Subject: SMML16/06/99VOL578 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 00:48:57 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Saratoga's airwings 2: Re: Important things about table saws 3: Re: West IPMS(USA) Nationals 4: Re: Carrier deck weathering 5: Re: Galveston questions 6: Re: Saratoga CV-3 Airwings 7: Yet more Hunley 8: Re: RN Horizontal Paint Scheme 9: Research, Brass, and IPMS 10: Ship of Mythology 11: Re: Graf Spee/ River Platte 12: Re: Graf Spee at River Plate 13: IPMS US Nats 2001 14: Re: Saratoga CV-3 Airwings 15: IPMS(USA) 2000 Nationals & Collins Class sub SINKEX 16: HMS Exeter post refit 17: Re: SARATOGA air wing 18: Re: GRAF SPEE 19: Re: Yamato, wives and Olympic 20: Whats new 21: Re: 688 Subs 22: HMS Exeter 23: CV-3 Aircraft 24: Pearl Harbor Project - Update 25: Re: PSM confessions -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: NSW Challenge Shield - this Saturday 19/06/99 2: WTB: 1/200 SMS Seydlitz 3: Re: Models to trade 4: GMM is closing its doors! 5: 2001 IPMS-USA National Convention -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Saratoga's airwings Michael According to Barrett Tilman, apart from the Essex's, Enterprise was the only other US fast carrier to carry SB2C's. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Important things about table saws There are a couple of things to consider when laying out money for a table saw. The first (I learned) is to get a saw that will be around from year to year. The suggestion about the Craftsman and Delta saws is a good one. Both companies have been making saws for many years so you know they will be there making their saws (nothing is permanent) for some time to come. The second (and most important) is buy a saw that uses generic size blades. The reason I'll finally have to ditch my Dremel saw is that no other blades made by anyone I could find work with the Dremel saw. Specialty model saws are nice, but if they require a special blade chances are good the line could be dropped in the future (like Dremel) and you'll be paying again. Food for thought. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: West IPMS(USA) Nationals >> The IPMS(USA) Nationals rotate on the basis of East - Middle America - West. West was last year (Santa Clara), East this year (Orlando), mid-America next year (Dallas), meaning West again in 2001 (but I don't know where). << The location for the US Nationals in the western region will be decided at the US Nationals in Orlando later next month. However, they are not required to make that decision at the US Nationals. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Carrier deck weathering Does anyone out there know who built the Casablanca class carrier on the Tom's Modelworks site? That's a FANTASTIC weathering job on that deck. I'll soon begin on my 1/350 Yorktown and I would like to know what techniques he used. Incidentally, I'll be doing a ship weathering seminar at the US Nats. The seminar schedule will soon change due to some folks dropping out so check it out often. I've been asked to add a seminar to help fill out the ship subjects. I hope to see you all there. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Galveston questions I just acquired a model of the Renwal USS Galveston kit at a club auction and I have some questions about the kit that I hope someone can answer. 1) What class of ship is this? 2) Are there plans available for this class of ship. This is a 1/500 scale kit that features Terrier missiles. An interesting looking ship. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: ironship@usit.net (Jon Warneke) Subject: Re: Saratoga CV-3 Airwings Hi Mike, >> My question is: I believe that the Big E is the only fleet carrier to take all of these airplanes into combat at one time or another. The only candidate for refuting this is the Sara. Did she ever have SB2C's and/or F4U's in any of her combat airwings? I really need to know this before Friday, so if anyone knows I'd really appreciate it. I don't need details or markings, just yea or nea. << Saratoga never carried either F4U's or SB2C's during her career. In early 1944 she was suborned to the British Eastern Fleet with CVG-12, consisting of F6F's, SBD's, and TBF's. When she returned in mid-1944, she was refitted to be a night carrier, and assigned CVG(N)-53, with F6F's and TBM's. She was then damaged off of Iwo Jima in Feb. 1945, and was out of the rest of the war. This is from memory, but I know the Sara's service history is covered in the book "Lexington class Aircraft Carriers" by Stern, and there is an extensive section in there about her air groups. If you can get the book before the weekend, it'll have the definitive answer. Jon Warneke Commander Series Models, Inc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Burl Burlingame / Pacific Monograph Subject: Yet more Hunley The torpedo rack on Hunley, as imagined by the TNT, are two simple U-shaped iron uprights attached to the rear of the submarine, maybe two feet behind the screw guard. The line reel, directly in front of the rack, sits athwart the hull, but, like I said, it looks woefully undersized for 150 feet of line. There doesn't seem to be a release mechanism -- the movie shows a crewman shimmying back on the wet hull, lifting the torpedo and placing it in the water very carefully. A line attached to a slipknot tied around the torpedo would probably have functioned as well. The TNT reconstruction also shows the forward cutwater not attached to the forward hatch tower, standing about two inches off. Does that seem correct to Hunley experts out there, y'all? Also, the hatch towers in the TNT Hunley have portholes on both sides, whereas my understanding of the NPS surveys show portholes only on the port side, and one facing forward at about 10 o'clock on the forward hatch tower. I'm tempted to cast it on both sides on the master model, and let the builder know in the instructions they can slice off the starboard portholes if they happen not to be there in real life. Comment? aloha kakou Burl Burlingame Pacific Monograph, 1124 Kahili Street, Kailua HI 96734 A historical interpretation company. Visit our web site at http://www.PacificHistory.com/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Joe Costanzo Subject: Re: RN Horizontal Paint Scheme Thanks for your help, Robert. BTW I was not referring to MS 22 in the litteral sense, but I was wondering if the brits used a similar philosphy on Nelson, as in painting everything horizontal (besides the deck) B-15 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Research, Brass, and IPMS Various topics: 1. Dead-End Research Slightly, off-topic, but several years ago I came into the possession of some of the records of a gentlemen who served in the USN from before WW1 through the early 30s. He was listed as serving on several ships throughout his career. Wanting to learn more of his background, if possible, I sent as much information as I could find to the National Personnel Records Center (NPRC) in St. Louis, MO. After several months of waiting I got back a form letter, basically stating that no records could be released without the written permission of the service member's next of kin. As if I'm about to go and hire a private detective to locate the relatives of somebody who’s probably been dead for 60 or 70 years! Damn those bureaucrats… 2. I will gladly cast another vote for generic 1/192 photoetch for the Lone Star kits. 3. Could somebody provide the dates of the 1999 US IPMS Nationals in Orlando, FL? I believe it's mid-July. Cheers, Mike L Alexandria, VA USA Hi Mike, According the Journal, the Orlando US Nats are on the 21st - 25th July. Regards, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Kurt Van Dahm Subject: Ship of Mythology Can anybody help a guy w/o net access who was refered to me from the Woodenboat Store? He is asking the following: I am looking for a model or plans for a model of the 50 oared ship in which Jason and his 40 Argonauts sailed to rescue the golden ram's fleece from Colchis. She was built by Argus the Thespian and called the ARGO. She featured an oracular beam fitted into her prow which is said to have been cut from Zeus's Oak at Dodona. Thanks Kurt Van Dahm Westmont, IL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Dave Judy Subject: Re: Graf Spee/ River Platte Filipe, In the reference I've seen, it appears that she dismantled this disguise between Nov. and Dec, as photos in Montevideo show no such structures. Also, I would think these structures would be dismantled in the expectation of battle, as I believe the disguise was only for mistaking her identity as a German surface raider. Any more opinions out there?? Dave Judy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Vincent McCullough Subject: Re: Graf Spee at River Plate Filipe I'm not sure, but I believe there was a SHORT peiece of film footage of the Graf Spee at the Plate on a 2 hour program on battleships on the Discovery Channel last weekend. It appears that this program will repeat on Sunday, June 20 at 6PM EDT. Unfortunately, I will be away and will not be able to watch it, so perhaps someone else on the list can watch/videotape it and check the answer for you. BTW, the program is quite good, with some excellent historical footage. The script is a little odd, focusing on life aboard an American battleship first (at least so it appeared; I missed the first 10-15 minutes) and then going back and talking about the history of the battleship. So if you're watching it, have patience, the segment on the Graf Spee is around halfway through the program. Vince McCullough Chantilly, Virginia -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Ed Grune Subject: IPMS US Nats 2001 From what I've heard from our region coordinator, there were not enough preliminary proposals for the 2001 Nationals from the western US, so the IPMS(USA) Board solicited bids from the recent unsuccessful bidders. I've heard that Seattle and Chicago are planning to present bids at Orlando next month and that Washington DC has declined to bid. Ed Mansfield, TX 35 miles from the 2000 IPMS(USA) Nats -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: Saratoga CV-3 Airwings Hi every one Concerning the USS SARATOGA air group she didn't carry the SB2C dive bomber or the F4U Corsair as a standard plane in her air group but she receive them when she served with the RANGER in the pacific during late 1944 as a training ship for night carrier operations. Now the Ranger carried the SB2C and the F4U CORSAIR in her group and SARATOGA received and transported them for war games. A very good book called USS SARATOGA CV-3 An illustrated history of the legendary Aircraft Carrier 1927-46 by John Fry, copyright 1996 Schiffer PublishingLtd. Atglen, Pa 19310. They have a number it's 1-610-5931777. The book's ISBN is 0-7643-0089-X -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Ed Grune Subject: IPMS(USA) 2000 Nationals & Collins Class sub SINKEX Hello to all My name is on the seminar & speakers committee list for the IPMS(USA) 2000 Nationals to be held in Dallas, TX. I haven't really begun lining up speakers and programs yet. I was planning on starting at the Nats in Orlando next month. If you have any desired topics and/or speakers, send me a note off-list. Also, I saw on tonights national news a clip of an Australian Collins class sub sinking a target ship. I didn't hear the make & mark of the torpedo which was used. Shane and/or others, do you have that information? I have on my wall a series of photos of an old DE being taken out by a MK48. There wasn't much left after the foamy water subsided. Ed Mansfield, TX (thats suburban Ft Worth/Dallas) Hi Ed, et al, Yes, one of the Collins class sunk the ex-HMAS Torrens, a Type 12 Leander DE yesterday. AFAIK, we still use the Mk.48 Mod 4 (ADCAP??) torpedo. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Robert & Rose Brown Subject: HMS Exeter post refit The old Frog 1/500 Exeter depicts the ship after her refit, with the twin 4", the pom-poms, and the tripods. While it may be risky to use a kit for reference, it at least matches the photos in Profile 13, and it was a nice kit. I have the kit instructions, a small colour profile and plan from the box, and the box art. If they will be helpful to anyone, contact me and I'll have them scanned and sent on...Rob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: SARATOGA air wing SARA combat squadrons VB-4 and VB-81 operated SB2Cs beginning in late 1944. She was originally scheduled to operate F4Us in 1943, but these went to the Marines when the plane's original landing gear problems manifested themselves. She did land them during training exercises in 1945, but her combat squadrons never operated them. Source: Fry, John. _USS SARATOGA CV-3: An Illustrated History of the Legendary Aircraft Carrier 1927-1946_. Atglen, Pennsylvania: Schiffer Publishing Ltd., 1996. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: GRAF SPEE She was not sporting the false turret and funnel at the time of her final battle, though she was wearing a false bow wave, and mottled camouflage on her superstructure and turrets. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Darren Scannell Subject: Re: Yamato, wives and Olympic >> I am not familair with this project, but one Japanese publisher has just put out a large book dealing with a 1\100 scale model of Akagi and will shortly put out one on Yamato. These are extremely well detailed models. Perhaps this might be the project mentioned and not a 1/10 scale which would be huge. << I'm not sure if this has been posted before, but check out this link for an old article about the model and group building her. http://www2.gol.com/users/billlise/jnp/models/yamatomod.html As for wives, mine has attempted to join me in model building several times, and although I appreciate her attempts she doesn't feel that she did well enough to continue. So now I pay her equal monies for everything I buy( which she usually spends on me or the kids anyway) and although she is supportive, I still have to listen to "I miss you, spend time with me", what, 10 min a day isn't enough?!?!? :-) A friend wants to build the Olympic in WWII troopship scheme and can only find port photos( I think- my memory is great when it works!), anybody know of a starboard photo out there? regards, Darren Scannell Bowmanville, Ontario -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "Robert Blackman" Subject: Whats new Hi, Not the best, like bass wood models, will have plans for the bird class WWI minesweepers in about a month. May try plank on side instead of solid wood. Never tried this before. Looking for plans of the USS Thomas Freeborn, a civil war sidewheel tugboat that fired the first offensive shot in the civil war. Sent an email to the Navy archives, doubt I get an answer. Any help will be appreiated. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: 688 Subs Ahhh, submarines!! I live for these posts...... >> I am new to this website and mailing list so i hope that I am going about this correctly. << You are! Welcome aboard!! >> I have a few questions about DML's Los Angeles(688) class sub model kits. I have 3 kits - 2 dallas vs. alfa and 1 USS hampton. They are all the same kit. I want to build all 3 versions of the 688 class. The instructions for these kits say to cut of the tail that is part of the sub body and to use a different one that is supplied. The one that is supplied has the horizontal fins at a swept back angle with no vertical fins on the end and has the round tube dispensers for the towed array sonar on the ends. The tail molded on the body is the tail with the straighter horizontal fins with a vertical fin on the ends. I thought that 688 class subs had a tail like the one that comes molded as part of the body. << This is easy. Find a trash can and throw out the USS Dallas kits. Yes, they ARE trash. Go buy two more Hampton kits, these are salvagable. The USS Hampton kit is made from the old Dallas mold. Saw or scribe off the stern on the kit and replace it with the new stern provided for all three versions of the 688, using putty to blend it in. Let me be clear on this: NO Los Angeles class submarine had vertical end plates on the stern planes!! Those are found only on the preceding Sturgeon class (SSN 637) and the Ohio (SSBN 726) class. There are two propellers with the kit, use the larger "clockwise" (as viewed from the rear) prop in all cases, part D3. The smaller propeller that turns in the "wrong" direction is due to the DML builder copying the props from "The Hunt for Red October" production models. Dave Merriman of the SubCommittee made those props for the movie subs, and to put his personal "signature" on the film, made them turn in the wrong direction (you'd have to know Dave...) Thus was born an entire species of wrong prop submarines! For the early, Flight 1 boats, you need to seal over the VLS tubes and putty them. There are no VLS tubes on the early boats up to SSN 718. All boats of Flight 1 have the fairwater planes on the sail. These are provided in the kit (it was, after all, the Dallas kit at one time). Now, here comes trouble: SSN 719 was the original VLS test boat. This boat AND THIS BOAT ONLY has the configuration of VLS tubes (3+3 down either side) found on the USS Hampton model. All other Flight 2 boats and 688I had the 4+2 arrangement (4 inboard, 2 outboard). Further, one of the 4 inboard tubes is where the "blank" inboard tube space is on the Hampton kit. So, make a tube there on each inboard side and seal over the most forward of the the outboard tubes on either side. I would leave the VLS tube hatches shut; having recently been onboard USS Toledo when the tubes were open for repairs, the hatch has a spherical pressure cap under the door that is part of the articulated door mechanism. The straight hatch provided is not realistic if left open. Again, the flight 2 boats (SSN 719-725 and SSN 750; numbers skipped for SSBNs) had the planes on the sail. (At this point, you are ready to buy the Blue Water Navy kit....). Now, for the so-called 688I, which Hampton is one of. Again, due the trick with the stern and the VLS tubes; this time, fill in the "dimples" on the sail for the Fairawater planes, as these are in the bow on the 688I boats. Use parts D7 & 8 for these; the kit still comes with vestigial bow planes for the Alfa (parts 20 & 21) that should not be used, from the time the Dallas was packaged with the Alfa (BTW, the Alfas had no bow planes). Many if not all 688I s also have anhedral fins set forward of the stern "cross" rudder and planes, similar to the Seawolf. These have countermeasure dispensers at their tips. You'll have to make these yourself. Some 688s may have received pumpjet test articles, and maybe, possibly some sort of anti-vortex device. No one's talking ..... >> The instructions say to paint the sub lower half red and the upper half black. Is the lower half of a sub on operational duty really painted red or is the sub all black? I know they come from the builder in red/black. << The 688s that I have seen in drydock at the New London Submarine base are red from the midpoint down of the hull, and black from midpoint up. The black is best done by mixing say 1 part white and 8-9 parts black. They get a sort of charcoal black to them from the water. When they are launched (and I got to watch the USS Hartford, SSN 768 slide at Electric Boat), the red is carried up to the waterline (take a look at launch photos) Operationally, the Navy has them black to half way down. >> I hope this posting makes sense. Its alot harder to type what your thinking then just saying it. << Yes, it did make a lot of sense. Starting out in submarine modelling several years back, I had the same questions. The answers can be hard to find at first. Again, Welcome aboard!! >> Thank You John Yeager << Your welcome! Tom Dougherty Visit the Submarine model group, the SubCommittee at: http://www.wolfsong.com/SubCommittee/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Michael Eisenstadt Subject: HMS Exeter Folks: Just a quick thanks for all those who responded to my HMS Exeter query. I've got some useful leads I'm now pursuing thanks to you all. Best wishes, Mike Eisenstadt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Marc Flake Subject: CV-3 Aircraft Michael: Saratoga did carry Corsairs and Helldivers, the newer ones, the F4Us and SB2Cs. Source: Fry's USS Saratoga, by Schiffer Marc Flake -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: Jeff Herne Subject: Pearl Harbor Project - Update The Pearl Harbor Project is well underway. We currently have 14 modelers, 2 resin maufacturers, and several researchers working with us, including the Pearl Harbor Historical Association, the National Park Service, the Sub Committee, and the Navy League. I am also VERY PLEASED to announce that Tom's Modelworks approached us and offered to donate all of the photoetched brass for this project. Thanks Tom! In addition, Snyder & Short Enterprises donated copies of their USN color chips to the modelers involved. Thanks John & Randy ! Mike Czibovic of Corsair Armada has donated not only kits, but he's building for us, and he's shuffled his production schedule to help us out. Thanks Mike! We have a long way to go, but we're making great progress. If you're interested in helping out, building, or donating materials, kits, or whatever, contact me and you'll get on the mailing list. Best, Jeff Herne -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Re: PSM confessions Hi Guys, Just to reassure you folks out there, that the only Rumble-signed issues of PSM that went out were "Sample" copies... (!).. well, except for the Aussie subs of course...... Best Regards, Caroline Carter White Ensign Models For a great build of FIVE WEM 1/700 HMS's Buttercup and Bluebell by Chris Drage Click here! http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/bunch/flowers.htm Well, now I know why our cats steer clear of the PSM collection I have ;-))). Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Shane Subject: NSW Challenge Shield - this Saturday 19/06/99 Hi gang, Yup ;-)), it's another reminder for the Challenge Shield this Saturday, which is being hosted by APMA. It's being held at the Auburn RSL Club on Northumberland St & doors open to the public at 10.30 & from 0900 for club members. The entry fee will be $2.00 & for club members entering the competition, there will be a charge of $1.00 per model entered. This is the annual NSW & ACT based modelling clubs annual get together. This year, we are allowing the public in to view the models & take advantage of the traders we'll have there. There will be talks throughout the day on various modelling topics. We are also encouraging all the clubs to have a display stand to promote their clubs to the general public. Lorna & I look forward to seeing any SMMLies that can attend, just look for the harried couple running around making sure that all runs smoothly. For any further info, see the APMA Website at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm Or email me at: mailto:sljenkins@tac.com.au Regards, Shane APMA VP http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm PS: As a consequence of the Shield, SMML will be posted out later than usual on Saturday. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: John Philip Downing Subject: WTB: 1/200 SMS Seydlitz I understand that there is a model of the German WWI battlecruiser Seydlitz in 1/200 (big-not 1/1200) scale. Made by Classic Warships, presumedly vacuform and resin. Does anyone out there have one they would like to part with? Will pay a good price. I have a 1/200 Y****o and a 1/192 Missouri, and would like to add this to my collection of big battlewagons. Thanks for your time. John Downing -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Dave Judy Subject: Re: Models to trade Keith, I have a Hood from Airfix, I'm interested in the N Jersey PE! Dave Judy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Loren Perry Subject: GMM is closing its doors! Ha! Gotcha. Actually, we're taking a short vacation until June 25th, so if anyone has any orders en route and due to arrive here in the interim, please hang in there until we get back and we'll have them all out within 48 hours of our return. FYI, we're going to Railfair '99 in Sacramento, CA, a huge celebration of North American trains and railroading history with all the functional main line steam locomotives on the continent due to attend in full steam. GOTTA see this! Besides, as many of you know, GMM also has a large range of photoetched model railroad products in both N and HO scales, so this qualifies as a business trip ;-) Some fellow ship modelers have already contacted me to say they're also attending, so we'll have some maritime discussions along the right-of-way. Our doors will reopen in ten days. Back soon! Loren Perry/GMM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Bob LaBouy Subject: 2001 IPMS-USA National Convention I saw a note asking about the next opportunity to return to the Pacific Northwest for a national convention and thought I should offer what I know. The Seattle IPMS Chapter has already presented its preliminary bid to host the 2001 National Convention and will be making its formal presentation in Orlando on Thursday evening, the 22nd of July. I am not attempting to preempt the discussion or decision making authority of the IPMS-USA Executive Board, but do want any interested modelers to know we have been working on this effort since mid year and are one of only two such preliminary bids we now know of, with the other bid coming from the Chicago area (chapter or group unknown). Our plans include among other opportunities, several specifically dedicated to those who build water oriented subjects. Initially, we expect and plan to have a visit aboard one of the three Nimitz class carriers which now call Puget Sound their home port, a visit to the museum in Bremerton along with the USS Turner Joy and hopefully back to Bangor for another Ohio class tour (such as we did in '92). We are also actively seeking any input from ship builders you may have to offer as to what you'd like or (especially) could offer in the way of seminar presentations/subjects. We welcome your input and help. I recognize that its almost a year and a half away, but the planning, preparation and management of a successful and rewarding national convention takes some time and effort. There is already a key group in Seattle of approximately 20 members who have undertaken this task and are working "full steam ahead" with the interest of all scale modelers in mind. Should you have any input, please comment to me directly or through letters or notes to the SMML. We (and I specifically) are very interested. Thanks, Bob LaBouy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume