Subject: SMML30/08/99VOL653 Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 02:36:13 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Sanding Tool 2: Warspite's Decks and Belfast's Decks 3: Re: Current model project 4: Re: OFFICERS' BATHS ON WARSHIPS 5: Re: Currently building 6: Re: Classic Warships Texas book 7: SMML Convention 8: Re:Heller 1/400 Charles De Gaulle 9: Yamato's boats 10: Re: USS SAVANNAH Color Scheme 11: Re: O'BANNON walkways 12: Warspite 13: Polish Destroyers GROM & BLYSKAWICA 14: ORP Mazur 15: Lutzow/Emden linoleum decks 16: Plastic Sheet for Water 17: Akitsushima camo paint 18: weathering 19: Matching Colors, Projects 20: Re: Current Projects 21: 1250 hints & tips wanted 22: British LSTs at Normandy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS Hi All, Well, based on the mail I've recieved so far, the consensus is overwhelmly in favour of keeping the title SMML - so we shall. Also, you all seem to want Lorna & I to carry on in the moderator role & we are happy to do so. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Max Loosli Subject: Re: Sanding Tool >> As the person said the sanding element is a bundle of glass fiber rods, I have used such a tool. As I dusted away the debris a got lots of little glass fiber shards embedded in the ends of my fingers. << Me too, hurts for ages. I believe the recommended approach is to use the tool with glass fibre rods wet, that way as the rods break they are held in suspension and are then rinsed away safely. Max Loosli -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Warspite's Decks and Belfast's Decks On the matter as to whether the wood decks of the Warspite were painted, reference the photo on pages 230 and 231 of British Battleships, I took a close look at the large size print that was used in the book, and it very much looks as if the wood areas of deck are the natural colour. The photo was printed a little on the dark side and when coupled with the sun being very low in the sky, (thus throwing long shadows down the deck), the effect when printed on the page makes it appear to be darker than it really is. I showed this to a famous author who was of the same mind as myself ie, that the wood decks are indeed left the natural colour, unlike that of the Belfast which in late 1942 WERE painted a dark grey for an undetermined period. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Current model project >> May I propose another survey? Current projects: what's everyone working on? << I am currently working on a 1/350 Classic Warships USS Salem for a client. Normally I don't mind sending models off once I finish them, but I'll have a tear in my eye when I send this one. This is a wonderful and highly detailed model to build. The two masts took more than 20 hours to build. They are literally covered with antennas, radar, foot rails, ladders and rails and are quite striking when added to the model. It also has just the right amount of "modern stuff" I like on my ship models including a helicopter. The capital guns are kits in themselves with tons of PE etch on each turret. It also has LOTS of delicate photo etched parts that add a lot to the model. It's about 95% complete and I'm regretting it more by the minute sending it to the client. I'm definitely going to buy one for myself and I would recommend this kit to anyone. Where else can you get 300 hours of enjoyment for $250.00! Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah, I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: HGYL@aol.com Subject: Re: OFFICERS' BATHS ON WARSHIPS Perhaps the correct definition is that Iowa is the only U.S. built warship with a bath tub in the captain's bathroom. Thanks, John Lambert, for the info regarding the bath on the early Flowers. I do not believe that baths for officers were all that unusual on RN ships in the first half of this century. Even the humble WW II built Bar class boom defence ships (as utilitarian as a ship could be ) had a bath for the officers. Harold Lincoln -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Marc Flake Subject: Re: Currently building Yet another survey response: Currently building the Revell-Germany Hindenburg, Glencoe Navy Blimp and Airfix Vosper MTB. Regarding this last, I'm going to be somewhat lazy and ask if anyone can furnish the actual camouflage codes to equate with the "light gray" and "sea gray" in the instructions? I've got the Snyder and Short chips, I just need the codes. Marc Flake -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Marc Flake Subject: Re: Classic Warships Texas book Just bought this book myself last weekend. It has lots of photos I've never seen. The aerial shots at various times in her career will be invaluable. There seems to be a gap, though. This concerns the anti-aircraft armament during her bombardment of Normandy and Cherbourg. In the book it implies that Texas was carrying the 1-inch quads instead of the 40mm quads and had not rearranged and added the 20mm armament so that galleries of six were carried on top of turrets 2 and 4. However, I've studied some (bad) pictures of Texas taken during her duel with the Cherbourg battery. I can make out a 20mm gallery atop turret 2 in one of the photos. As I will be buidling the Viking Texas at Chebourg, I would like to ask if there was anyone out there who could confirm the AA armament during this engagement. Otehrwise, I may be compelled to visit the in-laws, who live in Houston, about 10 miles from the venerable old lady parked at the San Jacinto battlefield. Marc Flake -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: CA139JOHNF@aol.com Subject: SMML Convention Hi Fellow Listmembers, It would seem that the intrest in a convention or meeting is gaining momentum. So let digress briefly. To clear up a couple of misunderstandings, the US Naval & Shipbuilding Museum is the operator of the USS Salem as a museum ship. The museum is located in Quincy, Massachusetts which is the first city south of Boston. The Museum/ship is sited in the yard where she was built, The Fore River Shipyard. Salem is due for some extensive work to commence late this fall. This work includes the establishment of public restrooms, new brow (funds permiting), electrical work, and a new paint job. Also if things go accourding to plan, next spring should see the opening of the Fore River Shipyard Historical Exhbit. As for the convention, how do list members feel about late next summer/early fall? I do not want conflict with any other major organized events that members want participate in. Since I am going on vacation in a few weeks, and the ship will be tied up for our annual Haloween "Haunted Ship". I would like to propose a day long planning meeting at the museum for interested participants during the first week in November, say on Saturday 6 November. Any interested SMML members let me know and I will set it up. That's all for now, John Frohock USNSM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Joseph W. Reyna" Subject: Re:Heller 1/400 Charles De Gaulle Jean-Paul and fellow SMMLiattes, I concur with Mssr. Binot's assessment of the DeGAULLE - good, but could be better. If Loren Perry at Gold Medal Models and Caroline Carter at White Ensign Models would consider a special photo-etched set for this ship, it would enhance it measurably. I am absolutely thrilled to see Heller issue a new kit, especially one of a carrier (my fav' subject). I'm also happy, but a bit perplexed, concerning Heller's marketing of their reissues, such as the ARROMANCHES. I plan to purchase an armful of these when they come out, as I did the ILLUSTRIOUS when they were available. My concern was that HMS ILLUSTRIOUS was issued for so short a period, and was only available from a few distributors. I'm still fielding requests from people wondering when Heller plans to reissue the HMS ILLUSTRIOUS!!!! Perhaps we need to be more vocal about our support of Heller and their issues/reissues, much as Felix Bustelo has done so well for Airfix regarding their 1/600 kit reissues. Does someone have an email address or snail mail address to Heller's marketing concern that we might address to encourage them to continue the new issues/reissues and to further distribute these kits in the US? Cheers all. Joe Reyna -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Loren Perry Subject: Yamato's boats According to Janusz Skulski's Anatomy of the Ship book on Yamato (see pg. 21), Yamato carried between 14 and 16 boats of various sizes. They were stowed in cylindrical hangars on either side of the hull with the openings visible about where the No. 3 turret's guns are. Overhead traveling cranes carried the boats out of their hangars and they were lowered with conventional pulleys (block and tackle) to the water. The GMM set currently available only has the simulated pulley sets provided. Unless the boats were actually in the process of being raised or lowered, they would be concealed from view. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: USS SAVANNAH Color Scheme I have never seen her in anything but MS22, nor any references to any other Measure. There's a photo of her in August '42 in Terzibaschitsch's US cruiser book, and she's in Ms.22 even then. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: O'BANNON walkways If you're going to paint them, make 'em dark gray. But heck, SMMLie Duane Fowler has the walkway decals available. Why do it the hard way? The decals are really fine work! John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Chris Drage" Subject: Warspite HI Peter, Regarding your comment to Leif >> This does not help you with the Warspite any, but it just so happens that I am also building the Airfix kit. If I can help you in any way with assembly of parts, or just location, please contact me off list and I will do the best I can. << Perhaps you can make the help and assistance public via the list so that others of us who are building Warspites can benefit from your expertise and knowledge ......? Just a thought. Incidentally, I am building WEM's 1:700 kit and modifying it for Warspite's '44 fit. Did anyone actually find out when those four, twin 20mm Oerlikons were fitted? Before or after the D-Day landings? Regards, Chris He tao rakau e taea te karo, tena he tao kupa kaore e taea te karo......(Te Reo Maori) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Norman Alfred Sells Subject: Polish Destroyers GROM & BLYSKAWICA Hello SMML I sent this message some days ago but it got lost in the system so here goes again....................... Re: GROM & BLYSKAWICA Although the following information is not 'model' orientated I hope it is of interest and gives some background to thse two ships and their history. Photographs of the ships and their construction came from the Whites Archives, Cowes Maritime Museum Both these ships were ordered by the pre-war Polish Government in 1935 and were designed, built and engined by Samuel White's at their shipyard at Cowes on the Isle of White (UK). The translation of the names given to them are 'Thunder' & 'Lightning'. Their yard build numbers were 1800 & 1801 respectively. GROM was launched on 20/07/1936 with her sister ship being launched 01/10/1939. A photo of GROM during her speed trials after completion show a large pennant letter 'G' on her bows just aft of anchor and between that and 'A' turret. Their trials speeds were in region of 38 to 39.4 knots ! Armament comprised of 7 x 120mm main guns and 6 x 550mm torpedo tubes. After outbreak of WWII and defeat of Poland both ships, then operating with the Free Polish Forces were attached to and served with ships of the Royal Navy. GROM & her sister ship initially served patrolling Dutch & Belgian coasts in winter of 1939. Both later served with battleships RODNEY & VALIANT prior to invasion of Norway. On 4/5/1940 GROM was attacked in Rombaksfjord, sustaining direct hits from two bombs sinking with loss of 59 brave Polish crew. BLYSKAWICA was back at Samuel Whites yard at Cowes undergoing refit when on the night of 4/5/1942 the town was subject of a heavy air raid. At the time she was fully armed which was as a result of a government directive that all ships should retain ammunition when in port (not allowed in peacetime). With over 220 tons of h.e. and incendary dropped on the area the crew manned and fought their guns all night with the result that the guns became so hot that water had to be played on them to cool them down. The gun crews were still at their post at dawn. One hero of the night was a engine driver Albert Lockyer aged over 65! who at great risk, refusing orders to take to the shelters during the raid, manned his exposed generator to make sure that the destroyer had adequate power. The actions of the ships crew on that night are not forgotten in the saving of a large part of the town being destroyed. A plaque was unveiled in 1982 on The Parade, West Cowes to commemorate the gallant efforts of the ship in saving the town by its residents. BLYSKAWICA is preserved as a memorial and floating museum at the port of Gdynia in Poland. 'Whites' was a family shipbuilders originating their buisness at Broadstairs in Kent moving to Cowes in 1803. Various ships from small lifeboats for the RNLI up to frigates, destroyers and sloops (including those of the Bittern, Egret and Halcyon class) were constructed at the yard as well as numerous commercial contracts. Any visit to the Cowes Maritime Museum would be well worthwhile. Sorry to bore you all - makes a change from the 'judging' and paint schemes ?. Norman Sells -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Damian Pliszka Subject: ORP Mazur Hi, here's a brief history of ORP Mazur: Built in 1914 in "Vulcan" shipyard in Szczecin (in 1914 - Germany).After WWI ex. German V 105 torpedo boat was given Poland and renamed to ORP Mazur (ORP means that is Polish ship - like USS in US) She was one of the first warships in Polish navy after independence recovery in 1918. In service from 1922. Armament as built: 2 - 75 mm guns, 2 machine guns, 2 - 450 mm torpedo tubes. After refit in 1931: 4 - 75 mm guns, 2 machine guns. After second refit in 1935 there was remowed rear funnel and there were 3 - 75 mm guns, 1 - 40 mm AA gun amd 3 machine guns. ORP Mazur - now gunboat - was used as a artillery training ship. She was sunk 1.09.1939 by German bombers (hit by 2 bombs - one direct). Dimensions: 62.6 m x 6.2 m x 2.5 m. Propulsion: turbine 5670 hp, 29 knots (from 1931 - 20 knots). Crew: 80. Hope this helps Damian Pliszka Poland -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Pletscher-Lenz-Schneider" Subject: Lutzow/Emden linoleum decks Hi Steve I was searching through my sources and refernces during the weekend and couldn't find a definitive answer. Peter Huff's book "SMS Emden" reports that on 30 July 1914 order was given to remove all items of "Sector A". This ment that all enflamable objects which were not necessarry for war service were given over board. Huff's book is based on the ship's log for a great part. He also notes that some of the boats belonged to "Sector A" and only one steam pinnace, one oared pinnace and two cutters remained on board. From 1. August 1914, EMDEN broke out from the German China station into the Pacific. Here, on 10. August, the last facilities for comfort were thrown over board or burned in the boilers. There is no mentioning the linoleum layer, which covered the fo'c'sel and the quarter deck as well as the bridge, being removed. Photos of the wreck show that the main deck was still planked with wood. I could also find one photo of the wreck which, in my interpretation, still shows a linoleum layer on the fo'c'sel. So I don't think that the linoleum covering the decks was removed, but I consider it possible that the linoleum inside the ship was. I also checked my photos of the Imperial German navy's battleships and battlecruisers. I have some nice aeral views. All those of them which allow for differentiation show different shades for decks which were usually not planked and topsides, for example of the armoured command stands. These decks are a little bit darker, which conformes with the reddish color of linoleum. Falk Pletscher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Colin Ritchie Subject: Plastic Sheet for Water >> PS: Anyone in the UK know of a good source for "rippled water" effect perspex/acrylic sheeting? ie major hardware chain...<< At last something I contribute to! I've looked at various methods of producing sea scapes without subjecting my ship models to the indignity of being embedded in my rather poor pollyfilla sea scapes. To this end I've looked at various alternatives. What I'm currently using is a sheet of textured plastic sheet available from the Uk chain's Focus/Do-It-all/B&Q. Its available in a cloud/swirl pattern , which when painted from below looks rather like active tidal/ harbour seas, but without any definitive wave pattern. I've also looked at a product sold by Faller, the German model railway people. It's really a textured polythene sheet , with a regular wave/ ripple pattern moulded in. Its pretty flimsy on its own. One modeller I know uses it as a basis, and casts a replica in resin. He uses this for his 300th scale scratchbuilt North Sea supply boats, and it does look pretty convincing. So there are products out there, but none as convincing as I like, perhaps someone out there in SMML land might like to look on this as a product worth pursuing. Colin Ritchie Aberdeen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Pletscher-Lenz-Schneider" Subject: Akitsushima camo paint About a year ago, there was a discussion on AKITSUSHIMA's experimental camouflage paint on SMML. Unfortunately, I joined this list not before this discussion ended, and I couldn't find the postings regarding this subject in the archives. So could any of the "old" fellow members tell me the results of this discussion? What were the colors used for that camouflage scheme? Were there really green shades? Thanks Falk Pletscher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Chris Law Subject: weathering Hi all, I am a newcomer to the hobby of ship modeling, and browsing the various ship modeling websites I have noticed that there are modelers who seem to prefer presenting their models in a "showroom" finish and others who prefer to weather them to give them a "used" look. As someone who prefers the latter, I would appreciate any tips on weathering ship models. Also, can anyone help with the camo scheme worn by Scharnhorst during the channel dash - paint mixes used (Humbrol or Floquil) would also be appreciated. Many thanks, Chris Law. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Dboykap@aol.com Subject: Matching Colors, Projects To answer Cataldo from a few days back regarding a FAQ matching naval colors to paint brands, I must confess that I certainly haven't started anything, despite Shane's challenge. Just too much going on right now. Kudos to you if you wish to give it a start. I'll contribute what I can. As a bonus start, here's a post I saved from SMML20/07/99 VOL612 from Dimi Apostolopoulos on Humbrol Matches to Royal Navy Paints. Posted in full below, let's see if this cut & paste works: >> Folks, Using John and Randy's Royal Navy WWII ship paint chips I have come up with the following matches for some of the colors using Humbrol enamels. I would invite others to evaluate these mixes and share their finds with the SMML group. 507A - H112 Tarmac (*) 507C - H147 Light Grey (*) 507B - H145 Matt Medium Grey (good) MS1 - 50% H67 + 50% H77 (*) MS2 - H106 Ocean Grey (*) MS3 - H175 Hellgrau + a touch of H34 (good, it seems that a mix of H115 Russian Blue and H34 could match it) MS4 - H162 Surface Grey (good) MS4A - not matched (a mix of H23 and a light grey may produce it) B5 - H144 + touch of H34 (*) B6 - Himmelblau (H34x67drops + H109x10drops + H94x4drops + H25x1drop - this is Humbrol's formula for Himmelblau, fair approximation) WAB - mix of H25 and H34 (pure blue, H122 fair approximation) WAG - 50% H65 + 37.5% H90 + 12.5% H23 (fair) Light Green - mix of H76 and H34 (H76 seems to have the best chroma from Humbrol's greens) Brown - H186 + a touch of H34 (*) (*) very good I hope this helps. Dimi << It worked! Ok, now to my current build project: a brace (4) of IJN Matsu class DE's from Tamiya. I'm experimenting with mass production. Guess it'll be IJN DesDiv 43, maybe 52. I'll let you all know. Dan Kaplan, NYC -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "Mike Taylor" Subject: Re: Current Projects Hi Shane, I'm from NY for the census and I have the following projects underway: just finished WEM HMS Chester Underway: WEM Askold 1/72 Amati U-boat 1/700 Skywaves D-Day set 1/350 Acurate Images PC with Torpedo models I-boat (anyone heard from Pac Front?) another 1/350 PC 1/350 torpedo models I-400 Aurora Q-Ship Loose cannon subtender and Skywave Gato WEM HMS Suffolk and K class.... and a few more plus some aircraft Mike taylor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: donald kolojek Subject: 1250 hints & tips wanted Hi all this is Don from the Cleveland Ohio area, I am new to model ship building and gamming. I am currently acquiring my fleet of 1/2400 scale IJN ships. I am looking for any one with hints and details on building and painting thses little wonders with lots of details for there size. As well, I am also looking for people to chat with just about naval stuff that are relativly local. You can email me direct at mailto:d.kolojek@popmail.csuohio.edu hope to hear from you soon. Don -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Fernando, Yohan" Subject: British LSTs at Normandy Hello everyone, I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on how British LSTs at Normandy were painted? Admiralty grey? Any interesting camo schemes? Info on pennant number placement would be helpful also. I just acquired the old Skywave LST 2-in-1 kit and wanted to do one as a US LST and the other as British. I'm hoping that the two countries painted their LSTs in a significantly different manner to make this little project more interesting! Thanks in advance, Yohan Fernando Hi Yohan, Try & find the following book: D-Day Ships - The Allied Invasion Fleet, June 1944 by Yves Buffetaut published by Conway Press. This is an excellant reference for all ships at Normandy. Also, the landing craft have some sort of camouflage, which look interesting. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume