s. Range clocks were intended to provide the range to target of the target being engaged by an individual ship in the battleline; they were placed high enough so that ships ahead and astern could read the figures above the smoke from the gun firing. USN battleships in the 1920s also had bearing marks painted in white on black paint around the front and sides of the turrest to convey bearing information, but it was not successful and the practice was terminated. Excellent sources for photography, drawings, and information about PT boats can be found in Victor Chun's recently reprinted book about PT boats (from Schiffer Publishers; it reproduces actual plans of most WW II PT boat classes) and in the less-expensive paperback book about U.S. Navy PT boats by Norman Polmar and Samuel L. Morison (Motorbooks International; it reproduces the excellent drawings of each and every USN PT class issued many years ago by the PT Boat Museum folks in Nashville, Tenn.). Al Ross's books have superb drawings and excellent information and photos, and Norm Friedman's U.S. Navy Small Combatants volume in his series of "Design History" books for the U.S. Naval Institute Press also has excellent plans and drawings by myself, Al Ross, and Alan Raven. Sorry I can't give more precise citations, but the books are now packed away, as we are in the process of moving. Very frustrating not being able to get to one's reference library, and the situation will persist through October, alas. Best/Dave Baker -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Range Clocks and "how do you do photo-etch??? " Hi Guys; First-Range clocks. A range clock is a clocklike device usually mounted on the rear superstructure or mast of a warship. It has one hand,similar to a clock. It is connected to the main calibre turrets, in a manner that I am not familiar with, to show the angle of bearing of the turrets. It`s purpose is to show ships to the rear of a particular ship the direction that that particular ship`s turrets are pointing and/or firing. Say the lead ship in a column is firing at an enemy but the ships behind her can`t see that target. They can have their turrets pointed in the right general direction and ready to fire when the target becomes visable to them. I am on 2-3 other lists where there are people who know the linkage machinery for this. I will ask and share the information I get. 2- I want to photo-etch thin brass sails for 1:1200 sailing ships, 1588-1860 AD. Is there a book or list or some source of info where I can learn to photo-etch?? Where do you get materials? I have about 550 1:1200 Napoleonic, 69 1:900 Napoleonic and maybe 300 Spanish Armada ships in 1:1200. Was going to vacuform in plastic, but brass would be stronger. Strength is important as these are all wargame ships and will be well handled, especially as each mast will be removable to show damage during battle. If it works out I will be doing sails for 15mm (1:100 ) ship sails as well. Thanks guys Chuck Duggie PS I found a new company that produces 1:600 WWII siebel ferrys and other coastal craft in resin. Good to do a diorama. These fit with the 2 cast lead manufacturers of 1:600 coastal craft. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Suvoroff@aol.com Subject: Re: Tumbling turrets >> The Scapa Flow ships settled on their keels... << On the contrary, all of the capital ships capsized except Hindenburg (sunk on an even keel) and Baden (not scuttled); the German did this deliberately to hinder salvage efforts. _Jutland to Junkyard_ shows an interesting picture of Konig Albert drydocked upside down - turrets and all. Yours, James D. Gray -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: HMS Trenchant Camouflage Hi Chaps Well, we're almost into the new millenium(yep, nearly 1 1/2 years to go: Shane) and the R.N is still camouflaging its ships.. I have here a photo of HM Submarine Trenchant in a nice stripey camouflage... turquoise blue and grey in fact. Maybe this relates to the sea colour in her next area of operation. Has anyone got any definitive ideas on this one? Best Regards, Caroline Carter http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/index.htm White Ensign Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Airfix HMS Hood kit Hi Guys, Re the Airfix 1/600 Hood kit, we (Peter H. and myself) have decided that we will not be simply up-scaling the 1/700 Scale Hood photoetched brass detail set for the Tamiya kit. A careful study of this kit reveals that it represents the kit in 1933 (ish!). The Tamiya kit is of course 1941, as sunk. Therefore we need more davits, removal of the degaussing cable, and more. However, we think that we will now provide parts to backdate her to 1932, with the catapult, flying-off platform atop 'B' turret, and also provide a set of parts for a Fairey F3-F, which we will probably add to the WEM PRO series. Peter will be starting work on this set very shortly. At his rate of knots it'll be finished inside a week, so look for an end-of June-release for this set. Comments on these ideas, or for further additions would be appreciated. Like... whatchyall think? Thanks for the input re. "extras" in 1/600 as well.. I think a selection of boats will probably be the next project in this scale, once the finances have recovered from the recent battering of new production items! Best Regards, Caroline Carter http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/index.htm White Ensign Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: Calling Erwin van Danze I tried to reply to your posting (SMML 447) on the Airfix HMS Repulse kit but my mesage was bounced back. Please contact me if you still need the information. Thanks Robert Lockie Cambridge UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: FS: Revell kits For Sale The following model ships for sale at $22.00 They are these Revell kits and they are from the 1960's. 1.USS FORREST SHERMAN 2.USS FLETCHER (DDE) version 3.USS BON HOMME RICHARD 4.USS RANGER 5.USS ENTERPRISE 6.USS NEW JERSEY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: HDente@aol.com Subject: New books from Research in Scale NEW Battleships of the Scharnhorst Class---list: $42.95, our price $35.00 Many pictures, small drawings including inboard profile, plan, hull stations and camoflage diagrams. Leningrad Class Soviet Destroyers WW 2----List: $14.00, our price $12.00 photos, plans, Russian text Soviet Antisubmarine Ships of Project 61---List; $15.00, our price $13.00 Kosmolets Ukrainy class guided missile frigates. nice plans, photos Tribal Class Destroyers---complete and comprehensive 1/400 and 1/700 plans, photos----List: $17.50, our price $14.00 Postage is $4.00 under $50.00, $5.00 $50.00 and up. Research in Scale 205 Maryland Ave Paterson, NJ 07503 hdente@aol.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: NEW Airfix,Heller,WEM... Hi Guys Things wot have just arrived (prices in pounds). ONE US dollar equals approx 1.59 pounds (GBP) Airfix 1/600 HMS Hood 6.80 GBP Airfix 1/600 Graf Spee 6.80 GBP Airfix 1/72 E-Boat 21.27 GBP Airfix 1/600 Moskva Soviet aircraft carrier 8.50 GBP Heller 1/400 Scharnhorst 17.01 GBP Heller 1/400 Torpedoboot 1939 T22-T36 8.50 GBP Restock of Revell 1/1200 Scharnhorst and Gneisenau at 2.51 GBP Revell USS Lionfish 10.17 GBP Squadron Signal "On Deck" USS Alabama Packed full of photos, both black and white and colour, with camou, plans and drawings 12.99 SHIPPING overseas at cost (or ask for a quote) E.C. add VAT at 17.5% to kits WHITE ENSIGN NEW STUFF POST FREE WORLDWIDE WEM PRO 7026 Invincible upgrade SET ONE inc funnels, boats, deck fittings, Seadarts etc £SOON! (SEE WEM PRO 7043 for vehicles) WEM PE 735 Photoetched Bofors details will do a bunch of these.. sights, rails, and other bits. 1.95 GBP Peter Hall has now done the (powered) twin oerlikon brass for us so aound 2-3 weeks Re WEM, we have the following right here now ("SOON" means from 1-3 weeks) WEM PRO 7027 Single 40mm Bofors Mk V Boffin (x4) (see WEM PE 735) 2.95 WEM PRO 7028 Twin 40mm Bofors x4 (see WEM PE 735 for optional photoetched extras) 2.95 WEM PRO 7029 Quad 40mm Bofors x3 (see WEM PE 735 for optional photoetched extras) 2.95 WEM PRO 7030 U.P. Launchers 1.57 SOON WEM PRO 7031 Paravanes 1.57 SOON WEM PRO 7032 Modern Liferaft Canisters (all nations) 1.57 SOON WEM PRO 7033 4.7” MkIX on MkXVIII single mount (many destroyers inc. O Class) (x3) 2.95 SOON WEM PRO 7034 4 inch Single QF Mk V HA (AA many ships, inc.destroyers,cruisers) (x4) 2.95 WEM PRO 7035 Single 40mm Bofors Mk VII (x4) 2.95 WEM PRO 7036 Single 40mm Bofors Mk III (x4) 2.95 WEM PRO 7037 Mk V Twin Powered Oerlikons without armour box inc. etched brass x10 3.36 SOON! WEM PRO 7038 Mk V Twin Powered Oerlikons WITH armour box inc. etched brass x10 3.36 SOON! WEM PRO 7039 3.7 inch Anti-Aircraft gun with sandbag emplacement Docks, cities, standard anti-aircraft Army mount (x1) 2.12 WEM PRO 7040 4.5 inch Anti-Aircraft gun with emplacement (x1) 2.12 SOON! WEM PRO 7041 1982 HMS Illustrious conversion for Revell/Dragon Invincible SOON WEM PRO 7042 4 inch Single QF Mk V in assymetric sheld (P Class destroyer) replaces incorrect one in the Tamiya kit (x4) £2.95 WEM PRO 7043 DML/Revell 1/700 HMS Invincible upgrade SET TWO consists of FULL SET of DECK VEHICLES £SOON WEM PRO 7044 British cruiser Crane Cabs, cast resin with photoetched brass booms (x2) 2.12 NEW SET For full listings: http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/plist1.htm http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/main.htm Confused? You should be! If you want a set of "paper" lists mailed, just holler... BTW, You will also get this stuff thru the usual dealers e.g. Pacific Front Hobbies. See you all after the weekend with a special report from Navy Days! Best Regards, Caroline Carter http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/index.htm White Ensign Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume