Subject: SMML16/09/99VOL670 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 00:19:04 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Ships of the 18th CS in spring and summer of 1940 and H M S Penelope 2: Naval video info 3: Re: Zara 4: Ramps on the side of WWII CV's 5: Fletcher Questions 6: Re: Nimitz class bow 7: Szent Istvan/Viribus Unitis 8: 1/400 Zara Kit 9: IJN Nagato & Aoshima 10: 1/400 Bofors 40mm 11: WWII paint colours - an observation 12: Re: Carrier "Horns" 13: HMS Kellington M1154 14: Question regarding OH Perry FFG's 15: Sticky out bits on WWII carriers 16: NAVAJO KIT 17: Thanks 18: Re: Iron Shipwrights kits 19: Carrier side projections 20: USN measure numbers 21: Re: Carrier horns 22: ZARA 23: Current Projects. 24: Polish Destroyers & correspondent 25: Sideway pointing fingers on carriers 26: Measure 16 27: SUPER GLUING SHIP RAILS 28: New Yamato books from Japan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: International Maritime Modeling Sept. 1999 Update 2: Trivia #3 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Ships of the 18th CS in spring and summer of 1940 and H M S Penelope Ships of the 18th CS were Newcastle , Southampton, Manchester,Sheffield, Glasgow and Birmingham. I have full details of Southampton, partial information on Newcastle and Manchester and nothing for the remainder. Camouflage applied at some point in April 1940 to all of the above. Dispensed with by August 1940. All were camouflaged throughout May 1940. Birmingham known to have changed to a later and simple scheme by the end of summer 1940. Any photos that come to light need to have precise dates, especially if they DO NOT show camouflage. 1940 is an interesting period for camouflage as applied to the Home Fleet, for example it is known that the Cruiser Penelope wore a multi coloured scheme BEFORE she grounded in April, at which time she had a complete change of patterns and colours. Therefore TWO different types of camouflage within two months. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Suzanne Bolton" Subject: Naval video info Dear Shane, Also just to let you all know the latest Naval Video Time Capsule 11 is not the last in the series. Mr. Smith told me the other day he has enough material for another 4 videos. Cheers, Steve -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: LBart73@aol.com Subject: Re: Zara This is, I presume the Tauro kit. I have the Fiume version. I haven't built mine yet. Looking at the pieces and dry fitting, it appears to be about on a par with Heller kits. I have seen a couple of very nice built up examples Larry B -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Doremus, Mark" Subject: Ramps on the side of WWII CV's Bradford, I'd guess that the ramps were for storing aircraft. I've seen a photo in FSM (Jan 92, p 31) where the tail wheel of an F4U-2 was placed on the ramp and the plane was parked with the main gear just barley on the deck. Mark -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Doremus, Mark" Subject: Fletcher Questions I'm trying to build the Skywave Fletcher ("square" bridge) as the USS Johnston. Comparing Skywave's bridge to Floating Drydock's USS Kidd plans shows a number of differences. Skywave has a 6 sided bridge, square back, with the front two corners angled back about 45 degrees. Kidd has an 8 sided bridge, with the front corners angled back around 20 deg and the back corners angled about 40 degrees fwd. Kidd's bridge is also wider and longer than Skywave's. Are these yard to yard differences, or did Skywave miss? A photo of Johnston shows more port holes on the forward angled section than Skywave seems to leave room for. For you master 1/700 builders; how do you represent the portholes? Do you drill them out, use decals or paint to make a black spot? Or is there a real trick I've missed? Mark Doremus Chilly Eden Prairie, MN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Bob LaBouy Subject: Re: Nimitz class bow In response to Shaya's question about the flight deck bow protrusions. These were originally designed to carry the bow nets and recovery piece to catch the bridle wires as the ship catapulted or launched the aircraft into the air. For those of you who haven't been watching this transition. For many years (since WW II times), the Naval aircraft usually has had at least two hooks located beneath the leading wing edge (or sometimes more toward the fuselage itself). These hooks connected to a cable (about 10-16 feet in length) which ran from the two hooks on the aircraft down toward the actual catapult "shuttle" itself. When the aircraft was catapulted down the deck and launched, this cable came off the catapult hooks on the aircraft and the shuttle, often thrown into the sea. These bow protrusions or stanchions were designed to catch these launching cables so they could be used over. Since the 70's (at least) most modern Naval aircraft have had the actual launch bar and connected pieces designed into the nose gear of the aircraft. It stays with the aircraft and there has been little need for the recovery net and area for the launch cable. One of the few aircraft left (until a few years ago which still needed such a cable for its catapult hooks) was the "STUF" and many of the older propeller driven COD aircraft which routinely serviced the fleet's carriers. As this gear was eliminated, you'll notice many shots show only one such bow protrusion. With the final retirement of all the older aircraft and with all carrier born aircraft now using the "nose tow" type of launching connection, these bow protrusions have been dropped off altogether. While it appears to be overlooked by many/most modelers, from modern carrier models I have seen exhibited, another passing feature of the deck area is that the "free shot" line and markings have also now been removed from the carrier deck markings. But I'm sure you saw that as well in you review of Nimitz class carrier shots, right? Hope this helps answer your question. Bob LaBouy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: HST Subject: Szent Istvan/Viribus Unitis Gentlemen, May I disturb you with one question: I am looking for a model kit of the Austro-Hungarian "Tegetthoff"-class of battleships, preferably the "Viribus Unitis" or the "Szent Istvan", but I'd prefer a complete kit, not the waterline-types manufactured by ther German company of DEC or the Polish cardboard model in 1/250th scale but also waterline only. Many thanks for any information Herwig Strauss -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: John Clements Subject: 1/400 Zara Kit I am aware of two 1/700 ranges in resin but I have not bought any so will leave others to comment on them. I have however made the Zara's sistership Fiume in 1/400 as this predated my awareness of the resin kits, and the opportunity to acquire an Italian ship even though not in my usual 1/700 seemed unmissable. I thought it was a pretty good basic plastic kit, comparable to the Heller kits in its lack of intricate detail, but finer than them as regards gun barrels and some other small pieces. I used the Profile drawing as reference, added photo-etch and replaced some of the spars with thinner rod. The only area which I found problematic was the bridge supports of which there are quite a lot, vertical ones supporting the main structure and sloping ones supporting the director tower above the bridge. These are provided in plastic and run through several levels of deck but the clearances are so tight that I replaced them with slightly slimmer brass rod. Rigging is much easier on a larger model of course. Painting the red and white stripes on the foredeck was painful, and I replaced the decal flags with hand-painted ones. Bearing in mind that it was, for me, pre-resin and pre-SMML, I think it looks quite presentable, but if I were starting now I would add more detail. They were very handsome looking ships and worth having in your collection. I have just knocked off a small piece of railing and it has fallen inside the keyboard; ouch. Hope the above is helpful. John Clements -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: IJN Nagato & Aoshima Hi Bill I posted a similar query about 2 weeks ago and received a nice detailed review (SMML 2.9.99 vol no 656). Are you still awake down there Shane? Chris Langtree Hi Chris, Yawnnnnnnnn, uh, sorry, did I miss something ;-). Shane - who back modelling at long last & just about to handpaint some WEM O class Brass ;-) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Luis Verissimo" Subject: 1/400 Bofors 40mm Hi all, I'm doing an aviso/escorteur from an Heller 1/400 kit Does anyone knows a 1/400 Bofors 40mm gun? Even a 1/350 could work. There's one? Txs Luis Verissimo -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Dave Swindell Subject: WWII paint colours - an observation After reading serious lengthy debates here and elsewere on the precise nature of the colours used on ships during WII, I came across a photo that gave me a bit of a laugh. Its on page 184 of the book Convoy and shows a couple of Matelots painting a British Warship. Clearly visible in the foreground is a stack of paint tins, some of which are labelled "Sherwin-Williams Marine Paints New Destroyer Paint" The Colour? "Gray!" One of the other tins is labelled "Household Premium Paint" the colour unfortunately is undiscernable. Dave Swindell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Dave Swindell Subject: Re: Carrier "Horns" >> OK, we've pinned down that one, now, what were the purpose of somewhat similar looking structures on the side edges of the decks of WWII US Carriers?? << These were used to increase deck space when ranging aircraft. The finger had guide rails on its sides, and an aircraft's tail wheel could be located on the finger and pushed outboard (carefully!) until its mainwheels were at the deck edge, leaving only the nose actually over the flight deck. Dave Swindell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Dave Swindell Subject: HMS Kellington M1154 The village of Kellington which this ship was named after has family connections, and I've being toying with the idea of modelling her. Checking in my Conway Bible she's listed as TS 1993, the same as her sister ship HMS Iveston. Since I know the Iveston is in use as a Sea Cadet Training Ship in Tilbury Docks, I assume from this that HMS Kellington has met a similar fate - does anyone on list know where? I know WEM have done HMS Nurton in 1:350 which could probably be built to represent HMS Kellington in later life without too much trouble, but I would prefer to model in 1:700, which looks like a scratchbuild - anyone know of published plans? Dave Swindell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Christopher Crofoot Subject: Question regarding OH Perry FFG's I know that the early FFG's had a short hull and carried SeaKing Lamps I. My question is since only one bird was carried did the hangar have dual doors or were they modified into duals with the advent of the LAMPS III? Thanks... Chris Crofoot -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Max Loosli Subject: Sticky out bits on WWII carriers Hello again, I think the bits we're now talking about (if they are at flight deck level) were for running the tail wheels out on, so that most of the tail of the 'plane would be stuck out over the wet stuff. This I believe was to free more space on the flight deck for falling over, crashing and dropping things ...... and incidentally to stuff more birds on. Now if you guys who DO know what you're talking about would answer the question, I'll shuffle quietly away. Regards, Max -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Dave Baker Subject: NAVAJO KIT For lamar Jones and others interested in USN ATFs: The Commander kit will do for an APACHE-class tug, but not for the earlier NAVAJO-class, which had a very different hull form, with a lower counter stern. I did a column on the NAVAJOs in an issue of NAVAL HISTORY several years ago and pointed out all of the differences between the two classes. The Commander kit can also be adapted to build a model of the later ABNAKI class, which had a thin cylindrical exhaust pipe rather than the large funnel; the final version on the basic hull design, the ACHOMAWI class went back to having a large (mostly dummy) funnel, but it had a different top to the funnel than did the APACHEs. But a NAVAJO just can't be built from the kit (unless you whittle your own hull). A.D. Baker, III -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Jeffrey Roberts" Subject: Thanks I just wanted to take a moment to say thank you to all those listmembers who responded to my enquiry last week regarding an outlet for HP Modell kits. It's only five days after my request in SMML and I now have the two kits I want en route to me from Germany. Best wishes, Jeffrey Roberts North Hollywood, California -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: Re: Iron Shipwrights kits I did the Iron Shipwrights USS BROOKLYN tug, added a few details, and painted her as she looked in civilian colors and it's a great little kit, will paint the other one USN. I'm about half way through building USS PANAY and I want to tell you this kit is a WINNER ! I'm making a few changes but the kit should build up just fine as is. Cheers, Bob Santos -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "John Rule" Subject: Carrier side projections With reference to the posting by Brad Chaucer regarding projections similar to bridle horns on the sides of US carriers in WWII. Were these not used to reduce space needed for aircraft storage, by permitting planes to be parked with their rear fuselage andd tail wheel resting on the projection overhanging the side of the ship. Or maybe that was only pre-war. John Rule -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: USN measure numbers Hi Guys and Gals; I see all these measure numbers being mentioned. Is there ONE book that shows sketches / drawings / descriptions of them? I can`t get more than one book, I bought 3 volumes of Whitley, 3 of Dulin and Garzke, and the new Jackie Fisher book and the budget is shot!!! What do you all think of the old Almark books? I have the RN, German, and RN Coastal Forces books. I have painted quite a few 1:600 MGB / MTB from the coastal forces book. I wargame those. Chuck Duggie Wargamer, Modeller, and Warship Enthusiest Hi Chuck, While I can't recommend any one book at the moment. I can recommend the Alan Raven camouflage series in Plastic Ship Modeller(check out this month's Internet Modeller for a review & subscription details). This covers discriptions of the USN schemes, with some pictures & sketches. Also check out fellow SMMLie John Sheridan's site at: http://home.earthlink.net/~jrsheridan/ Regards, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Re: Carrier horns >> OK, we've pinned down that one, now, what were the purpose of somewhat similar looking structures on the side edges of the decks of WWII US Carriers?? << Hi; I have seen pictures, don`t recall where just now, of US WWII carriers with planes parked along the edge of the flight deck. Propeller inboard and tail hanging out in the breeze. I believe what you are referring to are supports for the tail end of the aircraft. Chuck Duggie Wargamer, Ship Modeller, and Warship Enthusiest -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Peter Mispelkamp" Subject: ZARA Hi Chuck: The ships of the Zara class have been released twice in 1/400 scale. The first time was by an Italian outfit called Modelcraft. A few years ago, another Italian firm Tauro, re-released the kit. I have all four members from the original manufacturer, and had the chance to compare the re-issues to the original and could not see any major difference except that Tauro also marketed another version of these ships with PE railings. If they had added a few more items, I might have been tempted to cash in on the value of my very rare kits! A few years ago, Fine Scale Modeler published an article by someone who built the Pola, a sistership of the Zara. It was rated as an excellent kit. Kits of these ships were also featured in a UK publication more recently - published by Conway ("Model Boats"?) - which was not very kind to them. Simply put, these kits are not up to today's standards. Overall, they are still good basic kits with some very fine (read thin!!!) pieces. My only major complaint is the light AAA is not accurate, as the kit only comes with 20mm singles, while I understand they were armed with the Italian twin, diagonally offset 20mm mounts. I haven't built them yet, but plan to in the near future. My advice, get the Tauro kits - collectors will charge you an arm and a leg for the originals. Besides, the instructions do seem to be better, and the PE railings are a nice touch. NB Squadron Shop often has both versions on scale. BTW - I heard a rumour that Modelcraft was on the verge of releasing a Victoria Veneto kit in 1/400 scale when it went under (no pun intended!!) but if that was the case Tauro would probably have found the molds and released them by now. Hope this helps. Peter K. H. Mispelkamp Hi Peter, et al, The Conway model magazine is Model Shipwright, if that's any help. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Douglas Martin" Subject: Current Projects. Folks: Absolutely none.....however, I'm just back from visiting HMS Belfast in London, studying those deck surfaces....... Also picked up the Indianapolis book to add to Louisville and Minneapolis from Foyles, so at least keeping in touch. more in writing than by building. Found some impressive model kits at Bletchley Park, Milton Keynes (code and cypher - 'Ultra' and 'Colossus'), of Scharnhorst, Belfast, Bismarck and a Flower, plus others - well worth a tour if anyone is visiting the area. Douglas (Scotland) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: BSteinIPMS@aol.com Subject: Polish Destroyers & correspondent I thought the members of this list might have some interest in the following letter published in the latest issue (Summer 1999) of KIDD'S COMPASS. This is the 12 page quarterly newsletter published by The Louisiana Naval War Memorial-USS KIDD DD-661 (http://www.premier.net/~uss_kidd/home.html): >> I received from my friend, a seaman from Gonzales, a nice postcard with your famous destroyer USS KIDD, docked in Baton Rouge on the Mississippi River. Please kindly send me some more details about this destroyer from the last war, and if possible, let me know the names and addresses of other U.S. vessels that are now museums afloat. I am a retired seaman of the Polish Navy who took part in the last war at sea on board three Polish destroyers, among them the O.R.P BLYSKAWICA. I am attaching for you my story about the Polish Navy, which you can find on my internet page at: http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/8522 Zbigniew Weglarz Krakow, Poland << This might be a fine research avenue for lesser known warships of lesser known navies. Bob Steinbrunn Minneapolis Nautical Research Guild Louisiana Naval War Memorial-U.S.S. KIDD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "Jens H. Brandal" Subject: Sideway pointing fingers on carriers >> OK, we've pinned down that one, now, what were the purpose of somewhat similar looking structures on the side edges of the decks of WWII US Carriers?? << In the "Spitfire/Seafire in action" book there's a photo of Seafire Ib's at the edge of the deck with their tailwheels wheeled out on these supports. Only the mainwheels are actually on the main deck itself, and this must have saved lots of precious space - especially for a non-wing-folding type like the early Seafires. Do I get the cookie? :) Jens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Measure 16 Hello, Most of the USCG cutters operation along the Greenland coast including the Wind class Icebreakers (with two twin 5"/38 mounts they could break a lot more than ice!), the Storis armed bouy tender, and the Northland, were painted in Ms.16. I have photos of the Southwind and the Eastwind that show that the horizontal surfaces including the wooden decks were painted in the same way as a continuation of the vertical surface pattern pattern. Best regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: "Simon Wolff" Subject: SUPER GLUING SHIP RAILS Hi you all.. >> Try using a thinner super glue. I used to use strictly gap filling SG until they came out with the thinner stuff. The thinner type leaves almost no noticeable build up next to the railing and is excellent for applying 1/700 rails as well. I don't care about shiny SG on my models. The last thing I do after applying PE and rigging is to blast to whole model with a clear flat coat. This removes all shiny spots. << Rusty, Cheers mate and thanks for the advice. Missed the blatantly obvious and had not thought of painting over the S/G gloss with varnish.. was going to fiddle around with repainting the deck colour (gee lets make things difficult for ourselves . I don't have any of the SG thinner but will keep an eye out for it next time. BTW I have enjoyed putting rails on the model, makes my previous non-railed ship models look bland. The first sections of rails I did looked rough but have got to the stage where I can put it on and feel really pleased with the result. Now I am hooked. I have appreciated and enjoyed the assistance and advice from SMML subscribers! Simon Wolff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: Duane Fowler Subject: New Yamato books from Japan Greetings to all fellow Yamatoholics, I was in Tokyo this week on business (I'm in Taipei at this time). While browsing through a bookstore I found a few very interesting books. The first is titled "All about super-battleship YAMATO." At least that is the English portion that I can read. It is over 500 pages long, hard bound with a box cover and mostly filled with color photos of the original blueprints of the Yamato. Many of them have English translations in black ink from the Naval Technical Mission to Japan. The title on the blueprints is translated as "Record of the Building of Battleship Yamato, Armour, September 1941, Kure Navy Shipyard, Hull Department." Actually, before everyone gets too excited, that's exactly what it is - the hull plan. Most of the diagrams are of hull plating, joints, welds, armor plating, and the such. In one interesting section it shows the bearing loading and adjustment tolerances for the primary and secondary turret bearing rings. In an interesting section, it also shows the development of the bow shape and alternate lines. It also has copies of the original full set of hull plans that I believe all other publications have been based on. In the front it contains most of the photos that have already appeared in other books, although these seem particularly sharp. In the rear, are two US Navy reports. One is titled " Ordnance Targets, Japanese 18-Inch Guns And Mounts" and covers the US characterization of the large caliber guns and actual test firings at the Kamegakubi Proving Grounds 15 mile southwest of Kure. The other report is titled "The Loss of the Yamato" and is the official report by the Navy after the war on the subject with interviews of the survivors. All that for 6667 yen. The Second book I found was the Gakken oversized hardbound book "Yamato: The Battleship Yamato 1/100 Super Scale Model, WWII Series DX Volume 2." It is 143 pages long and full of photos of the Yamato and the same 1/100 model as in the Gakken soft cover book. There are over 60 full pages of color detail photos of the ship and to very large fold out pages that include a side and overhead view in true 1/350 scale. The rear section includes many photos, some never before published. It also has photos of a section of the face of the no. 1 turret face that was damaged at Leyete I believe (all the test is in Japanese, after all) and replaced. The damaged piece is apparently on display somewhere. This was 4700 yen. I also bought the Volume 3 hardbound "The Aircraft Carrier Zuikaku, 1/100 Super Scale Model" and the softbound Volume 19 "The Destroyer Shimakaze and Light Cruise Yahgi, 1/200 Super Scale." Interestingly, I also found the Nichimo 1/200 scale destroyer model that is the same one in the book! Then when you add the other 27 books of drawings and other things I picked up, I have over 20 kilos to lug home. Best regards, Duane Fowler (gotta find some clear plastic now to keep the drool out of the pages!) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Felix Bustelo Subject: International Maritime Modeling Sept. 1999 Update I am pleased to announce the September 1999 update to IMM. http://members.tripod.com/~Febus65/imm.htm This month's update is a merchant ship/ocean liner only update. In an attempt to even out the the military subjects with the non-military ones, I will from time to time post just such updates. The October update will return to a more general format. The September 1999 update to the site includes: Photos of Carl Erickson's 1/600 M.S. Alsterblick, Ted Roy's 1/300 scale Spanish style zebec and new and improved photos of Atle Ellefson's 1/600 scale models of the SS Norway and RMS Mauretania in the Photo Gallery. Reviews of Imex's 1/450 M.S. Cargoliner Trinidad and 1/400 M.S. Nedlloyd Bahrain, Gunze Sangyo's 1/450 Queen Elizabeth 2 and Iron Shipwright's 1/350 SS Brooklyn Harbor Tug and 1/350 US Navy Yard Oiler in Quick Kit Reviews. Reviews of Gold Medal Models 1/350 Titanic Lifeboat Davits and L'Arsenal 1/200 Superdetail sets in Photoetch Reviews. Update of the Kit List page to include merchant ship kits from Iron Shipwright and White Ensign Models. Review of the Liner Books volume on the SS Canberra in Book Reviews. Related updates to the Links page. My thanks to Jean-Paul Binot and Fred Wilkinson for contributing kit reviews this month. Please stop by for a look. Cheers, Felix Bustelo Webmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Jeff Herne" Subject: Trivia #3 Trivia answer and Question #3 The answer I was looking for was : The first exchange of fire between US and German vessels occurred on September 4th, 1941 between the USS Greer and the German U-652. Neither side scored hits. 'Close' responses were for the USS Niblack and U-52 encounter in April 1941, but the U-boat did not shoot at the Niblack, hence, no exchange of fire... The correct responses were from: THENRYS@aol.com YHSAIO@aol.com - 1pt. Christpher.Herron@PSS.Boeing.com -1pt. The standings through 2 rounds: THENRYS@aol.com - 2pts. YHSAIO@aol.com - 1pt. Christpher.Herron@PSS.Boeing.com -1pt. sanartjam@aol.com -1pt. Richa5011@aol.com -1pt. Next question: Fill in the blanks... The last Japanese HEAVY CRUISER to be sunk was the IJN ____________, sunk by the ___________ on ___________. Bonus point! Her recorded position at the time of her sinking was ______degrees, _________minutes South, _________degrees, _______minutes East. Good Luck! Jeff Remember, all replies to mailto:jherne@hotmail.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume