Subject SMML11/09/99VOL665 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 00:25:17 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Resin Kit Questions 2: USS Cabot Status 3: Greenwich Thanks 4: Oklahoma City 5: HMS Bullen 6: H M S Cornwall 7: Re: NASHVILLE camo 8: Re: Oklahoma cruiser 9: Re: Bobtail Cruiser 10: Re: Super gluing rails 11: Re: CLEVELAND class cruisers 12: Re: Ugly Ships and Bobtail Cruisers. 13: HMS Bullen 14: Model shop in Greenwich 15: Re: Current Projects and Good, Bad and Ugly 16: Re: Glencoe S.S. United States et al 17: More Good, Bad and Ugly - a personal view 18: USS Oklahoma/USS Oklahoma City/Surigao Straight 19: USS Oklahoma/Oklahoma City 20: Re: Giuseppe Garibaldi in the '60's 21: Re: Greenwich Nautical Book Store & Ark Royal Model 22: Re: SHIP MODELLING 23: Re: Ugliest ship etc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Naval trivia Competition 2: Neptun 1/1250 Ships in stock at East Coast Miniatures -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Danjessar@aol.com Subject: Resin Kit Questions I'm about to start on my first resin kit and have a couple of questions. 1. Can anyone provide me with any basic hints and tips about resin modelling and how its construction may differ from plastic? I'm concerned about the type of glue to use and any techniques that will make it easier to build the model. 2. I'm going to build Classic Warships' 1/700 USS DETROIT (CL-8). The instructions say that the weapons and fittings can be found in Skywave set E-6, but it appears to me that this set is out of production. Can anyone tell me where I can either find this set, or does anyone know of another manufacturer of this equipment? Thanks, Dan Schweikert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Mike_T_Quan@notes05.gvl.esys.com Subject: USS Cabot Status Reported in the September 10th Dallas Morning News was something of interest as a follow-up to a previous SMML posting. At the auction held yesterday by US Marshals in the Port of Brownsville Texas, the USS Cabot/SNS Dedalo was auctioned to the Sabe Marine Salvage Company for scrapping. The coalition of the Miami-based Education Council for Space Age Technology & the USS Cabot Veteran's Association bid of $180,000 was outbid by $5,000 by the India-based shipbreakers. It is their intent to sail/tow the vessel to Asia for breakup, but as yet have not obtained EPA approval to export the Escort Carrier (because of her toxic substances onboard). It now appears that the ship (already designated as a National historic Landmark), will not become a museum, despite only last week being declared an American Treasure by the White House Millenium Council. This is a sad end to a vessel with a rich history, and represents the loss of a potential future SMMLie-Con site. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Colin Ritchie Subject: Greenwich Thanks Thanks for those who sent me details of the Model shop and environs of Greenwich, much appreciated , now lets just hope the weather stays decent for our trip down river! Oh Worst Birthday ,- I claim the record Bouncing across the Sahara, hung over, with a stomach on the verge of exploding after spending the night before toasting my 25th with the Tunisian Beverage Bouka, (made from Figs, and yes it has just the effect you might imagine), did I mention the bus was full of giggling Germans, Beat that, (sorry Germany !) Colin Ritchie PS: Great news about Dave Carter's recovery , keep an eye on that man Caroline..... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Oklahoma City Hi Josh The cruiser you're most likely thinking of is CL.91 Oklahoma City not Oklahoma which as you say was a battleship. There's a nice history of her in Steve Ewing's American Cruisers of World War II. The action at Leyte would be the battle of Surigao Strait and there's a good account in Thomas Cutler's The Battle of Leyte Gulf or any other detailed account of the battle which lists all the ships involved. Two Japanese battleships were sunk but there is some debate about which was sunk and where. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: HMS Bullen Hi Peter The only information (apart from Captain class specifications) I can find is details of her sinking. She was torpedoed 7 miles north-east of Cape Wrath by a homing torpedo fired by U.775. Hit amidships she broke in half, the stern portion sinking 2 hours after the stem. There were 97 survivors rescued by HMS Hesperus. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: H M S Cornwall Here we have to part company I'm afraid. The letter from De Vries is in no way dubious. It is clear, very detailed and clarified. Something like this has real meaning. There have been many instances when researching, that I have come across data in this form that has turned out to accurate. To say that the letter is dubious you would really need to see the letter complete. Without this letter I might have agreed with you, but with it, definately not. As for Captain Agar being mistaken, this may be correct-----MAY. Then there is the case of the officier who observed her at odd times from October 1941 through to December 1941. In December he actually went aboard her and made a special note as to how she was painted, and she was NOT in light grey. I am continually surprised by how more data comes to light that continually contradicts previous FACTS! History is full of this. R/N vessels sometimes changed camouflage rapidly. A very good example is that of the BERWICK which from MAY 1941 went from overall light Mountbatten Pink, then to Dark Grey and Mountbatten Pink, and then by the end of that year to Dark Grey, Light Grey and Mountbatten Pink, and finally by early 1942 to Dark Grey and Light Grey.Be very careful about any ships camouflage on distant station over a long time span, there are always surprises believe me. You mention that the most important information is photographic, the answer is ---sometimes but not always. and research can often be incomplete even WITH photos. Photos play an important part of research but they are not everything of course. The bottom line is that the artwork showing the Cornwall in camouflage will be in Vol one of Camouflage, it will have an explanatory caption OF COURSE, and this will enable people to make up their own minds. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: NASHVILLE camo Sorry folks, she wasn't in Ms.16 (Thayer Blue and White) in 1944. This is a case of mistaken photo interpretation on the part of Terzibaschitsch, who also mistakenly says that the camo pattern was the same on both sides. Ms.16 was designed for use in Northern waters (i.e., the North Atlantic or the Aleutians). One of its major weaknesses was that it was extremely visible from the air. Can you picture using that in the kamikaze-rich environment of SOUWESTPAC in 1944? Not! Exactly what Measure she is in remains a bit unclear. From the photo in Terzibaschitsch it appears that she's in Ms.33, using Ocean Gray (5-O) and Pale Gray (5-P). That said, however, Floating Drydock has a photo available of NASHVILLE from the starboard side that makes it appears as if she's in Ms.31, using Navy Blue (5-N) and Haze Gray (5-H) (the pattern is different from the port side pattern, so Terzibaschitsch is wrong about the pattern). So, it could be that she was in Ms.33 and the Floating Drydock photo is just printed a bit dark (I've only seen a xerox of the photo, not an original print), or that she was in Ms.31 and the photo in Terzibaschitsch's book is reproduced too light. One thing is clear: she was NOT in Ms.16. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Oklahoma cruiser Josh I am doing some preliminary research into the USS Oklahoma. Apparently, it is a modified Cleveland class cruiser. The Little Rock (virtually identical to the Okla.) is moored on display on the East coast. Also, does anyone have good detailed photos or drawings of the Talos missiles and launcher on the Okla.? I've done quite a bit of looking around with no luck so far. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Jeffry J. Fontaine" Subject: Re: Bobtail Cruiser Looks to me like I need to do some more research before I try to put my quarter's worth in print. But then again, that is what this list is for, to share information. Regards, Jeffry Fontaine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Super gluing rails >> Am now trying White Glue (Selley's Aquadhere) and I find it great for filling any gaps between the bottom of the rails and the deck of the model. Whereas the superglue would spill over and blotch the paintwork showing up glossy. << Simon, Try using a thinner super glue. I used to use strictly gap filling SG until they came out with the thinner stuff. The thinner type leaves almost no noticeable build up next to the railing and is excellent for applying 1/700 rails as well. I don't care about shiny SG on my models. The last thing I do after applying PE and rigging is to blast to whole model with a clear flat coat. This removes all shiny spots. For what it's worth. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: CLEVELAND class cruisers There was no cruiser named OKLAHOMA, but there was an OKLAHOMA CITY, so that's probably what you saw. Battleship OKLAHOMA was eventually rolled back over from her capsized position at Pearl Harbor (this was used through most of the war as a training exercise in ship salvage) and raised, but she was never refitted. After the war, she was stricken and sold for scrap, but sank during her tow from Hawaii to the mainland. As for the old battleships having their revenge, that occurred at the Battle of Surigao Strait, during the Battle of Leyte Gulf. Knowing that the Japanese were coming, Admiral Oldendorf positioned his old BBs (WEST VIRGINIA, MARYLAND, MISSISSIPPI, TENNESSEE, CALIFORNIA, and PENNSYLVANIA) across the top of Surigao Strait, capping the "T" of the oncoming Japanese, and virtually annihilating the IJN force. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Jeffry J. Fontaine" Subject: Re: Ugly Ships and Bobtail Cruisers. Hi All Again; 1.) Bobtail Cruisers: I was correct, some of the IFS ships were named after rivers, to see an image of four IFS ships cruising together go to the following URL for the USS Rainier AE-5, http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/3535 you can see the USS Carronade and her sister's are at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/3535/lsmrs.gif. 2.) Ugly Ships: For those of you that are making lists of UGLY Ships, please take heed of the following quotation which I also found on the USS Rainier web page and it seems to be quite appropriate: "We sailors are jealous for our vessels. Abuse us if you will, but have a care for what you say of our ships. We alone are entitled to call them bitches, wet brutes, stubborn craft- but we will stand for no such liberties from the beach." -Sir David William Bone I once again submit my quarters worth... Regards, Jeffry Fontaine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Leslie Brown" Subject: HMS Bullen The best source of information on the operational life of HMS Bullen (or any other Captain Class Frigate for that matter) is the book "The Captain Class Frigates in the Second World War" by Donald Collingwood, published by Leo Cooper. I only recently purchased this book (first published in the UK in 1998) and have not yet got to the chapter which includes Bullen (Chapter 12), but the parts of the book I have read so far have been very interesting. Regards Les Brown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: Model shop in Greenwich The shop concerned is Maritime Models in Nelson Road (come out of the museum and turn left - west - and walk for a few hundred yards). It is on the north side of the road. Don't forget to visit Anthony Simmonds' bookshop on the opposite side of Nelson Road, which has a decent stocks of new and second-hand naval books, including (last time I was there) a stack of Warship magazines. I see to recall that there is another bookshop in Nelson Road as well but I have usually run out of cash after visiting the other two locations.... I have not visited the NMM for some time so have no recent direct experience but I have heard that it has fallen victim to the trend towards making an 'experience' of the whole thing, which often translates to removing most of the factual stuff that the enthusiasts look for and replacing them with simulations and the like. I think there are some galleries that have escaped such treatment (so far) however. Robert Lockie Cambridge UK Hi gang, Damm, all this talk of Greenwich has influenced me badly. As a consequence, at today's APMA auction, I was forced to pay AUD$30.00 for the Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark. Now where the hell am I'm going to put it ;-)). Shane - who's now fondling a new set of tits. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Steven P. Allen" Subject: Re: Current Projects and Good, Bad and Ugly Ahoy! I'm glad to have finally found another ship model list (the last one I was on went dark a couple years ago). I've been building ship models for almost 30 years now--first one was an MPC 1/1200 Iowa (still have it, though many a subsequent task force has fallen prey to RIFs. Current projects: I'm almost finished building the superstructure for a 1/96 scale RC USS Wainwright CG-28 in her fit just prior to decommissioning in '93. I have yet to install the electronics and most of the drivetrain for want of the several hundred bucks all the transistor-gadgets cost. I have pics if anyone's interested. I'm just beginning a 1/250 APD--DE-transport conversion--based on the Revell reissue DE + Tom's Modelworks PE. I got the ship and PE direct from him -- he auctioned the pair off on eBay--and plans and H-R 1/256 guns, boats, and davits are on their way from the Floating Drydock. I'm still deciding between waterline (maybe even a diaroma) or full hull. I plan to use Micro-armor (1/285, nominally about 10% underisze but probably real close as the castings are oversize) jeeps and trucks for deck cargo. I'm trying to talk myself into using MS 32 camo pattern in greens, as most of my pics of wartime APDs depict. Does anyone know of a source for 1/250 (or thereabouts) sailors? I can find troops, but no sailors. My picks for Good, Bad, Ugly: Good: Iowas (except the Big J in '68: those ECM mounts are too much) Atlanta-class CLAAs Belknaps KGVs DDG-51s Forrestals Bad and Ugly: Yamatos (inc. Shinano) Nelsons CG-47s The Kriegsmarine IJN cruisers, any flavor German BCs I guess that's all for now; I'm looking forward to talking ships again! Steve Allen Rolla, MO, USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Les Case" Subject: Re: Glencoe S.S. United States et al >> Having mentioned it as one of my favorite-looking ships, I now wonder about kits. What is the Glencoe 1/400 kit like? Think there's also a Revell in a much smaller scale? I've never heard anything about either. Anybody care to opine? << I have both the Revell and the Glencoe. I am currently converting the Glencoe to radio control as a gift to someone who sailed on her. The Revell kit is a box scale (1/600ish) reissue from sometime in the fifties. It is a waterline kit and seems to be fairly accurate. Felix Bustelo has built it and has wonderful pictures and a review on his website: http://members.tripod.com/~Febus65/imm.htm. The Glencoe kit is also a re-issue of an old kit (Ideal Toy Company maybe?). It is 1/400 and full-hull. It is also a clunker-- more of a toy really (solid plastic bulwarks instead of railings, all of which are way too thick). It seems to be moderately accurate, but when I checked the beam to length ratio against a hull blueprint I got from the Smithsonian, I found the hull to be too short relative to its width. This ratio error makes for a rather stocky-looking boat. There are also a lot of dimples, and there were several badly malformed parts. The kit bosses and propellers are just flat inaccurate; scrap them and scratch-build replacements (which I had to do anyway to make them functional). I can't in good conscience recommend the Glencoe kit. Les Case -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Max Loosli Subject: More Good, Bad and Ugly - a personal view Good thread. My contribution (not limited to WWII !): Glorious: Trireme (based on how Olympias looks) Good: HMS Tiger HMS Lion HMS Queen Mary HMS Princess Royal HMS Repulse HMS Renown (... some sort of connection here surely .... ?) Bad: K class submarines (and not for using steam in subs, but for the funnels) Ferries (unless they are REALLY fast) Ugly: Pre-dreadnought French Battleships Russian versions of the above Favourite ship type of all time (new category) - TRIREMES ! ! ! ! No I'm not fixated ...... Regards, Max "You shouldn't have joined if you can't take a joke !" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Malcolm Batchelor" Subject: USS Oklahoma/USS Oklahoma City/Surigao Straight Josh, I'm sure others will chime in on this one, but here is my two cents worth. Question #1 The battleship USS Oklahoma (Nevada class BB) was sunk during the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour. It was later raised (the last ship raised IIRC), deemed not worth the effert to salvage due to its outdated powerplant and battle damage, and sold for scrap. During the tow back to the mainland she foundered. The light cruiser USS Oklahoma City (Cleveland class CL) was commisioned very late in the war (didn't see combat IIRC), and was shortly therafter mothballed. She was later converted to a Galveston class guided missle cruiser and fleet flagship, served for many years, and was recently sunk in the Pacific by a Korean submarine as a target during a multinational excercise. Question #2 It was a part of the battle of Leyte Gulf called Surigao (sp?) Straight where the "Battle Line" was formed by the bombardment unit (slow battleships), which was in the right place at the right time and caught one part of the Japanese fleet and did a fairly decent job of shooting them up (radar vs. searchlights - no contest). Stuart Batchelor Norman, Oklahoma Where it's finaly going to rain? Maybe? Hopefully? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Neklason" Subject: USS Oklahoma/Oklahoma City Josh The Cleveland class ship was the Oklahoma City, (CL-91), not the Oklahoma of Pearl Harbor fame. The Oklahoma was raised, but later sank under tow, while coming to the west coast, I believe. As for the Oklahoma City, she was built as a result of the citizens of that city conducting a war bond drive to the tune of $45 million, $5 million more than they needed. She was built at Cramp S/B in Philadelphia, and commissioned on 22 Dec. '44. She saw action off Okinawa and bombarded the outer and home islands of Japan. After the war, she was mothballed at Hunter's Point NSY, San Francisco. In the spring of '57, she and 5 of her sisters (Galveston, Providence, Little Rock, Topeka & Springfield) were converted to either Talos or Terrier guided missile cruisers. She was extensively rebuilt and recommissioned on 7 Sept. '60 as CLG-5, carrying the Talos missiles on her aft deck, a triple 6" turret on her foredeck and a twin 5" mount above that. She served off Vietnam (even making the cover of LIFE magazine in 1965 bombarding the NVA) as the flagship of the Seventh Fleet, and on and off as the flagship for many years afterward. She was mothballed on 15 December 1979. Late this last year, she was towed from the mothball fleet at Suisun Bay, CA to the former naval station at Mare Island. She was cleaned up for SINKEX '99, and towed out for Guam on 06 Jan. '99. In late March (or was it April?) she was the target ship for SINKEX '99, a multinational wargames exercise. She was bombarded, but the old girl held her ground. She was finally sunk by a South Korean submarine firing a single torpedo, which broke her back. I had the opportunity to see the OKC at Mare Island several times, and was there on the day she was towed out. I was even allowed to board her for a tour. My interest in this ship stems from a friend on the east coast (that, and I'm a Navy nut). Her father served on the ship in '63 and was killed in an accident 3 months before she was born. She'd been searching for the ship for over 25 years, never having seen it until I sent her the photos I took at Mare Island. For more info, you can go to an excellent site at: Http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/4648 . Incidentally, the Cleveland class cruisers are no more, except for one survivor, and the OKC was the last to go. The lone surviving Cleveland class cruiser is the USS Little Rock (CLG-4). She is on permanent display as a museum ship in Buffalo, NY. There you have it, I'll bet it's more than you wanted to know. Sincerely, Glenn E. Neklason -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: Giuseppe Garibaldi in the '60's Good day SMML, A few days ago there was a request for information about the Italian cruiser Giuseppe Garibaldi as outfitted as a missile cruiser in the 1960's. This is not something I know anything about, but, since no one else has answered (at least on-list), I would mention that a book by Franco Gay called "Incrociatori leggeri classe 'Luigi di Savoia duca degli Abruzzi: Parti prima e seconda" (volume 8/1 of the series that postdated the Orizzonte Mare books) has plans for the Giuseppe Garibaldi as rebuilt with missile launchers aft. I'm not at all sure the book is still around, but you could check with the "usual suspects" for this sort of book, namely Christian Schmidt, Pacific Front Hobbies, Articles of War, and the INRO book service. Good luck! Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: Greenwich Nautical Book Store & Ark Royal Model Hi, When in Greenwich, any SMLLie should drop in on a nautical bookshop on Nelson Road (just cattycorner from Maritime Models) called Anthony Simmonds. It's one of the best around, and it's worthwhile getting on their catalogue list Many years ago (1984?) the National Maritime Museum had a huge, beautiful model of the 1938-41 HMS Ark Royal, but it was not on display the last few times I've been there. Does anyone know if it is back on display now that the museum has reopened? Have a good visit to Greenwich! Cheers, Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: HGYL@aol.com Subject: Re: SHIP MODELLING Is it just me, or is this list getting way off the point with endless messages about ugliest ships and current projects (both of which are very subjective) ? This used to be a forum for exchanging ideas and hints on building ship models and ship research. Does anyone else find that it is becoming just a bit tedious ? Regards to all Harold Lincoln Massachusetts -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "J. London" Subject: Re: Ugliest ship etc. It would be hard to find anything uglier than the Italian mobile battery Faa' Di Bruno from WW 1. Almost as bad were the French armoured cruisers at the turn of the century with their curious hulls and multiple stacks, the US cruisers Brooklyn and Chester Class in WW 1. On the good-looking list I would include Italian Vittorio Veneto, British Vanguard (1946), British Southampton (or Town) Class cruisers (but excluding Belfast ans Edinburgh) and the Italian torpedo boats of the Spica Class. Mike London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Jeff Herne" Subject: Naval trivia Competition Guys, We could go on about pretty ships (Alaskas) or ugly ships (Furieux, 1883 French 2nd Class BB - YUCK) for eons, so I propose naval trivia contest...reaching back into the gray matter, I'll launch the first salvo... QUESTION: Who sank the first Japanese surface vessel after the Pearl Harbor attack, what was the name of the Japanese vessel, and on what date? There's no partial credits, this is a 3 parter... hmm...now here's a thought...email me your answers off list, at mailto:jherne@hotmail.com, I'll skip one SMML posting then post up the answer. I'll keep track of who gets the most answers right over the course of the next few months, and I'll give the winner an Iron Shipwright 1/350 PC-461 resin kit...that should make it interesting... Jeff Hi guys, Seeing as I have an unfair time advantage here. I'll bow out of the competition. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Michael Morse Subject: Neptun 1/1250 Ships in stock at East Coast Miniatures I have the following new Neptun 1/1250 warships in stock: 1004a Gneisenau-$79, 1031 Blucher-$60, 1126 Empire Macrae-$40, 1134b Berwick-$48, 1144 Penelope-$40, 1212 Taiho-$99, 1214 Hiryu-$75, 1235 Furutaka-$45, 1243 Yubari-$29, 1281 Chidori-$14, 1430 Algerie-$50, 1441a Gloire-$46, 1510 Aquila-$80, 1211 Unryu-$92, 1002 Bismarck-$85, 1004b Gneisenau w/15' guns-$85, 1282 Shimushu-$14, 1145 Perth-$42, 1292 Tsugaru-$26, 1000 H-Klasse-$99, 1102 Rodney-$69, 1147 Emerald-$48, 1240 Oyodo-$40, 1272a I-16 sub-$19, 1331a St. Paul-$62, 1393 Pecos-$42, 1133 Sussex-$48, 1146a Achilles-$42, 1160 L/M DD-$21, 1161a Tribal II DD-$21, 1163a J/K/N DD-$21, 1201 Yamato-$95, 1231a Suzuya-$59, 1233 Nachi-$59, 1300a Missouri-$89, 1301b Indiana-$68, 1301c Mass.-$68, 1302a Washington-$68, 1316 Lexington-$105, 1317 Saratoga-$105, 1333c San Francisco-$48, 1335a Northampton-$48, 1532 Zara-$50, 1530 Pola-$50 Planes: 3 per pack at $5 ea. pack: Zekes, Jills, Vals, Judys, Jakes, Hellcats, Wildcats, Devastators, Avengers, Walrus I, Arados, Loire 130. Mastercard/Visa and Discover accepted. Orders may be emailed or you can call 561-642-0026 'til 9pm EST weekdays and Sat. 9-12. The current full catalogue listing all of our naval miniatures and plastic models is free for the asking. Many thanks, Mike Morse East Coast Miniatures -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume