Subject: SMML19/09/99VOL673 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 01:12:53 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: IJN Nagato 2: Olympia 3: U47 2cm gun 4: Paint flaking from photoetched fittings 5: Re: Painting photo etch parts 6: Re: Grey or Gray? 7: Re: CAM ships 8: Re: Painting Photoetch 9: Re: PERRY HANGARS 10: Re: Deck Parks 11: Re: New French review 12: Re: IJN Nagato 13: Question for Mark Grossman 14: JMSDF Hatsuyuki Destroyer details 15: Yamato Books 16: Re: BWN USS Massachusetts 17: Re: HMS ONSLOW/PAKENHAM 18: Re: can you help: FF-1044 Brumby 19: Re: Painting photo etch parts 20: Unseen ship models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: IPMS(USA) USS Hornet chapter news 2: Naval Air POST 3: WEM COMPETITION -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Damian Pliszka Subject: IJN Nagato Hi, Nagato has two rudders (source: Nagato monograph from AJPress - Poland). Greetings Damian Pliszka Slupsk, Poland -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: KDur597268@aol.com Subject: Olympia Hi folks - Little while ago a I put out an informal request for opinions on the Revell USS Olympia. Either it got lost or I missed any responses, so I thought I'd try again. Ken Durling -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Christopher Crofoot Subject: U47 2cm gun Alan, The location for the 2cm. gun was on the main deck aft of the conning tower. The conning tower does not resemble the Revell kit in the least. The Revell kit represents a mid-late war VIIB. The U47, at the time of Scapa, had not been upgraded. Significant differences that I could determine were: There was a flare around the main gun that was welded to the main deck to prevent spray from interfering with the deck gun crew. The conning tower did not have the enlarged wintergarten. The aft end of the tower inclined forward not to the rear as the kit shows. The 2cm. gun was on the main deck. The rampant bull drawings were not painted until U47 returned from the mission and they were the same image on both sides (not mirror as the decals give you) (reverse one). I figured these differences from examining photos in Life and Time series books along with several others. There is one photo that purports to show U47 returning from Scapa with the crew mustered on deck. She is shown in profile passing in front of a cruiser. Examine the picture and you can see the pedestal for the 2cm gun along with the other items I mentioned. Hope it helps...you'll need it to redo that conning tower! Chris Crofoot -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Loren Perry Subject: Paint flaking from photoetched fittings To John Collins and anyone else experiencing this problem: Here are my suggestions for paintng stainless steel or brass photoetched ship model fittings. I've used these techniques with Gold Medal Models products and they will work with any other manufacturer's offerings. You didn't say what paints you use, but my methods have succeeded with Floquil paints, Testors enamels, and Tamiya acrylic paints. First, the metal must be very clean and free of fingerprints and grease. Submerge the metal in a pan of lacquer thinner or acetone (outdoors and with good ventilation) and agitate the solvent for a minute or so by gently swirling it around the parts. Then allow the parts to air dry for at least 30 minutes. Next, mix a batch of paint 50/50 with thinner for airbrushing (hand brushing isn't practical here, and the paint will not adhere to the metal as well.) The thinner itself is further broken down 50/50 with lacquer thinner. For example, with Floquil paints, I mix 50% paint, 25% Floquil thinner, and 25% ordinary lacquer thinner (purchased in gallon cans at a hardware store - my brand is "Sunnyside", but any will do.) The same formula works with Testors paints. Adding the lacquer thinner accelerates the drying process. For Tamiya or other acrylic paints, I've just used clean tap water for thinning. Now airbrush the entire sheet of photoetched parts the base color you've chosen, ie. Haze Gray, Navy Blue, or whatever you choose. Allow the paint to dry at least 24 hours. If you botch the paint job, submerge the PE parts in lacquer thinner and clean all the paint off the parts. Then you can start again fresh. HINT: Practice your techniques on some scrap photoetched material until you've mastered them. Then proceed to your main project. You can now cut the parts free from the metal "sprue" and glue them onto the model. Use a small paintbrush to touch up bare metal wherever you spot a bright reflection. This includes paint nicks caused during handling and bending, etc. If the etched fittings and the rest of the ship are essentially the same color, you can airbrush a final touch-up coat over the finished model. To hide the shiny reflection caused by the glue used to hold the PE fittings in place, airbrush a light coat of Testors Dullcote (or similar flat clear coat) over the entire model. This also hides decal shine. No primer is necessary when painting PE parts. I've never used any on my models, and some of them are about ten years old showing no signs of paint deterioration. Others travel across the country with me to shows and are exposed to varying temperatures, again with no paint failures of any kind. Loren Perry/Gold Medal Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Painting photo etch parts >> I am having a recuring problem with fotoetch parts. No matter how or with what I prime or paint them, when it comes time to use them, the paint flakes off. I assemble all parts requiring it before painting, but all I << Sorry, there's nothing you can do about it. Brass and stainless steel are extremely smooth with almost no "tooth" for the paint to adhere to. Moreover, it would be impossible to sand the detail for obvious reasons. I just touch the parts up as I apply them to the model. Sorry, it's the nature of the beast. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Grey or Gray? I was taught in college that the difference between GRAY and GREY was the color that is used to tint them. I can't remember which was which but GRAY was tinted using black and GREY was tinted using Navy Blue (by the Navy). Maybe John Snyder can clear this up. Is this true, or some bogus crap the professor was shoveling? I never called him on it (I didn't care at the time), but I never forgot that statement. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: CAM ships None of the CAM ships pictured in Kenneth Poolman's _The Catafighters and Merchant Aircraft Carriers_ appear to be in anything but a solid color. (Incidentally, we've been offered a sample of the grey used on British merchant ships. Should we accept and include it in RN Set 2?) As for names: DAGHESTAN; DALTON HALL; EASTERN CITY; EMPIRE DAY; EMPIRE DARWIN; EMPIRE DELL; EMPIRE EVE; EMPIRE FLAME; EMPIRE FOAM; EMPIRE FRANKLYN; EMPIRE GALE; EMPIRE HEATH; EMPIRE HUDSON; EMPIRE LAWRENCE; EMPIRE MOON; EMPIRE MORN; EMPIRE OCEAN; EMPIRE RAINBOW; EMPIRE ROWAN; EMPIRE SPRAY; EMPIRE SPRING; EMPIRE SUN; EMPIRE TIDE; EIMPRE WAVE; HELENCREST; S.S. MICHAEL E.; and, NOVELIST. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Painting Photoetch You might try what I used to do back when I was custom-painting brass locomotives for model railroaders: after washing the brass, soak it in vinegar for about 30 minutes, then rinse it and let it dry before painting. The acidic vinegar will slightly etch the brass and give it a bit of "tooth" which will hold paint better. Also, use a good primer; I like the various primers that are in the Floquil line (not the water-based paints). John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: CapnTroy@aol.com Subject: Re: PERRY HANGARS >> Both long and short-hull OLIVER HAZARD PERRY-class FFGs have two separate hangars, separated by various ventilation shafts, passageways, and other service spaces. On the long hulls, the RAST deck traversing gear serves both hangars. The ships were originally intended to be able to carry two helicopters each, but other than in some early trials, they never do, because the USN never bought enough either of the SH-2F LAMPS-I conversions used on the short hulls or the SH-60B LAMPS-III helos used on the long-hulls to be able to provide two per ship. More importantly, although in theory two could be carried, it would cause significant crowding to carry the extra personnel and would be rather difficult to sortie more than one at a time anyway. The few short hulls still in commission, all in the Naval Reserve Force, can carry the roughly one dozen SH-2Gs still in service with a Naval Reserve squadron on the West Coast, but the helos are to be retired shortly, even though the last of them was only completed (new) around 1996. Many of the PERRYs transferred abroad (and all have been of the short-hull variety and without towed linear hydrophone arrays) still do not have helicopters assigned; Taiwan, which builds its own version of the PERRY, has just ordered (2 Sept) another 11 S-70C(M)-1 versions of the SH-60 so that there will be enough helos for their PERRYs and their six LA FAYETTE-class frigates--a total of 20 S-70C(M)-1s should be available to the ROCN by mid-2000. << Dave, I was stationed on USS Curts FFG-38, a flight II Perry and we regularly deployed with two SH-60's onboard. The purpose of having two helo's was not to have both flying, but to enable us to have a helo aloft 24 hours a day for extended periods, which is difficult to do with just one helo. Troy Waters -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Ian Wood & Ellen Hume  Subject: Re: Deck Parks Dear all, I am sure you all know this, but the question on deck-edge extensions on aircraft carriers reminded me of a friend's recollections of his time in the Fleet Air Arm in the Pacific during WW2. He pointed out that the flight decks on British carriers were narrow as the gun turrets were on a lower deck (hanger??), rather than on the flight deck (as American carriers did). The top of the turrents were flush with the flight deck however, so one trick to get more aircraft on deck was to place the tail wheel onto the middle of the turret (which could track without moving the aircraft). He said that this was an interim measure until they used the extensions described by others on the list. Apparently the extensions worked so well that a British carrier could carry about 80 aircraft against its designed 50(?). He also said that such practices could not be done in the Atlantic, as there was too much salty spray about. I have no idea if he was telling the truth, or merely playing on my gullibility. :-)Perhaps some of you can advise me if the above is true. (off-list?) Regards, Ian Auckland, New Zealand Ps - Shane and Lorna, my thanks and congratulations for hosting this intersting, informative and sociable list (behind every successful woman is a cat) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Re: New French review Hi Jacques; You listed the magazine`s contents in English. Will the magazine be in French, English, or mixed? Thanks Chuck Duggie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: cwlam Subject: Re: IJN Nagato Peter K. H. Mispelkamp wrote: >> Hope this helps, according to my battleworn copy of S. Breyer's Battleships and Battlecruisers, the Nagato had 1 rudder, and four props. << To add to the confusion, Gakken Vol 15 shows a 1/200 scale model of the Mutsu. It had 4 props, and twin rudders. Of course, the Nagato could have had different configuration than her sister. Chung -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Question for Mark Grossman Hi; Regarding our earlier discussion of your _Regia Marina , Italian Battleships of WWII_. There is a refferance on the back cover to this book being "the first in a projected series". Were there more books in this series? If so- where might I find them? Thanks Chuck Duggie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Raynor Johnston" Subject: JMSDF Hatsuyuki Destroyer details Hi all. I wonder if anyone can help me with some colour and deck details for the helio deck for the above ships. I am building a 1:72 scale model and have a plan view of the said deck in front of me as I type this. I nned some help on various items displayed. (1) there is the ships number (last two digits) to the rear of the deck I am presuming that they would be white? (2) What colour is the deck itself? (3) To the forwatrd end of the deck there is a broad "A" shape (no crossbar) whose apex terminates pretty well dead centre of the decks length and width. What colout migt that be ? white again? (4) Near the rear of the deck there is what looks like 'planks' in a stub winglike pattern going athwartships either side of a 'y' shaped yoke/frame device which stretches aft and looks as if it is set into the deck itself. What is it? From the plan view it almost looks as if the deck is totally cut away under that plank grid. Looking closer they might be beams rather than planks. (5) The winch down trolley is clearly detailed in that data I have with its 3 rails so that is easily identified where the rails only come back from the hanger just past the decks mid point to coincide with the apex of the 'A' mentioned above. Any help greatly appreciated, Raynor Johnston (NZ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Yamato Books Hello All, I just dragged in this morning at 5:00. As to the info on the books, the BIG one "All about super-battleship YAMATO" is ISBN 4-584-17076-2. It cost ¥6667. Even though I have it right in front of me, I have absolutely no idea who the publisher is. If I go back to Japan, I will pick up every copy in the store but since I already had 20 kilos of books, it just wouldn't fit! The second book is a Gakken hardbound called "The Battleship Yamato, 1/100 Super Scale Model, WWII Series DX Volume 2" ISBN 4-05-401001-6. It cost ¥4700. This was the only copy I could find in two stores. The other book is the Gakken softbound "Yamato" ISBN 4-05-601261-X and is volume 11 of their modeling series. I am not sure which series since it is all in Japanese. Volume 9 in the same series is also on the Yamato but I didn't see it anywhere and I don't know what the ISBN is. Each are ¥1553. Interestingly, even though both of the Gakken books are based on 1/100 scale models of the Yamato which show the Yamato in her final configuration, they are definitely not the same model. There are some very interesting, though slight, differences. Regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Steve Singlar Subject: Re: BWN USS Massachusetts >> Yes folks, it is finished! (What ? Somone actually *finished* a kit ?!?!?) After many painstaking hours of assembly, two major accidents, my work getting in the way of my personal life(tm), my BWN 1/350th Scale model of the USS Massachusetts (BB59) is finally done! << I saw this beauty just after it was added to the 1/350 display aboard the Salem. It is excellent. Clearly shows the the effort that was put into it. Nice work John. Steve Singlar Pelham, NH -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Tim Stoneman Subject: Re: HMS ONSLOW/PAKENHAM A word of caution to anyone following Chris's advice that the Skywave/Tamiya O class will make PAKENHAM as well as ONSLOW. It will, but a little more work is needed. First, Nat Richard's article in 'Navis' last summer should be consulted, and then the armament requires attention. PAKENHAM was built with 5 4" guns (not 4.7" as found in the both kits), 'A', 'B' and 'Y' in shields (use the Tamiya ones until the White Ensign (WEM) ones are available (when will that be, Caroline?)) and unshielded ones in 'Q' and 'X' positions (use the poor representation in 'Q' position in the kit, the PE one from the WEM fret or (IMHO) the best one, the resin version from WEM). After PAKENHAM's Malta refit, after which the 'pretty' multicoloured camouflage had gone, (replaced by boring dark hull/light upperworks), 'Q' gun had been replaced by a quad torpedo-tube mounting - sadly I can't remember whether it had the blast shield as on the part in the kit. Additionally, the kit's radars are best replaced! Tim Stoneman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Steve Singlar Subject: Re: can you help: FF-1044 Brumby >> THIS SHIP WAS SOLD (Maritime Admin) 9-9-1994 and broken up. IS THERE ANY WAY I COULD GET SOME PLANS SO I COULD BUILD A MODEL OF HER(HULL,SUPER STRUCTOR,MAIN DECK UP). ANY THING WOULD HELP. FREDDIE D HEPTING mailto:fhepting@northland.lib.mi.us Hi all, Fred is not not a subscriber, so could you cc any answer to him as well. Shane << So building 1044 has been scrapped. In the three years I was in Newport (on the Hugh Purvis and the Garcia) the only time I saw the Brumby move was to shift berths. I have a set of Garcia class drawings form: Warship Drawings C/O Edward H. Wisnesser 407 North 25th St. Pennside Reading, PA. 19606 610-779-6301 They were reasonably priced and for my purposes, they were fine. You may also try the Floating Drydock (http://www.floatingdrydock.com/) Good luck, Steve Singlar Pelham, NH -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Painting photo etch parts >> I am having a recuring problem with fotoetch parts. No matter how or with what I prime or paint them, when it comes time to use them, the paint flakes off. I assemble all parts requiring it before painting, but all I have to do is touch them with tweezers and the paint jumps off. Any suggestions? << Hi John- One tip I can pass along is the following: paint adheres poorly due to a lack of "tooth" on the brass surface. Two solutions are as follows. One, soak the part overnight in acetic acid (white vinegar) and subsequently rinse several times with running water. Wipe dry with a cloth. This puts millions of microscopic pits in the brass, making the surface rough at a very small scale. A much quicker solution (figuratively and literally) is to buy PCB Etchant Solution (full strength ferric chloride) at Radio Shack. This is used by electronics hobbyists to make their own printed circuits. Dip the part in the solution for 20-30 seconds, then rinse with copious water, and blot dry. The brass will noticeably darken from the treatment. You can reuse the solution multiple times, and it's cheap at about $4.00 a bottle. CAUTION: This is relatively nasty stuff, wear rubber gloves and take necessary precautions as noted on the bottle. Do NOT dispose of down the sink. Obviously, in both cases, if you subsequently use sandpaper or files on the brass, you need to re-treat it. This has worked very well for me in the past with no paint problems with both PE, and brass rod stock (prop shafts), etc. Good luck! Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: JOHNEME@aol.com Subject: Unseen ship models What injection molded ship models have been announced, or at least seriously planned, by manufacturers, but never quite made it to market? Some to start the list are the Akagi announced and molded by Aurora, the 1/720 Charles DeGaulle by Italieri, the 1/350 Viribus Unitis whose molds supposedly belong to Revell-Germany and which I would give my eye-teeth to see come out, and a 1/400 Vittorio Veneto - the last three reported on this list, and the Akagi reported on in Fine Scale Modeler. It seems to me that the models that don't make it are the most interesting subjects. John Emery -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: KDur597268@aol.com Subject: IPMS(USA) USS Hornet chapter news Also, I want to take the opportunity to announce that the IPMS Chapter that I co-founded and am currently Pres of (now named IPMS/East Bay - Region IX, Chapter 21) has just been approved to move aboard the USS Hornet (CVS-12) Museum. We are a young chapter and this is a very exciting and challenging move for us. Many thanks to John Cobb of this list for perservering and arranging a meeting between myself and the Development Director, also to Bradley Chun and Bruce McBride for their groundwork over the last 2 years. We still have details to work out, but I am hoping that this move is going to prove a real boost for ship and aircraft modelers in this area, as it has been suggested that a fair number of models for ship associations might be commissioned down the road. A model display, including aircraft and ships is also in the early stages of discussion. And I don't need to tell you that being aboard her, with her history, is just intoxicating, tremendously exciting in its own right! We're also talking about hosting a Regional there, and if the SMML convention becomes a regular event, what better place for one?? Only problem is its distance from hotels. Anyway, it's easy to dream - I am committed to taking the steps to establish this association as a solid, mutually beneficial one. It's a new undertaking for me, and I need help. Local modelers interested in getting involved are ten times welcome, as is the feedback of all you folks on the list. While I am excited and optimistic, I also see that the waters ahead are not free of minefields. I am committed to the "tyranny of democracy." (i.e. no dominating personal agendas.) Thanks for listening Ken Durling -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Ian MacCorquodale" Subject: Naval Air POST Hi SMMLies, Just a note to let you all know, my new photo feature on Naval Air is now up and running. Please drop by for a visit! :-) http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/9089/ Ian In Hurricane Free Halifax -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: WEM COMPETITION Hi Guys I have just announced the results of the "End-of-August" competition and listed the winners and the answers on my webpages... congratulations to all the prize-winners! The only question that NO-ONE got concerned "HMS Spurious". To this end we have posted a photograph of this particularly uncommon "vessel" from the last war. Please check it out! http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/news.htm Caroline and Dave Carter White Ensign Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume