Subject SMML27/09/99VOL681 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 00:45:38 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: IJN Greens 2: USS Guam Questions 3: Re: Cyclone Class PC Kit 4: Re: Spithead Review 1937 5: Re: Carrier horns 6: Cyclone PC & History Channel 7: Re: Capital Ship Representatives on 1937 Spithead International Naval Review 8: Gneisenau in Cerberus 9: Capital Ship Representatives on 1937 Spithead International Naval 10: Re: Gneisenau in Cerberus 11: Re: Gneisenau @ Cerberus 12: 1937 Spithead Review 13: Re: 1937 Spithead Review 14: Oerlikon magazine markings 15: Gneisenau & Cerberus 16: Looking for a book 17: Re: Diosol 18: Bogue class carriers. 19: Soviet carrier details - who, where? 20: Re: Gneisenau & Cerberus -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: A new NRG Shop Note 2: WEM Update -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "K. Hagerup" Subject: IJN Greens I just picked up the Hasegawa 1/700 Zuiho. Any suggestions for the light and dark green camouflage colors? Thanks, Ken -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: John Sheridan Subject: USS Guam Questions Now that my BWN USS Massachusetts model is safe aboard the USS Salem, I have cleared the building slips so that I can begin construction of the new Classic Warships 1/350th scale USN Alaska kit. I have deceided to build her as USS Guam (CB2) in her as delivered scheme of MS 32/7c. The problem I am having is that MS 32/7c is a three-tone scheme constisting of Black, Light Gray 5-L, and either Navy Blue 5-N or Ocean Gray 5-O. Judging by B&W photos, it is hard to tell whether Ocean Gray or Navy Blue is the correct color to use because they are basically look to be the same contrast in existing photos. It also appears that USS Guam was the only ship I can find that carried the MS 32/7c scheme and shee only carried it for a short time before being repainted into MS 22. Does anyone know of a color photo that might show USS Guam in her MS 32/7c configuration? Does anyone have a good argument for either Ocean Gray or Navy Blue for MS 32/7c ? I would like to know soon because the model is now under construction and I need to know before getting too deep in the kit. John Sheridan What I do to Spammers: http://microscale.com/images/N2.jpg I am not a Member of the Lumber Cartel (tinlc) and I am not Unit #631 Last last place on earth I would look for the Lumber Cartel(tm) is http://come.to/the.lumber.cartel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Sean D. Hert" Subject: Re: Cyclone Class PC Kit >> Seconded! I'll take a set of three in 1/700 for dioramic purposes, and one in a larger scale for display. BTW: On what show did you see them? US or Canadian History Channel? << US History Channel, the show; Great Ships: Special Warfare Ships. I just want a larger-ish kit. Plus, they have that neat modern camo schemes, all angled and multi-colored. Sean D. Hert Webmeister, MBG Site: http://www.netwalk.com/~popev/bg/ "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence" -Napoleon Buonapart -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "graham" Subject: Re: Spithead Review 1937 I just happen to have the book here Royal Navy Reviews 1935-1977 *grin* This is the ships (foreign) at that review. NAME TYPE COUNTRY MORENO BATTLESHIP ARGENTINA CUBA CRUISER CUBA NIELS IUEL COASTAL DEFENCE SHIP DENMARK KALEV SUB ESTONIA VAINAMOINEN COASTAL DEFENCE SHIP FINLAND DUNKERQUE BATTLESHIP FRANCE ADMIRAL GRAF SPEE BATTLESHIP GERMANY GIORGIOS AVEROFF CRUISER GREECE ASIGARA CRUISER JAPAN JAVA CRUISER NETHERLANDS BARTOLOMEU DIAS SLOOP PORTUGAL BURZA DESTROYER POLAND REGINA MARIA DESTROYER ROMANIA CISCAR DESTROYER SPAIN DROTTNING VICORIA BATTLESHIP SWEDEN KOCATEPE DESTROYER TURKEY NEW YORK BATTLESHIP USA MARAT BATTLESHIP USSR -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: James Corley Subject: Re: Carrier horns Hey, I'm back. I finally got the bugs out of the new computer. Compaq doesnt believe their average customer is intelligent enough to use a windows install disk, so they thoughtfully include a restore disk that reformats the hard drive to "reset to factory specs" Talk about a pain in the butt. Anyway, as I am catching up on two weeks of SMML, i have seen many posts about the bridle catcher similar to the one below: >> From: "K. Hagerup" Subject: Nimitz Carrier Question The extentions at the end of the catapult tracks were to catch the launch bridle on earlier aircraft. All the current US carrier (fixed-wing) aircraft use a launch bar on the nose gear. << Which is not true....the USN still flies one bridle launched plane in large numbers, the TA-4J and various A-4E/F OpFor types, and another in smaller numbers, the T-2C. This is why some of the carriers still have the catchers. The have to support CNTRA when the boys "go to the boat" for CarQuals. I dont know if this has been covered already, if so you get to read it again (that's novel, huh?) ....BTW, still see A-4s & T-2s coming to NAS Atlanta for approaches from NPA & NMM, after living with them off & on all my life, it is good to see the old birds can still fly. Also, the USN does provide limited operational support to foreign carrier navies. As such there is a requirement to operate Etendards (FN & Argies), Corsairs (FN), and a few other types in wartime. This is why, among other reasons, all western carrier types go thru USN development centers....to make sure they can operate on our equipment (which is their equipment, too, for the most part). Their pilots go thru our USN schools for the same reasons, commonality, interoperability and economics. >> From: Bradford Chaucer  Subject: Re: Carrier "Horns" OK, we've pinned down that one, now, what were the purpose of somewhat similar looking structures on the side edges of the decks of WWII US Carriers?? << These were outriggers to park planes further off the flying areas to conserve space. In some photos, the ESSEX antennae, when laid horizontal for Flight Ops, look similar due to the angle & resolution. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: James Corley Subject: Cyclone PC & History Channel >> I was wondering if anyone knew of a plastic kit available for a Cyclone class PC? After watching the special on the History Channel last night, I want to build one of these! << >> Seconded! I'll take a set of three in 1/700 for dioramic purposes, and one in a larger scale for display. BTW: On what show did you see them? US or Canadian History Channel? << Watching this AM (Sunday 9/26), there will be a Navy Seals show tonight. The ad featured seals firing from the fwd 20mm gun. I was aboard Whirlwind in 96, got 6 rolls of photos for the express purpose of designing a kit, but have yet to find a source for the hull lines. I have rebuffed by the yard PAO (Bollinger). I hope to make a good contact at the USNI symposium this week in Va Beach. Anybody else going? James -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: dhjonespsm@juno.com Subject: Re: Capital Ship Representatives on 1937 Spithead International Naval Review >> Could anyone please kindly tell me those capital ship representatives from each country on the 1937 Spithead International Naval Review? << There were 18 foreign warships present at the 1937 Spithead review as follows: Battleship - MORENO - Spain Cruiser - CUBA - Cuba Coastal Defense Ship - NIELS IUEL - Denmark Minelayer - KALEV - Estonia Coastal Defense Ship - VAINAMOINEN - Finland Battleship - DUNKERQUE - France Pocket BB - GRAF SPEE - Germany Cruiser - GIORGIOS AVEROFF - Greece Cruiser - ASHIGARA - Japan Cruiser - JAVA - Netherlands Sloop - BARTOLOMEU DIAS - Portugal Destroyer - BURZA - Poland Destroyer - REGINA MARIA - Romania Destroyer - CISCAR - Spain Coastal Defense Ship - DROTTNING VICTORIA - Sweden Destroyer - KOCATEPE - Turkey Battleship - NEW YORK - United States Battleship - MARAT - USSR Daniel Jones Plastic Ship Modeler magazine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Jean-Paul Binot" Subject: Gneisenau in Cerberus >> Can anyone tell me for sure if Gneisenau had a turret catapult during the channel dash?My research is not accurate, and if anyone can help, I'd appreciate it. I know it was removed after 1941, but I don't know when. << For sure, Gneisenau did not have a turret catapult during the channel dash (Operation Cerberus), nor had Scharnhorst, for that matter. Scharnhorst retained her catapult as built on top of the hangar until her loss. Gneisenau had hers rebuilt (while in Brest) inside a larger hangar amidships, with sliding lateral doors. The installation was tested in port, but was probably never used in operations. I am unsure whether the ships carried their full complement of aircraft during Cerberus. Any opinion from the assembled wisdom of SMML? Scharnhorst was supposed to have one Ar196 on the catapult, while Gneisenau was designed to carry one on top of the hangar. On both ships, this was in addition to two more (I believe) in the hangar. Incidentally, what about Prinz Eugen and her aircraft complement? Jean-Paul Binot -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Jean-Paul Binot" Subject: Capital Ship Representatives on 1937 Spithead International Naval >> Could anyone please kindly tell me those capital ship representatives from each country on the 1937 Spithead International Naval Review? I know Graf Spee from Germany, Gangut from Soviet Union, is it right? How about others? << Dunkerque represented France. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: John Clements Subject: Re: Gneisenau in Cerberus >> Can anyone tell me for sure if Gneisenau had a turret catapult during the channel dash?My research is not accurate, and if anyone can help, I'd appreciate it. I know it was removed after 1941, but I don't know when. << Quoting from Breyer's book in the Schiffer series: In the autumn of 1941 a new aircraft system was installed at Brest. This had been advocated on the basis of experience during Atlantic service and was to include not only a greater number of airplanes but also better hangar and service facilities. In place of the old catapult, a new hangar, some 27 meters long, 7 meters high and 6 metres wide, was built, inside which a 14 meter catapult was built. This could be turned 360 degrees, for which a sliding door on each side could be opened (in the following order: rear door aft, middle door forward past forward door). This provided an opening somewhat over 13 meters long and barely 6 meters at its greatest height. Thus the airplane could be launched out of its hangar. A second plane could be housed in the rear part of the hangar, a third on the roof, in each case with its wings removed and shored along its fuselage. To be ready for launching, the catapult had to be swung into crosswise position; only then could the wings be mounted. The process had to be done in opposite order when the plane was brought in. It was not possible to open the hangar roof. Except for a few test takeoffs, this new system was never used. The book has diagrams showing the layout of the new arrangements, which show up on photographs taken in the harbour and during the Channel dash. Apparently it was planned to build a new mainmast against the rear edge of the hangar but this was not carried out. The Heller kit has the new hangar, rather than the old, but wrongly mounts a catapult on top! Hope this helps. John Clements -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Gneisenau @ Cerberus A British aerial photo of SCHARNHORST and GNEISENAU in drydock at Brest prior to Cerberus shows that GNEISENAU no longer had a turret catapult fitted. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "John Rule" Subject: 1937 Spithead Review The foreign ships attending the 1937 Spithead Review were as follows:- Admiral Graf Spee Pocket Battleship Germany Asigara Cruiser Japan Bartolomeu Dias Sloop Portugal Burza Destroyer Poland Ciscar Destroyer Spain Cuba Cruiser Cuba Drottning Victoria Armoured Ship Sweden Dunkerque Battleship France Giorgios Averoff Cruiser Greece Java Cruiser Holland Kalev Submarine Estonia Kokatepe Destroyer Turkey Marat Battleship USSR Moreno Battleship Argentina New York Battleship USA Niels Iuel Armoured Ship Denmark Regina Maria Destroyer Roumania Vainamoinen Armoured Ship Finland Trust the above helps. There were in addition 145 British ships but these are too numerous for my typing skills. John Rule -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: IBea351423@aol.com Subject: Re: 1937 Spithead Review FOREIGN CAPITAL SHIPS AT SPITHEAD May 1937 CORONATION NAVAL REVIEW Hi Loiloi SOVIET UNION: MARAT ARGENTINA: MORENO U.S.A.: NEW YORK FRANCE: DUNKERQUE GERMANY: GRAF SPEE Cruisers present: JAPAN: ASHIGARA HOLLAND: JAVA GREECE: AVEROFF Ian -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: Oerlikon magazine markings I have seen several 20mm Oerlikon magazines (both in the UK and the US) with one or two broad grey chevrons painted on the black of the magazine. Does any of you experts out there have any idea what the purpose was? Robert Lockie Cambridge UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Clifford Franklin Subject: Gneisenau & Cerberus Bob, The turret catapult was removed from Gneisenau in February or March, 1940, so was not in place during Op. Cerberus, the Channel Dash. Photos of it being removed whilst an engineering class is held quayside have appeared in a number of German publications. The main catapult in front of the main mast was also still in place, but I am not sure if any aircraft were carried on the actual operation. cheers, Cliff Franklin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: GKingzett@aol.com Subject: Looking for a book SMMLies, I too am looking for USS San Francisco (CA-38) A Technical History, by Chuck Hansen, self published in 1978? and reprinted in 1981. I can't find the request made in the last few days in this list for the same topic. I'm not trying to compete for the book, that person has first priority; after he has made a satisfactory deal, I would be very pleased to discuss purchase of a second volume with whomever might be willing to sell. Gary Kingzett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Craig Brown" Subject: Re: Diosol Floquil made a product called "Barrier" for use on plastic and it had its own thinner bottled as thinner for barrier. I have spray painted plastic with the old Floquil but you must use very light coats.. The old Diosol does funny things to the new Floquil paint but the new "Thinner for Spray Painting seems to work okay with the new Floquil paints. Craig Brown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Donald Bridge Subject: Bogue class carriers. Hi Gang I'm looking for references for the Bogue class carriers, Card, Core, Breton and Croatian, particularly Croatian, in their 1960's fitment as aircraft transports. Also does anyone know of any post SCB-110 Midway kits that may be available. Thanks Don Bridge Sarajevo, Bosnia -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Mike.Dunn@dresdner-bank.com Subject: Soviet carrier details - who, where? Hi all, I've recently acquired the Sovier aviation cruisers Kiev and Minsk in 1/700. I understand from Caroline @ WEM that I need the GMM PE frets to detail them. While I will be getting these, does anyone know if there are any others around? Additionally, I would also like to have alternate aircraft in 1/700 to those in the kits - these are the Yak 36 and the KA-25. Anyone know where I can get these? Cheers, Mike PS - I've reviewed these kits on http://www.mikedunn.freeserve.co.uk\smml -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "Jean-Cyrille WAAG" Subject: Re: Gneisenau & Cerberus During operation Cerberus, the Gneisenau still had the main catapult but no more turret catapult. The Caesar turret catapult was removed in March 1940. Source is "Marines : Sharnhorst & Gneisenau" Jean-Cyrille -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Gene Larson Subject: A new NRG Shop Note A new shop note has been placed on the NRG web site. It is a comprehensive (hopefully) mini article on Glues and Adhesives. Please look it over and if anyone has any comments, additions, corrections, etc., please let me know (OFF LIST PLEASE). Go to the NRG web site and the Ship Modeler's Shop Notes section is toward the bottom of the home page. Note the date on the article is 8/1/99. The delay in posting was due to waiting for responses to requests to use copyrighted materials. Gene Larson, Alexandria, Virginia mailto:genenrg@Naut-Res-Guild.org Nautical Research Guild, Inc. http://www.Naut-Res-Guild.org "A non-profit, tax exempt, charitable, educational organization with international membership, dedicated to maritime research and accurate ship model building." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: WEM Update Hi guys, Please check out my updated pages for new stuff. The UP launchers are now here in 1/700 scale, as are a number of IJN aircraft: WEM PRO 7030 1/700 U.P. LAUNCHERS (x3) 1.57 POUNDS ($2.50) NEW AIRSTRIKE 700 ITEMS AS 7192 1/700 Kawanishi E7 K2 (Alf) Float Seaplane Reconnaissance (x3) 2.95 POUNDS ($4.70) AS 7193 1/700 Aichi E16A1 Zui-in (Paul) (x3) 2.95 POUNDS ($4.70) AS 7181 1/700 Sikorsky CH-53E Super Stallion WITH ETCHED BRASS (x2) 4.22 POUNDS ($6.70) AS 7150 1/700 Boeing B25 Mitchell (x3) 2.95 POUNDS ($4.70) AS 7153 1/700 De Havilland Mosquito (x3) 2.95 POUNDS ($4.70) AS 7162 1/700 Curtiss P40 Kittyhawk (x5) 2.95 POUNDS ($4.70) AS 7163 1/700 Mitsubishi A5M CLAUDE (x5) 2.95 POUNDS ($4.70) http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/news.htm Thanks! Caroline Carter WHITE ENSIGN MODELS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume