Subject: SMML22/09/99VOL676 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 00:31:20 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: SG Thinner 2: Passenger Lists 3: Illustrious class 4: Acetone 5: Re: Use no etchants! 6: Re: Dullcote haze 7: New Jersey in Long Beach under tow 8: Pearl Harbor movie and better stories 9: Solid Casting 10: Cam ships - Hurricanes 11: Re: Ideas 12: Swap site 13: Early WW2 Royal Navy Camouflage 14: Re: Ready made display cases 15: Re: Dull coat haze 16: Holiday Snaps (Digitizing Images) 17: Re: USS Clark & Floyd 18: Thinning Dullcote 19: Re: Dullcote Haze 20: Re: Dullcote haze 21: Re: Gray or Grey 22: Re: Dull coat haze 23: Re: Re-released Revell Olympia 24: Flat coat Blues 25: Semtex hints -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Trivia points update 2: FS: USS Clark photos 3: Books & Atlanta For Sale -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Norman Samish Subject: Re: SG Thinner >> The thinner for super glue is acetone. Acetone was, and still may be, sold as nail polish solvent. The open cup flash point is 15°F, but one only uses small amounts. << I'll suggest you use pure acetone, available at most hardware stores. Nail polish remover is a mixture of acetone, water and other compounds. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Passenger Lists Hi Jeff The White Star line became part of Cunard and all their archives and records went to that company. Currently the University of Liverpool holds the entire Cunard archive but was not taking queries a couple of weeks ago. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Illustrious class Hi Doug The 36 aircraft of the Illustrious class was actually a bit of a lie exactly like the Italian and Japanese adherence to the Washington and London treaty limits (It seems the USN were the only ones who actually adhered totally). They could carry about 50 to 60 aircraft but this would have pushed the all up weight over the limits. Like the Essex's they were top heavy but it was a better kind of top heaviness Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Acetone Hi Bill Yes Acetone is still sold as nail polish thinner (borrow your wife or girlfirends) and works on all sorts of paint as well. Don't try to drink it though as that is not a good idea. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Use no etchants! >> As I mentioned in my previous post last SMML issue, I have had good success with using Radio Shack PCB Etchant. The brass noticeably darkens with a 20-30 second soak. << Tom, I wouldn't do that. I know for a fact that all my 1/700 detail sets have parts thinner than human hair. These lines are the thinnest modern etch technology can produce. The tolerances for etching time is so fine that my etcher utilizes computers to time the dip in the etchant. One more second and those delicate lines are lost. That's why I wouldn't recommend putting any PE sets in etchant of any kind. If it doesn't etch some parts away completely, it will greatly reduce the finest parts strength. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Dave Judy Subject: Re: Dullcote haze Keith, I have used Testors Dullcote on just about all kinds of paint, with no problem, I thin it with Testors thinner. Pehaps the rubbing alcohol is the culprit!! some of these alcohols contain small amounts of oils....Such as wintergreen, camphor.. Dave Judy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Way, David L" Subject: New Jersey in Long Beach under tow We were thrilled to see the battleship New Jersey drop anchor in the Long Beach outer harbor this morning. She is under tow from Bremerton, Washington to her final home in her name state of New Jersey. She will become a warship memorial / tourist attraction. I was told the ocean going tugs need fueling and this was a planned stop. This will probably be the last time the beautiful lines of a battleship will grace the horizon of our coast line. With the closure of the LB Naval base, the closest naval ships are down in San Diego. That's real "carrier" country down there. Dave Way Long Beach, California -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Christopher Crofoot Subject: Pearl Harbor movie and better stories I agree with Marc...Hollywood will probably butcher this story... but then what don't they? As far as historical turning points... Midway would be far more appropriate. It was simply a "Miracle" that McCluskey found the Japanese at such a vulnerable moment (decks loaded w/munitions in mid re-fuel). The only other comparable moment I can even think of was the discovery of Confederate battle plans wrapped around a cigar...that helped the Union defeat the Rebs at Antietam and allowed Lincoln to issue the Emancipation Proclomation. Events like those make one think that indeed, Divine will does guide this nation. As a related thread...are there other naval incidents that have far reaching effects that I'm ignorant of....and I don't mean as far back as Salamis...lol. Chris -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Sami Subject: Solid Casting Hi everybody, While browsing on the internet, i checked one link from Pitroad's website. The Japanese company is called "Solid Casting" and they have some major IJN units kitted in resin. Although most of these vessels are already in injected kit form, some are very interesting. From the photos of the resin castings, the quality looks very good. Personally i am interested with the "Nachi" and the "Takao" class heavy cruisers. The site is in Japanese, but there is English captions as well. One note also says that there won't be any overseas shipment available. The kits are all in 1/700. Does anyone have any info and access to these kits? Their website adress is: http://www2.wbs.ne.jp/~s-c./ Pitroad's web adress is http://member.nifty.ne.jp/pitroad/pit1e.html Thanks Sami Arim Walnut Creek, CA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Dave Swindell Subject: Cam ships - Hurricanes >> Were any of these ships painted in camoflage? Or just grey like most mercantmen.? Did the Hurricane fighter have any special markings? << Hurricane Markings Standard RAF camouflage pattern, but upper surface colours extra dark sea grey and dark slate grey over medium sea grey undersides. Prop black with yellow blade tips and sky spinner. Up til early 42 they carried a sky fuselage band just forward of the tail and the roundels would be type B on the top of the wing, A under the wing and A1 on the fuselage with type A fin stripe. Early in 42 the sky band was deleted and the type A and A1 roundels and flash changed to C and C1 roundels and flash. Squadron codes caried on operations were LU forward of the roundel on both sides, and the individual aircraft code aft of the roundel. These would be either sky or medium sea grey. Empire Tide carried a Hurricane in the early scheme coded NJ*L at one time, possibly for trials, although the photo is apparently dated 1943. Interestingly, the ships name clearly visible just aft of the bridge is abbreviated to E TIDE. Another photo of this ship shows large irregular rectangles along the hull in a lighter shade of "grey" (B&W photo!) This is almost certainly fresh paint from a touch up job rather than any camouflage pattern, but it's an authentic way of breaking up an otherwise dull overall grey model. A photo of a Hurricane on a catapult in the later scheme shows it without squadron codes. The Hurricanes were mounted on the catapult ready to launch, wheels up and flaps drooped approx 30 degrees. Gun shell ejection ports were plugged, the plugs being attached to lines to the catapult handrails. Dave Swindell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Re: Ideas Michael D suggested: >> Also I think a lot of modelers that like to do a lot of weathering should consider doing a ship in "mothballs" - I think a perfect candidate would be the Escort BUCKLEY. << Or maybe one of the sad-looking FORREST SHERMANS that were a fixture of the Philadelphia Navy Yard for so many years (until finally scrapped to make room for all the post-Cold War decommissionings). I'd thought about doing one of the old Revell kits that way. Haven't had a chance to go see SALEM in Quincy yet, but for years she and her sister, DES MOINES, sat at Philly with grass growing out of their decks while birds built nests around the stacks. The KNOX class frigates that are now in storage there have generally been kept in immaculate shape for possible foreign sales/lease. Two of them are currently being towed to Taiwan. Mike L Alexandria, VA USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Bob Morley Subject: Swap site Someone suggested using Onelist's Figuremodel list for selling/swaping. There already is a swap/sale site devoted to shipmodeling. Listings are free. It has both plastic, and wood ships listed. Check it out at: http://www.pionet.net/~cody/shipmodelpage.html Best wishes. Bob Morley Cleburne, Texas USA *** Faith is not beliving that God can, It's KNOWING that He will. *** -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Clifford Franklin Subject: Early WW2 Royal Navy Camouflage Whilst browsing through a university library I was visiting the other day, I came across a weekly newspaper called "The War Illustrated", published during World War 2. Alan Raven and others have stated that the first RN ships thought to have worn camouflage during the war were destroyers of the G class, from Dec 39/Jan 40. However, this newspaper had a photo (only a little retouched) of an 'A-I' class destroyer "depth charging a sub in the English Channel" and wearing a very obvious two tone dazzle scheme. The issue it was printed in was dated 18 November, 1939. The photo was presumably taken late October/ early November. It is not a great photo, but does show the starboard side fairly well. The destroyer is not identified, no pennant number is visible, but it could be one of the G class. It is not the Grenville, as there is a fuzzy shot of that ships starboard side in the 2 February, 1940 issue, and the pattern is very different. In the 14 June, 1940, issue, there is a photo of a County class cruiser in Reykjavik Harbour, Iceland. The ship is overall dark or medium grey, but with the large box hanger and funnels having panels and stripes of light grey. With the hanger and unbroken upper deck, the ship must be Berwick, Cornwall or Kent, but can anyone more positively identify both this vessel and the destroyer. Regarding the Grey/Gray thread, a number of people have already stated that gray is merely the American spelling of the British/Commonwealth form grey. On a more technical level, though, Grey refers to a mixture of pure black and white only, ie. a 'neutral grey.' The term Gray is applied to a mixture of grey and any other colour (blue, green, whatever) such that the grey predominates, but there is still a definite colour or chroma to the mixture. In this way, the early war USN paints should be called gray because of the purple/blue pigments in their formula, but the late war/post war paints should technically be called grey, because they are made up of black and white pigments only. Hows that for confusing the works! cheers Cliff Franklin New Zealand -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Marc Flake Subject: Re: Ready made display cases SMMLers: Drat, double drat and triple drat -- I must begin thinking in three dimensions. The height of the display case is almost 4 inches--roomy enough. But measure twice and purchase once. Marc Flake -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Mike Settle Subject: Re: Dull coat haze >> I don't normally flat coat my models, but due to a rather glossy finish of one of the colours on the Belfasts hull, I am forced to. I use the Testors Dullcote from the bottle thinned with rubbing alcohol for use in my airbrush. The last time I used this stuff it left a white haze all over my Ark Royal, totally ruining it. Can somebody please tell me what might have went wrong. Did I not thin it enough or what? Is there another product that anyone can recommend that is better and less troublesome? << Hi, Keith, The Testors Dullcote and Glosscote in the bottles are lacquer based, and either Testor's dullcote/glosscote thinner or lacquer thinner must be used to thin the stuff. The alcohol is the culprit here, although I have had the dullcote fog also if applied too heavily. The best flat coat I have found is Polly Scale's Flat. It is acrylic and can be thinned with water or alcohol, although I have had good luck using Windex window cleaner as a thinner. The new Testors Acryl is a very close second to the Polly Scale in my experience. The Acryl has a flat, gloss, and a semi-gloss clear coating. Mike Settle I am not agent #1908 of the non-existent Lumber Cartel (tinlc)tm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "James Kloek" Subject: Holiday Snaps (Digitizing Images) This may be construed as a shameless plug for my employer, but......Kodak now has a number of ways on the market to digitize images which are captured on film. Some of these are now being generally rolled out in the U.S. But I am not sure when the product launches were(are) outside the U.S. Anyway, perhaps the easiest is a product called Picture CD. When you bring your film into the processor, you just check a box on the envelope asking for a Picture CD. When the prints come back, you also get a CD. The CD goes right on your PC, and starts itself. In addition to your pictures, now digitized, it also has software on it which will allow you to do some editing on the images. You can zoom and crop, you can change brightness and contrast, etc. You can then print them on your inkjet printer (use Kodak inkjet paper of course). Also there is software which lets you email them, or export them to common applications like Word and Power Point. You can even make "wall paper" for your computer screen. Mine at work now has a nifty picture of my completed WEM HMS Kelly. That draws some comments. Instead of a Picture CD, you can also have them sent to a common website where they are posted. You can then download them and work with them on your computer. If you give the website address to friends, family, and associates, they can also download them. You can also order prints, T-shirts, coffee mugs etc. Finally, there is also a deal in the works (currently being tested in Boston I think) with AOL called "You've got Pictures". Again, bring your film in, check the box, and the digitized images will be delivered to your AOL account. The point is, Kodak is trying to make it easy for you to have all the advantages of digital images without you're having to go buy and learn how to use a digital camera. Just use the same camera you've had all these years. If you already have the film processed, then you need to use a scanner. With the right equipment,you can scan either the prints or the negatives. Unless you spend a lot of money on a digital camera, film will still give you superior image quality, and the high resolution images you get back on Picture CDs are really very good, and much better than you will get from a garden variety digital camera. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: USS Clark & Floyd Dear Gents: I recently read that in SMML the USS CLARK FFG-11 was going to be sold to Poland and was returning from a Great Lakes cruise, well between Sept 9-13 1999 the Clark made a port of call in Phillie and I went to see her. It was interesting to see the difference between a reservist ship to a regular navy ship. The tour wasn't limited to the main deck the tours took you to the bridge. The ships hull numbers weren't covered by varnish to reduce visibility They were bright white with black shading and the stern had the ship name in 3 places: the stern and the two others below the hull numbers on each side of the ship. As far as Hurricane Floyd went while South Jersey wasn't in the direct path to it too took had highways flooded and closed, rivers and creeks backed up, electric power was lost to a quarter million people for 3 days and trees were knocked over by winds on houses and cars. Craig Bennett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "James Kloek" Subject: Thinning Dullcote I think the problem may be what you are using to thin the material. Dullcote is lacquer based, and I thin it with the lacquer thinner for Dullcote which Testors sell. I have had no problem with it. Rubbing alcohol is usually 70% isopropyl alcohol (here we go with a chemistry thread again) and 30% water. It works great for thinning some acrylic paints, but not for solvent based coatings like Dullcote. I am surprized the two mixed at all. There are acrylic based clear flats as well, the best I have found is Gunze Sanyo, although it does not age well. But fresh, I like their clear gloss/clear flat system. After I finish a model I will first spray it with clear gloss. This gives a uniform surface to everything, both the flat paints, and the shiny stuff, like CA glue. Then I spray the clear flat. It is one more step, but I find it does a much better job of making the CA glue disappear. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Alan Simon Subject: Re: Dullcote Haze Dullcote formulation I know appears to be conventional nitrocellulose lacquer. Thin with lacquer thinner. If Testors has introduced a water-thinned version, its news to me. Have developed cloudy white deposits when one or both of following occur: 1. Spray excessively heavy coat, too close to work 2. Ambient temp & humidity are high (try cool/dry day) Alan Simon Atlanta, Ga. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Dullcote haze The alcohol is likely the seat of your problem. Try cutting Dullcote with lacquer thinner and I think you'll be MUCH happier. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Gray or Grey Rusty: I'm not sure I've got an answer for you. The modern Haze Gray SHOULD be a neutral (i.e., a mix of black and white). Anyway, here's what Randy likes for modern USN colors: Haze Gray: FS 36270 (26270 for scale effect) Deck Gray: FS 36008 (26176 for scale effect) John Snyder (and Randy Short) Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Edward Malewitz Subject: Re: Dull coat haze I've done that, too. The usual cause is excesive moisture coupled with too fast drying. Floquil makes a retarder for lacquer based paints. I prefer an enamel (paint thinner) based dullcoat. Testors is OK. But thin with paint thinner, not alcohol. Alcohol drys too fast. (of course, use proper ventilation). The acrylic clear flats (Poly-S) work OK and don't have the fumes. But Tamiya's clear flat leaves a white film. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: RCClem@aol.com Subject: Re: Re-released Revell Olympia In response to the request for a review of the re-released Revell Olympia, I am an admitted Olympia-holic. I built the 1970s Revell kit (H-443) a few years ago, before there were any dedicated PE sets for the kit. I built it to about 1919 vintage. The kit is molded in white, but it is the same exact kit as the original late 1950s kit (H-367). That one was molded in 3 colors. I built it in the 1960s as a kid and bought it again at a swap show just recently. I'll keep it in my collection. The latest re-issue, which I purchased for about $12 (on sale from Model Expo), is kit #85-5026. It is also molded in only white at 1/232 scale. It is obviously the same kit. The feature that grabs one immediately is the handrail design. They are molded on stanchions of uneven height that they expect you make into railing by glueing on string across the tops. Also, the 12 boats and davits are a bit clunky. In fact, a modern kit would be of much finer detail in almost all of the parts. Design-wise, there are ventilation hatches and stairways that are missing underneath the bridge. Also, there are no stairs or ladders from the boat deck level to the port and starboard catwalks leading to the bridge level. And there is much detail missing from the boat deck, but that would be mostly unseen if the ships boats are mounted on the racks. I plan to build the new release in its 1898 form. I plan to use the PE kit from Tom's Modelworks. This set will replace almost all of the "clunky" stuff. I also like that set because Tom has included the Flying Bridge, upon which Commodore Dewey actually stood when he told someone else to start banging away at the Spanish at Cavite. (The brass steps on the bridge of the real USS Olympia in Philadelphia are supposed to indicate where he stood at the time, but the flying bridge was removed long ago so... who knows?) The flying bridge was on steel posts extending up and out over the forward turret. Since the two 8" guns were directly below him, maybe it was removed by Dewey when he realized that his trousers were singed up to his knees! Back to the kit. Its fun to build and will look great on your shelf. Roger Clemens Hinsdale, Illinois USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: Colin Ritchie Subject: Flat coat Blues >> I don't normally flat coat my models, but due to a rather glossy finish of one of the colours on the Belfasts hull, I am forced to. I use the Testors Dullcote from the bottle thinned with rubbing alcohol for use in my airbrush. The last time I used this stuff it left a white haze all over my Ark Royal, totally ruining it. Can somebody please tell me what might have went wrong. Did I not thin it enough or what? Is there another product that anyone can recommend that is better and less troublesome? << The white residue is unfortunately, quite common when applying matt varnish, and it's usually caused by a build-up of the varnish. I too top coat my ship models as the final part of the build process, but I use the Aeromaster matt acrylic varnish. Those of you who build aircraft as well as ships will probably be aware of the really excellent range of Aeromaster acrylic paints. They are easy to spray, and dry to a really tight hard finish. The matt varnish is a really excellent product, thin with water, (or car windscreen wash, just a drop or two is required), and spray. Its inert enough to spray over almost anything without damaging the underlying paint, and is generally the way to go. Hope this Helps Colin Ritchie Scotland -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: Shane Subject: Semtex hints Hi gang, Has anyone any idea of which Humbrol paint to use for semtex?? Regards, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Jeff Herne" Subject: Trivia points update I missed a couple of folks in the last update of the points running. In the future, if you see a post and your name is missing, don't fret. I usually send in the results and answers around 10am EST, or just before Shane posts SMML. Sometimes, I'll get a response BEFORE SMML arrives but AFTER I've sent the post. So here are the totals as of the completion of Round 3 but BEFORE Round 4 is posted... Correct responses for Question 3 were from: Douglas_J_Martin@email.msn.com - 2pts. Richa5011@aol.com - 2pts. John.Sutherland@amcom.co.nz - 2pts. YHSAIO@aol.com - 2pt. sarup@intnet.mu.com -1pt. The standings through 3 rounds: Richa5011@aol.com - 3pts. YHSAIO@aol.com - 3pts. John.Sutherland@amcom.co.nz - 2pts. THenrys@aol.com - 2pts. Douglas_J_Martin@email.msn.com - 2pts. Christopher.Herron@PSS.Boeing.com - 1pt. sanartjam@aol.com - 1pt. sarup@intnet.mu.com - 1pt. All replies are sent to: mailto:jherne@hotmail.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: FS: USS Clark photos For sale 27 photos of USS CLARK FFG-11 for $5.00 plus 3.00 for shipping and handling charge. Craig Bennett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Books & Atlanta For Sale Hi SMML, Just a few things to sell: 1) The Italian Navy in World War II by James Sadkovich, 1994, 379 pp: US$49 plus shipping 2) Navies of the Second World War: The Soviet Navy Volumes I and II by Jurg Meister, 1972, with dust jackets, 150pp & 152pp: US$29 plus shipping 3) Blue Water Navy 1/350 USS Atlanta: US$149 plus shipping 4) Skywave E-4 Equipment for Modern Ships 4: US$12 plus shipping Thanks, Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume