Subject: SMML17/06/99VOL579 Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 00:02:12 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Saratoga Air Groups 2: King George V 3: RN 'H' Class Destroyer Info 4: ARGO 5: Re: Galveston questions 6: HMTS Olympic camouflage 7: Re: Galveston questions 8: Important Table Saw Info. 9: Re: 1/200 Seydlitz 10: Graf Spee 11: Arms and Armour press 12: Collins class & MK48 ADCAP 13: Graf Spee Camo 14: Re: Galveston 15: Re: Carrier deck weathering 16: Re: IPMS/USA Nationals... 17: Re: Graf Spee 18: USS Enterprise Model (CV6) 19: Sinking of battleship FUSO 20: New subscriber -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Model Show Announcement 2: Models for sale/trade 3: WTB: USS Pine Island or USS Salisbury Sound -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Satin, Michael N. (SHEP)" Subject: Saratoga Air Groups Thanks to everyone who replied! The consensus seems to be that she may have carried SB2Cs and F4Us at one time or another but probably not into action. They were either on board for training or transport. That's what I needed to know. Thanks again!! Michael -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: King George V Hi all I'm soon going to start my Tamiya model of KGV and there is a point I need clearing up. The forward HACS tower has a filled in oval shaped hole in it. Now I know on some of the KGV's this was actually open, is this the case with KGV c1945? None of the photos I'm able to find give any conclusive proof one way or the other. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Felix Bustelo Subject: RN 'H' Class Destroyer Info Hello Folks, I wanted to extend my thanks to all those SMMLers that responded to my query both through the SMML and off-line. As always, the SMML family has come through! I now know that the Airfix kit represents the kit more or less as commissioned/pre-war. I am hoping to build the model as she appeared the the First Battle of Narvik, where she sustained seven direct hits and was put out of action for about 2 months. She will be the subject of a build article that will appear on my website. I plan on utilizing some WEM PE sets in my build. I would like to confirm with anyone that may know - what was the Hotspur's fit at First Narvik? The kit has her with 4x1x4.7" - 2x4x0.5" machine guns - 2x4x21" torpedo tubes and 2 DC rails. Prior to that engagement, she had several refits: 12/16/37 - 1/7/38, August, 1939 (which was terminated due to the increase in tensions) 1/18/40 - 3/6/40 Again, any help will be most appreciated. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Tom Detweiler Subject: ARGO RE Kurt's question about the Argo-- the best model of her was probably from the old movie, Jason and the Argonauts, by George Pal, Wm. Scheer and Ray Harryhausen. There are probably some fanciful elements to the ship in the movie, but after all it IS mythology. Harryhausen was a stickler for historical accuracy so if there were any elements to the design based on the supposed time period of the voyage, his people would have researched and found it. This would be a very interesting project, indeed. Bravo, Kurt! Tom Detweiler in Rocklin, CA (Sunny and now in the upper 80's) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: louellet@uism.bu.edu Subject: Re: Galveston questions Rusty >> I just acquired a model of the Renwal USS Galveston kit at a club auction and I have some questions about the kit that I hope someone can answer. 1) What class of ship is this? << It is supposed to be an missile-upgraded Cleveland Class Light Cruiser. (See David Wells review below.) The following is a David wells review of the USS Galveston that is in RAJENDRA's list of SHIP KIT REVIEWS on Navis magazine: http://www.navismagazine.com/rajendra.htm Note, this is a free link at the Navis site. Galveston (USN CLG-3) [1/500] {S609} (Mod) FH OK. Okay, so it's inaccurate. In reality, it's more like an unmodified Cleveland than a modified Cleveland. With two more 6" turrets, you could make a reasonably good unmodified Cleveland out of it. The 6" guns are gorgeous, (guns elevate individually) and the Terrier batteries are a real treat. (Of course, the real Galveston had Talos missiles, so save those Terrier batteries for your Revell Long Beach. It needs them....) If you're trying to make a decent Galveston, you've got your work cut out for you. The two Terrier launchers should be replaced by a single Talos, (stolen from a Monogram Chicago/Columbus) the missile directors are completely missing, (again, steal from the Chicago/Columbus) the reload structure for the Talos launcher must be built from scratch. The 5" gun barrels are too long. (They make good 5"/54 mk 41s for Montana class BBs, though) The molded-into-the-deck solid plastic railing doesn't help at all. The hull is pretty bad below the waterline, but the plastic is thick enough to allow you to make some adjustments. And then, there's radars..... Still, I kind of like this kit. The sum of its parts is greater than the whole. Worthwhile if only for its parts. (DRW) >> 2) Are there plans available for this class of ship. This is a 1/500 scale kit that features Terrier missiles. An interesting looking ship. << Have you tried the usual places: Floating Drydock, and Taubman's? Larry Ouellette louellet@uism.bu.edu Volunteer, USS Salem (CA 139) U.S. Naval & Shipbuilding Museum Historic Quincy, Massachusetts http://www.uss-salem.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Duane Fowler Subject: HMTS Olympic camouflage Hello Darren, >> A friend wants to build the Olympic in WWII troopship scheme and can only find port photos( I think- my memory is great when it works!), anybody know of a starboard photo out there? << Since the Olympic was scrapped in 1935 perhaps a few bits of shredded tin foil would do. Seriously though, I assume you meant WWI. The Olympic had three different paint schemes during the war. In the first one, all the white portions of the ship were painted medium gray and the funnels were painted charcoal gray. A large red wooden plaque with the numbers 2618 in white on it. On either side of the fo'c'sle there was a large red wooden plaque with the numbers 267 in white. The second scheme was the first dazzle scheme. Photographs of both sides are in existence. It was mainly geometric lines in black, white, light blue, dark blue, red and yellow. There is a water color painting of the Olympic in port that shows the colors of the port bow. The third scheme was the second dazzle scheme. It was much more flowing than the first and less angular, but used many of the same colors. There are photographs of the port side and the starboard stern only. The one of the starboard stern is an aerial photographs that shows the decks, boat arrangements and some of the armament well (quite a bit of the decks are covered with troops). There is a hand colored version of this photo but it is very inaccurate both in color and in arrangement. When compared with the black and white photos, you can see that some areas with several shades of gray have all been colored the same and that some areas with the same shade of gray have received different colors. The black and white original is much more clear anyway. All three of the schemes had the unit number (2618) under the bridge, but only the first had the additional number (267) on the sides of the bow. And as an unabashed plug: I have a decal set available for the conversion of the Titanic model into the Britannic or Olympic in any war or peace time configuration. Best regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: drwells@hogpb.ho.att.com (David R Wells) Subject: Re: Galveston questions Rusty (SHIPMDLR@aol.com) wrote: >> I just acquired a model of the Renwal USS Galveston kit at a club auction and I have some questions about the kit that I hope someone can answer. 1) What class of ship is this? << Modified Cleveland class. Six Cleveland class CLs were updated to CLGs in the '50s: Galveston (CLG-3) Little Rock (CLG-4) Oklahoma City (CLG-5) Providence (CLG-6) Springfield (CLG-7) and Topeka (CLG-8). These ships received four different conversions. CLG-3 through 5 got Talos missiles, CLG-6 through 8 got Terriers. These missile conversions cost them their two aft 6" turrets. CLG-4 through 7 got enlarged bridges, which cost them one of their forward 6" turrets as well. I did a writeup on this for Rajen's List quite sometime back. Here's what I wrote: (Snipped by Shane, due to it appearing verbatim in the above post) >> 2) Are there plans available for this class of ship. This is a 1/500 scale kit that features Terrier missiles. An interesting looking ship. << I don't know about a full set of plans, but there's a pretty good line drawing of a modified Cleveland in Friedman's "U.S. Cruisers". Can't remember which one though. I'll be glad to trade you a Talos launcher/director set for your spare Terriers.... BTW: Yes, we're still working on a new version of Rajen's list. Meanwhile, the last update (1997) is at http://www.navismagazine.com/rajendra.htm David R. Wells "There seems to be something wrong | David R. Wells with our bloody ships today" | AT&T Middletown, NJ Adm. D. Beatty, May 31, 1916 | Email: drwells@hogpa.ho.att.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Kurt Van Dahm Subject: Important Table Saw Info. Rusty White said he might have to get rid of his Dremel table saw due to not being able to buy Dremel blades. Rusty, my first instinct was to e-mail you a low dollar offer for your saw. However, that would not be the proper thing to do as blades are very available for these saws. The Dremel saw is a great saw due to its ability to make a cut in thicker material due to it's 4" blade. I have a Preac saw with the larger table but the cut is limited to 1/4" - but there just isn't a more accurate saw than the Preac so I live with it's limits. I don't often need to cut anything thicker than 1/4" and then I make due with my 10" Craftsman saw that I have modified with balanced pulleys, multi-piece leather drive belt, zero clearance blade insert and a $100+ thin kerf 80 tooth carbide blade. Can cut a slice only .005 thick off 1" and 2" hardwoods with this saw and can start and stop the saw with a nickle balanced on the table. However, a Dremel saw would be nice for the in-between jobs. BTW this is a very good set-up for cutting plexiglas for cases. Micro-Mark sells several blades for the Dremel saw (page 7 of current catalog). Blades are also available from industrial supply companies and machinist's supply companies. They sell Jeweler's Metal-Slotting blades and screw slotting blades that fit this saw (and others) and work just fine. One company in the Chicago area is named McMaster-Carr. They have a 3,000 page catalog filled with all sorts of industrial supply stuff and have a web page at http://www.mcmaster.com You probably have a similar place near you. Take care, Kurt Van Dahm Westmont, IL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Ron and Louise Crawford Subject: Re: 1/200 Seydlitz John Downing inquired about a 1/200 Seydlitz. The only "commercial " model I can think of was done by Wiking Modellbau (Berlin) circa 1938-40. A surviving and highly modified example is at the Marine-Ehrenmal in Laboe, Germany. I have also seen a one-off which I recall was Seydlitz that was done on contract in Poland. Ron Crawford -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Lamar Jones Subject: Graf Spee Dudley Pope's book BATTLE OF THE RIVER PLATE gives an account of GS's false turret, which of course was a ruse ditched the moment matters got serious. Some photos are in the book of GS before and after destruction, as there are of Exeter, Achilles, and Ajax. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "foeth" Subject: Arms and Armour press Is there a website or a list of books from this publisher (although I heard it's a combination of publishers)? I'm trying to get a list of all their books (I want V.E. Tarants "KGV-class battleships", among others) EJ Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Ed Grune Subject: Collins class & MK48 ADCAP >> AFAIK, we still use the Mk.48 Mod 4 (ADCAP??) torpedo. Shane <<< The ADCAP is basically an entirely different beast than the good old MK48. It has digital electronics, better sonar, better propulsion (speed), and longer duration. There was talk in the USNI Proceedings a few years back that it really should have been called the MK49 - but was presented to Congress as a new mod to the Mk48. Doing a SINKEX (sink exercise) on a target hulk which is dead in the water is sort of like hunting for tethered game. It makes for a good photo opportunity, but it really isn't sporting.. Ed Mansfield, TX Well, considering the current media attention on the Collins Class, it nicely deflects them away from any perceived problem with the class. Shane - the pessimist - where it's bloody cold ;-(( -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: GrafSpee34@aol.com Subject: Graf Spee Camo Hi The Graf Spee's log entry of 3 December 1939 indicates that the dummy turret and funnel were removed on that day. This was not done in order to clear the ship for battle. Rather, the log explains that it was Kommandant Langsdorf's intent to spread confusion as to the number of KM battleships that were operating in the South West Atlantic. Where previous camoflage was intended to mask the Spee from Neutrals who may have otherwise reported her presence to the Allies, on 3 December it was decided to make a brief reappearance as a German ship, then disappear to another sector. The dummy stack and turret were set aside to be used again on the home journey that never took place. The Spee's Arado, no longer functional due to a cracked housing, did continue to wear its phony Argentine nationality markings on the fuselage, rudder and lower wing surfaces. Balkan crosses were left on the upper wing surfaces. Modelbuilders should note that the Spee's dummy funnel was a flat canvas-on-wood frame affair that was only effective when the ship was seen in profile. (The Polish "Morske" book, as usual, is flat out wrong where it shows a 3 dimensional dummy funnel on the Spee.) Note also that the dummy gun barrels were supported by a strut mounted on the vertical axis of the A turret. Spee's final camoflage scheme was 3 tones of grey. There are enough published photos to reconstruct the entire scheme on a model. Hope this helps David Krakow Graf Spee Nut -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Malcolm Batchelor Subject: Re: Galveston >> I just acquired a model of the Renwal USS Galveston kit at a club auction and I have some questions about the kit that I hope someone can answer. 1) What class of ship is this? 2) Are there plans available for this class of ship. This is a 1/500 scale kit that features Terrier missiles. An interesting looking ship. << Rusty, I'm going off of memory (we all know how dangerous that is), but, IIRC, the Galveston class CLG is a very modified Cleveland class CL from WW II. The USN rebuilt six I believe, 3 with the Terrier system, and the other 3 with the Tartar system (at the time they didn't know which system would work better, so they hedged their bets and went with both). Then, just to confuse things further, I believe 1 or 2 of each sub-type were also configured as Fleet Flagships. If you are interested, (and I remember to show up), I've got Friedmans US cruiser book at home, and can bring it to the Metro IPMS meeting next month. It has some line drawings and photos of both types of Galveston class CLGs and to those who like this, it is an interesting read overall. Stuart Batchelor Norman, OK, USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Carrier deck weathering Rusty: The CVE on Tom's site would have been built by Bert McDowell, aka "The Haze Gray Admiral." I think that PSM ran an article by Bert some time back on his flight deck weathering technique. He's one heck of a modeler, and a fine human being to boot! John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: IPMS/USA Nationals... ...are July 21-25, 1999. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys (Who will be there with Royal Navy Set 1) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: dhjonespsm@juno.com Subject: Re: Graf Spee Philipe Ramires writes: >> Did the german pocket-battleship have a false twin turret and a false funnel in the battle. Does somebody know anything about this. Photos it must be almost impossible but anything that proves or show a diagram of it. << It seems certain that the disguise of false turret and funnel was removed before the battle. The Graf Spee met her supply ship for the last time on December 6, 1939, at which time the famous photo of her disguise was taken. This photo shows the Spee coming alongside with false turret and frame of the dummy second funnel. Sources disagree on exact the time frame, but all are in agreement that the disguise was removed before the battle. Examples: In his book "Hitler's Battleships", Edwin Grey states that the disguise was dismantled at the same time as the last meeting with the supply ship Altmark on December 5-6) having been removed when they parted company at dawn on the 7th of December, 1939. In the Profile publication "KM Admiral Graf Spee/Pocket Battleship", author Gerhard Bidlingmaier states that the disguise was removed on the 11th. of December because of concerns that it would hinder the ship's combat effectiveness. Whichever date is correct, it would have been gone when the Graf Spee met the Exeter, Ajax, and Achilles on December 13th. Daniel Jones Plastic Ship Modeler magazine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Subject: USS Enterprise Model (CV6) Hi! I was recently surfing your web site and saw a 1/350 Scale model of the USS Enterprise (CV 6) by Dave Judy. I assume the manufacturer of the kit was BWN? How much? Who else makes the Enterprise in 1/350? Is there a web site for these folks? Any other details? Additionally, I'm building the 1/350 Tamiya kit of the Bismarck. They did not include any decals for the AR-196 aircraft. Been surfing the web for some time now looking for some after market stuff. Any suggestions? Thanks! Mike Hi Mike, Email Duane Fowler at mailto:dlfowler@mail.apple.com & he may be able to help you out. I also think GMM has 1/350 decals for the Tamiya Bismarck as well. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Jon Parshall Subject: Sinking of battleship FUSO For those interested, we recently posted a new article on the sinking of the battleship FUSO on the Imperial Japanese Navy Homepage. It's at: http://www.skypoint.com/members/jbp/atully06.htm In it, we use Japanese and U.S. primary sources to categorically refute Janusz Skulski's account of her demise put forward in his new (and otherwise excellent) book on FUSO, as well as some of the other revisionist accounts of the Battle of Leyte Gulf that have appeared recently. Enjoy! Jon Parshall Imperial Japanese Navy Homepage http://www.skypoint.com/members/jbp/kaigun.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Noel Hargrove Subject: New subscriber Does anybody make a USS YORKTOWN CVS-10 modern Essex class carrier with angled flightdeck in 1/350 scale or bigger??????????? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Robert Vancel Subject: Model Show Announcement Probably off topic but then again, you know me... The Secret City Modelers will be holding their 2nd Annual Secret Model Show on Saturday, October 16, 1999 from 9 AM - 3 PM. Model Entries are $5.00 each and $1.00 for each additional entry. Admission is good for the soul...er...I mean...$1.00 per person. The usual glut of doorprizes will be available as well. Dealer tables are $20.00 each and Dealer setup is from 7AM - 9AM (or later if you get there late). We're having a fun theme this year, Operation Bugout. Simply put, use the Revell Snap New VW Beetle as a basis and go nuts from there. Our special guest this year will be the very talented James Moody, illustrator for Accurate Miniatures and Minicraft models, as well as a lot of really cool stuff! Anyone wishing to make a donation to this worthy cause should contact Robert Vancel at (423) - 927 - 5226. Leave a message if you get the machine. Or write/send them to: Robert Vancel 3410 Solway Road Knoxville, TN 37931 Thanks Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: jpoutre@lehman.com (Joseph Poutre) Subject: Models for sale/trade Hello, For sale or trade: Lindberg 1/285 LST w/ motor. Slightly started, many pieces off the sprues, and the box has been shaken several times. All the parts are there, and in good shape. Also has a motor. $6 plus shipping. Monogram 1/48 Kingfisher, w/ PE set. $5 plus shipping I am looking for a 1/700 _long_ hull OHP class, preferably including decals for USS Thach, FFG-43, and an AFV 1/700 Knox class. Thanks! Joseph Poutre, aka The Mad Mathematician N2KOW Trustee and Co-Webmaster, Battleship New Jersey Historical Museum Society http://www.bb62museum.org/ Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Amham@aol.com Subject: WTB: USS Pine Island or USS Salisbury Sound DOES ANYBODY KNOW WHERE I CAN FIND A MODEL OF THE USS SALISBURY SOUND OR ITS SISTER SHIP THE USS PINE ISLAND I AM DESPERATE CAN SOMEONE HELP ME FIND THEM THANK YOU AMHAM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume