Subject: SMML04/10/99VOL688 Date Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:17:50 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Canadian Patrol Frigate 2: USS Pennsylvania 3: Ships call signs / USN camouflage 4: OT: Restored Bf.109E 5: Pennant Numbers 6: Light fastness and inkjets 7: Updating old Revell Kits 8: Sea Blue 5-S 9: Re: Decals 10: Re: USS Pennsylvania -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Edgar March's British Destroyers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Ian MacCorquodale" Subject: Canadian Patrol Frigate Hi SMMLies, Just to let you know, my new Photo feature on the Canadian Patrol Frigate, is up along with new pics of the USS Harry Truman, and USS San Jacinto in Halifax. Please stop by for a visit! Cheers, Ian http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/9089/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: John Sheridan Subject: USS Pennsylvania USS Pennsylvania (BB 38) carried the following paint schemes: 1941 MS 1 (Dark Gray / Light Gray) 1942 MS 21 (Navy Blue) 1943 MS 21 (Navy Blue) 1944 MS 31a/6b (Navy Blue / Ocean Gray / Haze Gray) 1945 MS 21 (Navy Blue) Floating Drydock (http://www.floatingdrydock.com) carries the pattern for MS 31a/6b John Sheridan @ Microscale Decals http://www.microscale.com If I'm talking Decals, then i'm talking for Microscale, Otherwise I am speaking for myself. What I do to Spammers: http://microscale.com/images/N2.jpg I am not a Member of the Lumber Cartel (tinlc) and I am not Unit #631 Last last place on earth I would look for the Lumber Cartel(tm) is http://come.to/the.lumber.cartel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: John Sheridan Subject: Ships call signs / USN camouflage As Don Preul stated, I will be adding the signal flags and the entire list of USN ship call signs to the warship Camouflage site sometime this week. When the page is finished, I will announce it right here on SMML. I have recently added lots of new data to the Warship Camouflage website over the last few days. Lots on new paint schemes for various destroyers have been added to the site. I am still working on the explaination of the measures used by the USN but it will be online as soon as I finish it. Also, I have also been asked by several people to think about adding other countries to the website. I would be more than happy to do this, but my information on foreign paint schemes is extremely limited. If someone wishes to contribute enough data to get a foreign listing started, I would be happy to add it to the site. The USN Camouflage website can be reached at: http://home.earthlink.net/~jrsheridan/ John Sheridan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Kenneth H. Goldman" Subject: OT: Restored Bf.109E This is off topic, but some of us model aircraft as well, so I thought I'd share some of the photographs I shot of a just-restored Bf.109E out at Chino, California airport on Saturday. The aircraft was undergoing several flight tests. Unfortunately, the weather was too hazy most of the day to get decent shots of it in the air. The pix can be seen at http://www.wman.com/~khgold/bf109e.htm Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER http://www.wman.com/~khgold/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Pennant Numbers Hi Tim Pennant numbers were changed in 1940. The physical change would not have been a simultaneous process but have taken place over a period of time. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "James Kloek" Subject: Light fastness and inkjets Tim Perry makes an excellent point about light fastness of inkjet inks. They do fade rapidly with time and exposure to light. This is also relevant if you are thinking about using a digital camera and your inkjet printer to capture and preserve your images. Modern photographic papers have outstanding image permanence, inkjet prints do not. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Updating old Revell Kits In the process of rummaging through my old Revell kits and pondering the question "Which of these do I really want to spend the time and money to build up properly" I ran across my late 1980's rerelease of the Revell 1/720th WWII era MISSOURI and two 1/426th ARIZONAs. Taking a good look at these kits again raised some questions. I have a copy of the FSM article on how to detail the ARIZONA. As good as it is (actually, it's darn impressive), one of the things I didn't like was retaining the lackluster 5"/25 and 3"/50 AA guns included with the kit. I've never attempted any scratchbuilding, so the idea of trying to cobble together replacements isn't appealing. I know GMM has a photoetch detail kit available for the kit, but has anyone ever developed replacements for these gun mounts. Given both the somewhat large size of the kit, along with it's odd scale I wouldn't think 1/400 or 1/450th scale parts (even if they were available) would lookright. Of course, I don't know that for sure. The second ARIZONA was bought for a friend of mine in Philly who's favorite battleship of all time is the USS PENNSYLVANIA. The add for the GMM photoetch says it includes parts needed to make a Pennsy. However, my friend wants it worked up as the ship appeared at Pearl Harbor. At that time, the Pennsy's stacked bridge structure was somewhat different than the ARIZONAs. Likewise, the Pennsy had boat davits in place of the ARIZONAs AA guns on the forward end of the quarterdeck. That left me to wonder if anyone has ever developed an alternative aftermarket parts kit to convert/build an accurate 1941 Pennsy using the Revell kit? Next on the list was the 1/720 MISSOURI. I got this kit in '90 mainly because it included instructions for the measure 32/22d razzle dazzle camo scheme. It was something I'd been wanting to try, but wasn't very knowledgable about all the sources that were available back then. I still think this kit has some potential, however the 40mm & 20mm guns bite. The 40mm's don't even have the proper shields. Since this is a relatively small kit, I compared it's 40mm mounts to those in my 1/700 DML SAN DIEGO kit. The latter parts were only slightly (to the point of being almost unoticable) larger. These parts would be a major improvement, but since they sit lower my guess is I'd have to reduce the height of the existing gun tubs. I'm also guessing the diameter of the tubs might have to be enlarged slightly, but I haven't test-fitted the parts. Obviously I'm not going to build this for competion. However, this little test left me wondering if it might be feasable to use aftermarket 1/700 photoetch and aftermarket kit detail sets to build up this kit without them sticking out like a sore thumb. I know it would be easier/better to buy the Fujimi 1/700 MISSOURI kit than to modify this old, odd-scale kit. TBK though, I'm poor, I already have this kit, and I'd like to explore options here before dropping $40+ for a new kit. FWIW, 1/700 isn't my favorite scale to begin with. The size is more reasonable (given my lack of display space), but I almost lost my mind trying to build the Tamiya 1/700 Yamato in HS, and my eyesight isn't what it used to be (diabetes bites!). Given that, I'd rather drop the bucks on the Fujimi SARATOGA (my favorite WWII carrier, that so far at least hasn't shown up in a larger scale). The last issue here pertains to the old USS BOSTON (CAG-1) kit. This is the last of the models I still own that I built back in High School. As good as it is (given my skill level and knowledge at the time), the ship's WAY overdue for a reconstruction. Problem is, I have no idea what scale this model even is. That makes trying to find aftermarket parts difficult. A number of parts have fallen/broken off over the years (some I still have, some have disappeared - mostly radar aerals). Disassembly without destroying the kit has brought about questions of it's own. The lower hull lacks any detail (two rudders, no props or shafts)...can we say scratchbuilding project. I'd like to reconstruct this kit as the BOSTON's sister ship, USS CANBERRA. Any suggestions on this one? Dasvidanya! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar2@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org Hi Derek, From memory & since I have the kit in the same condition(camouflaged with a helluva lot of dust ;-)) ), I think the Boston was approx 1/400. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Sea Blue 5-S One of the continuing threads here and elsewhere has concerned the use of Sea Blue 5-S and the USN camouflage measures for which it was specified: Measure 11 and Measure 12. Many believe that 5-S was in use until June 1942, when the second revision to Ships-2 came out, with specifications for Measures 21 and 22--essentially the same as 11 and 12, but with Navy Blue 5-N replacing 5-S. I have previously cited the fact that, even though the first revision to Ships-2 came out in September 1941 and specified 5-S for Measures 11 and 12, 5-S proved to wear so poorly and fade so quickly that Admiral Ernest J. King, then CINCLANT, ordered its use discontinued by the Atlantic Fleet in October 1941; the Pacific Fleet followed suit a month later. Now, something had to replace 5-S in those measures, and pictorial evidence is that the replacement was Navy Blue 5-N, regardless of whether anyone changed the number of the Measure. You can see it clearly in photos of Measure 11 ships, Measure 12 ships, and Measure 12 (modified) ships. Anyway, in the course of responding to a post elsewhere that had LEXINGTON in Measure 11 with 5-S at the time of her loss at Coral Sea (she may have been wearing Ms.11, but it was 5-N, not 5-S), I once again read over my copies of Ships 2. In the final paragraph of Revision 2, June 1942, in which Measures 21 and 22 are promulgated and which many cite as evidence that 5-N wasn't in use until then, I tripped over the following [which I've obviously read before, without it clicking into place]: "Our use of Measure 21 in Pacific areas, and the British use of their Weatern Approaches System in Northern waters, ARE [my emphasis] good examples of a tactical use of paint...." Notice that the sentence refers to Measure 21 as already being in use, rather than one that will come into use. It's clear that--at least in the case of Measure 21 and the use of 5-N--the second revision to Ships-2 in June 1942 simply promulgated information on systems that were already in widespread use. Want to justify the use of 5-S on a model? You're going to have to define a very narrow window of time. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Mark McKellar Subject: Re: Decals Hi, I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in on this topic. My wife and I own and operate a small newspaper publishing company. As a result, we have a host of high-end design/publishing/image manipulation programs and equipment in our offices. If I can be on any assistance in designing, scaning etc...decal sets, please let me know. Mark -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Re: USS Pennsylvania At Mail Call, jpbinot@cybercable.fr was heard to say... >> I have just received my latest order from WEM, which includes Lorren Perry's Arizona Detail Set for the Revell kit. << First off, thanks for the info on the Lorren Perry parts set for the ARIZONA kit. I had no idea that one existed (notably when I wrote my last message about said kit). >> My references are sketchy when it comes to pre-WWII US battleships (I have focused rather on Kriegsmarine and Marine Nationale) and I would like to draw on the assembled wisdom of SMML. Here are my questions: << This has been an area of facination with me since I was in elementary school, but my resources are limited. Most of the following comes from Norman Friedman's "US BATTLESHIPS A DESIGN STUDY" and Seigfried Breyer's "BATTLESHIPS AND BATTLECRUISERS 1905-1970". >> * Did Pennsylvania carry both radars (XCAM-1 and Mk3) on Dec. 7, 1941 or were they added in Mare Island in March 1942? << Others might call me on this one, but I can't find any evidence that the PENNSYLVANIA was equipped with radar at the time of Pearl Harbor. I can't lay my hands on the book right now, I seem to recall reading that the only two battleships equipped with radar at the time of the attack were the CALIFORNIA (XCAM) and the WEST VIRGINIA (SC). Neither's set was operational because of the state of readiness, and even it they had, the surrounding hilsides would've rendered them all but useless. There's a very good picture of the Pennsy's forward superstructure in the Friedman book showing some of the mods in early 42 (March). This shows the ship with both SRa and SK ariels atop the foremast. >> * Were the 5"/25 guns located as on Arizona? << AFAIK, there was no difference between the two ships in this respect. There might be a difference though in respect to the 3/50 guns (see later) >> * Should I use the gun tubs provided in the GMM set in addition to the gun shields? << From the photos of the ship taken in drydock after the attack, you could use the tubs for the 5"/25s. The shields however weren't installed until the early '42 refit. They were an invention of the Pacific fleet, and the only ship known for sure to have them installed was WEST VIRGINIA (and then, it only had one installed). According to Friedman it's not very clear how many ships had the 5"/25 shields installed at the time of the attack. OTOH, the aforementioned photo of the Pennsy doesn't show her having any so it's a safe bet she didn't. Friedman went on to point out that she received a full complement of shields as part of the 42 refit. >> * What paint scheme is appropriate? It seems to me that Pennsylvania was in Ms1 at Pearl Harbor, but what about later? << At the time of the attack, all US Pacific Fleet Battleships wore the Measure 1 color scheme. According to the chart at John Sheridan's site, she picked up a Measure 21 scheme in 42 and carried it until sometime in 44. My bet is she was given the new make-up job during the early 42 refit. >> * Should I change any other part of the Revell kit besides those Lorren suggests? << Not having been aware of the changes, I can't comment on this. However, these are some things I do know. 1) The Pennsy's bridge tower was of a completely different design than her sister because she was originally built to serve as the US Fleet Flagship. Most books point out her enlarged conning tower as being one of the most promenent features that distinquished her from the ARIZONA. 2) The positioning of the platforms on the mainmast was somewhat different from that of the ARIZONA's. 3) According to Breyer, the Pennsy's funnel was raised approx 1.5 meters in 38/39. 4) The Pennsy never had the "Birdbath" machine gun platform atop her mainmast like the ARIZONA. Accordingly, she had a taller pole/top mast than ARIZONA. 5) Note that the forward most AA guns (abreast of the B Turret) are 3"/50s, not 5"/25s. At the time of the attack, the Pennsy had both of these, while the ARIZONA did not (the ARIZONA had her's landed - leaving only the empty tubs - as part of preparations to mount quad 1.1" mounts in their place (re: Friedman). The closeup photo of the Pennsy's bridge shows her 3"/50s were replaced by quad 1.1" mounts as part of her early '42 refit. MARYLAND was the only battleship to have the 1.1 guns mounted at the time of the attack. 6) Again, according to Friedman, the Pennsy had nine .50 cal machine guns. Where they were mounted he doesn't say. I seem to remember reading that four (two per side) were mounted on the funnel/searchlight platforms. As part of her early 42 refit, these were replaced by sixteen 20mm's. 7) A "Not for sure" issue, but I believe the Vought OS2U Kingfisher was the standard scout-floatplane used by the Pacific battle fleet at the time of Pearl Harbor. In that regard, the planes included with the kit are not correct. IOW, research this one (or hope someone here can help) 8) Another "Not for sure" issue that might be worth mentioning. I've never seen a picture of the Pennsy with the single 3/50 (part 11 - incorrectly identified in the Revell instructions as a 5/25 - with the 5/25 mounts misidentified as 1.1 guns [ARGH]) mount on the quarterdeck like the ARIZONA. Every pre-war drawing & picture of her shows her to have a boat davit in place of these mounts. But...nearly all of these were done prior to her 1940/41 refit. Likewise, the '38 drawing of the ship in the Breyer book shows her ventilator trunks (part 59) to be of a different design than on the ARIZONA. This is something you'll have to research, but beware - photos and drawings of US BBs between 39-41 are reportedly difficult to find. See if you can find a copy of Myron J Smith Jr's "KEYSTONE BATTLEWAGON: USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-39). It's not a be-all & end-all source, but it's relatively inexpensive and has some good drawings and reference information. I bought a copy for my friend last year at a local hobby shop for about $9. You can probably get it though Amazon. I know they carry the same author's book on the CALIFORNIA. If you either collect or have access to FSM magazine, the bow view of a 1/72 scale PENNSYLVANIA (at the Minature World Museum, St Charles, Missouri) was featured in the March '98 issue. You might also want to consider checking out... http://www.usspennsylvania.com It's mainly a historical sight, but there might be something there I missed. Hopes this helps. Dasvidanya! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar2@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Edgar March's British Destroyers Hi Guys, We have just acquired this book secondhand. For those of you who don't know it, "British Destroyers 1892-1953" by Edgar March, is a large format, hardbound title, 539 pages, published in 1966 by Seeley Service and Company. There is no dust-jacket, but the linen covers are in reasonable condition (bumped corners). The binding varies from good to poor throughout the book. There are 3 pages missing, which have been photocopied. These 3 pages are all text. There is some water staining and foxing of some pages. The book is generally well worn, but all plans and photos are there. Although not ex-library, this is the sort of condition we are talking about. However, as many of you know, it is THE ultimate reference on British destroyers. We would like to conduct this as an auction, as we really have no idea what to charge for this book ... by asking folks to submit offers. We will then contact each bidder with the value of the next bid, allowing them to up the bidding if they so wish. When the final bidding is reached, that person gets it! (BTW, last year, we recently acquired a copy of this book in GOOD condition, with a covered dust jacket, for ourselves, for 165.00 pounds). I have seen a copy, rated as "EXCELLENT", as high as 250.00 pounds on the market. The copy we have for sale, would probably fall into the "FAIR" category. I also have a copy of an original........ "Janes All The World's Fighting Ships 1941", with no dust jacket. 529pp, tagged bookmarks still intact. Very good condition throughout, better photo quality than on the facsimiles. Covers all ships from Carriers thru auxilliaries. 60 pages of wartime advertisements included in this edition. The "Final Addenda" clipped in to the early part of the book, makes for grim reading.. Hermes, Dorsetshire, Cornwall, Naiad, Campbeltown, USS's Peary and Langley.... sunk and expended before the book was finally published . Offers taken along similar lines as before. Shipping of these items will be at cost for overseas (air or surface quotes given). Insured delivery will be optional at 4.50 pounds extra. Thanks for your time, Please E-Mail bids to me, Caroline on mailto:xdt22@dial.pipex.com White Ensign Models. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume