Subject: SMML27/07/99VOL619
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 02:23:23 +1000

shipmodels@tac.com.au

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MODELLERS INDEX

1: HMCS Prince Robert
2: Re: First ship model
3: Re: USS Alaska anyone?
4: Re: Brown Study
5: Re: Accommodation Ladder Davits
6: The Book
7: USS North Carolina or USS Washington
8: FRAM Gearings
9: Re: First Ship Kit 
10: WWII Italian colors
11: Re: first model
12: David Baker's remarks.
13: Re: First Ship
14: Re: ST LOUIS Latticework Structure
15: Re: Victory Ship Colors
16: Classic Warships ALASKA
17: Re: WW2 Merchant Ships
18: Re: CV-6
19: Re: 1/700 FRAM GEARINGs
20: Re: 1999 IPMS Nationals
21: Re: Accommodation Ladder Davits
22: First Model
23: First Model Kit
24: AD NOT SAME AS AR
25: Re: Jim Shirley Gearing kit info.
26: Re: First Ship Model
27: Snyder & Short Paint Chips
28: First ship model
29: Re: Ship in Philadelphia
30: Tigerfish?? NOT!
31: Foeths Vacation Report
32: Silent Subs
33: Re: First Model/USS Des Moines/US Nationals 
34: Re: Nationals ship report
35: Re: HMCS Prince Robert query
36: deck tone for Sheffield, circa 1940-41
37: Squadron 99 catalogue
38: Re: Lionfish/Drum
39: First Ship Model
40: Re: HMS Warspite Camouflage 1941
41: Questions on ballast

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TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX

1: 1/600 Scale Normandie 
2: USS Mission Capistrano

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MODELLERS

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1)
From: "Ron Hillsden, Victoria BC Canada" <ron-hillsden@home.com>
Subject: HMCS Prince Robert

 The Maritime Museum in Victoria - http://mmbc.bc.ca/ - has DWG's from Yarrows Shipyards when Robert was a civilian and Historical Archives Canada also has DWG's. If they are from the old RCN collection, they will show her after she was conscripted. Both will have photos. There are numerous books with pictures of her during the war, but I believe there was a book specifically on the Princes (Tom Dean, can you help?).

 You may also want to browse the maritime museums in Canada. Manitoba and Alberta have good presence on the web.

 Ron Hillsden
 Victoria BC Canada
 My boat club: http://members.home.net/vmss/
 Modelmakers Flags: http://members.home.net/ron-hillsden/
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2)
From: modeleral@up-link.net (Al Superczynski)
Subject: Re: First ship model

 Mine was the Revell FDR. My dad got it for my 10th birthday & I had that sucker finished the next day!  

 I managed to miss out on the SSP reissue somehow & would still like to pick one up in trade or at a reasonable price........     ;-p

 Al
 http://www.up-link.net/~modeleral
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3)
From: John Sheridan <jrsheridan@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: USS Alaska anyone?

>> I'm just wondering if anyone else that preordered the Classic Warship USS Alaska 1/350th kit have received theirs yet? I'm sure Steve's been busy at the IPMS US Nationals, selling as many as he can. I had just hoped that he would have sent out kits to those who preordered them, some many months ago, first. <<

>> Let me know when someone gets one. I can't wait...<<

 I had to fly down to the Nats to get mine. <grin>.
 
 Seriously, This is THE kit to have. The photoetch frets are the best that I have ever seen. Steve even went so far to include the 40mm ready racks inside the gun tubs! It is a beautiful model and very well made. 

 John Sheridan 
 What I do to Spammers: http://microscale.com/images/N2.jpg
 I am not a Member of the Lumber Cartel (tinlc) and I am not Unit #631 
 Fight Spam!  Join CAUCE!  http://www.cauce.org
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4)
From: "Bob Pearson" <bpearson@kaien.com>
Subject: Re: BROWN STUDY

>>  Re Mr. Langtree's zing in yesterday's SMML, may I only say that, on the basis of nearly over five decades of study of the field (during 3.3 of which it earned me a very good living) that while British warships have long had a most pleasing aesthetic aura, at no time during this century (and seldom for over a century prior) was British warship design ahead of USN practice and execution in any feature essential to the conduct of combatant operations. <<

 Ah, but there are advantages to both countries designs .... RN has rum, USN has ice cream,. ..  RN had armoured flight decks.. USN had damaged decks . . .. hey, that is an RN advantage .. true they had less aircraft. . but if you can't operate them the USN advantage in numbers is moot.
 
 Regards,
 Bob Pearson   
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5)
From: Rick Heinbaugh <heinbau@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Accommodation Ladder Davits

 Felix,

 I can't find anything specifically on the IRON DUKE and her class, but present-day practice is to have a socket in the deck to mount the davits when they are needed. The J-davits themselves usually are mounted on stowage brackets on the side of the superstructure nearby.

 The WARSPITE Anatomy of the Ship book shows some ammunition handling action, using similarly temporary mounted davits. Also in the photo is a socket for a different J-davit. The socket by itself appears to be a ~8" high section of pipe, mounted to the deck. Considering that the next page shows regular bitts and they look about 10 times the size of the J-davit socket, I'd suggest that the empty socket should not be modeled on 1/600 scale.

 I couldn't find an underway photo of the after section of the ship, but if you can, it might show exactly where the davits were stowed when not in use. 

 Good luck,
 Rick
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6)
From: "chenyangzhang" <chenyangzhang@email.msn.com>
Subject: The Book

 Hi Dave

 I thought you were communicating direct. As I explained privately to you the Royal Navy had the edge design wise because their ships were actually tested in battle conditions. This kind of experience the USN didn't have and so weren't able to learn from their failures. The situation changed after the war, of course, but Brown's book is correct for the period it covers.

 To try to be polite and not offend you, your years of experience are only useful if you use them properly rather than falling into the trap of relying on the 'wisdom of ages'. It also doesn't give you a monopoly on the truth and neither does it entitle you to automatic special consideration. A couple of days I posted some information about HMS Warspite which I thought was right. Just today I've found that I might be wrong. I don't mind, this is why I enjoy SMML list because you can learn and others will have information that you don't.

 For anyone who is interested in the development of British Battleships Brown's book is worth getting. Whether you agree with me or Dave on Brown's comments on the USN and its design practice is up to you. But do remember Dave is coming from a very patriotic position and so cannot be considered the best judge.

 Chris Langtree

 Beijing is great for pirate models and if your lucky you may be able to find genuine items as well. There is a model shop near the new CTV building
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7)
From: "David Zimmerman" <daczimmerman@email.msn.com>
Subject: Renwal USS North Carolina or USS Washington

 A friend is looking to purchase a Renwal kit of the USS North Carolina or USS Washington. If anyone knows where he can find one of these kits please let me kow and I will forward the info to him. He in turn will be back in touch with you.

 Thanks for all the help I know you will be

 David Zimmerman
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8)
From: "Edward F Grune" <efgrune@hti.com>
Subject: FRAM Gearings

 Doc:

 Check the JAG Collective for their Gearing. Its at FRAM-2. I checked the one I picked up at the IPMS/US Nats & it has acceptable surface detail (IMO). The kit is resin & brass, but the brass doesn't include the railings. If you need the rails, you should be able to use almost any set.

 I FRAMmed an Altbatross Gearing -- it was a chore. If you have to do a bunch of them - this might be the way to go.

 Ed
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9)
From: "Fernando, Yohan" <YOHAN.FERNANDO@Bain.com>
Subject: Re: First Ship Kit 

 A bit of an old subject by now it seems, but here goes:

 My first ship was a Tirpitz kit. I don't remember who made it (Revell maybe) or the scale (somewhere between 1/350 and 1/700), but I got two of the same kits for my 11th birthday. They were both built in a single morning, neither ever painted, and ended up being blown to bits by bundles of firecrackers. I always wanted to get more ship models and remember staring lovingly at all those 1/700 ships in the Tamiya catalog, but somehow for 12 years, other interests got in the way and not a single ship model came across by bench (although plenty of other models did). 

 Then, about 4 years ago (to the week incidentally), I watched the Battlefield program on the Battle of Midway on a whim, and for the next few days, all I could think about were those four doomed Japanese carriers. I was getting sick of Sci Fi modelling at the time and suddenly remembered all those little ships in the Tamiya catalog. So off to the local hobby store I went and picked up the only waterline kit they had- the Junyo. I remember how I felt I was entering a whole new world as I put that kit together and brought it to life with the Zekes and Kates warming up on deck. A week or so later, I was back to the store and picked up the Yamato. Then I was at the local library, checking out every WWII naval book on the shelf. And so a trend was started... I learned of the other WL companies (Hasegawa, Aoshima, Fujimi), then of resin kits, and now am up to 104 vessels of all types and nationalities in my collection. If its 1/700 and served in WWII, I want to build it. Yet the Junyo for being such an unspectacular ship in real life, still holds a dear place in my heart (and in my display case.)

 Yohan Fernando
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10)
From: "Fernando, Yohan" <YOHAN.FERNANDO@Bain.com>
Subject: WWII Italian colors

 Hi Everybody,

 I've started to expand my 1/700 collection to include Italian ships and have the BB Conte di Cavour and the DD Freccia on the way in them mail as I'm writing this. Does anyone know of any good references for painting these ships? Camo patterns are not the issue- it's more the colors they used and how they compare to other nationalities' colors for example. I think Snyder & Short may be planning a set of paint chips, but I'm hoping to find some good references before that. 

 Any help would be appreciated!

 Yohan Fernando
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11)
From: "Reynaga, Tim@EDD" <TReynaga@edd.ca.gov>
Subject: Re: first model

 Mistress Lorna,

 My compliments on your adept handling of SMML in Shane's absence. Your idea to request modelers "first model" stories was inspired-it's been loads of fun reading about the early efforts of other modelers. As I read each story I am reminded of the common pleasure we ship modelers derive from our often solitary hobby.

 I remember my own first effort very well. It was 1969 and I and was seduced by an ad with a postage free card in TV Guide for a model of the Apollo 11 lunar lander for 10 cents. Without my parent's knowledge, I taped a dime to it and dropped it in the mailbox. (Being five years old I didn't comprehend that it was a loss leader for a set of space exploration books which arrived, with a bill, a few weeks later!) I still remember my excitement (and my mother's surprise) when a package arrived in the mail with my name on it. Tearing into it, I was confronted with an impossible mass of white plastic parts which in no way resembled a lunar lander. I couldn't recognize anything. Then I saw a couple of two-part human forms...the astronauts!   I was never able to make anything recognizable from that kit except those figures, but it didn't matter. I was hooked. 

 Tim Reynaga  
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12)
From: "Phil Gollin" <postmaster@pgollin.u-net.com>
Subject: David Baker's remarks.

 Without trying to stir up any more controversy I would please remind Mr Baker that there is a great difference between the basis of technical analysis between the British and Americans. The British have always had a tendency to keep on critising even good designs because the "end-user" demanded the best. The Americans have a much more production biased system.
  
 One need only look at either nations views on the other's designs and practices to see the difference. If you read a Royal Navy review on a lend-lease or All-American designs you would wonder how it could be let out of a harbour, whereas reading the views of American officers regarding the same ships would have you believe nothing better had ever set to sea. This
practice is as old as the hills and should be taken into account when reading reports from either nation. The best way of appreciating the strengths of either nation's designs is by seeing (given the restraints of time and money) which ones were adopted by the other.
  
 It is unfortunate that David Baker is more willing to throw insults than read and learn.
  
 The best quote I've ever had on the subject comes from the Osprey book "Campaign Series 1 - Normandy 1944", by Stephen Badsey;
  
 "..... If the Americans had been as good as they said they were, the British as bad as they said they were, and the Germans as good as everyone said they were, the Battle of Normandy could not have been fought as it was."  
  
 Phil Gollin
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13)
From: John Snyder <John_Snyder@macnexus.org>
Subject: Re: First Ship

 Egad--5 days away from SMML, "cold turkey." I still have the shakes!  ;^)

 It's difficult to remember that far back (as I'm sure Caroline will remind me), but it has to have been either the Revell MISSOURI or the Revell THE SULLIVANS, in the mid-1950s.

 John Snyder
 Snyder & Short Enterprises
 The Paint Guys
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14)
From: John Snyder <John_Snyder@macnexus.org>
Subject: Re: ST LOUIS Latticework Structure

 Two solutions:

 Get the appropriate photoetch for US cruisers from Tom's Modelworks or Gold Medal Models and replace the resin part (you'll have to use the resin searchlight tower platform on top of the photoetch); or,

 Use the resin part, and paint the recessed areas between the latticework in black.

 John Snyder
 Snyder & Short Enterprises
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15)
From: John Snyder <John_Snyder@macnexus.org>
Subject: Re: Victory Ship Colors

 Victory ships wore the same range of camo colors as the rest of the fleet train. I have a copy of the video "Hannibal Victory", transferred from the film of the same name and shot in color during the war. It basically follows the ship from commissioning out to the Okinawa campaign. HANNIBAL VICTORY is shown very clearly painted in MS21, overall Navy Blue 5-N. So, just like doing warships, if you're going to depict a particular ship, you're going to have to do a little research to determine what she wore.

 John Snyder
 Snyder & Short Enterprises
 The Paint Guys
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16)
From: John Snyder <John_Snyder@macnexus.org>
Subject: Classic Warships ALASKA

 I've got mine--but then, I was with Steve (and Mike Czibovic) at the Nationals.... The ALASKA kit is incredibly exquisite, and like WEM's SHEFFIELD last year, will set an industry standard. Be ready for an intricate build: the kit has over 900 parts, including the photoetch. Steve
will be home in a couple of days (he and Mike are driving--I flew), so should be shipping orders shortly thereafter.

 John Snyder
 Snyder & Short Enterprises
 The Paint Guys
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17)
From: John Snyder <John_Snyder@macnexus.org>
Subject: Re: WW2 Merchant Ships

 Al:

 You can find Liberty ships in 1/700 from Skywave (plastic) and Tom's Modelworks (resin). There is also a large scale Liberty (1/192), from Bluejacket Shipcrafters (mixed media).

 Loose Cannon Productions has the T-2 in both Navy and civilian fit (in resin); both are very nice models. There is also the old Revell plastic T-2 kit, which needs some accurizing.

 John Snyder
 Snyder & Short Enterprises
 The Paint Guys
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18)
From: John Snyder <John_Snyder@macnexus.org>
Subject: Re: CV-6

>> BTW I still have the model I changed up - I messed up the paint job so I quit trying to salvage it <<

 Mike:

 With that much work into accurizing the kit, you really ought to go back to it. I originally finished mine straight out of the box, no paint. I later went back, accurized, added the photoetch--including to the air group--and painted her up in MS32/4Ab. That's the model that took 3rd at the Nationals. It's certainly doing things the hard way, but it can be done. Get some Polly S paint remover, find a container large enough to submerge the model (or maybe do half at a time), get the paint off and refinish it. And then work with Mike Eisenstadt to produce the definitive article on accurizing the kit!

 John Snyder
 Snyder & Short Enterprises
 The Paint Guys
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19)
From: John Snyder <John_Snyder@macnexus.org>
Subject: Re: 1/700 FRAM GEARINGs

 Doc:

 Just back from the Nationals, where a new company was in attendance. JAG Collective was there with their masters. They'll be doing mostly modern USN, and had the master for a FRAM II GEARING there. Their work is superb, and I'd say it's well worth waiting for; it will make earlier kits pale by comparison. I haven't yet unpacked, but will post their projected list of
models and prices when I do. You should have seen their almost-complete LONG BEACH (CGN-9) in her 1960s fit! Along that line, they stated they'll likely be doing BAINBRIDGE (sign me up right now!) and ENTERPRISE, both in 1960s fit. Can you say "Nuclear Task Force One"?

 John Snyder
 Snyder & Short Enterprises
 The Paint Guys
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20)
From: John Snyder <John_Snyder@macnexus.org>
Subject: Re: 1999 IPMS Nationals

 Art, et al:

 In brief, best ship was a wonderfully-detailed USS TARAWA. It nearly took Judge's Best of Show as well (68 votes to 62), so we almost had a ship as Best of Show two years in a row. It did take the People's Choice award, so that's almost as good.

 I'll try to get a more complete post off later.

 John Snyder
 Snyder & Short Enterprises
 The Paint Guys
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21)
From: John Snyder <John_Snyder@macnexus.org>
Subject: Re: Accommodation Ladder Davits

 Felix:

 On BAINBRIDGE, they were removed and stowed while underway; I suspect this is the norm.

 John Snyder
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22)
From: "Mike Leonard" <mike.leonard@erols.com>
Subject: First Model

 The first model I ever built? I'm pretty sure it was a Revell 1/72 Spitfire that I got at the Woolworth's in Jamaica Plain, Massachusetts, for under a dollar, then lovingly hand painted in no particular pattern with glossy Testor enamels.

 I had lots of ship models by Pyro, Renwal, Revell, etc. starting in the early 60s, all of which were usually "decommissioned" in the back yard with illegal firecrackers that my brother got in Boston's Chinatown. I didn't get hooked again on ships until finishing up active duty in the Navy, seeing the real things up close and personal.

 Mike L
 Alexandria, VA  USA
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23)
From: "Aylin Kececi" <paktavuk@superonline.com>
Subject: First Model Kit

 Hi,

 My first kit wasn't a ship but a 1/72 Cessna twin boom pull-push plane. I remember because it was the first model I built with the help of my father. I was four. The rest I managed alone. I even have one of the tail booms of the model, still. That was more that 25 years ago. Later I built many ship models together with 1/72 aircraft. I don't even remember which manufacturers' kits. I could even paint them, because my parent didn't allow me to "play with enamel paint and thinners" until about 12 years of age. There was a time, when I started inventing new forms of armor, a/c and ships (if you can call them so)that my mother decided to "cleaned up my room" and I lost most of my "early work". But whatever I built in my "early-teen colorful era", I kept. They are somewhere in my grandmothers attic. Then came the years of crisis with a lack of inspiration. It was about 7 years ago that I re-discovered modeling and my childhood. My second "first kit" was a 1/35 Italeri M32 recovery vehicle, which I unfortunately lost but have the photos of. Then comes the "middle era"; the years of semi-professionalism which brings with itself the AMS (advanced modeler syndrome). And this meant the end of my "career as a happy modeler". 

 Although all kits and figures I have built in recent years were "one-of-a-kind" (I don't build two kits/figures of the same scale and class/category) and they should be considered "firsts" and they all won mostly firsts at the Nats (in Hungary), my third "first kit" coinciding with my "advanced era" is still to come, which probably will be an IJN ship in 1/200.

 So I guess I'll have many first kits. I might even exhibit them sometime. Thanks for bringing up the subject. Why not organize an exhibition of first kits of modelers?

 Wish HAPPY modeling to all colleagues.

 Alpaslan Ertungealp
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24)
From: Baker <davebaker@erols.com>
Subject: AD NOT SAME AS AR

 Ed Grune's informative and interesting report on the Orlando IPMS convention mentioned that Loose Cannon is marketing a kit that can be made into either a DIXIE-class AD, a VULCAN-class AR, or a SPERRY-class AS. While the AD and AS's were quite similar in major features, the hull for the VULCAN class had a considerable sheer not present in the other two designs and was of different dimensions and proportions. Unless one does not care for accuracy, making a DIXIE into a VULCAN (or vice versa) would be MAJOR conversion effort and probably not worth the effort.

 Wish more SMMLies had made FLETCHERs for the convention; perhaps if all the effort put into discussing the possibilities of the project in SMML had been diverted to actual building of models, there might have been a bigger flotilla of FLETCHERs on display 

 Best/Dave Baker

 Mmmm, more time modelling, less time talking or thinking about the interesting schemes/conversions which flit across the brain. Novel idea.........pity it'll never happen ;-))

 Mistress Lorna
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25)
From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jim Shirley Gearing kit info.

 Doc,

 I have built a 1/700 scale JS FRAM Gearing built. The casting quality is quite good, even on very small parts. It has only very limited photo etch parts. One of the parts is a section of railing that has the supports for the helopad deck. Unfortunately, JS doesn't give you enough for both sides of the ship! I used a Flagship Models (shameless plug) Knox class frigate
detail set to get all the delicate delicate details needed to finish out properly and the whole set worked very well.

 I would recommend this kit to you but beware, these are the WORST instructions I have ever tried to use. While photos of the parts on the backing is shown, the negative they used was backwards! So all the arrows pointing out parts must be translated in reverse. They also showed a Sumner FRAM on my sheet. I guess saving the production time to produce two separate sheets since both ship classes were so similar.

 In the end it makes a nice looking kit and is the only accurate 1/700 Gearing/Sumner hull on the market. 

 Rusty White
 Flagship Models Inc.
 http://www.okclive.com/flagship/
 "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs"
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26)
From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com
Subject: Re: First Ship Model

 Sorry to answer so late in the game but I just got back from the Nationals and am trying to catch up.

 My first ship was the 1/700 scale USS Hornet by Tamiya. Our club had a build where we had to build a model type we have never built before. Since I had never built a ship, the Hornet was my choice. Once the model was finished, I was hooked. I enjoy the complexity and delicacy of ships. I also believe they are the most beautiful of mans mechanical creations.

 Rusty White
 Flagship Models Inc.
 http://www.okclive.com/flagship/
 "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs"
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27)
From: "John Rule" <jjrule@idirect.com>
Subject: Snyder & Short Paint Chips

 I submit the following letter (verbatim) which I sent to John Snyder to which he has already replied. If any one else would like to comment please feel free. Suffice it to say that I can highly recommend their paint chip sets and feel they are to be commended for their contribution to our hobby or interest.

 Hi John,
  
 WELL DONE!!!!! I am impressed that after all these years of waiting someone has at last produced real paint chips of these colours (sorry-----colors).

 At first I was thrown by them but after looking at them in different light I think they look great. My biggest problem is that I think the older I get the harder it is to discern some of the subtleties of hue and tone.

 The two blues B-5 and B-6 have always thrown me and at first I thought your B-5 wasn't blue enough, but I've had second thoughts on this and think you must be right on.

 I see I must try to find a copy of the Munsell Book of Color (1929 edition) in my area to look at these for myself.

 Now come my questions :-))

 1. In Alan Raven's article in PSM he describes B-5 as 10B 5/2 and AP 507B as 5PB 5.5/2 yet the chips look quite similar. Actually I think I may have just stumbled onto the answer to my own question. I guess that 10B is actually 0PB in the Munsell color system. This accounts for the similarity of color. So much for that question!

 2. Alan Raven describes MS 2 as 5PB 4.5/1.25 but the color chip looks as though it should be in the BG range. Is this just a perception problem on my part

 END OF QUESTIONS!!!! (count your blessings)
  
 Now back to the praise. I now have all of your chip sets and look forward to all of your future releases eagerly. I know you intend to complete the RN colors followed by the German and Italian ( to which I look especially forward ), but I hope you don't think you will be able to stop there.

 Now that you have started such a worthwhile exercise I hope you will continue with more.......................like a set for modern warships for instance with say the ship colors of USA, Canada, Australia, Royal Navy, JMSDF, India, France, Italy, Russia etc even if some of them may be repeats they would be good in one set for direct comparisons.

 Thank you again for the great effort. 
  
 Sincerely,
 John
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28)
From: "F J Hueso" <fjhueso@redestb.es>
Subject: First ship model

 Back in the 70's maybe a waterline Japanese ship (perhaps Shikinami) or HMS Torquay, Having an Uncle who is Rear Admiral (ret) and living up to 1986 not more than 100 kms. of the shore, is understandable, I think My first appointments were in the Navy, where I stayed more than seven years, (Now I'm in the Army) but I expect to return someday!

 Regards
 Javier
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29)
From: louellet@uism.bu.edu
Subject: Re: Ship in Philadelphia

 Peter Mispelkamp <pdmispelkamp@sprint.ca> wrote:

>> Questions: during my arrival in Philadelphia my plane passed over a USN shipyard - swear I saw a WWII vintage heavy cruiser - was I dreaming?? <<

 The heavy cruiser you saw is the USS DesMoines. She is a W.W.I.I. designed ship that was started during the last year of the war and finished in 1948 or 1949. I believe she has been decommissioned since 1960. The Des Moines is stricken and available as a museum or will be scrapped. You can always visit her sister! (See below)

 Larry Ouellette   louellet@uism.bu.edu
 Volunteer, USS Salem (CA 139)
 Quincy, Massachusetts
 http://www.uss-salem.org/
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30)
From: James Corley <jdcorley@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Tigerfish?? NOT!

>> But if this project doesn't start coming together soon, I may just paint it pink and call it the Tigerfish. <<

 Nobody else notices things? I'm gone to the IPMS Nationals and the group can't even remember the name of one of the most famous movie subs?!

 She was the SEA TIGER, filmed aboard the QUEENFISH, if the 393 on the side of the sail can be trusted (post-war opening sequence), making her a PNY boat. Although a fleet snorkel or GUPPY would have looked more realistic for a 1941 boat, the boat did have the correct armamnent for the boat she most closely represented, SEA LION (scuttled at Cavite following an air attack on 25DEC41) with having only a single .50 cal MG..although not a water-jacket cooled gun, it was the gun still in service today.

 Interestingly, most of the storyline of the film really happened, just not to the same boat!

 A torpedo really ran up on the beach, sinking a building (not a truck) after the magnetic influence trigger fails while running under an anchored tanker.

 A sub really was painted pink for a short time, but never sortied.

 Many subs evacuating the Philippines carried Army personnel, including nurses, to Darwin.
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31)
From: "foeth" <efoeth@engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Foeths Vacation Report

 I've been on a small ship tour along the east coast, to get away from my current research (Which was still there when I got back). The highlight of my trip was a long and thourough tour through the Salem by Steve Singlar, thank you Steve! Of course, I already awarded him with special Dutch beers. The Salem itself is a beautifull ship and a worth while visit. The ship is
quite large for a cruiser, armed with 9 rapid firing 8" guns (8 shots/minute). She desperately needs a new coat of paint, but alas, the navy refuses to fund such a project, or the lending of some of her bored sailors to do the job, so volunteers are the only help, and then the cruiser is suddenly even more massive than previously thought. I'd say towing it into a city should help getting the ship more attention, as she is moured somewhat in a dismal area of Quincy, so no chance of impulsive tourists visiting her. 

 On board I had the pleasure of meating the Model Curator, John Frohock, and John Sheridan, who conspired against me and tricked me into buying a Salem Model by Classic Warships, which is, by the way, a very handsome kit! John Sheridan might do a small decal set for me (For a modest fee, of course) to finally do the Arado aircraft recognition symbols in 1/350. I'll provide the info, he'll do the design and set, and then that part of misery is finally over (White decals! It is possible!) I'll try to provide him will a lot of numbers etc. to do several KM ships, provided that the set is not getting to large (meaning expensive). The ships interior are a nice thing to see, especially the engine room, which is a clutter of pipes, valves, stairs and ladders, making one wonder how the got under sail in hte first place. A big difference from a nice diesel engine in a super container ship, and the turbine room on a fast ferry. The ship had the best looking collection of ship models I've seen on my entire trip. 

 Big Mammie was also on the agenda, which is a very satisfying visit. This ship is moored next to a large bridge, no doubt bringing more than just the dedicated visitor. I walked the decks of a real battleship for the first time, and consumed more filmrolls than a vulcan uses ammo. In a very good state indeed, though the upper decks were off limits (On all ships, by the
way). Too bad the interior of the turrets were closed of, though you could get a nice view through a small slot. Many of BB-59's AAA mounts on the decks were removed, no doubt to avoid lawsuits by clumsy tourists walking into them, but some remained. All in all, it's a very impressive ship, even for such a small battleship, with a few small musea inside, including an aircraft (?) model exposition.

 Next to the Massachusetss is a balao class sub, a DD and a ex-German missile frigate, which were nice, but not as fun as BB-59. 

 Just for the fun of it, I visited one of the three remaining Boston Tea Party Ships, though they said it was a replica, and got a show by extremly bored tour guides, adding to the overall pleasure. Across the river is the DD Cassin Young, in a very good condition, and I even managed to take a view pics above the normal tour deck, after whining to the tour guides until they went numb, and explaining to them I won't sue if I fall of a ladder, so they agreed.

 Next to that DD is the USS Constitution, which is navy-controlled, so you're pushed onto the deck with a short folder and them you get off of it again. Not very interesting, overall.

 In New York I boarded the Intrepid, which has a very interesting exposition in the hangar, and some aircraft on deck. (So that's the SR-71 Blackbird? Yawn...). The ship itself is moderaly interesting, but has been modernized, though a view gunmounts remained on the ship, albeith only visible from the quay, except the 3" dual AAA mount placed on deck. The musea in the ship are worth while, but the burgers are expensive. There is a post WWII DD next to her, but beyond my field of interest, though it was a nice visit nonetheless. The biggest difficulty was getting to the ship with my car, as the Intrepid is in the middle of Manhattan. This can be solved with creative and assertive driving, however.

 Unfortunately, my travelling companion refused to drive to the North Carolina, so we went to Chicago instead, and saw the U505, with the usual short and not-informative tour. In the mean time, I also visited another Balao class sub, the Constellation, the Olympia (Nice! Something different, and she is in a good state) plus the armour collection of Aberdeen, which is rusting away amd most of it is already beyond help, so thank you Aberdeen for wasting those tanks.

 Anyway, an enjoyable 4000 miles trip!

 Evert-Jan Foeth
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32)
From: "foeth" <efoeth@engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Silent Subs

 I've seen a few posts on 'secret sub props' etc. Of course, the navy tries to keep everything classified, but props are a special area. The prop is a large piece of equipment that besides providing propulsion, also generates sound. There is the normal sound, depending on Number of blades, no of revolutions etc (Generating blade rate noise) etc, but the main problem is
cavitation, a problem which is largely not understood.

 Cavitation is the formation of watervapour in low pressure regions of fluids, like boiling of water without adding any heat. The main trouble is that when such a vapour cloud enters a higher pressure region, it collapses with amazing forces, sound, and even generates light. The sound waves travel very far and can be picked up by anyone. The forces on the hull generate a healty dose of sound for the crew and generate vibrations (Cavitation vibrations on the cruise ship Oriana were so large that the dishes, glasses etc would just 'vibrate' of the table!). Also, the imploding cavities will eat away your propeller, making it even more sensitive and noisy.

 The shape of the propeller is extremely important, and everyone tries to keep cavitation down the inception point, ie. the point where cavitation occurs first. This is normally tip vortex cavitation, looking like a large spiral coming of the propeller blades. These vortices can decide to turn onto the hull, and hammer the steel away (literally) over time. The main focus is to design new blades which have a low inception point. Some of these props are tested in the Netherlands in a dutch/US prop program, with the ducth supplying the model tests and the frigate, and the USA the bucks. I've been present at a series of model tests at the model test basin in the Netherlands, called MARIN (MAritime Research Institute Netherlands), which was 'secret' but not so secret, at least no more than with a merchant prop, but it were only test models.

 Above a certain ship speed, everything starts cavitating, sometimes even the sonar domes on the ships! (And the reason they are there is to keep them out of the props noise). It's safe to day that every WWII ship at speed could be picked up when it speed was high enough (20kts). Subs sail at greater depths where pressure is higher and cavitation has difficulty appearing, but remains a big problem. And then there is of course the normal noise.

 So, if things go bad, subs don't just pass by unnoticed, but will be picked up by about everyone, banging away like mad! Frigates etc will also have to have props cavitating the least as possible, as will the supply ships. There's no need to have a superbly silent fleet with a supply ship shouting their position away. The secrecy around the sub prop always seems to be a little over the top, as you can hardly see anything on a propeller, and you don't know the design philosophy behind it. I mean, the Chinese already know.

 Foeth
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33)
From: CBNJBB62@aol.com
Subject: Re: First Model/USS Des Moines/US Nationals 

 Hi Lorna 

 I liked to send you this, my first model was the USS New Jersey by Revell in  1/480  scale(?). I rode on my bike all 4 miles to the Pennsauken Mart and I guess I was 12 at the time after saving a few weeks of allowance money to purchase a $3.50 price tag for the kit. 

 Also for Peter Mispelkap I know the identity of the cruiser that you saw over flying the Phillie Navy Yard, it's the USS Des Moines CA-139, she's going to be a museum in Minnesota. By the way there are two other ships in that mothball fleet scheduled for museums 1. The USS Charles F. Adams DDG-2 in Michigan and 2. The USS Oliver Perry FFG-7 but I don't know where. 

 For Art Nicholson Well the ship category took up 2 lines of tables 12 tables to a line. One for subs and the other for ships. Must been about 40-60 ship models all together not to mention the dioramas and I contributed 2 fletchers to the fletcher category.

 I have 14 rolls of film to develop so half are about the contest. So I'll see what I can do after I master my scanner.

 Craig
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34)
From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com
Subject: Re: Nationals ship report

>> Does anyone have any news about the ship models at the 1999 IPMS/USA Nationals in Orlando? And is anyone going to have any photos of the models entered there? <<

 It seems for some reason the ship numbers were down from last year. Usually when the contest is on either coast ship models come from the woodwork. I was expecting more destroyers after the string on SMML. Sorry, there wasn't enough DD's there to justify a category split. Lots of subs. That goes to show you just can't predict anything from year to year.

 Let me put on my head judges hat for a minute. There was one problem that most ships suffered from as far as basics go. Before judging, as head ships judge I take a quick critical look at all the ships entered to make note of some problems I see. I don't judge any of them but I can pass on advice for my judges use when doing their jobs. In this case I noticed that most of the ships suffered from masts that didn't line up parallel or tilted to one side. Also yardarms were also tilted off perpendicular of the masts.  

 While we allow a little tilt concerning the yards on sailing ships this was the number one basics flaw that knocked most of the models out of the top three. When you add the masts and yards double and triple check your alignment. There is always super glue showing on some models. What's sad is there is no reason for this to happen. I completely finish my models including rigging and as a last step I blast the whole model with a flat coat which eliminates the glossy super glue.
 
 The good news is that the Judges Grand Award came down to a slugfest between a ship and an armored train. After two votes with almost a hundred judges in the room the armored train came out 6 votes ahead.

 The ship was a 1/700 DML USS Tarawa model. It had a complete hangar deck and consisted of (according to his notes) over 3700 custom made parts and a Flagship Models (shameless plug) detail set. It was absolutely a case of turning a sows ears into a silk purse. I also want to say it had the best photo etch application technique I have ever seen. Using a pen light, I
couldn't tell where the railing met the bulkheads. No shadow, no glue globs, nothing. Perfectly smooth, and in 1/700 scale.

 A Glencoe USS Oregon was a first place winner after the modeler literally rebuilt everything from the deck up (including a real wooden deck). 

 In the Contest Committee meeting it was decided to literally rewrite the judges handbook. Since it was written so long ago, many changes have taken place that need to be addressed (like resin, metal and photo etch). Within 60 days I have to submit my suggestions concerning the ships section.  

 If you have any suggestions you would like considered, I would like to hear it. Email me off line and I'll collect all your suggestions and incorporate them into the ships section. Sorry to ramble.

 Rusty White
 IPMS National Head Ship Judge
 "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs"
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35)
From: Darren Scannell <thehawk@idirect.com>
Subject: Re: HMCS Prince Robert query

>> I would like to build the RCN AA 'cruiser' HMCS Prince Robert. So far I can only find one photo of her in the book 'RCN in Retrospect'. Is anyone aware of any drawings or other photos of her? <<

 Bob,

 The Canadian National Archives lists several drawings of the HMCS Prince Robert and her sisters. Contact me off list if you want ordering info and prices. They may even have some photos.

 I haven't yet replied about my first ship model because I have a horrendous memory and can only remember how much fun I had sinking them in the small pool we had in the back yard. No guns allowed, so I used all sorts of flammable devices. (when my parents weren't home that is!) I was always fascinated with the little black tails that come from burning plastic. My first model was a red 55? chevy convertible, probably by Monogram with opening doors and hood that I got for xmas and had built by dinner. I remember all sorts of battleships, including the Arizona. Trips to the corner store to buy a small LST, the box couldn't have been more than 4" long and a buddy who had a couple too many beer trying to carry my 1/400 Monogram USS Enterprise upstairs and tripping and destroying my full hangar deck interior along with the rest of the model. To many memories, not enough pictures.

 Regards,

 Darren Scannell
 Bowmanville, Ontario
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36)
From: Lamar Jones <btrlbj@bellsouth.net>
Subject: deck tone for Sheffield, circa 1940-41

 Is there a Humbrol color, or mix of colors, that will reasonably match HMS Sheffield's bleached teak decking, circa 1940-41?
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37)
From: CBNJBB62@aol.com
Subject: Squadron 99 catalogue

 Hi

 Before I forget at the 99 nationals convention package you get for preregistering was a copy of the Squadron fall '99 book catalogue and in it was two interesting titles:

 1. US Light Cruisers in Action # 4012 By Al Adcock,it reads in the caption "Traces the development of US Light Cruisers during WW2 and their postwar conversions and modernization with chapters dealing with the Omaha, Brooklyn, St.Louis, Cleveland, Worchester and Atlanta Classes. 100 photographs, line drawings 3 full cover paintings , 6 profiles 50 pages long and due in November 1999.

 2. Is a book on the UH-60 Black hawk helicopter due in September's?

 Craig
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38)
From: Ives100@aol.com
Subject: Re: Lionfish/Drum

>> Here's another tip: The plastic on the hull is very thick. Sand the back of the casing to reduce its thickness and open the limber holes BEFORE you join the hull halves. It's a lot easier and looks more realistic. <<

 Ouch, should have mentioned that in the original post. I do all the limber hole work on the hull halves before I glue them together. Can't imagine doing it on the whole hull. I like the idea of thinning the plastic; Revell sure makes it thick!

>> Or better still, just wait until Tom's Modelworks releases it's 1/200 Balao kit <<
 
 Just what is the status of this project? I heard about it over a year ago, even emailed Tom about it end of last year. His 1:350 scale Balao kit is very good. Since the hull is solid resin, you are more or less stuck with the limber hole pattern, which is the Gov't. one, since Tom used Pampanito as his subject for the 1:350 kit.

 Tom Dougherty
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39)
From: Chuck Messer <chuck1155@earthlink.net>
Subject: First Ship Model

 Okay, here's my first ship model: Aurora's Nautilus. As mentioned before, it wasn't very accurate - but then, during the sixites, I didn't know that. The same kit was boxed as the Seawolf, and even at eight years old, I could see it didn't even remotely resemble the picture on the box.

 I later built the Aurora Skipjack, which was much better. I've been hooked on ships since, expecially submarines. Seeing 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea as a kid might have had something to do with it.
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40)
From: Dimi Apostolopoulos <da1v@FRC2.frc.ri.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: HMS Warspite Camouflage 1941

 Mike,

 The two photos of Warspite do appear in Tarrant's book "Battleship Warspite" and they are credited to two different people. Both of them seem to have been taken before her refit at Bremerton (no radar type 271 lantern on the foremast starfish and no single Oerlikons next to the base of the B-turret...at least) If you had not said anything about the photo of her and Illustrious, I would have guessed that she was painted in the two tone scheme at Alexandria some time in June 1941.

 Illustrious and Warspite were in the same task force when they were hit by German bombers on January 10, 1941 south of Malta. Heavily damaged, Illustrious managed to make it to Malta for emergency work and from there she sailed to Norfolk through Suez. Illustrious returned to Malta in August 1943 and participated in the invasion of Italy (Salerno) along with Warspite from September to early October 1943.

 Taking into account all information available, it may be that the photo in "The Mediterranean Fleet" book was taken during Dec. 1940 or just a few days before the January 10/41 action...

 Dimi

 PS: Could it be that the carrier in the photo you mentioned is in fact Formidable?
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41)
From: Mike.Dunn@dresdner-bank.com
Subject: Questions on ballast

 Hi,

 A question to all you "real" modellers out there (not these "Johnny-come-lately" plastic or resin modellers - -just joking! I enjoy plastic & resin modelling as much as building vessels to sail, so all replies are welcome).

 I'm at the stage that I'm ready to start ballasting out my scratch-built Leander frigate. I called into a local model shop, and they recommended mixing a 2-part epoxy with lead pellets (small - I think under 1mm) & putting this mixture into the hull. Well, I'm not too happy about this for several reasons, the main ones being the resulting mess inside the hull, the fact that I'd like to make small strips/blocks so that I can arrange the balance properly, and that a test I made remained quite sticky for over a week, when the blurb for the epoxy stated that it would be cured within 48 hours.

 What do other people use?  Any/all hints & tips will be gratefully received.

 Mike 
 (patiently waiting for WEM to release their new Leander, so that I can have a detailed plastic vessel by a detailed resin vessel by a not-very detailed scratch-built powered vessel.  Not that I like the Leander class, you understand......It's my wife......honest......!!!!!!)

 Mike,

 You worry about the Leanders, I'm waiting patiently for the "Modified" Leanders to come out ;->>.

 Shane - via Lorna
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TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD

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1)
From: "Peter Hall" <adz29@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: 1/600 Scale Normandie 

 Hi Everyone

 Could I just take a moment to remind you all that the deadline for placing orders for a 1/600 scale model of the 'Normandie' is drawing in on us, as the end of July approaches.

 This is the subject that won the vote for a new model ship in 1/600 scale with 14 votes. I said that I would proceed with the project only if there were at least 10 confirmed orders placed with White Ensign Models mail at. xdt22@dial.pipex.com

 Unfortunately there are not enough orders to do this as yet, so if you really would like to have a kit of the 'Normandie' please be quick or the second place subject HMS Dido will be produced instead.

 Cheers
 Peter Hall 
 Atlantic Models     
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2)
From: "Shaya Novak" <shaya@erols.com>
Subject: USS Mission Capistrano

 You can find this and many more Merchant Marine ships at:

 http://www.modelshipbuilding.com 
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End of Volume