Subject: SMML06/08/99VOL629 Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 23:55:57 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Sub question 2: Re: Orange Peel Finish and Dremel Moto-Tool Meltdown & First Model 3: Iowa broadside 4: Dutch IPMS judging 5: Re: judges handbook & the mystique 6: HMS Chaudiere 7: Re: Enterprise flight deck 8: Re: Orange Peel Finish and Dremel Moto-Tool Meltdown 9: Re: Subject: Orange Peel Finish and Dremel Moto-Tool Meltdown 10: Scale chain 11: Orange Peel Finish 12: HMS HERO/HMCS CHAUDIERE/HMS DUNCAN 13: Desperately seeking Waveline HMS QE(1915) 1/700 14: Scale Model (UK) (HMS NORFOLK) 15: Re: WW ONE ROYAL NAVY COLOURS 16: Broadsides 17: Helping fellow SMMLer 18: Re: Orange Peel Finish and Dremel Moto-Tool Meltdown 19: Re: Tiny a/c decals 20: IPMS 21: Re: Mogami Turret tops 22: WW1 RN Colors 23: Attaching rigging lines to ship decks 24: Re: Missouri broadside 25: Re: Abrasive pastes and Dremel tools. 26: Re: Orange Peel Finish and Dremel Moto-Tool Meltdown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Atlantic Models News -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Growlrr@aol.com Subject: Sub question Hi gang I customer of mine's father served on board a sub in the Aleutians late 42 and early 43. He doesn;t know which one and has asked to me help try and find out. I have his name and tags #'s and what not, but I figured this might be a good place to find which subs served in this timeframe in the Aleutians Anybody have an idea? Thanks Glenn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Lundrigan, Patrick" Subject: Re: Orange Peel Finish and Dremel Moto-Tool Meltdown & First Model >> 1) abrasive pastes: I am getting ready to paint one of my models and noticed that the spray primer had left an "orange peel" finish in a few places. I would like to smooth the finish in these areas without using sandpaper (which obscures delicate surface detail) or steel wool (very hard to work with in small places), and without removing the primer from the entire model (since the problem exists in only a small number of places). One technique I thought might work is to use a toothbrush to apply an abrasive paste of some sort, scrubbing the part lightly until the paint finish is smooth. Has anyone tried such a technique, and could they recommend an abrasive paste of some sort for this purpose? Please don't suggest tooth paste; I've tried it, and it is not abrasive enough! << You might want to try 'rubbing compound' which you can find in an auto parts store. It is used for rubbing out rust on metal. I used it to take the light coat of rust off the cast iron table on my scroll saw. I think it is available in different grits. As for the question of what was my first model, I'm looking for an old photo which showed my bookcase and all my models. But I would guess my first 'ship' was the Star Trek Enterprise -- with crooked engine nacelles (just like the planet crusher episode, yes, they used the AMT kit in the show!). Pat -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "foeth" Subject: Iowa broadside Hmm, I always had the idea that the guns were fired separately to make sure the blast from the next gun would affect the projectiles path too much, insuring better accuracy. Wrong? Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "foeth" Subject: Dutch IPMS judging Let me put this discussion in a slightly differnet perspective: Last year at the dutch IPMS nationals, the second pize went to a model of the Kongo, which was not even painted grey (Thank god I did not participate), so you see, it can be a lot worse. And who can argue against it? Why paint grey plastic gray? Also, there was some unrest, as etched parts and resin might have been disqualified, as they as not Plastic, and the IPMS is about plastic. Fortunately, that did not happen. Oh, how I envy you with your colour discussions! Foeth Paint not included. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: judges handbook & the mystique The judges handbook as currently written is on the IPMS/USA web page. You may down load it from there. CLASSIFIED! Man, where does this stuff start? We as judges have been working for years to include the public in all aspects of the judging process at the national level. We actually held a seminar in Orlando titled "What Judges Look For" and it was very well attended. Apparently lots of folks feel the same way as you do. They seem to think that the judges corps (my definition) is a closed and secret society. If you want to be an IPMS/USA National judge, all you have to do is show up for the OJT (On the Job Training) meeting at the US Nats. You will be assigned to a team so you can see how the experienced judges do their work. You may share your comments and opinions with the judges but you not be allowed to vote that time. After 1 year (at the next Nationals) you are an IPMS/USA judge. You will be issued a nice IPMS/USA judges pin so you can PUBLICLY say you're qualified on the national level to judge your respective categories. After 5 years attendance at the nationals you're given a real nice certificate stating your 5 years of service. After 10 years attendance at the Nats you're given a gold certificate. Let me be clear. Everyone on the IPMS/USA E board wants more participation from the public in the judging process to help remove the mystique held by many modelers about the judges. I also welcome all of you to become judges. I always need good ship judges. Rusty White IPMS(USA) Head ship judge -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: HMS Chaudiere I think that Tom has got the right explanation and the photo shows HMS Duncan (flotilla leader D class). Of the 'tween war destroyer classes, the flotilla leaders of the early classes A to D were all given the flag superior D as were Amazon and Ambuscade and the whole I class. The change from D to I was pretty comprehensive, everything with a D being changed. Duncan survived the war so there should be some photos. The IWM photo collection would be able to help. Either the Admiralty or Foxhill collections are probably best. John is it possible for you to scan and e-mail me a copy of the photo as I'd like a closer look at it. Chris Langtree I would actually be interested in WW1 colour chips - it might persuade me to build some WW1 warships. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Enterprise flight deck >> Hangar deck was dark gray - whether that means dark gray or deck blue, I can't say. << I have nothing to base this on, but how about dark gray to represent a nonskid surface. The dark color would hide the unsightly hydraulic fluid and fuel stains. It would make sense. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Kenneth H. Goldman" Subject: Re: Orange Peel Finish and Dremel Moto-Tool Meltdown In sanding out orange peel you need to bridge the low spots in order to bring the high spots down flush with them. Using and abrasive paste and a toothbrush (BTW Rembrandt whitening toothpaste works as a polishing compound) will tend to polish down the entire painted surface and not smooth out until you have removed all the paint. It might work to use a flat-end bit of wood shaped from a popsicle stick to "brush" the abrasive. Steel wool will get into rather tight spaces if you hold a pinch of the stuff in tweezers for a handle. #600 wet-or-dry silicon carbide paper, used with water, is probably the best way to go. You can make whatever shape sanding sticks you need to get into the tightest recesses by rubber cementing silicon carbide paper to "tools" you shape from metal scraps. As for the Dremel tool's fusing the plastic, you might freeze the plastic first. I haven't tried this, but what the heck? Even a razor saw, pretty slow speed, will still soften the plastic and clog. Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER http://www.wman.com/~khgold/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: Re: Subject: Orange Peel Finish and Dremel Moto-Tool Meltdown 1. On the orange peel, you can get abrasives at your local auto parts store in two grits. Polishing compound is the finest, and rubbing compound is more aggressive. Personally, I like to use very fine sandpaper superglued to the end of some Evergreen styrene to get into corners. You can even lightly score the plastic and bend it at an angle to get into even tighter places, and of course, it is easy to modify into custom shapes like a small triangle. If you have a shop that sells to professional auto painters near you, all kinds of goodies are available there - sandpaper 600 grit and finer (1000, 1500 and 2000 are pretty common now), as well as some of the advance catalyzed putties that take the place of the spot putty. 2. On the Dremel tool meltdown, the final word is that even at the lowest setting, polystyrene is probably going to melt - the tool just turns too fast for the material. You can minimize this by your choice of a cutter. For example, a smaller diameter cutter will run at a slower speed at the cutting edge than a larger one at a given rpm. This may not make sense on first reading, but think about it. Also, a cutter with a smaller number of cutting edges will reduce heat build up, at the cost of surface finish. The sharper the cutter, the less heat build up too. Taking multiple light cuts is better than one deep cut. Better to reduce the amount of heat build up, since it is very hard to remove it once it is created , unless you have an air compressor and can direct a stream of cooling air at the cutter head - even this does not work really well with the soft, gummy materials. Kurt Greiner SeaPhoto Maritime Photography Now with online ordering! http://www.modelersboatyard.com/seaphoto -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Kurt Van Dahm Subject: Scale chain >> Anyone know of a source for scale bicycle chain, specifically 1:16? << Ken: Try the RR section of the hobby shop and Grandt Line makes a whole bunch of drive system parts meant for trains. Lots of gear boxes, etc. One of the products in this line is a drive chain system that IIRC might be close to 1/16 scale. The Walther's RR catalog also lists this product line. Kurt Van Dahm Westmont, IL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Kurt Van Dahm Subject: Orange Peel Finish Try automotive Rubbing compound. It is meant to smooth the surface of paints and it might work with an orange peel problem. There are two types of rubbing compound. One is coarser and is orange/brown in color. The other is finer and is white in color. You want the coarser. orange rubbing compound. I believe the white is called polishing compound, but you don't want it whatever the proper name is. If this doesn't work you might have to strip the paint from that area and start over. Rubbing compound is quite capable of taking off all the paint so go carefully. Kurt Van Dahm Westmont, IL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Tim Stoneman Subject: HMS HERO/HMCS CHAUDIERE/HMS DUNCAN Volume 2 of Lenton's book indicates that destroyers with pendant numbers starting with 'D' ('flag D superior' in signal-speak!) (such as DUNCAN - D99 in 1939) changed to 'I' during 1940, whilst, as far as I know, flag H superior remained unchanged until 1945. Thus it is likely that the photo referred to IS of DUNCAN. If the detail can be discerned on the photo, look at the front of the bridge. HERO (CHAUDIERE) was one of the 2 'H' class destroyers with the angled bridge front, fitted to all classes of fleet destroyers from the 'I's onwards up to and including the 'Battle' class (including the ex-Brazilian and Turkish ships, but excluding INGLEFIELD), whereas DUNCAN had the earlier flat-fronted bridge. The only photo I have seen of DUNCAN in camouflage is in Lenton's earlier work, showing her in a Western Approaches scheme. Tim Stoneman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: David Rinker Subject: Desperately seeking Waveline HMS QE(1915) 1/700 Can any of you fine folks help me in tracking this model kit down? Even if all you can do is suggest a source that might be good for me to check with from time to time, any little bit would help. Thanks, David Durham, NC -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Norman Alfred Sells Subject: Scale Model (UK) (HMS NORFOLK) Hi SMML'ers Just for your information here is reply I have forwarded on to Luis Verissimo re his query in Vol 627 item 28. I hope that it may be of interest or help to anyone else in the SMML 'Clan'............... >> Hi Luis I contacted the Forces Careers Office in Canterbury for you and the model is of HMS NORFOLK one of the modern 'County' Type 42 class (batch 2) destroyers. Sirmar Semi Kits make 1:96, (52") scale model kit of HMS EXETER (Siter ship of NORFOLK) which is priced at £280.41 (UK) probably like many others in the range suitable for r/c. It was seen advertised in the "MODEL BOATS" magazine a very good UK model magazine - have you read it? Its a magazine with good tips and hints etc for all marine modellers. HMS EXETER was featured in full page spread with details etc in the July issue of the 'Navy News' magazine which comes out every month and is a good buy re information of current RN ships as well as photos ships going back through previous conflicts etc. Also many advertisments for naval items & memorabelia, crests, badges, shields, photo's, cap tallies etc. One year susbscription to this magazine is £18.50 which includes postage to US/CANADA/Australia, & Europe. (UK annual subs = £15.00 inc postage) Enquiries should be made to :- Navy News, Buisness Manager, HMS Nelson, Portsmouth, Hampshire, England PO1 3HH Hope that this is of some help & that you enjoyed your visit to Kent << All the Best .......... Norman from a balmy warm Kent (Garden of England) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Max Loosli Subject: Re: WW ONE ROYAL NAVY COLOURS >> I heard that John Snyder, has recently come into possession of a source for WWI paint chips.. and he was curious as to whether anyone out there might be interested in these? << Oh I think so ......! Regards, Max Loosli From a hot and sunny Chandlers Ford in the UK ..... see it doesn't only rain here! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Michael Czibovic" Subject: Broadsides G'day y'all- My understanding of why the firing order of the guns was staggered was not because of stresses to the hull but because of shell proximity. The vortexes coming off the projectiles in flight caused buffeting that threw off the trajectories. This was rectified by adding a simple time delay into the center gun's firing circuit. I've also read that the ship moves sideways about twenty feet after one of these belches. These bits are from memory so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Mike Czibovic Corsair Armada Productions -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: PASO34@webtv.net (Andy Greer) Subject: Helping fellow SMMLer Hello to everyone outthere on the list(wherever you may be). I have just purchased some kits and have some questions. I just bought the Lindberg 1/535 USS Yorktown(CV-10) kit, the 1/700 Tamiya kits HMS Hood and IJN Musashi. Has anyone built these kits(either of them) and if so any hints on problems, paint, PE, detailing, etc. I am especially curious about paint for the Musashi(I have never done a painted Japanese ship model). The Musashi model is unbelievable at the number of parts it has so it will probably be last. More than likely these will be done in Model Masters paints so if you can refer specific names or numbers for the bottles to use it would be great. The Hood box shows her in a one-tone(peacetime?) so I will probably paint her in that color. Any help would be greatly appreciated and I believe someone has been posting about these kits lately. Thanks. P.S. For a ship with teakwood decks, there was only two ways for it to be anything but gray. One was to paint it a light color(which I know the USN didn't do in wartime on BBs) and the other was to give it a good holystoning(the book USS New Jersey: The Navy's bi guns has a picture in the book of the deck undergoing holystoning during the ship's delployment off Vietnam, so yes, even today, the teak still has to be cleaned the old-fashioned way here in the 1990s to get that "inspection" tan. Andy "I'll never reach my destination if I never try so I will sail my vessel until the river runs dry" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Mike Settle Subject: Re: Orange Peel Finish and Dremel Moto-Tool Meltdown >> 1) abrasive pastes: I am getting ready to paint one of my models and noticed that the spray primer had left an "orange peel" finish in a few places. I would like to smooth the finish in these areas without using sandpaper (which obscures delicate surface detail) or steel wool (very hard to work with in small places), and without removing the primer from the entire model (since the problem exists in only a small number of places). One technique I thought might work is to use a toothbrush to apply an abrasive paste of some sort, scrubbing the part lightly until the paint finish is smooth. Has anyone tried such a technique, and could they recommend an abrasive paste of some sort for this purpose? Please don't suggest tooth paste; I've tried it, and it is not abrasive enough! 2) I have achieved very satisfactory results using my Dremel moto-tool when working with resin, both as a low-tech milling tool and lathe. However, whenever I use it on polystyrene kits it melts the plastic. I'm using the fixed speed moto-tool with a Dremel rheostat at the lowest setting (the Dremel catalog says you can't use the rheostat with the variable speed moto-tool -- which I also have). How can I further reduce the RPMs to reduce the friction and heat build-up that causes the melting? (Yes, I've tried moving the grinding/cutting bit around while I work, but this is not always possible.) << 1) Try automotive rubbing compound, available at automotive parts stores. It is used in body shops on cars to smooth rough spots and overspray when a car is painted. It comes in a couple of different grades or grits. I think that the white kind is the finer of the two. 2) You might try using a regular variable speed drill. I have occasionally turned plastic in one, and they will run slow enough not to melt the plastic. Mike Settle I am not agent #1908 of the non-existent Lumber Cartel (tinlc)tm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Tiny a/c decals For small white stars in various sizes, get thee hence to thy closest hobby shop carrying a good selection of model railroad decals. A number of railroads used white stars on the ends of the axles on the drive wheels of steam locomotives. These are available in decal form, in varying sizes; one or more should fit your needs. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "John Rule" Subject: IPMS Rusty says about forming an Aussie IPMS. >> I would assume you would have draw up a Constitution, set dues pricing and the like. I don't know how you would handle a Nationals since Australia is split by such massive distances of outback, but that's your problem. You're more familiar with Australia than any of us non-Aussies. << Interesting point of view but it would seem that the USA is also split by massive distances, if not geographically at least philosophically. John Rule (speaking as an ex. patriot Brit from neutral Canada) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Mogami Turret tops MIKUMA was certainly not alone. There is a much-published periscope photo of a sinking Japanese DD that shows a red hinomaru on a white field on a fore turret top. Now, the question as to whether--and when--MOGAMI carried that marking may cost you a good bit of research time to answer conclusively. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "msyoung" Subject: WW1 RN Colors Shane, Count me as a excited positive vote for Snyder's release of WWI RN colors. Mike Young Springfield, MO -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Robert Writt" Subject: Attaching rigging lines to ship decks Fellow modellers, I am about to rig a ship for the first time and I would very much appreciate your help. I believe that have a good handle on what materials to use for the rigging (e.g. stretched sprue, invisible tread, fly fishing line, etc.), and what glues to use to attach them to the yard arms (e.g., super glue), from reading the daily SMML over the last several months. However, I would kindly appreciate from the SMML readership some proven ideas on how to attach the lines to flat decks where there is no easy attachment point. Any input would be greatly appreciateded. Thanks, Bob Writt St. Catharines, ON Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Missouri broadside I don't remember ever seeing anything in print about staggering the fire of main guns in a broadside to avoid overstressing the hull of a BB (or any other ship, for that matter). What I HAVE read, many times in many sources, is that the main battery guns were sequenced to fire slightly delayed from each other to avoid the problem of the projectiles "kissing" (i.e., colliding or sideswiping) in flight, which would result in a fall of shot nowhere near where intended. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: Lisa and Bill Wiseman Subject: Re: Abrasive pastes and Dremel tools. Michael, 1. I've had success with Jewelers rouge and a cloth wheel on my dermel tool to polish out surface blems iin primer and in metal finishes. Jewelers Rouge comes in several "grits" like sand paper. It's a thick paste in a tube and can be found at better Home/ Hardware outlets. 2. I've rigged a "dimmer" switch on a gang box outlet for my Dremel to slow it down. Been using it like that for years without trouble from the tool or the switch. You'll need a replacement wall outlet, a dimmer and a junction box and a power cord and plug. Follow the enclosed directions for the dimmer switch and use it to control the power to the outlet, attach the power cord and plug, mount both pieces in the junction box, and you're set. Plug the Dremel into the dimmer controlled outlet, set the Dremel on it's lowest variable speed setting and slowly bring the dimmer up until you get the desired revs. Works like a charm. Good luck, Doc Wiseman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: Orange Peel Finish and Dremel Moto-Tool Meltdown >> 2) I have achieved very satisfactory results using my Dremel moto-tool when working with resin, both as a low-tech milling tool and lathe. However, whenever I use it on polystyrene kits it melts the plastic. I'm using the fixed speed moto-tool with a Dremel rheostat at the lowest setting (the Dremel catalog says you can't use the rheostat with the variable speed moto-tool -- which I also have). How can I further reduce the RPMs to reduce the friction and heat build-up that causes the melting? (Yes, I've tried moving the grinding/cutting bit around while I work, but this is not always possible.) << In many ways, you are describing a problem that the Dremel just isn't designed to address. You can slow it further with a different "rheostat" but you will suffer from a tremendous loss of torque, essentially creating a lower speed limit that may still be too high. I have had better results using a "Foredom" type flex shaft tool in place of the dremel. It is simply designed to run at lower speed, and has a much more powerful motor so that the torque falloff is not as serious. Perhaps the best solution would be for modelers to pester Dremel to come out with a low speed Dremel. Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Peter Hall" Subject: Atlantic Models News Hi Everyone, I have received one or two enquiries just recently as to whether or not I will be releasing a Charles F. Adams class DDG in 1/350 scale. The answer is Yes!! certainly, and as a joint release Perth class destroyer just for the Aussies, addressing any differences on the way. The only problem at the moment is that I have no drawings to work from. Is there anyone out there who can help point me in the right direction or even supply me with a set? Next item is no doubt one that will please quite a few of the non standard scale modellers, the vote for a ship model that was conducted with wonderful enthusiasm by Felix Bustelo, and resulted in the 'Normandie' coming out tops. It didnt do so well when it actually came to gathering in orders, I would think because of the price of the monster. However, HMS Dido came second, and has received a fair amount of interest. As it will not be prohibitive on cost it will be built and cast in 1/600 scale regardless. The expected release date will be early to mid 2000 and the price in the 45 to 55 British Pounds bracket. The Russian Battlecruiser "Kirov" in 1/350 scale is progressing slowly at the moment due to the fact that there has not been a great deal of interest shown in this subject, probably again due to the shear size and the cost. But never the less work on it is continuing. Other proposed Russian/Soviet subjects have been put on the back burner for the time being due to lack of interest. The Knox class Frigate again in 1/350 scale is making good progress and the pattern should be completed soon. The Trinity House Lightship fittings set in Photo etch has been halted completely for now. I did not realise at first just how few of these kits actually hit the market from Revells re release. Maybe if they do another batch I will go ahead. Thats all for now folks. Just remember that if you wish to place an order for any of the above forthcoming releases please contact Caroline at White Ensign Models mailto:xdt22@dial.pipex.com Best Wishes Peter Hall Atlantic Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume