Subject SMML23/10/99VOL707 Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 23:25:31 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Roll Models: Defense off... 2: Re: Tico BS, etc/Response 3: Secrets 4: On Green Paints and Ticonderogas 5: Re: Sub Pennants 6: Re: Ticonderoga secrets 7: National Security on SMML 8: Richelieu 9: Top Secret 10: Trivia 11: Re: Ticonderoga & Security 12: Heller Prinz Eugen 13: Re: Roll Models 14: Fighting Steel 15: Navy Websites 16: Re: Gakken Books 17: New Book on Warship Building 18: DD357 Selfridge Smokestacks 19: Re: Roll Models defence -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Model Expo Fall Sale 2: International Maritime Modeling October 1999 Update is Up 3: SeaPhoto away for a few weeks -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Fernando, Yohan" Subject: Re: Roll Models: Defense off... >> In response to Fernando Yohan Roll Models "Alert". I cannot comment on the discussion he had with the "Female" on << I think you might have connected the Roll Models post with me accidentally. I didn't post the message, nor have heard of Roll Models before this. Just wanted to clear things up. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Katz, Gene S" Subject: Re: Tico BS, etc/Response Shane, Mea Culpea, my apologies to you for bringing out the flames in the SMML members. No need whatsoever for the vitriol, especially from Esquires and ex-three stripers. Too bad one can't sound cautious observation without drawing heavy incoming. I will refrain from any discussions re: CG47 or DDG51 class refits/overhauls, and from attacking anyone who puts forward a well intended suggestion. Besides after working in and on these ships for the past 12 years, I very much look forward to forgetting about work, leaving the office, and not talking shop as it were. Much prefer more neutral topics with fewer chances of generating H&I fire. Let's sail on. Sorry, Mate. Gene Katz Hi Gene, et al, No worries mate, stuff happens. Now, hows about we bring this thread to a close, before we get too serious about it. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Doremus, Mark" Subject: Secrets Folks, Like many of you I've held a secret clearance. The rules were simple. Don't comment. If someone, who doesn't have a need to know, asks a question, the answer is "I don't know". I only ran into this once. I was working on a project for the RAAF, a guy near by was working on a project for a different air force, I asked a couple (3 actually) of questions, on the third "I don't know", I figured it out. We saw the results of his work about 5 years later on TV. Mark Doremus Airplane guy in Eden Prairie, MN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Steven P. Allen" Subject: On Green Paints and Ticonderogas >> The four colors in question are #1 Green, #2 Green, #3 Green, and #4 Brown, as found in our USN Set 2 paint chips. << I appreciate that, John, but what I was hoping for were FS #s or Model Master equivalents. >> The first 5 Ticonderoga class cruisers were slated to be retired because they did not have the verticle launch system, these ships are now slated to be modernized by Litton Industries, this decision came as the result of a lawsuit filed against the Navy by Litton because the the Navies handling of the LPD-17 contract and certain impropriatries with that contract. The Navy settled with Litton by agreeing to have Litton perform these Modernizations. << Lee, While it's true that the first 5 need to be updated w/ VLS, new computers, and new radar hardware, it's also true that the overloaded hulls are susceptible to twisting and hogging. I see if I can't dredge up relevant sources of info on the web. I'm glad to hear, though, that the Navy is planning to fix rather than scrap them. I agree 100% on the priorities issue: it's a shame that they cheaped out using Spruance hulls. Those CSGNs would have been nice to have and great modeling subjects. Has anybody out there scratched one? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "graham" Subject: Re: Sub Pennants Hi my 2ps worth, Royal Navy subs did have pennant numbers, but most subs were given a name later, in one of the Russian convoys there were two subs with it and at least one of them had a pennant number. It usually started with the P prefix followed by numbers. I am a bit rushed at the moment but will have a look in the very leaning and unsteady book cases( must get them fixed to the wall) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Ticonderoga secrets I wouldn't concern anyone with the discussion of what MAY be happening to the Cowpens. I guarantee you the Soviets have much better photos and have seen more than any of us have. The easy way to get information about any military project is to buy it from the Chinese. Hell, Clinton sold them everything else for campaign money. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Loren Perry Subject: National Security on SMML This cloak-and-dagger nonsense on national security being threatened by postings on SMML reminds me of an amusing incident that occurred in the early 1980s when I was a Navy recruiter in Jacksonville, Florida. At the time, I was assigned to the PAO's office (Public Affairs) and took advantage of an then-official Navy policy to sponsor a model building contest for local youths. It was named the Navy Jax Scale Model Contest and was intended to attract intelligent and skilled young people to the Navy as a possible career. When I started this contest, I was essentially working alone, designing the rules, lining up a venue, finding trophy sponsors, and making the rounds of all the local radio and TV stations to sweet-talk them into airing promos for the show. I'd never heard of IPMS at this time. But as the publicity began to take hold, the Jacksonville IPMS group (currently the sponsors of the show since the Navy has dropped all links to such shows nationwide) contacted me and volunteered to take on some of the load which freed me to pursue my pet project: to give a special award for a builder of the nuclear attack sub USS Jacksonville (Los Angeles class SSN 699.) Because no kit existed at that time, scratchbuilding would be a must. So I personally drew up some simple modelbuilder's plans using Navy recruiting Super 8mm job description films, assorted public info and a ship's commissioning pamphlet as my guides. The plan was drawn in a small scale, mimeographed (remember those?) by the hundreds, and distributed to all local hobby shops as giveaways to potential contest competitors. Here's where my problem began: my drawing included the seven bladed screw used by the L.A. class. At that time, the configuration of the screw was still considered secret, and that included the number of blades. Within two weeks of distributing the drawings to hobby shops, my C.O. summoned me to his office where I was introduced to two officers with N.I.S. (an investigation arm of the Navy) who wanted to know where I acquired my information on the screw. They were clearly not in a friendly mood. I told them that one of the Navy job description films then in use (for the Sonar Operator rating) showed several underwater scenes of an L.A. class submarine underway (a special effects shot no doubt using miniatures.) This is the film shown to every potential applicant for the job when he appeared at a local recruiting office. When I freeze-framed the shot, the number of blades on the screw was easily discernible. I told them this was my source for the propeller info. The two officers looked appropriately mortified, thanked me for my cooperation, and departed with no further comment. My C.O. was amused by this to no end and let me proceed with the contest. So here's another case of someone getting their nose out of joint over something essentially trivial - another case of the left and right hands not communicating. We're worried about something like a CG-47 class ship's external appearance when our own CinC has handed to the Chinese all our nuclear secrets on a silver platter? Oh, Please. Postscript: The Navy Jax show was held at a local shopping mall in Orange Park, FL and it turned out to be a great success with over 200 entries on its first time out (the winner of the Los Angeles model special award was Virginia's David Merriman) and is now known as the IPMS Jacksonville Scale Model Contest, one of the largest in the Southeastern US. I was especially proud of my biggest coup for that show - arranging to have former Navy Ensign George Gay (sole Torpedo 8 squadron survivor) as our guest of honor. Mr. Gay presented each award to the winner of every category and posed for photos with the winners. He lived in the Miami at the time and was a great man in all respects. Good sense of humor, too! I acted as his chauffer while he was in town (he came alone) and he and I had a lot of fun blasting empty beer bottles with an air operated machine gun in the woods behind his motel in Jacksonville while he was there for the show. You had to be there to believe it! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Richelieu Hi Hans The book your refer to is by Sarnet and Le Vaillant and is the definitive history of Richelieu. It's highly illustrated with photo's from throughout the ship's life and very readable (the book is in French though). It also includes complete specifications for Richelieu and a colour section at the back which shows all camouflage and colour schemes carried throughout the ships career. It's a magnificent book and well worth the asking price. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Top Secret Hi Shane Top Secret??? The only thing top secret about the Australian armed forces is coal fired aircraft and exploding koalas All the best to you and Lorna Chris Hi Chris, Ahhh, but that's what we want you to know ;-) Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Trivia What was the first ship to be fitted with radar. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Christopher Crofoot Subject: Re: Ticonderoga & Security I seriously doubt that anything discussed in this forum could affect Nat. Security! If that dope smokin, skirt chasin, secret selling dishonorable President of ours isn't a security risk, I don't think we could be even with malicious intent! In any case all that info is easy to find....and just like they told me in Basicl...anything you know probably isn't that important anyway! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Peter Mispelkamp" Subject: Heller Prinz Eugen Steve Lau asked about the Heller Prinz Eugen: I found it to be an excellent kit, with only a few foibles. Decide on the period you want to build her - Bismarck or Channel Dash or late war. Once you tell me, I will be happy to point you in the right direction. Major weaknesses: Stern anchor was a howser, not a chain. AAA - While good for their time, Heller's 20mm quads are just not up to snuff, besides the decision to mold them without the mounting leg was most unfortunate as it creates a major problem for anyone who wants to update/re-arm the ship. Too bad no-one makes a good 20mm KM quad for Heller's models in resin! Heller's decision to mold the forward AAA director towers also limits your choice - as these domes were not carried during the Bismarck mission. My advice, buy it, and add the proper photo-etch accessories to complement the kit. Happy modeling Peter K. H. Mispelkamp -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Marc Flake Subject: Re: Roll Models Thought that I would just add that I just finished having a very good order experience from Roll Models. I called the order in two weeks ago, when they suggested that I check back in two weeks. I called last Monday, they said it would be on the way in a couple of days. It was on my porch Wednesday afternoon. Wasn't books, though. Wasn't ships either, unless you count a flying boat. But it was a kit I had had trouble finding elsewhere. On the other hand, I'm having an absolutely terrible time with Hobbylink Japan. And this is after three satisfactory order experiences in the past year. To make a long story short, it looks like they're going to charge me for postage twice off the same order -- and they're going to ship both packages within a week of each other after I've been waiting five weeks. Have they changed owners or what? Marc Flake Tarrant County, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Marc Flake Subject: Fighting Steel SMMLers: I know we pretty much exhausted this thread about a month ago, but I've just got it and I have to gush. It's the naval game I've been waiting for. And from the historian's view, it is very instructive. I have a lot more respect for the Scharnhorst BCs, a lot less respect for the Panzershiffes and more respect for Capt. Langsdorf's ability to escape into Montevideo with as little damage as he did. Also, it's easy to see now why observers thought they had scored direct hits on ships that were firing broadsides. You should see what the Fuso looks like -- fire from stem to stern. Strongly recommended. Marc Flake -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Timothy J. Barron" Subject: Navy Websites Given the discussion about Ticonderoga Cruisers and what information is in the public domain, I wanted to share some relevant websites: The Department of Defense website contains tons of information, press releases, and contract information for all branches of government. You can even subscribe and get new information via e-mail. The contract information includes sales of weapons to other countries, which is interesting. http://www.defenselink.mil/ The Naval Technology site provides detailed information on the technologies and the companies that make them. http://www.naval-technology.com/ \\\|/// \\ ~ ~ // ( @ @ ) ------- oOOo-(_)-oOOo--------------------------- Timothy J. Barron mailto:tjbarro@worldnet.att.net http://www.geocities.com/tjbarro -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Dboykap@aol.com Subject: Re: Gakken Books Art: Each book and its subject model is every bit as good as the Shokakus book. Many have a handful of photos that I've never come across before. The book format allows for larger and clearer prints of the more familiar photos. The models are exquisite and vary in scale from 1/50 to 1/200, with 1/100 the predominate scale. I only wish that I could read Japanese. The ships/models that are highlighted include: # 11 The Yamato (vol.#1) - the model is a 1/100 late war Yamato, #13 The Shokaku class CVs- the model is a 1/100 mid war Zuikaku, #14 IJN Carriers - the models are both 1/200 early war of the Akagi and the Hiryu, #15 The Mutsu class BBs- the model is a 1/200 early war Nagato, # 16 is the Takao class CAs- the models are both late war, 1/100 of the Takao and the Maya, #17 IJN subs, predominantly I- 400 - the models are a 1/100 I-180 and a 1/200 I-19, # 18 The Fubuki Class DDs & the 5,500 ton CLs - the models are a 1/50 early war Ushio and a 1/200 early war Abukuma (certainly a rarity), # 19 The Kagero class DDs and the Agano class CLs - the models are both 1/200 and late war of the Yulkkaze & Yahagi. Obviously, I have them all. Coincidently, HLJ has just e-mailed that my order for # 20 Yamato #2, # 21 Kongo Class BBs, & #22 Taiho and Shinano has been shipped. I can hardly wait. If you want more details, feel free to contact me off-line. Dan Kaplan, NYC (where the city is flush with Yankees fever and post Met depression) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Timothy J. Barron" Subject: New Book on Warship Building While at the bookstore, I saw (but did not buy) a new book called "The Yard." It is about the ship-building process of an Arleigh Burke Destroyer. It is more focused on the building, the workers, and how it is made. My interest is more in the capabilities, so I chose not to buy it, but thought it might interest others. I saw it at two major bookstore chains. \\\|/// \\ ~ ~ // ( @ @ ) ------- oOOo-(_)-oOOo--------------------------- Timothy J. Barron mailto:tjbarro@worldnet.att.net http://www.geocities.com/tjbarro -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Darek Lipinski Subject: DD357 Selfridge Smokestacks Hi All, I am scratchbuiding this destroyer in 1:250 scale. I have the Floating Drydock set of plans showing her as of 8/45 and plans of Porter ( 6/42 ) from the Plastic Ship Modeler drawn by Alan Raven plus a few pictures of Selfridge as she appeared in 4/44. Despite all of that I am unable to determine how exactly her smokestacks were constructed. I think I can figure out the one in the forward. If I am correct it got very little alterations during the war except to the topping. So in 1945 it still stood there on four uptakes leading up to the main smoke pipe which did not touch deck at all. Am I correct so far? But what about the rear one. According to the FD plan there is a deckhouse constructed around the base of the smokestack so most of the uptakes (about 60%) would've been hidden inside it. Problem is, that it doesn't show on the plan. It looks more like the uptakes have been totally removed or somehow altered so only the main pipe can be seen above the superstructure. The full picture is furthermore obstructed by the amidship 40mm gun platform suspended a few feet above the deckhouse. Can anyone help me to clear this mess. Were there any uptakes around the second smokestack in the second half of 1945 ? Was the amidship deckhouse covered 100% by the roof or the middle of it around the stack was left open ? I will appreciate any educated speculations by the experts on this list. Darek -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Roll Models defence I was sorry to hear about some problems with Roll Models that some members on this list have had. I however, have trouble thinking that the folks that own Roll are not honest. If you will recall awhile back a friend of mine was decimated by the tornado that hit Oklahoma City. When I put out the word I never solicited anything from Roll Models. One day I found a couple of BIG boxes on my porch from Roll Models. When they just HEARD of my friends problems they packed up a ton of kits (good kits) and sent them out. Remember, I didn't ask for any kits from Roll. This told me that the owners were honest and decent people to help someone they didn't even know. That doesn't sound like people I have heard described on this list. Give them the benefit of the doubt and I'll bet they will make all things right. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://warship.simplenet.com/Flagship.htm "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Conan35@aol.com Subject: Model Expo Fall Sale Model Expo Fall Sale - http://www.modelexpoinc.com We have posted our latest specials to our web site, including 22 World War II Royal Navy paints - $1.69 per 1 oz. bottle. Other specials include: LB70813 - PT-109 by Lindberg, limited edition, motorized. List $89.95, SALE $59.99 R/C Boats from Deans Marine DM134 - USS Robert E. Peary, SALE $499.99 DM118 - HMS Skirmisher, c. 1904, SALE $449.99 DM124 - USS Kidd, SALE $469.99 Tamiya 1:350 Warships - SALE $39.99, including TM78010 - King George V TM78011 - Prince of Wales TM78001 - Bismark TM78003 - Tirpitz TM78004 - Musashi TM78002 - Yamato TM78005 - New Jersey TM78008 - Missouri TM35150 - US Navy PBR 31 "Pibber" - 1:35 Scale, SALE $20.99 OTHER PLASTIC SHIPS INCLUDING MC11315 - RMS Titanic Deluxe Kit from Minicraft, SALE $59.99 RM5228 - USS Lionfish Sub by Revell, SALE $10.99 RM5224 - USS Yorktown by Revell, SALE $10.99 Many other plastic ships on sale at http://www.modelexopinc.com Best Regards, Rob Finley, Website Mgr. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Felix Bustelo Subject: International Maritime Modeling October 1999 Update is Up Hello SMMLers http://members.tripod.com/~Febus65/imm.htm The October 1999 IMM update to the site includes: Photos of Carl Erickson's 1/600 scale USS Constitution, Ted Roy's 1/300 scale USS Wasp, Keith Butterley's 1/600 scale HMS Repulse, Bob Santos 1/350 scale SS Brooklyn harbor tug and my (yes, I actually finished a model!) 1/600 scale HMS Iron Duke in the Photo Gallery. Reviews of Revell's 1/540 USS Franklin D. Roosevelt and L'Arsenal's 1/400 scale early- war Flower Class Corvette and 1/400 late-war Flower Class Corvette in Quick Kit Reviews. Reviews of Gold Medal Models 1/540 Midway/Essex/Forrestal Fittings set, Tom's Modelworks 1/500 WW2 US Navy Radars, 1/192 WW2 US Navy Battleship Radars and 1/192 WW2 US Navy Destoryer Radars sets and L'Arsenal's 1/400 French Roundels decal set in Photoetch Reviews. Addition of a page listing current and future titles from WR Press, publishers of the Warship Perspective Series. A review of the HMCS Sackville in Book Reviews. Update of the Kit List page to include ship kits from Artitec, Langston Miniatures and additions to Tom's Modelworks list of submarine and merchant ships and planned releases from Iron Shipwright. Related updates to the Links page. Please stop by for a look. Felix Bustelo Webmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: SeaPhoto away for a few weeks Hello Everyone, I just wanted to let you know that I will be away from home for a few weeks. I am covering for my brother, as his wife is very sick. I have shipped all pending orders, but if you send an order or trade in the next week or two you may experience a slight delay. I am bringing my laptop with me, so you can reach me as usual, and of course, I will be bringing my SMML with me too! Cordially, Kurt SeaPhoto Maritime Photography -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume