Subject: SMML31/05/99VOL562 Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 00:34:24 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Memorial Day 2: Re: Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy 3: Ship model exhibit 4: Dating the Pearl Harbor panorama 5: Re: is electrical modeling? 6: Re: Oribi & Onslow, and note to Shane, plus the WEM 'CC'. 7: BSW, reading glasses & portholes 8: Re: Info about a book 9: Re: Onslow/Oribi Colour Scheme 10: Re: Carolines Bikini Poses 11: IJN Auxilaries 12: Re: Oribi and Onslow 13: Re: JUNG AT HEART 14: Re: USN Depth Charge Colours 15: 1:600 Siebel ferry and others -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Model Expo Sale -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS Welcome to the USA Memorial Day edition of SMML. To all the US subscibers, In memory of all those who served & those who paid the ultimate sacrifice in service to their country. LEST WE FORGET Shane & Lorna Jenkins -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Joseph W. Reyna" Subject: Memorial Day On Memorial Day, these words below better express my gratitude to the multitude of souls who have made the supreme sacrifice than anything I could add: Lest we forget. In Flanders Fields - by John McCrae ============================ In Flanders fields the poppies blow Between the crosses, row on row, That mark our place; and in the sky The larks, still bravely singing, fly Scarce heard amid the guns below. We are the Dead. Short days ago We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow, Loved, and were loved, and now we lie In Flanders fields. Take up our quarrel with the foe: To you from failing hands we throw The torch; be yours to hold it high. If ye break faith with us who die We shall not sleep, though poppies grow In Flanders fields. The Navy Hymn - Words by William Whiting Melody by Rev. John Bacchus Dykes ================================== Eternal Father, strong to save, Whose arm hath bound the restless wave, Who bidd'st the mighty ocean deep Its own appointed limits keep; Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee, For those in peril on the sea! O Christ! Whose voice the waters heard And hushed their raging at Thy word, Who walked'st on the foaming deep, And calm amidst its rage didst sleep; Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee, For those in peril on the sea! Most Holy Spirit! Who didst brood Upon the chaos dark and rude, And bid its angry tumult cease, And give, for wild confusion, peace; Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee, For those in peril on the sea! O Trinity of love and power! Our brethren shield in danger's hour; From rock and tempest, fire and foe, Protect them wheresoe'er they go; Thus evermore shall rise to Thee Glad hymns of praise from land and sea. Last, but certainly not least: Greater Love hath no man, that he lay down his life for his friends - John 15:13 Joe Reyna -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Les Brown Subject: Re: Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy This book is actually by Hansgeorg Jentschura, Dieter Jung and Peter Mickel. The book contains much tabulated data together with photos and drawings. The drawings are generally only to a small scale with many minor vessels and older ships shown in profile only - no plan view. With many of the larger vessels the drawings show how the vessels changed during their life time and also variations between sister ships. The photographs are generally very clear but once again these are only small. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Ship model exhibit If any SMMLies are in Maine between now and October 17, please stop in at the Penobscot Marine Museum in Searsport. The new exhibit is "Model Shipwrights: Marine Model Makers in Maine", which features models built by a dozen of us who do this for a living. Models range from folk art workboats to exquisite yachts. There are perhaps 30-40 models and half-hulls on display. If anyone does venture up here, let me know. I'm only about 40 minutes away from the Museum (and BlueJacket Shipcrafters) and would be happy to play tour guide. Al Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: Dating the Pearl Harbor panorama Missed six carriers in the panorama. Note that there are two Independence class CVLs in the East Loch, and one next to Enterprise. There are also THREE Essex class carriers on the far side of Ford Island. With respect to the Essexes, the right hand one at least (probably the right two) are short-hull, and none appear to have the starboard side 40mm quads. It's also significant that all eight carriers are in Measure 21 - none in dazzle - which indicates to me that this must be first half of 1944. I haven't charted who had what when, but there is an easier way to date the photo using the Enterprise and the operations history of Task Force 58. I think the photo was taken in the first half of January, 1944. Here's why. Task Force 58 left Pearl in late January 1944 (I know Yorktown left January 15, Princeton left Jan. 19 and I think Saratoga left the same day - Enterprise left after the 12th and crossed the equator on the 22nd - don't know when she left Pearl). When TF 58 left, it consisted of Enterprise, Saratoga, four Essex class carriers (Essex, Yorktown, Intrepid and Bunker Hill) and all six light carriers. The fleet struck against the Marshalls, then anchored at Majuro, then struck at Truk and the Marianas, then Majuro again. The major innovation TF 58 is known for - resupplying from forward bases rather then returning to Pearl after each strike - means that it would be rare for a lot of major ships to be in port at the same time. But the key to dating this picture is Enterprise (which we can identify in the photo), which did not return to Pearl again till after Philippine Sea (she supported landings through July 5), at which time she received dazzle camouflage that she kept until January 1945. She is photographed in dazzle August 2, by the way. So the photo has to be either January before the fleet left, or the latter part of July, before Enterprise repainted. Saratoga spent the spring of 1944 operating with British units in the Indian Ocean and left May 17 for an extended refit stateside that didn't conclude till early 1945. While I don't know that she couldn't have been at Pearl briefly in July 1944 while Enterprise was, I doubt it. In any event, the odds that three Essex class and three Independence class ships - all in Measure 21 and early war AA fit - would have been at Pearl in late July are pretty slim. (I haven't checked to see if there were still three CVLs or three Essexes in Measure 21 by July 1944, by the way - that's one way to confirm my theory but I haven't got time to do it at the moment - nailing down the Sara's whereabouts in July would probably be easier). So that's why I think we're talking January, which is a good time for a photo. What we have here is a panoramic view of practically the entire US carrier fleet at Pearl in January 1944, the last time it would be together in one picture in port, on the eve of its leaving for the history books as it began the eighteen month long push across the Pacific to Tokyo Bay. If you chose a time to take a panoramic shot of the fleet at Pearl, this would be the time! (There are more carriers in the shots at Majuro, but I doubt there are any at Pearl). Michael Smith Marshall, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: cwjerden Subject: Re: is electrical modeling? Rusty, I too do some judging at small IPMS contests. I can only go on my own veiws. Maybe. I have not had too judge too many of these types of models but I allways use the following critereia; A. Is this a well built model sans the lights? B. Are there any flaws introduced to the model in order to light it, ie nonscale posts, cables or exposed switches not present on the prototype. C. Is the lighting done in a way that enhances or detracts from the scale effect of the model. Over-done "special effects" will detract from the scale look of a well done model. All the lights off the Christmas tree won't help a poorly assembled or poorly painted model. So, one guys opinon. If it is the best done MODEL in its class and it happens to be electrical, then so be it, I'll vote for it (this hasn't happened yet. The few times I've seen these "electrics" we had a clearly better model in the class). I have always been lucky to judge with folks that feel the same way. P.S. Please remember, your contest judges are non-paid volunteers, doing the best they can. Without them you have no contest, Please treat them right. Have a good day, Charles J. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Douglas Martin" Subject: Re: Oribi & Onslow, and note to Shane, plus the WEM 'CC'. The only book I can lay my hands on just now is 'Ensign 6' War Built Destroyers, O - Z Classes, by A Raven & J Roberts, from which this info is taken. There are various colour plates and a centre spread of Oribi, as in late 1942. The first vessels came into service in late 1941, early 1942 and some were painted in the early type of Admiralty disruptive schemes. Onslow completed in overall '507B', medium grey. The overall 507B was quickly changed to a 'dark hull and light upperworks design', and Oribi was also painted in this style in early 1942. In mid 1942, due to 'pigment' shortages, a new pattern and range of colours was introduced, including Oribi and Onslow in Autumn 1942 - Oribi per the centre spread. Various schemes were worn by all the new ships during 1942. It also says that ships not wearing one of the Admiralty designs were usually painted in dark hull/light upperworks, in 1942/43. Onslow in shown in a much 'darker' version of Oribi's 'spread' on Arctic convoy duty, on 10/12/42 (darker in that the 'spread' is washed out in appearance). Obedient, latter half of 1942, again same appearance. Onslow again in April 1943, same pattern with lattice mast. Interestingly enough, Rocket is shown with a full length 'dark' hull with the painted area forward of the funnel - just under the bridge, (step up from the rear deck to fore deck) parallel with the hull aft of the funnel. (August 1943) Saumerez on 04/12/1943 is shown with the same panel, but its cut off aft of 'A' turret, with the front part parallel to the ships stem. Terpsichore, 01/44, shown with the hull completely 'dark' with 'light upperworks'. Lively, Legion and Lance all seem to have pure 'dark' hulls and 'light upperworks', as completed in 1941 (pics in Navies of WW2, British DDs vol.1), these ships all being early 1942 losses, so could be the way Onslow and Oribi appeared. In Vol. 2, we see Oribi as completed in what looks like a single colour, although the bridge above the gun deck 'looks' darker (this is an IWM photo), as are the following: Offa, apparently full hull 'dark', 'light upperworks', undated, as is Petard. And so it goes on, ain't research fun? Shane: now we've started this quoting of chapter and verse lark, who's going to volunteer and set up a database for all this information............?? Douglas (Scotland) Pondering over the WEM CC 'model', if its been seen near a beach, one would presume a shallow draft? Will the model be a 1990s version, will the paintwork be in pristine condition or with 'weathering' to show the effects of 'age and sunlight.....' Wondering if the next PSM sub issue will be wrapped around his ears on delivery........ Hi Douglas, Well, the new(ish) WEM CC model will have to painted realisticaly, I'd suggest some very liberal sanding back of the rough edges, followed by oils & washes. After that a fresh coat of gloss will add wonders to the model. Good thing I live on the other side of the world, or my PSM sub would most probably end up the same way, except lower down for letting this thread go on & on........ In regards, to your query about who's going to keep the database, I love it when people ask this sort of question, mainly because it usually means they've just been volunteered into what they were asking about ;->>. Shane Mistress Lorna says that any good model such as the CC DESERVES decent after market parts such as those manufactured by Yves St Laurent, Chanel, Armani and Prada. Plus a decent collection from Victoria's Secret and Frederick's of Hollywood. All these items improve the model (and its disposition) no end ;-). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Alan Lindstrom" Subject: BSW, reading glasses & portholes Sorry to see the Bureau of Small Warships go away. Wish I'd gotten around to ordering their Somers-class DD as we probably won't see another one of those in 1/700 any time soon. USN pre-war DD classes are becoming an endangered species in 1/700 now that both Classic Warships and BSW no longer make them. Here's a couple of tips that newer modelers may find useful. I just picked up a pair of 4-power (4x) reading glasses and it really makes doing the detail work with PE, etc much easier because you get good magnification and can still use both hands. Of course you can't see too well for a few minutes after you take them off. Second, I happened on a method for moving over a drilled-out porthole just a little bit. When you try to fill them with putty or even superglue and them redrill in a slightly different spot, the drill tends to slip into the old hole. So now I super glue in an appropriate size of plastic rod in the hole, trim it flush with the hull and then sand a bit, and then you can redrill the hole nearby with out the drill slipping into the old hole. Alan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: John Clements Subject: Re: Info about a book >> Does anyone have the book. Warships of Imperial Japanese Navy by Jung & Mickel Jentschura, is it any good? is it worth the price? any good plans in >it? << I'm sure you'll get lots of answers on this one! It is the only really comprehensive book which gives details, simple plans (on a constant scale of 1/1250) and brief histories for all Japanese warships up to 1945, and a limited number of photographs, but at least one of each class. The plans do show variants and refits but obviously there is a limit to what can be squeezed into a single volume. If you're interested in just particular ships or types, there are better books specifically for many of those now being published but if you want an overview, and a flavour of the IJN shipwise, then this is the one to buy. And just for UK SMMLers, the book on Japanese strategy and warship technology which was mentioned so glowingly a few weeks ago, Kaigun, is being discounted by Amazon UK from c£50 to £30. Their site lists a remarkably good selection of naval stuff. John Clements -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Peter Hall" Subject: Re: Onslow/Oribi Colour Scheme >> Can anyone confirm that Oribi and Onslow were painted in dark hull/light upperworks in the late 1941 early 1942 period. << I happen to have in front of me, some photographs of Onslow that appear to be quite early. Unfortunately they are B&W, but they seem to bear out the light superstructure dark hull theory. The picture I have of Oribi is the one of her tied up alongside the KG5 after the latter had run over the Punjabi. In this photo Oribi is a mess with the darker hull paint flaking off in large quantities even revealing the white penant number G66. It looks as though the hull paint had been a uniform colour along the entire length. The incident puts that at May 42, so Yes you are right. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Peter Hall" Subject: Re: Carolines Bikini Poses Hi Chris, I thought that as the personnel in question are away for Chatham Navy days, I can get my two penny'th in as well. I will probably get shot for it but to answer your questions, here goes. >> Firstly, there is the question of scale. Do we want to have Caroline in a diminuative 1:700 or a busty 1:72? << It will have to be a small scale, because packaging of irregular shapes is a problem. And even some 1/700 scale kits can be large. >> Secondly, you must specify either full-hull or water line. << Definately full hull for this model, to show off her graceful curvy lines. Unfortuneately the superstructure has undergone some extensive repairs and and is fitted with a rather noisey siren. >> Thirdly, you must ask her how many resin or (possibly) white metal detailing parts are to be included to enhance the resulting pic. << Small parts prefered (Daves?) >> Fourthly will there be fully detailed etchings available? << Of course there will, complete with paddles and rudders. And other minute parts as well. Dave again? >> Fifthly, will can we honestly expect Dave to provide the (now standard) six pages of instructions including both plan and isometric, exploded diagrams? << Get Caroline to sit still long enough to draw a diagram?? No! I don't think so. >> Sixthly, will there be room for it all go up on the website? ...In the 'pre owned' section possibly? << Only if you have a spare 15 megabites >> Seventhly, who is going to be asked for the detailed, full-build article in order to help others obtain the most pleasure from it...? Dave perhaps? << Yes, but only when he can find the time. Ask him if he is going to finish the Heinkel before it gets buried in dust or becomes an antique. >> Lastly, do we honestly expect WEM to market this product themselves? Perhaps Iron Shipwrights might like to knock it out. << Don't knock Iron Shipwight, they are doing a magnificent job. Their Accuracy is a shining example of what we have come to expect from some of our cousins across the pond. >> One has to be fully aware of all these attendent problems when one asks a lady in Caroline's position to adopt a new pose. It's not just simply a case of donning the apparal and 'going for a take'. << Caroline has had problems with her attendants from time to time, but one just can't get the staff these days. She's had to settle for Dave and the rest of the mottly crew. 'Going for a takeaway' more like. I think I'll sign off now while I still have a job. I'm safe for a while though as they won't be able to read SMMLie in Chatham!!! All the best Peter. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Arjun Sarup" Subject: IJN Auxilaries Hello again, After the question on 'IJN wrecks', here's another one. I have no reference books out here, so SMML/Internet is my only source of information. Thanks to Nihon Kaigun and similar sites, we pretty much know the kind and numbers of warships used by the IJN. Quite obviously, no navy can function unsupported, and the IJN must have had quite a few auxiliaries, including fleet tankers and ammunition ships, etc., apart from press-ganging their merchant navy during the war. Here's the question; does anyone have an approximate idea of how many ships fit into these categories (as naval auxiliaries), as well as passenger ships converted into troop ships, plus pure cargo ships? This, of course, is from Pearl Harbour onwards. Maybe someone would know how many ships were captured and reused by the IJN as well. Also, would it have been standard practice to have an IJN officer aboard each merchant navy ship? Thanks. Arjun Sarup Mauritius -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Tim Stoneman Subject: Re: Oribi and Onslow Both were certainly in dark grey hulls/light grey superstructure at some stage prior to the end of 1942; there are IWM photos of both in this scheme, reproduced in Haines' 'Destroyers at War'. Neither is dated in the caption, but both are prior to the Barents Sea battle. The ORIBI one is taken in an Icelandic fjord and shows her alongside KING GEORGE V whilst the latter still has the damage to her bows resulting from ramming and sinking PUNJABI, thus dating the photo to early May 42. The ONSLOW shot shows her with a tripod mast, which was replaced with a lattice during her repairs after the Barents Sea battle; she was in the Home Fleet Emergency Destroyers scheme by the time she fought that battle. Thus it must have been taken before that. Tim Stoneman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Robert Vancel Subject: Re: JUNG AT HEART That's also the name of the song in the VW commercial. The one where the couple are in the car and the action all around them runs in synch with the song. Well, I liked it, anyway. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: USN Depth Charge Colours Well, I know that I've seen countershaded USN depth charges. But I've just checked (albeit quickly) my US PT references (Ross, Chun, Johnson, etc.) and failed to find any such examples (though one photo did appear--emphasis on appear--to show a countershaded depth charge). I did find depth charges painted light overall on dark-painted boats, and dark overall on dark-painted boats. So you're probably safe going solie colour overall. That said, however, I'll certainly defer to the redoubtable Al Ross on this subject. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: 1:600 Siebel ferry and others Hi; I have well upwards of 250 1:600 coastal craft for wargaming purposes. Since these are for wargaming the chance is that some ugly ox with 10 thumbs per hand (like me) will be handling them. Therefore they are not as well detailed as what most of you are used to. On the other hand I have the temptation to do an "in harbor" diorama with a pier and 3-4 alongside, so I may detail some up. There are 3 manufacturers of these boats. SDD and Skytrex are UK companies and cast their craft in lead/pewter alloy. PT Dockyard is a US company and does his in resin. Due to the afore-mentioned 10 thumbed ox situation I am hesitant to field the resin models with resin gun barrels. Some are being replaced with brass rod, others are being totally replaced with SDD/Skytrex metal pieces from the parts box. Skytrex will sell you extra parts. These vary in quality- the 3" and 40mm are good, the 4x20mm Flakvierling reeks. The resin boats are from David Gregory at the PT Dockyard. He can be reached at: mailto:David.Gregory@usa.xerox.com By wargame standard he makes nice models. Here is his list- US-80'Elco / 78' Higgins / 77' Elco / 63' ASRC / 110'SC / PGM 1 / PC 173' / 80' Elco Thunderbolt / 70' Scott Paine / 77'Elco Gunboat German-S-38 / S-38 upgunned / MFP-C / AFP-C / I-Lighter / Raumboat / Siebel Ferry / Pil boat / AFP-D / MFP-D Soviet-Tp.1125 AMGB / D3 MTB / MO4 Subchaser / Tp.1125AMGB with Katyusha / Shtorm TB / TK MGB / BMO Subchaser British-BPB 72'MGB / Elco 70"MTB / BPB 72'MTB / Elco 77'MTB / BPB 60'MTB / BPB 70' MGB / Higgins 69"MGB / Vosper 70' MTB / Fairmile HDML / BPB 60' MA/SBFinnish-55' Syoksy MTB / VMV 17 SC / Taisto-Hurja MTB / RB-1-12 MTBJapanese-Daihatsu barge Italian- MS-51 / Gabbiano DE French- VTB-8 / VTB-11 / VTB 23 Dutch TM-4 Generic coaster-250t. If you want address for SDD and Skytrex contact me off list. Chuck Duggie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Conan35@aol.com Subject: Model Expo Sale Model Expo, Inc. is having a 20% off sale this weekend, http://www.modelexpoinc.com, there's a couple dozen items that aren't covered but are marked down below that already. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume