Subject SMML22/10/99VOL706 Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:17:06 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Last Dive of I-52 2: 1/700 barrels 3: Ticonderoga whatevers 4: Sub pennants 5: Most used RN name 6: Re: Most named British Navy ship. 7: Re: New Aoshima and Fujimi products 8: Re: Prefixes/IJN/RN names 9: WARSHIP Website 10: Japanese ship prefixes 11: "Richelieu" 12: US National Security at SMML 13: Good Idea 14: Re: On Solder, Landing Craft, and APDs 15: Most-named British Navy ship 16: Most - named Royal Navy ship 17: Ticonderoga Class CG FRAMs ? BS response 18: Pennant Numbers on Subs 19: Re: Gakken Books on IJN Ships 20: Re: Painting Brass Wire Rigging? 21: Brass wire 22: Re: Most-named British Navy ship 23: Re: Ticonderoga Class CG FRAMs? 24: English Navy ship names 25: Re: Ship name prefixes - Italian Navy 26: HMCS Gatineau...The final run 27: Mercure and type MSC 28: Trivia 29: Roll Models: Defense of... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: New 1/350 Scale Carrier set 2: Final trivia question and standings... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Fernando, Yohan" Subject: Re: Last Dive of I-52 >> For anyone who hasn't seen it, the October 1999 issue of National Geographis has an article titled "Last Dive of I-52" << There was also a Nat'l Geographic television special called 'Search for I-52' which covered the same material. Excellent camera images of the sunken sub as well as an interesting (and sad) look into how one man's interest in money, profit and greed got in the way of another man's passion for the submarine's complete exploration. Don't know when the show will air again. Yohan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: 1/700 barrels Hi all There is a simpler way of representing the bore. A little dab of black paint. Looks perfect and you don't have to mess around with drills etc. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Ticonderoga whatevers Hi Gene Sounds like you're succumbing to paranoia and the urge of anyone connected to the military to try and be over-secretive about things. If fellow list members want to discuss things let them and don't try and restrict other peoples wish to speculate and discuss. Remember you don't have to take part Chris Langtree Hi gang, Having worked at HMA Dockyard Garden Is, with a Top Secret clearence, I can understand where Gene is coming from. I can also see where the rest of you are coming from as well. The best bet here IMHO, is to possibly treat threads like this with a bit of caution. Regards, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Sub pennants Hi Felix For what its worth non of the photos I have of wartime British subs show pennant numbers. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Edward Brown" Subject: Most used RN name Warspite (6), Revenge (11) and Exeter (6) are emotive RN Ship names only infrequently used. Big hitters are Active (23), Alert (25), Falcoln (27), Fox (31),Hope (24), Mary (30+), Rose (32),Speedwell (26) British Warship Names (Manning & Walker) list SWALLOW used for 36 RN ships. The listing below is based on ships sloop (old Navy) and corvettes (new Navy) sized and above. Name dates from 1345 3 built in 1544 In RNof 1548 4 20 gunsBuilt in1558. Condemned in 1603 5 34 guns. Built in 1634. Surrendered to Royalists 6 4th rate.ex Gainsborough renamed in 1660. Wrecked 1692 10 Swallow prize 6th rate.Taken in 1962.Surrendered in 1695. 12 4th rate of 1703. Broken up 1728 13 Swallow prize. 5th rate, taken in1705. Wrecked in1711 14 4th rate of 1732. renamed Princess Louisa in1737 15 Sloop. Prize (Galgo) taken in 1742. Sold in 1743 16 Sloop of 1743. Wrecked in 1744 17 Sloop of 1745. Sold in 1769. 18 Sloop of 1769.Foundered in 1777 19 Sloop of 1779. Wrecked in 1781 20 Sloop of 1781. Sold in 1795 22 Sloop of 1795. Sold in 1802 29 Sloop of 1854. Sold in 1867 31 Sloop of 1885. Sold in 1904 32 Destroyer of 1918. Sold in 1936 36 ex German frontier control boat in 1950. Battle Honours Armada 1588 Lowestoff 1665 Four Day's Battle 1666 Orfordness 1666 Texel 1673 Beachy Head 1690 Velez Malaga 1704 Marbella 1705 Toulon 1793 Black Sea 1854-55 Can't believe I did this!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "J. London" Subject: Re: Most named British Navy ship. Close, Caroline, but no cigar. Revenge has been named four times, as has Warspite, but is beaten out by Royal Sovereign (six), Hardy, Scorpion and Shark (all five). Mike London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Volker Häusler" Subject: Re: New Aoshima and Fujimi products >> I noticed that on the Upcoming Ship kits page on HobbyLink Japan, among others, it lists from Aoshima the CV Amagi and from Fujimi the O'Brien and the Cushing. All in 1/700. Anyone know more info on these? Is the Amagi just a retooled Unryu/Katsuragi kit or was the Amagi significantly different? I'm also assuming the O'Brien and Cushing are the WWII-era destroyers. All have scheduled release dates between October and December of this year. Any more info to whet the appetite? << I´m afraid this news are not as good as they seem to be in the first moment. While a lot of modelers must be waiting for a Mahan class (Cushing) and Sims class (O´Brien) destroyer, the more probable explanation is that Fujimi is actually announcing two SPRUANCE class DDs (DD 975 and DD 985). Please note that the other annoncements comprise two OH Perry class frigates (FFG 43 Thach and FFG 48 Vandegrift) as well as two Burke class DDG´s (again, the first announcement of "J. S. McCain" raised my hopes that this would be the Mitscher class DD 928/DL3/DDG36, which is one of my firm favourites). Looking on Fujimis announcements, I´m wondering wether this will really be new models or just another Skywave/Revell reissue? It seems we still have to wait for an injection molded pre Fletcher DD! Volker -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "FCR" Subject: Re: Prefixes/IJN/RN names Hi all 1. I must agree with Yohan Fernando, IJN was the prefixe used by allied navies to speak about the Japanese Navy and I believe that I already have saw something about "His Imperial Japanese Majesty Ship" somewhere in the books. I think that the Japanese had classification names for each type of ship's like "kaibokan" for small escorts, etc. For merchant ship's we have the word "Maru" after the ship's name and I believe that it means "ship". Ship's smaller or equal to destroyers weren't considered "true" or "big" warship's (what a terrible consideration error, the IJN destroyers have fighted better then any other japanese warship) and they don't really have the chrysanthemum seal on the bows. 2. Italian Ship's: R.N. means Reggia Nave or Royal (Reggia) Ship (Nave) and R.M. means Reggia Marina or Royal (Reggia) Navy (Marina). 3. Most-Named Royal Navy Ship: There was 21 warship's of the Royal Navy named EAGLE since 1592; 21 named ALERT since 1753; 24 named FLY since 1648; 20 named HIND since 1545; 21 named PELICAN since 1577; 26 named SPEEDWELL since 1559 and 24 named SWAN since 1420. I don't know if this means much but. 4. Navy's and Ship Prefixes: There is the Royal Auxiliary Navy - R.A.N. too??? And what ship prefixe for this one??? I.N.S - Indian Navy Ship H.D.M.S. - Her/His Denmark Majesty Ship (official I believe) WWII D.K.M. - Deutschland Kriegsmarine - WWII N.R.P. - Navio da Repôblica Portuguesa (Portuguese Republic Ship) M.G.P. - Marinha de Guerra Portuguesa (Portuguese Navy) Hi Filipe, et al, Wouldn't Royal Auxillary Navy have the same intials as the Royal Aux Air Force ie: RAuxN??? Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Judy Graham" Subject: WARSHIP Website I'm not sure if I'm doing this right (I'm not really computer friendly), but does anyone know what's happening with the WARSHIP website? It's been a-while, and I'm going into "withdrawal". Cheers, Chris Preston, Victoria, B.C. Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Japanese ship prefixes I have a good number of Japanese books on ships (brought back 20 kilos on my last trip to Japan) and none of them list any prefix for Japanese military ships in English or Japanese. Regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: hans bosma Subject: "Richelieu" Hi everybody, I am looking for a picturebook or at least a highly illustrated book dealing with the French battleship "Richelieu". Can you people recommend one? I found a book in the list of Christian Schmidt in Munich from a author called Sarnet. The price is rather high, can anybody tell me: is this book good value for money. Thanks, Hans Bosma -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: GrafSpee34@aol.com Subject: US National Security at SMML Gene writes: >> As an active participant in the CG47 and DDG51 Classes with the Combat System Engineering Agent, may I respectfully suggest this discussion be dropped from the list, on advice of counsel. << Oh, give us a break! The stuff batted around here can also be found at the public library. If anyone is in danger of dropping a classified tidbit, it's only those who are "active participants"... And if these participants lack the self control to prevent posting classified data to the internet, they ought to resign their security clearances-- instead of suggesting that the topic be censored from a public discussion list. Dave Krakow, Esq. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Jeffry J. Fontaine" Subject: Good Idea Hi Tom, SMML & Emil; I just read your installment in the latest SMML, a pity that you had to have that kind of an experience with those folks. After visiting the official model parts yard at http://www.minet.ca/~jmarcp/ I found that the person that maintains these pages has had similar problems in the past with several businesses and individuals, he has created a "SHAME on YOU" page of sorts with brief remarks about each of the wrongdoers. I would recommend something along the same lines be created for the SMML and for all modelers to access when ever they are unsure of the business' past dealings. The more Shame on You remarks by each entry for each transgression would tend to add up and in the end there would be a nice indicator of who to trust and not to trust. As for you inquiry about Schiffer Books, have you tried the Barnes & Noble? I have purchased a schiffer book through them in the past. Another recommendation would be by friend Emil Minerich who runs Skyway Models located in Renton, Washington, he might be able to help you out since he is set up to do mail order sales. Skyway Models URL is; http://www.skywaymodel.com/ and Emil's Email address is Skyway@nwlink.com. I took the liberty of giving Emil and the SMML a courtesy copy of this message, so if Shane wishes to publish it, that is for him to decide. If Emil can not provide you with the goods and services you are seeking, I am at least giving him a fair amount of time to respond to let you know. Regards, Jeffry Fontaine IPMS #32709 Bremerton, Washington -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: On Solder, Landing Craft, and APDs The four colors in question are #1 Green, #2 Green, #3 Green, and #4 Brown, as found in our USN Set 2 paint chips. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Dave Swindell Subject: Most-named British Navy ship >> Hmm.. this brings me to ask... what is the most-named British Navy ship, and how many times was she named.. I THINK it could be Warspite or Revenge, both go back to the Sixteenth Century but does anyone know for sure? << How about Ark Royal? That goes back to the Sixteenth Century too. The current one is number five I believe. See you fellow SMMLies at Telford. Dave Swindell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Phil Gollin" Subject: Most - named Royal Navy ship In answer to Carol's query regarding the most named Royal Navy ship, I'm afraid that a quick look at T D Manning and C F Walker's Dictionary of Ships of the Royal Navy shows "Warspite" having been used on only 7 ships, the first being ship built in 1596. Repeating the authors' proviso regarding the varying sizes of the ships and whether they were "King's Ships" or "Private Ships" having been impressed, a quick incomplete look shows that the four most popular names seem to be ; HOPE - 24 ships FALCON - 26 ships (the 27th was a RN Air Station in Malta). The first dating from 1212, and there being 6 ships before 1600. FOX - 30 ships (the 31st was a Naval base at Lerwick) ROSE - 32 ships, the first a King's ship of 1322 and the last a Flower class corvette. There are several other names used between 17 and 23 times, e.g. Active (23), Eagle (23), Fortune (22), Greyhound (22), Lively (22), Hawk (21), Adventure (20), Cygnet (20), Hind (20), Chatham (19), Pelican (19), Hunter (19), Lion (17) Regards, PHIL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: DaveRiley1@aol.com Subject: Ticonderoga Class CG FRAMs ? BS response Gene Katz wrote: >> As an active participant in the CG47 and DDG51 Classes with the Combat System Engineering Agent, may I respectfully suggest this discussion be dropped from the list, on advice of counsel. Let's switch topics << To this I say: Huhhh!!! If ever I saw a bunch of BS, this response is it. Unless I'm missing something - and I may very well be - to tell this SMML group to drop a subject, with the strong implication that national security is involved, is pure hogwash. As in HOGWASH!! While I do not know the correct answer, the original question was a legitimate one and deserves a better answer than this response provided. Dave Riley CDR, USN (Retired) Portsmouth, RI -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Clifford Franklin Subject: Pennant Numbers on Subs Yes, almost all British subs during the Second World War carried large pennant numbers painted on their conning towers. I don't know the exact sizes (they probably varied anyway), but they were also seen on foreign (Free French, Polish, etc) subs operating with the British. I have photos showing them on S boats in 1939 all the way through to A class boats in 1945, so they used during the whole war. The don't appear to have been used pre-war, and were fairly quickly dropped after the end of hostilities, so the prescence of a number indicates the photo was taken sometime between 1939 and 1946. The colour generally appears to have been white. The boats name, when one was allocated, was in raised letters on the conning tower, even on many war-built boats. This, however, was not always painted in, so is not always visible. cheers Cliff Franklin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: Gakken Books on IJN Ships Hi SMML, Has anyone seen any of the Gakken books on IJN warships other than the one on the Shokaku class (which I have)? I'm particularly interested in the two on the Y----- (what's the difference?) and the ones on the Kagero class destroyers, the Kongo class battlecruisers, the Takao class, and the Taiho and Shinano. I really like the one on the Shokaku class and was wondering what people think of the other ones. Thanks, Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: Painting Brass Wire Rigging? Hi SMML, For those who use fine brass wire to rig ship models, how do you go about painting the brass wire? Thanks, Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: steven lau Subject: Brass wire I am interested in this concept of using very fine brass wire for rigging. Does anyone know a US source for .004& .006 wire? On another subject, I have a chance to pick up the Heller Prinz Eugen kit. Is this a good kit or is much work required? Thanks, Steve Lau -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Rick Heinbaugh Subject: Re: Most-named British Navy ship A very quick perusal of British Warship Names, by Capt T.D. Manning & CDR C.F. Walker, 1959, yields the following: WARSPITE - QE Class BB was 6th of the name, going back to 1st one in 1596 REVENGE - "R" Class BB was 11th, going back to 1577 EXETER - The '50s frigate was 6th, going back to 1680 KENT & LONDON DDGs were 11th GREYHOUND - "G" class DD was 22nd, going back to 1545 FOX - Naval Base at Lerwick in 1939 was 31st, cruiser sold in 1920 was 30th FORTUNE - "F" Class DD was 22nd, going back to 1512 ACTIVE - "A" class DD was 23rd, going back to 1758 HIND - Sloop 0f 1943 was 20th, going back to 1545 Rick, obviously with too much time on my hands -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: SCALSHPYRD@aol.com Subject: Re: Ticonderoga Class CG FRAMs? >> As an active participant in the CG47 and DDG51 Classes with the Combat System Engineering Agent, may I respectfully suggest this discussion be dropped from the list, on advice of counsel. Let's switch topics, these waters could get too deep. If your local PIO can't supply your details, there is a reason. << As far as this thread goes...what is your problem with it? The information as to what ships will get what overhauls or modernization's are public information, all you have to do is look at such publications as Maritime Reporter, Proceedings, Surface Warfare, and several others that I can't think of at the moment, I worked for the Navy as a Naval Architect for 8 years, mainly in the Battleship program, I learned a lot about what was going on around me from these Publications. I found that PIO's did not know a lot nor care much about what their job was. I think the truth here as far as what your counsel may have advised you, would have been not to join in the conversation here with the information from your work, but for you to tell others here to stop discussing these things, is censorship. A Great deal of things have been happening in our navy leadership that I'm sure they would not want the public to be aware of, like the 7 Spruance class destroyers being put up for sale for scrapping, 10 LA class submarines, all of these ships are less then 20 years old. All of our nuclear powered cruisers are being scrapped, the last 6 were just teenagers. I think that taxpayers would be somewhat irritated if this information was put before them on 20/20. The first 5 Ticonderoga class cruisers were slated to be retired because they did not have the verticle launch system, these ships are now slated to be modernized by Litton Industries, this decision came as the result of a lawsuit filed against the Navy by Litton because the the Navies handling of the LPD-17 contract and certain impropriatries with that contract. The Navy settled with Litton by agreeing to have Litton perform these Modernizations. Who knows now if this work will be actually performed, the health of the US walfare system is much more important that the abilities of our military to protect that very system. Lee Upshaw -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: Stuart Robottom Subject: English Navy ship names For anyone with access, Jane's Fighting Ships used to list names of those ships in commission in alphabetical order, and also show the year those names were first used and how many ships have carried the name. From the 1939 edition's list I obtained: Most used name for RN: Falcon -- 28 times as of 1939, in use since 1212. I don't know if it has been used since then. Of those mentioned by various SMMLie people: Revenge: 11 times, Exeter 6 and Warspite 7, which includes the SSBN, T42 and SSN respectively. These have all been in use since the 1500s and 1600s. Regards, Stuart mailto:robottom@deakin.edu.au http://www.deakin.edu.au/~robottom/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: HST Subject: Re: Ship name prefixes - Italian Navy Hi Falk and Shane! In Italian publications the Italians themselves refer to their navy as to the R.M., i.e. Regia Marina, as opposed to the R.A., the Regia Aeronautica, i.e. air force. But beware: R.M. is definitely not a prefix, the ships were referred to as with their names only, e.g. "the Vittorio Veneto" or "the Caio Duilio", very much like in the German Kriegsmarine. Another aspect of the dicussion might be of interest: In Italian a ship with a male name, e.g. "Caio Duilio" would be referred to in Italian as with its real gender, i.e. "he", whereas the "Friuli" would be referred to as "she", very much like the Austro-Hungarian practice before 1918, when SMS Szent Istvan was "he", while SMS Wien was "she". The German-German spelling always refers to ships as females, not regarding the "real" gender of their names. Best regards Herwig Strauss -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: "Ian MacCorquodale" Subject: HMCS Gatineau...The final run Hi SMML'ies, I have just posted pics from the last run of the HMCS Gatineau...DDE 236. I spent her last day onboard, and I hope you all will visit and enjoy the site. Has anyone had the experience of building Revell Germany's Frigate Niedersachsen? Just opened the box, and the weapons are way wrong! Any suggestions would be appreciated. Cheers, Ian http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/9089/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: "larsenal" Subject: Mercure and type MSC I saw several postings concerning the French minesweeper Mercure and her origins from the US MSC class. In fact the Mercure was a one of her kind, built on the DB-1 plans for the French Navy ( 1 ex. ) and if I remember well 4 ex. to the Federal German Navy. None were buit in the USA, and characteristics were very different: Mercure dimensions: 44.35 m x 8.27 m x 4.04 m displacement: 300 tW MSC dimensions: 43.00 m x 7.95 m x 2.55 m displacement: 365 tW As many minesweepers of the 50's- 60's general appearance was very similar from class to class, same thing with the Mercure. In my opinion only extensive surgery could bring a Heller Mercure ( that is no longer available ) into a decent representation of a US MSC minesweeper. Best regards, Jacques Druel L'arsenal -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: "Douglas Martin" Subject: Trivia I must admit to being 'floored' by Jeff's question 10, and after having spent several hours 'on-line', decided to forgo the pleasure of 10 points or so. This coupled with my 'off tangent' ponderings on Trivia 9, means a drastic slide down the ladder........ Bring on Round 2........ For Caroline, I think 'Ark Royal' may have a high 'name count', it should be '5', maybe more research is called for again!. As for Aoshima, I'll have a hunt for some of their new Akizukis when time permits, with 6 kits being available I'm hoping for a wee bit of different histories on the instruction sheets coming with each kit, in 'English' would help. Douglas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29) From: "sctrtrash" Subject: Roll Models: Defense of... In response to Fernando Yohan Roll Models "Alert". I cannot comment on the discussion he had with the "Female" on the other end of the line or the problem he had with getting the books. However. In defense of Roll Models I will say (write). They are a family owned business that operates out of their home. Maybe, the publisher of Schiffer, or Distributor failed to meet their promised delivery dates. I am only playing Devils advocate here. Maybe the Female on the other end was having a bad day. I have been working in the service industry for most of my adult life, and have found that customers can be very rude. This is not to say that Fernando was rude, but she may have just spoken to a rude customer. At least the credit card amount was not charged to your bill. I too have had some bad experiences with Roll Models, but: I know John and Mary personally, and understand the nature of their business, and know that they would not knowingly try to "Screw" the customer, or give bad service. If there was a history of bad and indifferent service, and charges being made for product not received and no effort to remove the charges, I would endorse the "Alert", but I feel at this point, that I must offer some defense to Roll Models at this point in time. A little understanding goes a long way. Mark Krumrey New Richmond WI -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Tom & Carolyn Harrison" Subject: New 1/350 Scale Carrier set New 1/350 Scale Carrier set from Tom's Modelworks, Set 3518 U.S. Carrier "perforated" deck side catwalks with attached rails. $16.00 Check out our web site: http://www.tomsmodelworks.com for end of year holiday discounts and giveaways. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Jeff J Herne Subject: Final trivia question and standings... Round One is complete...many thanks to all those who played. Point totals for individual rounds will be reset to zero, however, at the end of however many rounds we decide to do, the combined points total winner will get something in the manner of a resin kit, we haven't figured out what as of yet.... The first round was largely trial and error, we had some email problems, but Round 2 is set to begin on Monday. We're keeping a running spreadsheet in Excel format which can be downloaded to players upon request, this should eliminate the points troubles...points totals will still be posted with each question I am pleased to announce that Dan Jones, Editor of Plastic Ship Modeler, will be my quizmaster partner-in-crime for Round 2, between the two of us we should keep you guessing. Thanks!!! Jeff "The Angry Viking" Herne ************************************************************************* ******************************************************** CYBELE is a experimental towed sweep (also called"Stirling Craft") designed to explode German pressure mines, one of two built (the other was named CYRUS). They were given these names as a security measure, and were ordered as ALGERINE class minesweepers. CYBELE was built by Dennys , Dumbarton, Scotland. 1943 CYRUS was built by Swan Hunter, 1944 Dimensions - 359'2" overall, x 60' x 30' Displacement 3,980 / 1,950 dwt. Fates: CYRUS sank after breaking her(?) tow line in the English Channel while sweeping for mines. Lost on December 5, 1944. CYBELE survived the war and was subjected to underwater detonations, tested to destruction, before the remains were finally broken upin 1946 at Troon. FYI - No plans exist, but there are 4 construction photos in the Denny collection - described as what appears to be a collection of girders of I beam and triangular section. It was fitted with an ordinary rudder and remote controlled electrical steering gear. The remote steering was needed as the vehicle was unmanned and was to be towed by a bow connection much in the manner of conventional paravane sweeps. Correct responses were from: dhjonespsm@juno.com - 10 points r2brown@bc.sympatico.ca - 10 points sanartjam@aol.com -10 points ColinTroup@compuserve.com - 10 points sarup@intnet.com - 10 points Christopher. Herron@pss.Boeing.com - 4 points Standings through 10 rounds, 1st set: dhjonespsm@juno.com - 40 pts. sanartjam@aol.com - 39 points sarup@intnet.mu.com - 39 points douglas.j.martin@email.msn.com - 24 points ColinTroup@compuserve.com - 20 pts. jjrule@idirect.com - 20 pts. raeplus@s-direktnet.de - 20 pts r2brown@bc.sympatico.ca - 18 points richa5011@aol.com - 17 points YHSAIO@aol.com - 14 pts. brianselzer@bc.sympatico.ca - 14 pts. jmalondon@home.com - 14 pts. KHgold@wman.com - 10 pts. john.sutherland@amcom.co.nz - 10pts. Christopher.Herron@PSS.Boeing.com - 9 pt. tbbullock@thegrid.net - 9pts. mike.leonard@erols.com - 9 pt. technoinfidel@webtv.net - 8 pts. minadmiral@aol.com - 7 pts. Geoff-smith@cwcom.net - 7 pts. chuck1155@earthlink.net - 4 pts. cjmhughes@btinternet.com - 4pts. jdcorley@earthlink.net - 4pts. johnsnyder@macnexus.org - 4pts. volker.haeuser@main-rheiner.de - 4pts. jefcat@msn.com - 4pts. KeithButterly@bc.sympatico.ca - 4 points jecham3981@aol.com - 4pts. romoh@singular.gr - 4pts. jpb@skynet.be - 3pts. spallen@wavecomputers.net - 2pts. jowfx@cs.com - 2pts. THenrys@aol.com - 2pts. jaci@Lehigh.edu - 1 pt. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume