Subject: SMML29/09/99VOL683 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 23:46:07 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: USS Guam 2: Re: Pre-WWII USN deck colors 3: Re: Last US PT Boat 4: Re: RICHELIEU colors 5: Re: USS GUAM 6: Re: USS Lexington CVT-16 7: Color Questions 8: AVT-16 9: Re: Last US PT Boat 10: Dazzle Camouflage 11: 1980s destroyer/FFG Firehose formats 12: Tokyo Bay Mooring Plan 13: Decal article 14: Russian colours 1904/05 15: 20mm Oerlikon Cannon 16: Sterling American Scout 17: IJN book 18: Japanese Ship Model Web Sites 19: Re: Bathtubs on US Navy ships 20: Re: Horns, CVT & CVEs 21: Re: USS Lexington (AVT-16) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: USS Lexington CVT-16 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: John Sheridan Subject: USS Guam >> There is no way Guam carried 5-N Navy Blue in place of 5-O Ocean Gray. The photos I have clearly show the contrast differences between the two colors.<< I realized that I transposed Ocean Gray and Dull Black ONLY after I read my message the next day (of course! ). I did mean to say black vs Navy Blue instead of Ocean Gray vs Navy Blue. >> Insofar as Dull Black being replaced with 5-N, I'd recommend asking John Snyder or Randy Short about that one, but my vote goesto Dull Black. << My guess is on Dull Black as well judging as to how the Navy was painting ships during that time. Let's see what John Snyder sez.......... John Sheridan What I do to Spammers: http://microscale.com/images/N2.jpg I am not a Member of the Lumber Cartel (tinlc) and I am not Unit #631 Last last place on earth I would look for the Lumber Cartel(tm) is http://come.to/the.lumber.cartel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Pre-WWII USN deck colors The color you are seeking is #20 Standard Deck Gray (included in our U.S. Navy Set 1 paint chips). John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Last US PT Boat That would likely be PT-309, a 78-foot Higgins boat undergoing restoration in (I believe) Houston. She may be the last of her particular manufacture, but I don't believe she the last U.S. PT boat; I believe there's an Elco at Battleship Cove. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: RICHELIEU colors Translation from the French gives the colors as Dull Black, Ocean Gray, and Haze Gray. All horizontal surfaces were Deck Blue per USN practice, EXCEPT the tops of the main battery turrets which were Haze Gray until August (at which time they presumably were painted Deck Blue). John Snyder Snyder & SHort Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: USS GUAM I have to concur with Jeff: 5-N might have been substituted for Dull Black, but not for 5-O. And in the absence of firm evidence to the contrary, I'd stay with Dull Black on GUAM. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Rod Dauteuil Subject: Re: USS Lexington CVT-16 To Doc Wiseman, Revell's USS Lexington was not a WWII carrier as you reference. This 1957 kit represents the Lex in her post 1950's configuration and included an angle flight deck and most other retrofits that post-war Essex class carriers received (SCB-127 program). The kit also comes with T28's, S2's, T2's, F4's, and UH1's. Although out of production, you can still find them at swaps and on Ebay (I bought 2 there). A good reference book to look for is "The USS Lexingtons CV2 and CV16, the Lady Lex and the Blue Ghost", author unknown. Good photos in that book. The Revell kit will need some work and scratchbuilding, but an accurate Lex is not out of the question for somebody with moderate skills. Keep in mind that Revell used the same molds for their other Essex Class SCB-127 carriers (Wasp, Hornet, and Yorktown). I personally think using the Lindbergh carrier for a starting point is going about it the hard way. Good luck and let me know if you have questions. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Patrick Roach Subject: Color Questions Hello all, Got a few color questions. 1. H.M.S. Hood's bridge decks; May 1941? 2. Kaga's flight deck; December 1941? 3. Bismarck's turret tops; May 21, 1941 @ 1:15 pm (GMT)? 4. Yamato's main deck; April 1945? (Russell Spurr suggests camo gray, or was that grey. Hmmm.) Appreciate any opinions! Pat PS- If it is not apparent that item 3 is a poor attempt @ humor, please reconsider. Hi Pat, Try the HMS Hood site at: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/2966/ As for question two - I still go for the polka dot scheme ;-). Regards, Shane - celebrating 9 years of wedded bliss with a most charming lady today ;->> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Steven P. Allen" Subject: AVT-16 Doc Wiseman wrote: >> Revell, at one time, put out a kit of the Lexington but it was in her WWII configuration. D&S lists this as the best starting point for the conversion. Any body know where I might lay my hands on one? I have the Lindberg Yorktown (1/525) and could work from there if need be. << The 1/540 Revell kit is of The Blue Ghost in the '60s/'70s; ie, just what you need from that persepctive. It has been recently reissued--I saw a half-dozen on clearance at Hobby Lobby in Jeffereson City, MO, just last week. It is standard Revell fare from that period: good basic shapes, solid railings, clunky details. I suspect that lots of work and the right PE sets would help tremendously. This kit was also offered as Hornet, Wasp, Bonhomme Richard (maybe more), though with different details and a/c (eg, the Hornet and Wasp include little space capsules, depicting NASA recovery work). The kits show up on eBay with fair regularity. (Revell may have boxed their 1/720 Essex class as Lexington at one time, but that's a different kit altogether.) Lindberg also did a SCB-27B/C Essex, in 1/900(?), but it's going to be a LOT more work. . . -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: Last US PT Boat >> There is a Houston, Texas "in water" yacht/boat show this weekend that is advertising "last U. S. P/T boat" with armament. Would appreciate any feedback or comments. << As written ("last U.S. P/T boat"), this is pure media hype. The boat is probably PT 309, a 78' Higgins PT that was recently restored by the Nimitz Museum. It is certainly not the last US PT boat. What it is is the last remaining PT to have seen combat that has been restored to its approximate configuration during WWII. There are two restored (albeit inaccurately) PTs at Fall River, MA (PT 617 & 796), at least two more 625 series Higgins boats on the West Coast, and a variety of private vessels converted from PTs still in existence. Al Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Norman Samish Subject: Dazzle Camouflage Jeff, perhaps you or others can enlighten me about dazzle patterns. I can only guess why these camouflage schemes were used. Were they effective? Were they used because, in difficult visibility situations, they can make a ship's outline difficult to see? Does the observer unconsciously interpret the dazzle pattern as "visual noise" and ignore it? (That seems kind of farfetched.) I've seen photos where it makes a big ship look smaller, but certainly not invisible. Are there other reasons? Norm Samish -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Raynor Johnston" Subject: 1980s destroyer/FFG Firehose formats Hi, I notice from some detail sketches of modern image warships that there are seemigly two styles of fire hoses illustrated...one basket type with the hoses 'laid into them' and another where there is a support above the basket maybe 5 foot higher up and the hose's are draped from basket over the support back to the basket in big loops. Is there a general practice where each type might be found. I am modelling a 1980 JMSDF Hatsuyuki class and do not have quite the detail to identify where these may be located though I have excellent detail of the items themselves. (scale 1:72) thanks Raynor Johnston (NZ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Tokyo Bay Mooring Plan I received the following request from the folks at the USS Missouri Memorial. Could anyone possibly help here? "I do have one humungous favor to ask. Would you know a source for the Tokyo Bay, Sept 2, 1945 ship mooring plan? We would give arms, legs and eye teeth for that information. Any help in that direction is muchly appreciated beyond words." I'm not sure where we'd put all the body parts, but can anyone help here? Best regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Decal article For those of you who want to make your own high quality decals, there is an excellent article in the latest issue of FSM. They use the Alps printer you've been hearing about on this list. Check it out. Rusty White Flagship Models inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Colin Troup Subject: Russian colours 1904/05 Wilson (Battleships in Action) describes the Russian ships at Port Arthur as being painted "a dark blackish-brown colour" (and the fleet at Tsushima as having black hull and upperworks and "bright salmon yellow" funnels). I have also seen references to "olive grey", which I am guessing is the first colour referred to by Wilson. Can anyone give me an idea of what this might look like (for example by reference to the nearest Humbrol equivalent)? Thanks very much. Colin Troup -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Dengar Subject: 20mm Oerlikon Cannon I am trying to find either a scale drawing or the measurements for a 20mm Oerlikon Cannon as carried by by US Warships and subs during World War 11. Can anyone Help?? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: kenny_II Subject: Sterling American Scout Global Outlet was listing the Missouri kit. I just went to their site and it shows out of stock. They may be able to get you current contact information. http://www.globaloutlet.com/store/ Tim Maleck -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: JERRYC988@aol.com Subject: IJN book hello to all SMML members Can anybody advise me as to a good book about ww II japan destroyers, one that has photos, drawings and the whole nine yards as the saying goes. Also might as well throw in any good books on ww II japan cruisers,battleships and carriers. This is for research and reference prior to blowing off the dust and opening the box. Thanks a bunch and kept up the good work. jerryc988@aol.com Hi Jerry, The Lacroix/Wells Japanese Cruisers of the Pacific War is by all accounts a good start for cruisers. Regards, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Michael Eisenstadt Subject: Japanese Ship Model Web Sites Folks: I've been surfing the web in Japan over the past few days and have discovered a number of sites that might be of interest to a few of you. (Keep in mind my interest is WWII Royal Navy and U.S. Navy, and these sites reflect this bias--there is, naturally, much, much more for IJN fans on these and other sites). It seems that there's a whole world out there that we know very little about but with which we need to cultivate contacts: 1) "OGI Web Site" http://www.246.ne.jp/~ogi/eww2no1.html A modelers gallery with build-ups in 1/700 scale of various British and French Warships. Then, press the "home" button and cruise the rest of the site. Quite nice! 2) http://member.nifty.ne.jp/~rouman/koubou.htm and http://member.nifty.ne.jp/~rouman/kansen/kansen.htm Apparently the web site of a cottage industry manufacturer -- Roumankoubou -- that produces WWII era British destroyer kits, or conversion/detail kits for existing models (it is hard for me to tell). It seems that models or detail kits are available for various A-I class destroyers, a J class destroyer, an O class destroyer (I think this may be a detail set intended for the Skywave/Tamiya kit), and they are advertising a future release of a British M class destroyer. From the photos, the kits appear somewhat crude, but hey, who's afraid of a challenge! The second URL is a construction article for the Skywave/Tamiya O class destroyer. Also, be sure to check out the model gallery ("others"), especially that model of that Soviet Gangut class battleship (with that crooked smokestack that looks like its straight out of a Dr.Seuss book!) and that beautiful build of the HMS Howe! 3) http://www.incl.ne.jp/~momo120/MO_MAK_T.HTML A beautiful review and construction article (in Japanese) concerning the WEM 1/350 HMS Hood including how to lay down a wooden deck (or so it would appear). You have to see this to believe it! 4) http://www2.famille.ne.jp/~kurimata/link.html A links page from one modelers home page that will bring you to many other ship model pages not listed in this message. If you don't read Japanese (I don't) navigation will be a bit difficult. There's a lot of hit and miss, dead ends, and backtracking involved, but in the end, the slogging is very rewarding. While the construction and presentation standards of many of the models on these web sites is often not great, it is evident that this hobby is pursued with a great deal of zest and pleasure in Japan -- as evidenced by the relatively large number of ship model related web sites featuring the work of modelers who take obvious pride in their handiwork -- and after all, this is what this hobby is all about, isn't it? More power to them! I would like to ask our members who read Japanese, if they wouldn't mind, to alert us, from time to time, of noteworthy ship related sites in Japan, or articles or photos on these sites (many seem to be updated quite often) that might be of interest to our list members. Likewise, perhaps they could alert us of the presence of cottage-industry manufacturers with new products we might be interested in? (Though as mentioned in earlier volumes, shipping overseas might be a problem.) Happy surfing! Mike Eisenstadt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: SCALSHPYRD@aol.com Subject: Re: Bathtubs on US Navy ships Just to throw a monkey wrench into this beat-up trivia question.... The USS Iowa BB-61 was not the only US Navy ship to have a bathtub permanently installed. The USS New Jersey BB-62 also had one, it is shown in Neil Leifers book "Dreadnought Return" published in 1968, there is a photo of a female navy yard worker sitting in the tub, while painting an American Eagle on the bulkhead above it. This photo was taken at the time they were putting the finishing touches on the Jersey prior to her 1968 recommissioning. I do not recall if we removed it during her 1981/82 reactivation at Long Beach or not. Lee Upshaw The Scale Shipyard -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Rick Heinbaugh Subject: Re: Horns, CVT & CVEs Dave Baker mentioned that some CVNs still retain a single "horn" (aka bridle arrester)... For an interesting model, I've seen a few underway photos of CVNs with the single remaining horn (invariably on #1 cat, the stbd bow cat) and a primer colored spot where the #2 cat's horn WAS. I don't think it was just sea trials, there were a good number of aircraft aboard. In other words, at sea without the final paintwork completed. Interesting, if you tend toward works in progeress. Doc: re: CVT - The Revell kit is with the angled deck, appropriate for the ship's CVT rig. Many details are incorrect, but you won't have to update the Lindberg straight-deck kit. I still havn't seen it, but I imagine the GMM 500-6 photo-etch set for the Revell ESSEX-class kit would be great for your project. As a CVT, LEX was unarmed, except for one or two saluting batteries, but I can't see on photos where those were located. The saluting batteries look like old WWII- vintage single 3"50 cal guns, really utilitarian things. When decommissioned, LEX carried SPS-10 & SPS-49 radars. To revisit an old thread, LEX's callsign was NBGV. If you want to add a dash of color, you could make a hoist of these four flags, reading from top to bottom. You can see them in color at: http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/communications/flags/flags.html CVE reference? Both CASABLANCA & COMMENCEMENT BAY classes were twin screw, single rudder. A great book is "Escort Carriers and Aviation Support Ships of the US Navy", by Stefan Terzibaschitsch. It has a photo or two of every US CVE, as well as every other aircraft-carrying or -servicing cat and dog. CVE fans NEED this book. Rick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Neklason" Subject: Re: USS Lexington (AVT-16) Doc, Go to http://www.usslexington.com . You'll find the 1/540 Revell kit (angled deck version) for $17.00 + $3.50 shipping. Regards, Glenn E. Neklason -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Shaya Novak" Subject: USS Lexington CVT-16 Is docked at Naval Base Hobbies on it's "Modern Amer. Carrier" page under $20.00 goto: http://www.modelshipbuilding.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume