Subject: SMML07/07/99VOL599 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 00:24:34 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: PANAY 2: Re: Algérie book 3: Re: HMS Canopus 4: Painting 5: Re: U.S.S. Panay 6: Re: U.S.S. Panay 7: Re: USS PANAY 8: Re: U.S.S. Panay 9: Re: Painting 10: Re: Painting 11: Ships Wheels in 1:350 scale 12: Re: Submarine Props and Secrecy 13: Re: WWII BBs 14: Re: 1/700 BB's 15: Re: 1/700 BB's 16: Re: USS Panay 17: Re: HMS Canopus 18: Re: PANAY 19: Re: HMS CANOPUS 1899 20: Re: Painting 21: Help needed identifying a model 22: Re: Panay 23: Re: Panay Incident 24: USS Panay 25: Re: Canopus Class 1900 26: Re: DD Models 27: Re: Painting 28: Re: USS Panay colors 29: Re: Panay 30: USS Panay 31: Fate of the HMS Dragon 32: Paint strainers 33: The Sand Pebbles 34: Heller Admiral Hipper/Prinz Eugen Admiral's Bridge 35: IJN battleship "Kongo" 36: HMS Onslow 37: Building Display Cases -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Response to Mr. Balsama, Sr. 2: Revel Germany Flower class on Ebay 3: APMA meeting this Saturday -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: PANAY The Steve McQueen movie was "The Sand Pebbles", about a fictional US gunboat named SAN PABLO on the Yangtze. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Jean-Cyrille WAAG" Subject: Re: Algérie book Hello Art, The book on cruiser Algérie is coming out this month. Price is 285.00 french francs. You can order it at: http://www.marines-editions.com Hope this helps. Jean-Cyrille -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Re: HMS Canopus Hi Raynor R A Burt's British Battleships 1889-1904 has a detailed profile and plan of Canopus as fitted in 1900. It also has several wonderful photos of her in both Victorian and overall grey colour schemes. Contact me off list if you can't find a copy yourself. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Painting Hi Michael Up to you really, I personally prefer to paint the decks first, then all the fiddly little ventilators and ammo boxes and then the hull. With regards to filters use your wife's or girlfriend's old tights (NOTE OLD TIGHTS NOT NEW ONES!!!). I can't remember which way the scale goes, its measured in something called derniers. I think the higher the number the finer the mesh. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: aeufemia Subject: Re: U.S.S. Panay Alberto, The name of the picture was "The Sand Pebbles" from language distorsion-San Pueblo. This is one of my favorites and it's shown often on tv. There is a scene where they repaint the ship. I don't see it being shown this week, but with our shaky relations with China, it'll probably be coming up soon. Good luck! Al E -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Bill Schnakenberg Subject: Re: U.S.S. Panay >> Is there any color photo, besides the one at Warship, of the Smithsonian model on the Panay? Or any other color reference. I remember a film on the Panay incident, I believe with Steve McQueen, any one recalls the films Name? << I believe you are talking about the 1966 movie, "The Sand Pebbles" which is a fictional account of the South China Sea patrol during the 1930s and loosely based on the Panay incident. The ship in that movie was called the "USS San Pablo" and was built especially for the movie. It was just on TV the other day, BTW. Bill, PSP Terrorist - D'Lanok de Caresk chapter - Anti-Troll Unit 235 The USS Salem, CA-139. The World's only preserved Heavy Cruiser, Quincy, MASS. http://members.xoom.com/ltwes329/salem.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Kurt Van Dahm Subject: Re: USS PANAY The movie with Steve McQueen was "The Sandpebble" and while it was about the China Sailors and featured a US Gunboat, the movie was not in any way similar to the book by HD Perry though the time was the same and the crew was also trying to evacuate civilians. I just recently taped the movie (off HBO) as I too am impatiently awaiting the Commander Series kit. The movie has some good views of the boat and will be quite useful for detailing. Most video rental stores have this tape in the classics section. Kurt Van Dahm Westmont, IL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Kenneth H. Goldman" Subject: Re: U.S.S. Panay The movie Alberto is thinking about is THE SAND PEBBLES, starring Steve McQueen. It is not, however, about the PANAY INCIDENT, which occurred on 07 July 1937, when the Japanese sank the US gunboat during their invasion of China. The fictional SAN PABLO (her crew being the Sand Pebbles) was the centerpiece in a film that could have been more accurately titled VICTIMS OF DUTY. The crisis of the movie was the fighting between the Nationalists and the Reds. Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER http://www.wman.com/~khgold/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Kurt Van Dahm Subject: Re: Painting 1) As far as painting the hull first or the decks, I would recommend the hull be airbrushed first as the hull and superstructure are mostly uninterupted surfaces while the deck is very cluttered and masking off areas will be very difficult. It is easier to mask off the vertical surfaces of the superstructure and hull. The deck will probably have to be wholey or at least partially brush painted. 2) If your paint has chunks in it I would be very hesitant to use it. If you are determined to use it there are paint filters sold at auto paint stores that will filter out the chunks. Good airbrush paints should be very finely ground and chunks should not be a problem and I advise getting some new paint. Kurt Van Dahm Westmont, IL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Kenneth H. Goldman" Subject: Re: Painting >> 2) What are some simple ways to filter paint. My paint has a bunch of tiny chunks in it that clog the airbrush nozzle? << One word: "pantyhose". A better method, however, is to relegate that jar of paint to touch-ups with a brush and get some fresh paint for airbrushing. Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER http://www.wman.com/~khgold/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Vincent McCullough Subject: Ships Wheels in 1:350 scale I'm currently working on Iron Shipwright's 1:350 Liberty Ship model, and adding some details not found in the kit. One thing that I'me having trouble with is the ship's wheel. The Liberty has two of them what would be visible from the outside, one on the "monkey bridge" on top of the pilot house, and one at the stern atop the deck house supporting the 5" and 20 mm gun. Problem is, fabricating a ships wheel at 1:350 is a bear. It's just large enough that that you should be able to see some detail (e.g: spokes), and just small enough to be VERY difficult to make. Does anyone know of any photo etch sets that whould have a couple of ship's wheels in them that I could use? Or recommend an alternative approach? Thanks! Vince McCullough Chantilly, Virginia Where it's supposed to get over the 105 F mark today, with 97 percent humidity (ouch!). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Katz, Gene S" Subject: Re: Submarine Props and Secrecy Howdy When I was at Electric Boat in Groton, one of my tasks was to write and update the SIBs (Ship Information Books) for the 616, 627, and 640 SSBN Classes. The props in illustrations were often misrepresented to appear as a "standard prop", not the real McCoy even down to the number of and shape of the blades. Same as done to depth indicator illustrations, with the number of digits in the indicator dial face being deliberately misrepresented by a totally blank or whiteout space where the dial should be. And these were for crew orientation and training, not for public release. The tarps covering the props while the Boats were on the ways is very true. I also worked on the Sub Noise Reduction Program at the old DTMB (now Carderock) and recall that the prop was treated as a "sacred" object to be protected from inquiring minds, eyes, and ears. We tried to keep the Silent Service truly silent. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "FCR" Subject: Re: WWII BBs I must said that I have also a battleship fleet started and I would like to say some thing about that. First, about the battlecruiser HMS Hood, the Tamiya model is the one that is with the war configuration, that one that she was sunked with; the Italeri model (the one that I have) is the pre-war configuration (1935), still with the secondary 5'5 guns. Both Tamiya and Italeri HMS Hood are reasonable models. About the US Navy, I have the South Dakota and I think that it is a poor model and that really needs a full range of details and far as I know the other US battleships (from Fujimi, Tamiya, Aoshima, etc) have the same detail quality. There still is the Arizona from the Matchbox (no comments). For the Kriegsmarine, I have the Graf Spee but that is not quite a battleship (pocket-battleship), I must agree with the others that the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau are better type options. But if you would like to have the Spee I recommend the Fujimi's model, there aren't many differences from the Italeri model but it is a little bit better. You still have the Bismarck and the Tirpitz in the Tamiya (reasonable models). About the IJN just buy one of each class (Yamato; Mutsu; Ise; Fuso and Kongo). My model choice is to buy and build one of each class. This is my personnel choice to a battleship fleet (I prefer much more cruisers and DD's butŠ): - Royal Navy: Rodney, King George V, Renown, Revenge, Warspite, Vanguard and certainly Hood - US Navy: Arizona, Arkansas, Texas, Alaska and Tennessee - Kriegsmarine: Bismarck, Scharnhorst and Graf Spee - IJN: Yamato, Nagato, Hyuga, Yamashiro and Hiei - Reggia Marina: Vittorio Veneto and Conte di Cavour - Marine Nationale: Richelieu, Dunkerque, Provence and Courbet Happy Modeling Filipe Ramires -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: tom Subject: Re: 1/700 BB's >> Thanks to all for the input I'll look up the Nelson kit as opposed to the Hood. Mike Taylor made a suggestion; instead of sister ships to go with different classes: New Jersey and South Dakota, Bismarck and Graf Spee, Yamato and Kongo etc. Sounds like a cool project. A size study of the various classes. I already have the NJ, Yamato, and Graf Spee on the shelf waiting for P/E. << Doc: If interesting contrast is what you want consider the Aoshima Fuso/Yamashiro. These were very unusual looking ships with a tall pagoda style superstructure and 6 twin main gun turrets. I am currently building Fuso and while I would rate the kit at about a C+ with a little extra work I think it'll turn out OK. Photo etch is available. As for size studies illustrating the evolution of the battleship in different Navies, some neat series you could build are Hood/Rodney/King George (all excellent Tamiya kits) or Graf Spee/Sharnhorst/Bismark or Washington/South Dakota/New Jersey. Add in the French and Italian ships available in resin and it would really highlight the effects of different treaty limitations between the wars and the different solutions designers came up with on their limited "tonnage" budgets. Have fun. Tom Kremer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Lisa and Bill Wiseman Subject: Re: 1/700 BB's Yohan and Marc, I happen to have the Graf Spee on the shelf. I was planning to do a Scharnhorst as a stand alone piece as well. I'll just flip it around use the Scharnhorst for the collection and put the Spee on it's own. I hadn't thought about the Fuso, the superstructure is quite striking. It would be a nice contrast to the Yamato. Thanks guys for the input. Doc -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Suvoroff@aol.com Subject: Re: USS Panay Alberto; Steve McQueen WAS in a movie about a US Navy China gunboat, the movie being The Sand Pebbles; however, the movie is not about (even fictionalized) the attack on the Panay. Yours, James D. Gray -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Suvoroff@aol.com Subject: Re: HMS Canopus >> Greetings all, has anyone any idea of a source of basic plans i.e. elevation and plan view of this ship. << British Battleships 1889-1904 by R.A. Burt has as-fitted plans of the Canopus. As you requested, they are basic. Need a scan? Yours, James D. Gray -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: PulligS@aol.com Subject: Re: PANAY The movie was THE SAND PEBBLES a great movie at the time and it still holds up. It also was one of Candice Bergins [sp] 1st movies. It is available on tape. Good engine room shots, does anyone know where they were shot at. Again a good movie. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "J. London" Subject: Re: HMS CANOPUS 1899 Excellent plan and profile views will be found in BRITISH BATTLESHIPS 1889-1904 by R.A. Burt published by Naval Institute Press. Mike London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Mike Settle Subject: Re: Painting >> 1) Should I paint the hull or the decks first on my Arizona model? What are the pros and cons here? 2) What are some simple ways to filter paint. My paint has a bunch of tiny chunks in it that clog the airbrush nozzle. << 1) I paint them separately, but then I have only built plastic kits, not resin where they are one piece. I think I would look carefully at the model and go with which ever way would involve the least masking. 2) Strain it through a piece of old panty hose. Acquiring said panty hose can be half the fun, but be careful. It can also be dangerous, depending on where, when, and from whom you attempt to acquire them. ;-) For me it's easy. The wife throws old pairs away all the time. If you thin the paint a little first, it will go through the material a little easier. I'll cut out a piece a couple of inches square, push the center down into the bottle with my finger, and secure it around the outside of the bottle with a rubber band. This way, you don't need the third hand to try to hold everything. Mike Settle Hey Mike, D'ya reckon fishnets would work just as well, I'm sure I could lay my hands on some of these :->>. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Help needed identifying a model Dear Sir: I recently obtained an old model collection from the son of a deceased Phillie navy yard worker and in it was something unique. It is a 1/301 scale if it's a SUMNER class and it would be 1/306 scale if was a GEARING class. It uses decals for the Meredith DD-890 and has 4 twin 5 inch guns and a seaplane and catapult on it. Now granted it could be by the manufacturer or the guy's father because he wanted to experiment. So who is the manufacturer? Lindberg or Pyro? When was it made? All I know is that this model is 15 inches long and looks kinda crude in detail but would make a fine desk top model. Can any one help me with this. Craig -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: Re: Panay >> I remember a film on the Panay incident, I believe with Steve McQueen, any one recalls the films Name? << It was not Panay, it was something like San Pablo (I'd have to look it up to get it right) which was screwed up by the crew and gave the name to the book and movie, "Sand Pebbles". Cheers, Bob Santos -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Chris Evenden" Subject: Re: Panay Incident Alberto The movie with Steve McQueen portraying the Panay Incident was "The Sand Pebbles". Also starred Candice Bergan (?) and a whole bunch of other people. Chris E Where it's 7 degrees C but I'm still runnning in shorts and T's! Yeah, but you live in the Canberra Chris. They're all a bit strange down there ;-)) Shane - ducking for cover -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "John Rule" Subject: USS Panay I believe the movie about the Panay incident may have been The Sand Pebbles. John Rule ( At 35 Celsius baking up here in Toronto) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "John Rule" Subject: Re: Canopus Class 1900 A source for a drawing of the Canopus of 1900 is British Battleships 1889-1904 by R.A.Burt, which is an excellent reference work which is still available. Another much simpler drawing was published in Model Boats magazine several years in the Fighting Fleets series of 1:1200 drawings. Hope this helps. John Rule (Wishing he had bought the air conditioning instead of all these ship kits ------- perish the thought!) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: Popeye53@aol.com Subject: Re: DD Models Thanks to all those who responded to my query concerning C F Adams & F Sherman class models. Sorry for the delay in responding (I was off-line for about a week.) Bev Saylor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: Marc Flake Subject: Re: Painting Mike: I paint hull and superstructure first with an airbrush, then go back and use a regular brush to apply paint to the decks. I leave most of the small stuff (20mm, boats, gun directors) off until after I've finished painting the decks. Sometimes I have to go back and touch-up the bulkheads, then the decks again, but eventually, I get everything covered. I paint the small stuff separately (usually by airbrush) then superglue them in last. As far as the filtering, I was wondering the same thing. I've been spoiled on Gunze Sanyo paints, the best airbrush acrylics I've found. They've never clogged my airbrush. But when I made the switch to ships, I realized I'd probably never use them. I've bought alot of the Floquil U.S. Navy acrylics, but they have some major clots in them. I've ended up making a small cupfull and squirting in alot of Polly S thinner. Then I stir and stir and stir. So far this has worked. Marc Flake -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: Richard Schulenberg Subject: Re: USS Panay colors I did the master for the forthcoming 1/192 scale Panay model from Iron Shipwrights. An enormous amount of detailed information on the Panay was made available to both me and Ted Paris at Iron Shipwright by Art Herrick. I don't think there is anyone alive who is more knowledgeable about this ship than Art. Art has a passion for the Panay and the whole Yangtze Patrol and has become the historian for the Yangtze Patrol association. Art made available copies of his own exquisite drawings from his research, many details and private photos and lots of first person anecdotal information including all the color information you'll need. There was far more information available than I could incorporate in this small scale model. Ted has used as much of this information as practical in the instruction sheet for the model, so you shouldn't need anything else. The Smithsonian model is very nice, but Art did point out a few simplifications that were incorporated, so check photos. The IS model represents the ship at the time of her sinking, based on Art's research. The best Panay photos have appeared numerous times in Sea Classics, so they're not too hard to run down. Hope you like the kit. I saw the castings for most of the parts a while ago and they looked better than my masters. Can't wait to see it myself! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29) From: b29@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Panay The movie that Alberto is thinking of is "The Sand Pebbles" which had nothing to do with the PANAY, but rather tells of the fictional U.S. China gunboat SAN PABLO. Based upon the book of the same name, written by Richard McKenna, who himself served on Yangtze gunboats during the 1920's, the movie is set during the revolutionary battles of 1925-27 between the Kuomintang, the Communists and the warlords. The movie was only fair, but the book is a great read. Paul Jacobs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 30) From: YngtzPtrl1@aol.com Subject: USS Panay Hello, Regarding the USS Panay question, the movie with Steve McQueen was "The Sand Pebbles". However, it had nothing to do with the Panay Incident. The movie was set in 1926 China, while the Panay was bombed and sunk by the Japanese in 1937. The Panay was one of the "New Six" Yangtze River gunboats launched in 1927 and 1928. As to color pictures, I have seen a few articles on models of the Panay over the past four years (Scale Ship Modeler, Ships in Scale); however, the color schemes were not necessarily correct. If you have access to the Time-Life series of books on WWII, the China-Burma-India volume has a color photo of the USS Tutuila in 1941. This is the only color photograph of an actual gunboat that I have seen, but it should give you a good representation of what the Panay looked like. Hope this helps. Steve Bryson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 31) From: "John Noory" Subject: Fate of the HMS Dragon I was just flipping through Conway's "All the World's Fighting Ships 1922-46" and noticed a mention on p. 11 that the HMS Dragon "was damaged by a Marder". Could that concievably be a reference to the German self-propelled gun Marder? It seems far-fetched, but I suppose it could happen. Does anyone have other info about this? Thanks, John Noory -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 32) From: Tom Eisenhour Subject: Paint strainers Mike Connelley wrote: >> 2) What are some simple ways to filter paint. My paint has a bunch of tiny chunks in it that clog the airbrush nozzle. << I've heard that pantyhose makes an excellent paint strainer but I've never tried it. Good luck, Lumpy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 33) From: Ed Grune Subject: The Sand Pebbles Alberto: I believe the film to which you refer is The Sand Pebbles. It is not about the Panay, but is a fictional account of a river gunboat, the San Pablo. Yes it did star Steve McQueen. Ed Mansfield, TX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 34) From: Tirpitz70@webtv.net (Rich Hahn) Subject: Heller Admiral Hipper/Prinz Eugen Admiral's Bridge Hello, I am making a Heller 1/400 Admiral Hipper into a Blucher, and have run into a problem. The admiral's bridge is not covered, with the characteristic 11 windows all around. Anyone have a good way to fabricate this? I know for most of Blucher's short career the bridge was not covered, but for the Wesurubung operation it was( page 42-43 Whitley's German Cruisers of WW2). Also, my Prinz Eugen also is with the non -covered Admiral's bridge. I appreciate any suggestions. Thanks! Rich Hahn Bensalem, PA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 35) From: "VIDEOPAL S.L." Subject: IJN battleship "Kongo" Hello Two questions about IJN battleship "Kongo" 1 At 1994, There was any 25mm twin antiaircraft mounts on this ship? 2 what's Recommended bibliography about the "Kongo" class? Greets Francisco Ronco -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 36) From: Shane Subject: HMS Onslow Hi gang, Just a quick question regarding HMS Onslow. Seeing as she was the "Leader" of the O class, was she longer in length from the others in her class like other Flotilla Leaders of earlier classes. I've checked my very limited refs on RN DDs(which include the Alan Raven O-Z Class DD Ensign(?)) & can't either confirm or deny this theory. Shane - where it's bloody cold. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 37) From: Felix Bustelo Subject: Building Display Cases Hello all, I wish to convey my thanks again to all of you that replied to my question. All of the suggestions were excellent and they have given me various options on how to approach this project. I will be trying my hand at a couple of cases in the coming weeks, so I will let you know how I fare. In my capacity as a webmaster, I would like to post all of the responses I received on a page on International Maritime Modeling. I will give each and every person credit for the response that I use but I will not publish your emails. I will mention that the response came from SMML, so that modelers that visit my site can see that quality of the information that they can get from the forum. Perhaps this will recruit some new members. So, if any one objects - and that includes you Shane, as SMML master, please let me know at this email address: mailto:imm_web_master@yahoo.com and I will not use your response - or if Shane objects, I won't do this at all. Thanks, Felix Bustelo International Maritime Modeling http://members.tripod.com/~Febus65/imm.htm Hi Felix, Gee thanks, just ask for permission in front of everyone, so I can't say no ;-))). Seriously, I have no real objection to posting the replies to that thread on IMM. If it gets more subscribers, even better. My only advice would be to contact all the posters who's replies you want to use personally. That way you can be sure of using their names, otherwise you're skirting close to "permission by omission" which is IMHO, not the way to go. Regards, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Felix Bustelo Subject: Response to Mr. Balsama, Sr. Dear Sir, The contest that you refered to is actually a vote that was taken to select subjects for Atlantic Models to develop and sell a 1/600 scale resin ship model kit. The largest number of votes received was for a model on the SS Normandie, with the HMS Dido coming in second. Just because the Normandie came in number 1, WILL NOT guarantee that Atlantic Models will create a kit of this ship. It will require 10 pre-orders in the form of a deposit or a credit card number to White Ensign Models (exclusive retailer for Atlantic Models products). If you are interested in seeing a Normandie kit on the market, then place a pre-order with WEM (website link is below). http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/xdt22/index.htm Please refer to SMML Volume 594 dated 2/7/99 (or 7/2/99 in the US notation) item #4 under TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD for a very important posting from Peter Hall or Atlantic Models regarding the Normandie project. I am sorry if there has been some confusion about this entire process. Regards, Felix Bustelo -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Revel Germany Flower class on Ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=126623878 The heading says it all:1/72 REV. OF GERM. USS SAUCY OR HMCS SNOWBERRY Item# 126623878 Now at $125 Auction ends 7-8-99 20:40 PDT Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Shane Subject: APMA meeting this Saturday Hi gang, Just a quick reminder to those in or visiting Sydney & it's environs, that this Saturday is the monthly meeting of the Australian Plastic Modellers Assoc. All visitors are very welcome. For more info just pop over to the APMA page at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm We hope to see you then. Regards. Shane APMA VP -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume