Subject: SMML08/08/99VOL631 Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 01:19:04 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: The Mighty Hood 2: Re: HMS Warspite 3: Salvos 4: Re: Judging, Paint Schemes, Color, and Cookies 5: Re: Judging difficulty 6: Re: Need good judges 7: Daddy was a shirker!! 8: Broadside firing 9: Iron Shipwrights Tug Kit 10: Re: Atlantic Models 1/350 Kirov 11: Re: decals for small scale aircraft 12: HMS Duncan? Saga 13: Re: Use of Hinomaru on turret tops, etc. 14: Flight decks 15: Iowa's 16 inch gun salvos 16: General Banter 17: Re: Warspite 1944 18: Catalina torpedo bomber 19: Re: Catalina torpedo bomber 20: Other modeller's lists 21: Bollards and Ergonomics? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: SMML Backissues 2: Model Expo sale -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: AllenFW2@aol.com Subject: The Mighty Hood Tamiya Hood: The main colour was positively AP507B (available on the excellent Snyder & Short RN paint chip set #1...BUY IT!). We are indeed working on an article describing how to detail the kit...unfortunately, it's taking a bit longer than we expected (the bit on modifying the enclosed shelter deck requires photos to be taken as I perform each step...this is very time consuming as my wife rarely work on my models!). I noticed that the Hood web site was mentioned in the last SMML (thanks for the plugs guys!). It's currently at http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/2966/ Note: It will be moving to www.hmshood.com as soon as our hosting service permits it...they're having database problems which are preventing us from transferring the files from Geocities. By the way, if any of you have any ideas or inputs regarding Hood (as well as the aforementioned photos of Hood models in any scale), please let me know. Also, if any of you are interested in joining the actual veterans' group for Hood (The HMS Hood Association), please let me know as well...the former crew would love to expand membership right now. Frank Allen Editor, Battle Cruiser Hood (official web site of the HMS Hood Association). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Re: HMS Warspite Hi Chris According to Raven and Roberts (British Battleships of World War 2) the Warspite received her alterations after the glider bomb attack in 1943. Two of the twin 20mm replaced the 36 inch searchlights from the signal bridge. The locations of the others are not known. At the same time 4 singles were removed (it is thought those on A and Y turrets) and the six inch battery removed and plated over. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Salvos The Royal Navy actually preferred the full salvo because of their experience in World War One. Certainly the Courageous class were considered inadequate because of this (2 x twin turrets). The full salvo was considered ideal for spotting purposes. The Italian Navy in WW2 actually employed the split salvo method but also placed their guns too near each other. Consequently practically all of their guns suffered from shell interference in flight. There were also other troubles which meant that the salvo spread was frequently too wide. Triple turrets saved weight which is the main reason for installing them. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Judging, Paint Schemes, Color, and Cookies OK, OK, about matching color, and digging into my coursebook from "Fundamentals of Color", put on by Kollmorgen/Macbeth, the friendly folks who manufacture the Munsell Book of Color: In 1931 the International Commission on Illumination (CIE) defined the spectral energy curves of certain artificial light sources, and that of daylight. That led to the development of standard illuminants (as defined by their color temperature, measured in degrees Kelvin) used in color instruments: incandescent, cool white fluorescent, average daylight, and north sky daylight (6500K) [defined as light from an overcast sky at mid-morning as seen through a north-facing window]. It is north sky daylight that is the norm for color matching in the US. Such color matching is normally done under controlled laboratory conditions. If you want to drop some big $, Kollmorgen/Macbeth will sell you their "Spectralight", a light box equipped with various lamps to duplicate different types of light including 6500K daylight. Such instruments, meeting Standard D1729 of the American Society of Testing Materials (ASTM) are used by paint companies and manufacturers for whom color matching and consistency is critical. When we match our paint samples, whether original paint chips or the 1929 Munsell Book of Color, we begin by first reversing the yellowing and darkening that affects all oil-based paints over time (and THAT part, learned in historic preservation technology training courses during my career I won't go into). The samples are then placed into a spectrophotometer (a photometric device for the measurement of spectral transmittance, spectral reflectance, or relative emittance at discrete wavelengths) for analysis. The spectrophotometer reading produces a printout of suggested combinations of tinting media that will produce the correct color in a given volume of mixed paint. Our paintmeister uses that to mix the initial batch, which is rarely spot-on. He then, using his own training, makes subtle additions of tinting media, keeping careful records and making brushouts for each mix variant; the brushouts are dried and then compared to the original sample in a light box similar to the Spectralight and meeting ASTM Standard D1729, under daylight 6500K illumination, until an exact match is obtained; this last part of the process can consume more than an hour per color. We then also compare the match under incandescent and cool white fluorescent illumination. The reason for this latter is that some colors tend toward metamerism, a condition where a pair of colors matches under one light source but differs under another. We have had metamerism crop up, and it makes our paint guy tear his hair, because he then has to go back and essentially produce the same color by the use of different tinting media to solve the problem; fortunately, it hasn't happened too often. The end result is that our paint chips should match the original sample color under all light sources. The paintmeister then enters all the mixing data into the store's computer system, so that whenever we need another can of paint, the computer-controlled mixing maching will have the exact data; he also prints out a label with those data and affixes it to every c So, there's the quick-and-dirty course on the background of color matching, and how we produce our chips. If we're not accurate, it isn't for lack of effort. Questions? John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Judging difficulty You're right about it not being mentioned in the judges handbook. However, we do take into consideration the complexity and difficulty in the construction of ship models. Nine times out of ten execution of the "basics" separate the top three from the others in the category. When deciding between the top three we really get into nitpicking looking for the tiniest flaws on the models. It's at this point when the difficulty factor become important. At the "What Judges Look For" seminar I made it know that bigger doesn't mean better. It just means there is a lot more to go wrong on a larger, more complex model. Here's an example. This year at Orlando there were very nice USS Oregon kits entered. I didn't judge the category but here's how I saw it. Both were very nicely done but one had completely scratchbuilt real wood deck beautifully done. Using the difficulty factor you mention was a deciding factor in the final outcome because of the wood deck and how well it was executed. I guess the difficulty factor is sort of an unwritten rule we are all aware of. Rusty White IPMS Head ship judge -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Need good judges >> What are you saying Rusty.....we aint no stinkin' good! ;-} (Explanation for the thickheaded conspiracy types....ITS A JOKE!!!!) << I know I know, but seriously here for a minute. Depending on what part of the country the nationals are held some ship judges won't make the trip for one reason or another. So it never hurts to have too many qualified ship judges. Rusty White IPMS Head ship judge -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Bob Pearson" Subject: Daddy was a shirker!! Alright Shane .. now you've done it ... Lorna, Make him tell us Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Lamar Jones Subject: Broadside firing For whatever it is worth, in Ronald Bassett's fine book SHEFFIELD, page 80, concerning the shelling of Genoa, Midshipman David Cobb recorded that "The HE shells we were using had very sensitive fuses, and the projectiles from the centre guns of our turrets were frequently being exploded, at the muzzle, by the blast of the two outer guns. These premature bursts were not only wasteful but could also be very dangerous to our destroyers on the engaged side. After fourteen broadsides, Sheffield shifted to salvo firing, and we continued firing salvoes for the remainder of the bombardment." All this was in 1941, January I believe. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Bruce Buchner" Subject: Iron Shipwrights Tug Kit At the US Nationals I picked up an Iron Shipwrights S.S. Brooklyn Steam Powered Harbor Tug 1910-1945. It is well molded and you get two complete tugs in the kit. The kit directions show where to put the etch but give no clue as to color schemes. They have a xerox photo of a USS Choctaw in 1898 which dosen't fit the time period for the kit and it seems to have a black hull and gray upperworks. Does anyone have any good color schemes for a Navy tug? I would like to do one as a WWII tug and the other a Pre war or WWI. None of my references cover harbor craft. This question is a little off topic but I have always wondered how they put a large ship into drydock. You see many pictures of them high and dry supported by timbers but how do they make sure they have all right timbers in all the right places before they pump out the water especially if the ship has never been docked there before? Does the ship carry some sort of docking plan that specifies where to put everything so the hull is adequately supported and not damaged? Perhaps use divers? I can see where a mistake could be a real disaster. Thanks, Bruce Buchner -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Peter Hall" Subject: Re: Atlantic Models 1/350 Kirov Wayne Fulp wrote: >> I read Peter Hall's update on Atlantic Models upcoming releases and wanted to comment on it. I hate to see a lack of interest in a new kit cause that release to be canceled or pushed back. << Hi Wayne, Fear ye not, it is not through lack of interest that the Kirov is proceding slowly, but one or two problems that have been encountered in the casting process of such a big beast. The problems have by and large been sorted out and a way of hollowing the hull in the mould to stop heat distortion had to be thought up. We also had to cut down on the ammount of resin being used,as it was getting beyond affordability. A little bit of time spent now,getting rid of the wrinkles will ensure that the end product will be well worth waiting for. Nobody likes warped parts or air bubbles. >> I am very excited to see a 1/350 Kirov kit coming out as it is one of the most influential post WWII ships ever built. I know that the size of this kit will drive the costs up but,if I can afford it, I will definitely purchase one of these kits. I don'teven know what the preliminary costs were estimated to be. << You are very right about the influence that this particular ship had on the maritime world. Apart from being a very large ship of its class, it was designed with the purpose of taking out Carrier battle groups, and has all the weapons and sensors to do so in some short order, including anti submarine. Even it's defensive armament seems formidable. Stealthy definately and Nuclear powered to boot. Wow!!!! Anyway,all this aside,the original estimated price was for approx £300 British Pounds US$480, which will include all the resin parts, an extensive set of Photo etch details, assembly instruction booklet and hopefully a set of decals. Unfortunately the model is Waterline. This is because I have not been able to obtain underwater details and drawings, not because I do not want to produce it as such. If you do have the necessary details (How else would you scratch build a lower hull) How about letting me do the job for you? >> I think a lot of resin ship kit builders wait until the kit is ready to actually place an order. Unfortunately the "coming soon" lists of ship kits from resin manufacturers would complete most of the worlds navies. I have sent checks, faxed credit card information, and waited for as long as a year on many kits that never were produced. There have been several kits on the Warship site with pictures of the master patterns and pricing that have just gone away. Every kit manufacturer in the industry has an upcoming release list that would take years to complete. My point is that there is probably a lot more demand for a lot of kits than is initially known due to the way our hobby works. There are a couple of words that excite resin modelers more than anything else, "IN STOCK". << When a new kit is proposed by us manufacturers, we have to do a certain ammount of market research first to see if the modellers out there actually want the kit. Large kits like the 1/350 Kirov, HMS Hood, HMS Repulse etc require even larger sums of capital investment. This means we need to be fairly sure that we are going to sell enough of these to at least have them pay for themselves in terms of material costs. Smaller kits are not usually a problem in this way and are generally produced as and when the time allows. And it does take quite a bit of time to build a pattern as well. Imagine how it feels to spend all that time building those patterns and putting the kits together and then finding that nobody is interested in that subject. It happens. But thats life. If a manufacturer asks for feedback on a proposed kit in the way of order placements or whatever, it is to see just how many of you really want the kit. If you dont speak up and register your interest at least, in the particular subject, then we just dont know. Balls we may have, but Crystal they are not.!!!! The Classic example is the recent demise of the Proposed 1/600 scale 'Normandie'. A lot of people were interested in the kit, but when it came down to it only 5 put in an order. Yes there may be more out there that want to wait until release but also there may not be. From the reaction to the request for orders I was not willing to take the risk. I know I said way back, that I would try to cater for the minority groups of modellers, but there are limits. So remember guys an galls, If you want something thats a proposed release, lets here from you, otherwise silence could let a prize winner slip by. Best wishes Peter Hall Atlantic Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: Re: decals for small scale aircraft Contact me off-line, I'll make you a set of decals for your aircraft. Cheers, Bob Santos -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "John Rule" Subject: HMS Duncan? Saga Now this what I think SMML is all about. The saga of HMS Duncan or whatever continues. I will be attempting to post the photo to SMML tomorrow maybe when I've figured out the complexities of scanning. Once it has been posted perhaps we will be able to identify I-99 definitively. It definitely isn't in Western Approaches camouflage but in an Admiralty Disruptive which Mr Raven can identify. It also definitely has the pennant I 99. Wish me the best with my scanning! (Is it painful?) John Rule -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: b29@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Use of Hinomaru on turret tops, etc. The use of the Hinomaru (i.e. rising sun) on the tops of turrets etc, appears to date from just before Midway, and apparently continued in practice until late 1942 or even into 1943. There are not a lot of photos that show such markings, but several very clear ones do exist which show that the practice was used on ships of various sizes. There is an excellent photo of CHIYODA in Chinese waters possibly during 1942 which clearly shows a large Hinomaru painted on the cover of the hanger deck. It was reported by a number of U.S. pilots at Midway that the Japanese CV's had large ones painted on their flight decks, tho there are no known photos of Japanese origin which show them. Photos taken by U.S. planes at Midway of several of the CV's are not determinative, though it does appear from the photos that they may have existed. Since the photos were taken by B-17's at high altitude and are in black and white, one cannot be certain what is on the deck. The famous photo of HIRYU after she was hit cannot solve this, as the forward flight deck, where the markings were allegedly located was destroyed. I have tried to confirm the existence of these markings from a Japanese source but I have never found one. Since a number of pilots claimed seeing these markings, I tend to believe it, but as we know, one's eyes can play tricks. Falling from the sky at a moving target that is shooting at you is not the best set of circumstances for accurate visual determination. U.S. aerial photos taken at the Battle of Santa Cruz in October 1942 clearly show a hinomaru on a white background on #2 turret of CHIKUMA, and there are photos of one of the MOGAMI's with such markings at the time of Midway. I have clear aerial photos of HARUNA and KONGO showing them coming into Tokyo Bay in the Fall of 1942 with such markings on their turrets. It is apparent however in these photos that the markings are NOT painted on, but instead are flags stretched across the turret tops. These markings were not reported by U.S. pilots prior to Midway, certainly not at Coral Sea, nor do they show in Japanese photos prior to that time. They may have been applied because of events at Coral Sea, where it is said that Japanese pilots mistook U.S. CV's for their own. Prior to Coral Sea, there are no reports of misidentification of their own ships by Japanese pilots. Other than the Midway carriers, there is no evidence that hinomarus were painted on any other carriers. No reports or photos exist of such markings on any other carriers, although it was quite common for American painters to do battle scenes showing such markings. The Japanese may have ceased the practice on all their ships after the Guadalcanal campaign, as there are no signs of these markings in photos taken in 1944-5. None of the aerials taken at Leyte show such markings, and ships sunk at Kure, etc. did not have them. Perhaps the Japanese decided that the practice simply gave American pilots a bullseye to aim at. Several pilots at Midway, including Dick Best, claimed to have used the large white bordered red hinomarus as aiming points. Paul Jacobs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Sctrtrsh" Subject: Flight decks Having served on several big deck gators, I can safely say that the hangar deck is painted dark grey non skid. The color I use on my models is Tesotrs Dark Gloss Navy Grey, dull coated. I have several pictures of big deck gators, and no two pictures represent the same color of the flight deck. They vary from dark to very light mottled grey. The hangar deck, not being exposed to the elements retains its dark color. It is non skid to prevent the aircraft and other wheeled machinery from sliding about the deck. I once saw a Marine who tripped over a helicopter tie down chain whilst jogging on the flight deck, and the area where he made contact with the deck was quite skun up. It is a very rought surface. I am sure that the carriers use the same type of paint and surface in their hangar decks. Hope this helps. Mark Krumrey MGYSGT USMC Ret. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Way, David L" Subject: Iowa's 16 inch gun salvos Some additional general information regarding 16 inch gun trivia can also be found in Malcom Muir's book on the Iowa Class Battleships. With regards to the latest "16 inch" topics, during a slavo, "The gun in each turret fire at an interval of .06 seconds, with the left gun firing first, then the right, and finally the center. The delay is to ensure that the projectiles do not interfere aerodynamically with each other in flight." The myth of the warship moving sideways after firing a projectile has surfaced again! The Iowa's 16" guns actually recoil 4 to 4 1/2 feet in it's gun housing / turret. The illusion of the ship moving sideways, is created from pictures showing the water being ruffled / pushed by the blast pressure from the 16 inch guns. To my horror, one of the sailors interviewed on the Discovery Channels Battleship episode even said the ship moved sideways. I suppose he felt the 57,000 ton ship move sideways while on duty in the boiler room........ Dave Way, Huntington Beach, CA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Jeff Herne" Subject: General Banter Hi gang, Just returned from the South Street Seaport Scale Ship Festival, brought along about 8 ships for display. Didn't meet any SMMLies, maybe today (Sunday). I did meet Keith Bender, from Connecticut, a prolific shipmodeler that I don't think is a SMMLie, but will be soon enough...There were about 60 or so models, including 3 large Iowas, all from my ship club. The weather was fine, John Q. Public was actually civil and kept little Johnnie's hands from mangling the models. A great day, hopefully as good tomorrow... If anyone in the NYC area has nothing to do after reading SMML this morning, get yourselves to the South Street Seaport and pay us a visit, it's free, and parking is within 100 yards, although at Manhattan rates. The show runs from 1pm to 5pm, and your truly is located under the Museum Tent directly in front of the Peking. Hope to see you there!!! Jeff Herne -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "John Sutherland" Subject: Re: Warspite 1944 Chris Drage asked; >> Apparently, according to our Alan (Ensign 4), HMS Warspite had four 20mm singles replaced with 4 x 20mm powered twins in June '44. But which were they? I assume that these would have been prior to D-Day as the AA armament would have been beefed up while she was a sitting target out there in the Channel. I can't find any suitable pics or drawings. Any chaps or chappesses able to help....? << Chris, Anatomy of a Ship - WARSPITE - has a photograph on page 34 showing two twin 20mm up on the rear superstructure. These appear to have replaced the two singles that were placed there in 1942 and 1943. It is credited to a Mr J Dix and is supposedly taken at the Normandie landings. The quality is not great and I don't have a scanner anyway but presumably your local Library can borrow a copy on inter-loan? Raven's British Battleships on WWII which has nice placement diagrams claims that two of the four twin 20mm were located on the signal platform in a spot which would have them replacing the big 36in searchlights. However they offer no knowledge of the location of the other two nor show any photographic or other evidence of where they got this from - so I would go with the shot in Anatomy - especially as the sad shot on p35 of Anatomy of the great ship on the way to the scrapyard seem to show the giant searchlights still in place? Hope this helps. John Sutherland Porirua, NZ where it is beautifully fine today and a (balmy???) 10 deg C (a lot better than the icy rainshowers yeaterday!) and warmed up by news of the hiding the "Black Caps" are giving the English in cricket! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Catalina torpedo bomber Hi All; I`m sure you have all read about various Catalina recon. flying boats (PBY5-A) being used as torpedo bombers at various times in WWII in the Pacific. Does anyone know of any photographs of aircraft with the torpedos being carried? I presume 1 or 2 were carried slung underwing? How about drawings or descriptions of the improvised racks and release gear used? I don`t recall if any Catalinas made successful attacks, I`m sure someone will know right off. Chuck Duggie Exhausted from staying at the hospital all day with Wanda -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Paolo Desalvo Subject: Re: Catalina torpedo bomber >> I`m sure you have all read about various Catalina recon. flying boats (PBY5-A ) being used as torpedo bombers at various times in WWII in the Pacific. << The best known torpedo action performed by Catalinas is for sure the one performed in the night between 3 and 4 June 1942 by four Catalinas based at Midway. They went searching for the invasion convoy that was sighted in the 3 June. Three of them spotted with the radar the invasion convoy, then they perfomed a visual attack. One of them hit the oiler Akebono Maru while the other missed the ships they attacked. The book "A GLOURIOUS PAGE IN OUR HISTORY - THE BATTLE OF MIDWAY 4-6 JUNE 1942" reports that they were loaded with just one torpedo, but this means nothing, since may be that their bomb load was influenced by the distans they had to cover. The fourth lost contact with the other three and was unable to spot the convoy. >> Does anyone know of any photographs of aircraft with the torpedos being carried? I presume 1 or 2 were carried slung underwing? << I've checked onto several books, but none has a photo of an armed Catalina, however onto the book "A gloriuos page ..." there are two interesting photos. One is of a B26 at the parcking with a torpedo under the fuselage and is declared as a plane based at Adak in Alaska (page 73). The other photo is of a Catalina (page 211) that is dropping a deep charge from one of its wing pilons. >> How about drawings or descriptions of the improvised racks and release gear used? << However I think that the best book you can check for these information is an "In Action" onto the Catalina. >> I don`t recall if any Catalinas made successful attacks, I`m sure someone will know right off. << I don't know any other torpedo action, however the Australian's Catalina, late in the war, specialized in mining operations. Ciao Paolo -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: GrafSpee34@aol.com Subject: other modeller's lists Hi I have a question about the cockpit arrangement of an aicraft (the Henschel 123). My question for this list is, are there any similar e-mail discussion groups for aircraft modellers with a daily e-mail format? And, while I am at it, what about armor? I would sign up for other lists right away. Don't get me wrong, I am a loyal ship modeller, but I love getting mail! Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Greg Lee Subject: Bollards and Ergonomics? Hi All, For those of you who remember me - Yes, I am still alive:-) I am really enjoying lurking these days. Anyways, 2 questions: 1: I just pulled a new 1/350 resin hull out of the box only to find the bollards have not formed in the casting process - Is anybody producing these as a seperate item? Anybody have any ideas on how to scratch build them? 2: I have noticed neck and shoulder pain during long building sessions lately and I am sure its because of my workstation - does anybody have any thoughts on what the ideal bench/chair ratio might be? I found sitting on the floor working on the living room coffee table is comfy, but Mrs takes offense to Flat Haze Grey on the timber stained finish - you know, sometimes, I just dont understand that woman :-). Where do you Build? Greg Lee (Listmaster on Hiatus) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Greg Lee Subject: RAN Tribals? Hi Again, I was just looking at HMCS Haida's Page and saw in the text the the RAN had some Tribals - does anybody know what they were called, where I can view some pics, and if any still exist? TIA Greg. Hi Greg, The RAN Tribals are as follows: HMAS Arunta, Bataan & Warramunga. They were comissioned in the following order Arunta - 1942, Warramunga - 1942 & Bataan - 1945. AFAIK, the only Tribal left is HMCS Haida. Some sites to check out would be: RAN Official Page: http://www.navy.gov.au/ Australian War Memorial: http://www.iwm.org.uk/index.htm Australian Maritime Museum, Darling Harbour: http://www.anmm.gov.au/ Regards, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Shane Subject: SMML Backissues Hi Gang, Well I'll be uploading another batch of backissues to the site, just as soon as this issue goes out. Vols 151 - 217 will be going up. This will make it approx 230 issues up there. Another batch will be going up in another couple of weeks. Hopefully, I'll be up to date within a couple of months - sorry about the delay. You can access the back issues at: http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/4712/volumes/ Regards, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Conan35@aol.com Subject: Model Expo sale Model Expo is having a 20% off sale on tools and paints. Sale ends at 8:00 pm on Monday. http://www.modelexpoinc.com Best Regards Rob Finley Web Site Mgr. Model Expo, Inc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume