Subject: SMML23/06/99VOL585 Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:58:06 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Angled-deck Essexes 2: Re: Oklahoma City 3: Re: Kriegsmarine colours 4: Iron Duke 5: Koop and Schmolke Graf Spee's book 6: Re: Oklahoma City 7: Re: Ship Plans 8: Re: Oklahoma City. 9: Re: Ship Plans 10: Re: OKLAHOMA CITY 11: Hales Trophy 12: Re: JSP Gearing FRAM 13: Re: ship plans 14: Re: Oklahoma City 15: Re: Ship Plans 16: The Tool Man 17: Re: Ship Plans/Oklahoma City 18: Making Decals 19: Turrets of the Iron Duke 20: Oklahoma City/Little Rock 21: Camouflage Data 22: Underway Replenishment -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: jpoutre@lehman.com (Joseph Poutre) Subject: Angled-deck Essexes I'm surprised noone has mentioned the Revell 1/535 Essex SCB-125 model, issued variously as Lexington (CVT-16), Wasp (CVA-18), and Hornet (CVA-12). It's not the greatest model, but GMM makes a PE set for it, and Nautilus has announced an upgrade set for the 1972 Oriskany for late next year, so you can make a nice model out of it. And while it's out of production, there are plenty of copies out there - far more than the Jim Shirley 1/700 Oriskany. Best of luck with your project. Joe Poutre Joseph Poutre, aka The Mad Mathematician N2KOW Trustee and Co-Webmaster, Battleship New Jersey Historical Museum Society http://www.bb62museum.org/ Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: The Gonya Family Subject: Re: Oklahoma City >> This reminded me that Oklahoma City is preserved at Buffalo, NY, and photos may be ordered from Kurt at SeaPhoto. << Little Rock is in Buffalo, With USS.The Sullivans, and a Fleet Boat, Crocker I think. Sadly Oklahoma City was the Victim of a sinkex exercise this spring. Now 3400 fathoms down. Little Rock is now the last Cleveland. Wes Arcadia Oh. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "foeth" Subject: Re: Kriegsmarine colours There is no definite work on KM colours or sceme's, and if you want to depict a specific ship, you need to combine scources. There is a book on general camouflage and colours from Jung/Abendroth/Kelling, called Tarnanstriche und Antriche der Deutsche Kriegmarine (Camouflage and painting of the KM), which has some colour pics of certain surface units. No ready-to-eat scheme's though! There will be a paint chip released by John Snyder and the Paint Guys (It's not a sixties band) in December on KM colours, something to look forward too! I'd name a specific ship on the SMML and no doubt somebody has a scheme or some pictures lying around. Except if you want to do Tirpitz '44, that's a bit of a mystery. A warning though, most ships have controversial colours, and the colours Red (barbarossa), Yellow (bismarck), Blue (Cerberus) and Green (Montevideo) frequently surface in many publications, so I'd definitely post a message to check if that's correct, as it sometimes is not quite. The afore mentioned Yellow and Green have a history almost worthy of a publication themselves. In any case, do not trust the painting instructions in the kit. I think the best resource on KM colours is the SMML! Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Iron Duke Hi Matt R A Burt's 'Brittish Battleships of World War 1' has good drawings of Iron Duke in 1914. The turrets seem to be the standard British 13.5 inch turrets which did have overlapping plates. If you're interested drop me a line of list and I'll do copies for you. According to the book Iron Duke had 100 tons of armour added after Jutland, but this was deck armour and was concentrated over the magazines. If new armour had been added to the turret roofs I'm certain it would have been in the form of completely new roofs, not extra plates. I haven't seen the Airfix kit so can't comment on its accuracy or otherwise. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "foeth" Subject: Koop and Schmolke Graf Spee's book I read in the last message that the Graf Spee volume in the Koop-Schmolke series is about to be released in English. You might remember by previous post about their Bismarck book, being generally OK, but not fantastic. This volume is 2 or 3 times as thick, with many pictures and a history better than the previous volumes. I don't know why, but the larger the ship they describe, the thinner the books get! many of the pics can again be found on other volumes, but this issue offers a higher picture density. Even a camo scheme or two thrown in for good measure, although I cannot really comment on the accuracy. It does suffer from the 'lets throw in a unneccesary electrical scheme or page wasting chapter on the namegiver of the ship', but in general, the book offers far more text. In short, it has more to offer than the Bismarck book, plus the fact that books on these ships are not as generally available. There are a few low quality drawings in them, not enough to build a model from. But I did hear that quality drawings of the Spee are in development, so that should be settled seen. The book again shows you a 2 or 3 page 'preview' of their drawings of the ships general arrangement, for which you need an electromicroscope to read the fine print. Either print them, or don't! I tried to order one of these sets of drawings from the publisher once, and got into a small war, as they sent me the wrong drawings, and even tried to bill me 3 or 4 times after I sent them back. I'd combine the book with the Marine Arsenal issues for more pics. In this case, it might be a usefull book for your library. Most books on the subject are in German, and the English publications are rare. The redundacy in Bismarck books made me not appreciate that volume that much, but in the other cases, the books offer a lot if you don't have a KM collection at home (There's also a book on Scharnhorst's and the Hipper's, plus some others, albeit in german). Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Neklason" Subject: Re: Oklahoma City That's the USS Little Rock (CLG-4) that is in Buffalo. Her sister, the USS Oklahoma City (CLG-5) was sunk by a single torpedo from a South Korean submarine. She was the target ship in MTX '99, a multi-national naval training exercise off Guam. The torpedo detonated amidships at 1103 hrs, (Guam time) on March 25, 1999. The torpedo broke the OKC's back and she sank about 30 minutes later. She now rests in 6,000 feet of water. Glenn E. Neklason -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Bruce Burden Subject: Re: Ship Plans >> Does anyone have an address, phone # or address of ship plans section of the National Archives. I know for a fact that such a branch exists but I can't find it on the web. I found the National archives and the ship site in Maryland. Problem is that's as far as I got. It mostly had photos (nice site though). I want to start collecting plans for all classes of warships so I figured this would be the place. << Hi Rusty, The National Archives II site (which you visited) has the US Navy ship plans. I forget the records section, but it is under the BuShips section. Coast Guard vessels are under the Engineering Records for the Coast Guard. What I haven't found is an index of specific plans/photos in their collection. Best I have done is "here is the BuShips section, and here is what is under the BuShips section". Sigh. I am planning a visit to NatArcII after the IPMS/USA Nats, looking for Alaska, Carrituck, ABSD and Wind class plans, photos, etc. Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: NAVYDAZE@aol.com Subject: Re: Oklahoma City. Oklahoma is not a memorial she was in fact sunk as a target in live weapons tests. Mike Donegan NAVYDAZE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Vincent.McCullough@trw.com (Vincent McCullough) Subject: Re: Ship Plans Rusty, The Nautical Research Guild's "Sources for Ship Modelers" (http://www.naut-res-guild.org) has the following contact info on the Archives: U.S. National Archives (Archives II) 8601 Adelphi Road College Park, MD 20740-6001 (301) 713 6800 (General) 3rd Floor, Plans (301) 713 7040 (Ships Plans) 5th Floor, Photos (301) 713 6625 x234 (Photos) Many existing USN ships plans 1776-1949 as well as Imperial Japanese Navy and Post WWII Japanese Navy Plans Web Site link: http://www.nara.gov/ E-mail: mailto:inquire@nara.gov Vince McCullough NRG Webmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Rick Heinbaugh Subject: Re: OKLAHOMA CITY Mike Leonard wrote: >> This reminded me that Oklahoma City is preserved at Buffalo, NY, and photos may be ordered from Kurt at SeaPhoto. << Actually, the one at Buffalo is LITTLE ROCK, but that shouldn't put you off. LITLE ROCK & OK CITY were the only ones to share the configuration of Talos equipped flagship(single 6" turret). They were as identical as two ships can be after major reconstructions. Their radar suites both changed over the years, but the distinctive, big, flat-sided (good for modeling) superstructure was from the same plans. Rick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "J. Lamontagne" Subject: Hales Trophy Hi: I have become interested in the winners of the Hales (Blue Riband) Trophy and have a few questions for you: (1) Why have warships not been able to win the trophy? (2) Where can I obtain a ship model of recent winners after the Normandie, Queen Mary, and SS United States? (3) Why has the Destriero not won the trophy? thanks John L. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: JSP Gearing FRAM The JSP FRAM conversion kit is indeed well cast but it has a few problems you should be aware of. I built mine about 2 years back and found a few problems. 1) The metal splinter shielding on the sides does not meet deck 2 at the top. Deck 2 should be flush with the hull (and splinter shield) below. It's easy to fix, just beware. 2) The photo etch rails with the helopad supports falls way short of how much is needed to do the job. I finally added brass wire to represent the supports on both sides of mine. I used Flagship Models Knox Class frigate detail set to finish it out (shameless plug). All in all the model make a nice replica. As far as making an offer Jim Shirley's masters goes, I have tried for months to contact him. I have tried 5 phone calls, 4 faxes, and sent 4 letters to him explaining I would like to have the masters if he wished to sell them. No reply. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Dave Judy Subject: Re: ship plans Rusty, You will need to contact the cartography section at Nat. Archives, when I was last there, this section had the ship drawings. Dave Judy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: James Corley Subject: Re: Oklahoma City Rick H said of the Oklahoma City: >>> As the last of the CLGs in commission, and longtime Fleet flagship to boot, there should be lots of primary reference material around, reunion groups and such; and probably something in Oklahoma City itself. <<< >> This reminded me that Oklahoma City is preserved at Buffalo, NY, and photos may be ordered from Kurt at SeaPhoto. << I'm probably not the first, but you need to look about 250 mile east on the old interstate map to find the ship preserved at Buffalo....the Little Rock. Did anybody ever notice that the names of most of the CLGs came from 5 adjacent states?? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Ship Plans Rusty- I've been to National Archives II in College Park, MD. That is where the ship plans are (5th floor, IIRC). There is a somewaht limited selection, and some plans (including the ones I was after) are still classified. There is a way to contact them; I'll have to root around to find it. Tom -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Ed Grune Subject: The Tool Man With all of the message traffic regarding tools which has been on the list recently, let me interject a new web site, a source of small drill bit sets, tweezers, Dremel-like saw blades, and other miniature tools -- The Tool Man: http://web2.airmail.net/toolman/ I would also like to add that the owners, Billy and Rosemarie Carr, have been very helpful to the North Texas Chapter of IPMS in our Make-n-Take program as well as our club project to provide models and modeling supplies to the US troops stationed in Bosnia. Stop by their site and look over their selection of tools. They are also on the vendors list for the IPMS(USA) Nationals. Ed Mansfield, TX I am not associated with The Tool Man or the Carrs. I am a satified customer (and a fellow Texan [transplanted]) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Darren Scannell Subject: Re: Ship Plans/Oklahoma City Rusty; The Naval Historical Center(U.S. Navy History) FAQ gives this as the the address your looking for, Special Media Archives Services Division NWCS, National Archives and Records Administration 8601 Adelphi Road College Park, MD 20740-6001 telephone (301) 713-6885. Their collection includes the general plans and drawing of most ships stricken from the Naval Vessel Register. Requests should be limited to no more than three ships at any one time. The average cost for microfilm is $23.00 per reel. Charges for paper copies vary with the size of the original drawing. The old name for this Division was the Cartographic Branch. I called a couple of months ago and they were pretty helpful over the phone, they even called back to tell me that they didn't have what I was looking for, pretty nice. They do prefer written requests. I think they said they only handle pre 1947 or something like that. This reminded me that Oklahoma City is preserved at Buffalo, NY, and photos may be ordered from Kurt at SeaPhoto. Mike; I know others will pick up on this one, but the USS Little Rock CLG-4 is moored at Buffalo, great little museum. The O.C. was torped by a Korean sub a few months back during a joint weapons blunder(practice). Regards, Darren Scannell Bowmanville, Ontario - Where everyone is complaining 'bout hot weather 'cept me, It's not Humid! I Love IT! P.S. Sorry about the slip up on the Olympic, I didn't even notice I typed (2) I's after WW : ) P.P.S. Hi Shane, Having trouble counting past Vol 579? (2X 579's and no # on 582, must be into your fav drink again!) ; ) Who me!!!!!!!!!!!! never, hci, ihc chi ;-)) Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Philip Morgan" Subject: Making Decals Hi everyone! I must say, I am very impressed with the group and the way everyone helps each other. Having been a railway modeller (model railroader for those of you in the US), my experiences with them to date have been negative. Some of the railway modellers I have come across so far wouldn't throw a drowning man a buoy. Having wanted an SRN4 for 30 years now, I finally picked one up, even though I couldn't afford it, it's amazing how the pocket always seems to find some extra cash or credit in these once-in-a-lifetime situations! My request now is for help with making my own decals. I know this is a ship modeller's forum, but I'm hoping some of you may be able to help. I'm actually building a 1:100 scale 747-312 in Ansett Australia's Sydney 2000 scheme. Problem is, I have done all the artwork on my PC (Ansett logo, running chook logo etc) but need to transfer these to decal sheet. I own both a colour inkjet (Epson 800) and laser (HP 6L black only) and have tried a few clear decal films, but the ink just won't adhere. I have thought of printing on photo paper and feeding the decal sheet through a colour laser but I'm not sure how that will turn out. If I could get some gummed decal paper (ie, without the clear film) I may be able to feed that through the inkjet. Ideally, if I could find some way of transferring the images from a CD directly to decal film, this would be perfect. Any ideas? Thanks again for the help. Regards, Philip Morgan. PS: I noticed in the current (April 1999) issue of Australian Plastics Modeller an article on modelling the Academy Titanic as she now is. For those of you who have seen the article, please note that the holes referred to in the hull as being caused by the iceberg, they are actually caused by the hull buckling on impact with the ocean floor and are well above the real iceberg holes (most of which were no larger than a fist anyway). Speaking of the Titanic, does anyone know anything about the two full-size replicas currently under construction - one in Finland, the other in Miami I believe. Hi Philip, What you're after is an ALPS printer, to print your own decals. I don't know all that much about them, but I'm sure others will chime in. Regards, Shane - who's still annoyed he couldn't afford the SRN4 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Suvoroff@aol.com Subject: Turrets of the Iron Duke >> Airfix's kit has the armour plate overlaid over the turret tops. I've heard two conflicting theories about this: One, that extra armour plate was added to a number of ships (including presumably Iron Duke) after Jutland to prevent plunging fire entering the turrets. I've also heard that Iron Duke was originally built with the overlaid turret armour plates in place. However, numerous drawings I've seen of the early Iron Duke clearly show no overlaid armour plates on the turrets. << I am not entirely sure what you are talking about here. Burt, in _British Battleships of World War One_, does not mention any additional turret roof armor, nor have I read about it elsewhere. While some British ships got augmentations to their horizontal armor after Jutland, so far as I understand this was deck armor. If you are talking about the "stepped" appearance of the turret-top armor, this was a feature of British turrets starting with the Bellerophon through the end of WWI - I don't know what purpose it served, but it was present in the Iron Duke class from their completion. >> Also, there are three little bumps near the front of the turret tops in the kit. Some pictures I've seen of Iron Duke show three bumps, some two. What are the bumps for, and how many did Iron Duke actually have? << These are, I think, the sighting hoods, small armored cupolas for members of the turret crew to be able to look out of and sight the guns if the main fire control system broke down. The turrets on British battleships and battlecruisers seem to have invariably had three. Yours, James D. Gray -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: jakloek@kodak.com Subject: Oklahoma City/Little Rock There is a converted Cleveland at Buffalo, NY, as well as a Fletcher. The cruiser, though, is the Little Rock, while the Fletcher is The Sullivans. Jim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Sheridan, John" Subject: Camouflage Data SMML'rs, I want to create a web site that would contain information on Warship Camouflage. What I would like is for all of us to get our heads together and create a database reference listing ships and what paint schemes they used during the war. This site would be for ALL ships and not just USN ships. This would include Axis as well as Allies. The database will also include Submarines as well as Landing craft and supply ships. I am more than happy to provide the web space and create the pages. What I need is the data and what better place to find that data than right here. I would like to start with USN Battleships and work from there. Right now, I have complete schemes for: USS Washington 1941-1945 USS Massachusetts 1942-1947 USS South Dakota 1942-1946 USS Missouri 1944 - 1947 USS Arizona 1936-1941 Let's work on the rest! I think the discussions could take place right here on SMML so I will start with with Camouflage schemes for: USS North Carolina 1941-1945 USS Indiana 1942-1947 USS Alabama 1942-1947 USS Iowa 1943-1947 USS New Jersey 1943-1947 USS Wisconsin 1944-1947 We can also add: USS Alaska 1944-1947 USS Guam 1944-1947 I also need to know approx. dates when a scheme changed from one to the next. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: KelDQ@aol.com Subject: Underway Replenishment I'm in need of a couple decent pictures or diagrams of an underway replenishment (UNREP) operation. I have a few fuzzy photos in my meager reference library, but nothing good enough to effectively model it. The ship in particular I'm wanting to do is the modern New Jersey, but I suppose any good pic will help out. Thanks in advance to anyone who can point me in the right direction! Kelly Quirk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume