Subject: SMML31/07/99VOL623 Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 01:28:16 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: 1/96 scale aircraft 2: Re: First Model 3: HMS Illustrious 4: HMS Warspite decks 5: Re: AD's and AS 6: More Turret Color Tidbits 7: Re: RN Wood Decks 8: Job Opportunity (UK) 9: Re: Judging from the British Perspective 10: Weathered teak 11: Nats / Bismarck / ACW ships 12: Malta 13: First Model 14: Re: Modeling critique and cases 15: Re: Judging 16: Brit Ceylon Class cruisers and Majestic class carriers 17: Re: Teak 18: wood decks 19: Heller contact? 20: Re: Wet Teak 21: IJN Sub Decks 22: US Boat and Ship Modeler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Mic Toole" Subject: 1/96 scale aircraft Hi Guys, this is a great site that I am really enjoying. My airplane related question is for a source of 1/96 or 1/100 scale aircraft, WW II or modern, (modern being the 1960 CH-46, H-53 etc.) My desires are for an IJN carrier or USN LPH-in r/c. Thanks to one and all!- Mike Toole -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Jon Parshall Subject: Re: First Model >> My first model was the Hasegawa's 1/700th cruiser "Nachi" in the year 1974. I was twelve years old. Since then I have building 1/35 scale tanks and actually Historex's figures. But finally I came back to the ships in this last spring. << It's eerie... I was 12 years old, too, *in 1974*, when I built "Haguro". What is it about those Myoko-class cruisers?! :-) Jon parshall- Imperial Japanese Navy Homepage http://www.skypoint.com/members/jbp/kaigun.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: HMS Illustrious Hi Michael At the time of Taranto, Illustrious carried Swordfish and Fairey Fulmars. She had 30 Swordfish on board but due to various problems only 22 took off and 21 made the attack. Her Fulmar complement was 12 fighters and I suspect she had them all on board. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: HMS Warspite decks Hi Michael There's an excellent photo of Warspite at Bremeton In Raven and Roberts (P.230-231) which shows a consistent dark colour for the decks. This suggests that they were painted at least during the refit. The colour of the unpainted decks is quite significantly different (see P.227 of the same Volume). Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: LeadSled58@aol.com Subject: Re: AD's and AS In an earlier edition of SMML it was stated: >> While the AD and AS's were quite similar in major features, the hull for the VULCAN class had a considerable sheer not present in the other two designs and was of different dimensions and proportions. Unless one does not care for accuracy, making a DIXIE into a VULCAN (or vice versa) would be MAJOR conversion effort and probably not worth the effort. << Apparantly someone misquoted some information as the Vulcan is an AR not an AS. Her hull is almost identical to the Dixie class, yeah, about 1 foot shorter. Same beam and draft. In fact some where made by the same ship yard in the same era. Either could be made from the same kit, with some minor modifications. Now the same eras AS, the Proteus class or the Fulton class are different enough to say that one could not be converted to another. Tom -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: GrafSpee34@aol.com Subject: More Turret Color Tidbits Another turret color tidbit: according to "Anstriche & Tarnanstriche der deutschen Kriegsmarine" in November 1939,Gneisenau's turret Bruno had an experimental red turret top (oblique and horizontal portions), with a broad white stripe running beamwise to in the middle of the horizontal surface. Scharnhorst's peactime ID markings included, for a time, black horizontal surfaces, with a white "O" identification marking on Anton, as used on German ships in WWI. In 1940 the turret tops were overpainted with yellow, then in May 1940 with red. All of this information comes from the above-cited book. The book does not state the source of this information. For that and other reasons, I would not recommend anyone rush to buy this book. My b/w photos of Eugen during Cerebus show that the horizontal main turret surfaces are a lighter shade than the oblique and vertical surfaces. This includes the top of turm Bruno, under the Flak mount. KM modelbuilders should either choose a time period for which turret colors are adequately documented, or make provisions for removing the model's turrets and repainting them if/when documentation becomes available. Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: RN Wood Decks I posed the question to Alan Raven, since he's hard at work on his books on RN WW2 camo. His answer: >> Wood decks --- assume natural colour unless definate data to the contrary. Dark blue on the Barham decks in 1941--maybe, but--and this is a big but, the reference has to hold up to close examination, a casual whisper on the wind is nowhere near good enough. << John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: John Snyder Subject: Job Opportunity (UK) And rather an attractive little MOD number in The Times yesterday, Thursday. Head of Naval Historical Branch, based in New Scotland Yard(!) : '...preparation of in-house historical studies and monographs...' '...contribute to wide historical debate...' '...take part in conferences and seminars in UK and abroad...' '...sound knowledge and understanding of naval history...' -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Re: Judging from the British Perspective It's been quite interesting to read everyone's posts on the judging at the U.S. Nationals. Our Nationals IPMS judging is different in the U.K. The majority of judging is done by IPMS (non-manufacturing!) members. I believe that at the UK Nats there are upwards of 5 thousand models on display. Judges are drawn principally from the plentiful SIG groups (all of whom have stands at our Nationals) for the particular specialist area that requires judges (e.g. the Cruiser SIG and Battleship SIG get together and judge all classes of ships). Even for the prestigious (!) White Ensign Models Trophy, I allow the SIGS to do the judging, as I feel that if a WEM build gets it, that I COULD be accused of bias by the entrants.. it was bad enough having to present the trophy 2 years ago in front of an assemblage of hundreds.. to Peter Hall.. to the calls of "Fix, Fix", wasn't it Peter?! I HAVE judged ship sections at the odd small regional show, but usually that's because there's been no-one around with specialist ship modelling knowledge.. and even my knowledge doesn't really extend to the "wooden walls" of sailing ships! These shows generally have a "generic" ship section with a static, waterlined, 1/700 scale destroyer having to compete against a 1/48 Scale Floaty Boaty, and a fully rigged Napoleonic sailing ship.. not easy! I'll never forget the whinges from the entrant of a 1/96 Scale Type 21 frigate at, I think, Hartlepool (he carefully positioned it so it obscured all other entries), when I gave Gold to a 1/700 Scale, beautifully built and detailed static ... I spent 1/2 an hour pointing out WHY I had made my decision... such as the gaps all over his 5ft long model, and all I got was "but mine's bigger than his!!" No comment... Also, at the U.K. Nationals, manufacturers such as ourselves are so desparately busy that we really can't leave the stands to get away and judge! Anyhows, the biggest and bestest Nationals in the world, chaps, is only 11 weeks away, at Telford, so join the IPMS now and get building, or just come along for the weekend (25th/26th October) and visit us all! All my best Caroline White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/plist1.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Kenneth H. Goldman" Subject: Weathered teak Based on the plank I have from the Missouri, the color is somewhere between grimy tan and mouse gray. It is more of a chocolate gray when wet. Does this qualify as primary research? Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER http://www.wman.com/~khgold/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Nats / Bismarck / ACW ships Hi All; When will the Nats. be on the West Coast? My anchor is down in Los Angeles and it`s on a short chain, (very ill wife, in hospital today as I write this). Were there any ACW ships entered? What scale, and how did they do? Regarding BISMARCKS air recognition markings being painted out- I`m reading M.J. Whitley`s excellent _German Cruisers of WWII_. I just finished the section on PRINZ EUGEN`s participation in operation 'Rheinubung'. I quote from page 119 "...and by 0900 on the on the 21st. stood off Kors Fjord, anchoring in Kalvenes Bay shortly after midday." (snip) "While oiling continued, the camouflage scheme was overpainted grey on the orders of the Fleet Commander". Page 120-"Outside friendly aircraft range now, the colored turret tops and the 'Hakenkreuz' on forecastle and quarterdecks were painted out, ..". Notice the plural" quarterdecks", implying both ships? probably so. Who makes resin/injected/? ACW ship models? Any scale. I know of the Pyro kits and the resin HUNLEY`s and ironclads. Do 1:1200 and smaller models ever get entered and how do they do? is there a seperate catagory for the tiny ones? Do 1:600 coastal craft ever show up?? Thanks Chuck Duggie naval gamer/ ship modeller/ amateur naval historian. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Alan Woodward" Subject: Malta Hi again, This may be a bit off the subject, but I have just returned from a holiday in Malta and saw what looked like a WWII submarine tied up in one of the creeks. Time prevented me getting to that part of the island (I saw it while doing a harbour cruise) so I don't know if it had anything to do with the maritime museum, but I have searched my books back home and can find no mention of such a vessel preserved in Malta. I have a pretty good photo of it but still cannot identify it. Does anyone out there know anything? BTW, USS Mount Whitney was in harbour at the time, tied up below the Upper Barraca Gardens. So nice of them to tie up where photo's can be taken! Alan Devon, UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Alan Woodward" Subject: First Model Hi, I've been impressed with the memory retention of you lot remembering your first kits from way back. I only have to remeber back to the beginning of the 1980's and I can't say what my first kit was! My first waterline kit was Skywave's HMS Manchester, and my first resin kit was Doc-Model's HMS Fernie. The first multi-media kit was WEM's HMS Cossack, nothing too adventerous in case I mucked it all up. Happily I didn't and am now solidly hooked on brass etch! Alan Devon, UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Modeling critique and cases Craig Bennett wrote: >> Dear Rusty: I attended the nationals and had 4 ship models there. They were in glued plastic cases and were the Pringle, John Rodgers, Gettysburg,and Callaghan. What was good or bad about them as far as the nationals went? << Dear Craig: One thing you need to keep in mind when entering the nationals. This is the Olympics of modeling and it doesn't get much better than the competition there. I won't even take a model to the Nationals unless it has placed first or better at the regional level. I don't like critiquing models in an open forum such as this. If you want constructive criticism of your models, contact me off list. I also didn't judge your category, or anyone else's. I did however, take a critical look at them. I don't want to ruin your day, but your models weren't judged. There is a rule stating that any models that don't have their protective covers removed for judging will not be judged. That goes for ships, a/c, armor, etc. Yours fell into this net because the covers were glued down. I believe there was one other as well. I'm sure I just burned the stern of a number of modelers, but that's the way it is. Awaiting the slings and arrows. Rusty White IPMS Head Ship judge "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Sheridan, John" Subject: Re: Judging Jon Warneke spoke: >> But, one thing we didn't evaluate was the colors used on the kit. There's no way for any judge to properly determine if the shade of hue is correct, since there are so many factors that can determine what they'll look like. One of the major ones is the lighting in the room, and this rooms lighting, while adequate, was also affected by the reflective surfaces in the room (white ceilings projected down onto a base red room). Not that this is detremental, but at the same time isn't the same as natural light (or the fact that it became a new day while we judged). Overall, color isn't a good determinant for judging, as a basic, but how it's applied is. << What a bunch of hooey! Jon, I saw this kit myself at the Orlando Nats and the first thing that hit me was that the camouflage scheme was flat-out wrong. It had nothing to do with room lighting or reflective surfaces. The modeler simply did not use the correct colors on the upper hull/island. They used Ocean Gray/Navy Blue instead of Haze Gray/Ocean Gray which are completely different shade combinations (and colors) of paint. Here's an example of Hornet's MS 12 Modified scheme at around the time of the Doolittle Raid: http://www.navsource.org/Archives/CV/CV-08_Hornet2.jpg The photo clearly show that Hornet's Island is in distinctly different shades of paint than the rest of the lower hull/superstructure. The model in question, Was painted overall Ocean Gray/Navy Blue from the waterline to the tops of the masts. This scheme does not even follow even the basic recommendations for MS 12 as outlined in SHIPS-2 Spetember 1941 edition. What you're saying is since the modeler got the basic color right (Gray) it shouldn't matter what shade of gray it is as long as it's Gray. Also, since the ship (USS Hornet CV-8) was being modeled in a specific time period (april 1942), I would think that the camouflage scheme at least be correct for the time period being modeled, would you ? John Sheridan Visit my USN Ship Camo site at: http://home.earthlink.net/~jrsheridan/ I am not a Member of the Lumber Cartel (tinlc) and I am not Unit #631 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: rolie Subject: Brit Ceylon Class cruisers and Majestic class carriers Hi, I am a new subscriber to this list. I am looking for info on the British Ceylon(modified Fiji) class cruisers and Majestic class carriers. I build in 1/700 and do mostly ships of the RCN. I am looking for a source for plans of the cruisers/carriers and/or a kit of either. I am also looking for a good source of 1/700 fittings and accessories,such as Carly floats,steps with rails-RN style-and 1/700 figures and anything else. TIA, rolie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: valiant@home.com Subject: Re: Teak hello. actually teak is a dark chocolate colour, and it stays that way. the wood its self is naturally impregnated with a form of oil. it doesn't rot after it gets wet, because of the very high concentration of the oil protects the wood. the oil doesn't come off either making machineing or sanding it VERY difficult. thats why teak is used on ships, it lasts and lasts without haveing to be treated and protected. its also very heavy, weighting at least twice as much as hard maple or oak, sometimes three times (depending on the grade of the wood) again because of the oil. its also very, very VERY expensive, due to it's rarity. redecking a teak-decked Iowa class battleship would cost as much as a nice large house in a rather nice neighborhood. to show what a pain in the ass sanding teak is, i tell ya a little story. i work in a mill. one day, a guy came in with a pile of teak he was going to use to build a deck (on his house :) and wanted my boss to sand it for him. my boss took the job. we started to use the big 3-foot wide sander, and started to put the 8 inch boards thu. since we had the whole width of the belt to use, we put many boards in at a time. but the oil in the teak bogged the sander down to the point where it wouldn't run. with maple or oak this sander would have no problem. also, a belt for this thing would last a week of solid running with oak or maple. with the teak we got 3 passes, and the belt was destoryed! we had to change the belt almost 30 times to get the job done. the used belts even had a oily/waxy feel to them even after only three passes! Aaron Propper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Sami Subject: wood decks Hi everybody, If you guys are talking about 1/700 scale and smaller, my personel opinion is that the look is more important than the actual wood color. What i do first is to scribe the deck if it's a raised wood molding. After applying the wood color, i give it a black enamel wash with terpentine. This wash makes the deck look darker and dirtier. Terpentine is the best medium i tried for washes. It takes a long time to dry but the result is the most satisfying. You will have to give it a flatcoat after, because the wash has a semigloss finish. Sami Arim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: KDur597268@aol.com Subject: Heller contact? Does anyone have any experience getting replacement parts from Heller? Do you have an online or e-mail address for them? Bismarck has a warped hull. It's not so bad that I can't deal with it, but a couple of SMMLers convinced me that I should try to get it replaced and let y'all know if they come through. So . . . Ken Durling -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "Richard - Charlotte Marelius" Subject: Re: Wet Teak In the beginning of the movie "Under Siege" (notable for director Andrew Davis' superb job in making it seem as if Steven Seagal can act) there are a number of nice aerial shots of the Missouri at sea (at different times, since the decks are dry in some scenes, and partially soaked in others.) In these scenes, the wet decks are an almost mahogany color, while the dry areas are almost a honey yellow - probably freshly holystoned, considering the time when the movie was filmed. This would certainly make for a more interesting and realistic deck finish in a diorama. This brings up the subject of accuracy and research, as different ships respond (get wet) differently in different conditions. In moderate seas, the Missouri in the movie had a dry bow, but was quite wet from the A turret back to the helicopter pad. And with the wind off the starboard bow, the starboard side was wetter than the port, the color change being apparant on the second deck as well - the port was dry while the starboard was wet. This is likely quite different from a KGV with its low freeboard and notoriously wet bow. So, just when we thought it was tough enough finding camoflage references for both sides, now we need aerial shots in different sea conditions! Let's hear it for creative deduction (if that's OK with the judges, that is!) BTW, what would a wet teak deck that was stained deck blue look like versus a dry deck? I'll go pull my hair out now. Cheers, Rick Marelius -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Cooper, Mike" Subject: IJN Sub Decks Dear All I was interested to see another query on IJN sub decks. I don't think we ever got this sorted out - I asked the same question a bit back. I'd found a reference from Navis to them painting or otherwise waterproofing their sub decks, so that they wouldn't show as bare wood. I also remember a note that some classes never had wood, but I leave IJN stuff up to those in the know. By the way, my first ship - well which era?. 1/Build anything on the market - age 5-10ish - probably an old eagle Devonshire/Dorsetshire in about '68-ish. 2/Try to do it properly - say 21-37ish - First one I finished was Matchbox Kelly as Jupiter, whilst building Rodney (i got given it for Christmas...) First scratchbuild was Bluebell or a 1/1200th Victory. First decent effort has, of course, yet to happen! Mike Cooper (Hot sticky Reading, UK) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Sean D. Hert" Subject: US Boat and Ship Modeler Hi Guys- I was just leafing thru an old stack of references, and saw a copy of US Boat and Ship Modeler. What ever happened to this 'zine? Thx, Sean D. Hert Webmeister, MBG Site: http://www.netwalk.com/~popev/bg/ Ringmaster, Big Gun R/C Warship Combat Ring "History doesn't always repeat itself... sometimes it just screams 'Why don't you listen when I'm talking to you?' and lets fly with a club." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume