Subject SMML31/10/99VOL715 Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 00:52:25 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: WW1 warship 2: Japanese Ship Modelling Web Site 3: Re: WW1 Warship afloat 4: Re: Japanese WW1 Ship in Tokyo Harbour? 5: WWI battleships still afloat 6: Re: Greek cruiser Averoff 7: Re: German predreadnought color 8: Re: Toilet chains n cables 9: Re: USS Vestal 10: RN Carrier Deck Letters 11: Re: WW 1 ship at Poros. 12: Re: Damaged models 13: Re: Guppy propellers 14: Re: Damaged models, a judges reply 15: Re: WW1 warship 16: Re: it's ONLY baseball? 17: Re: Get well Brian 18: Re: American toilet with a chain 19: Re: More on damaged models 20: Tirpitz camouflage and references 21: Spanish Civil War Naval Ops 22: About Mikasa 23: BASEBALL.. IS THAT A REAL GAME? 24: RUSSIAN ICEBREAKER COLORS 25: Information Please? 26: Yamato -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Shane Subject: Re: WW1 warship I wrote the following: >> That may have been the ex-SMS Goeben which was transferred to Turkey, helping to bring her in WW1 on the side of the Central Powers. IIRc, she was later scrapped. << Hi gang, Don't ask me how I confused Turkey with Greece, I don't know. Shane - where daylight saving has begun again - yeah!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Tom Eisenhour Subject: Japanese Ship Modelling Web Site Greetings, all: Those interested in IJN subjects should check out this web site: http://www.j-aircraft.com/ Dave Pluth has recently started a message board for Japanese ships. Current threads include hull color of the Junyo, Zuiho, I-400, and reissues of waterline kits. Regards, Tom Eisenhour Austin, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Suvoroff@aol.com Subject: Re: WW1 Warship afloat >> I can distictly remember a WW1 (ish) warship at anchor off the Greek Island of Poros, where I spent an alcoholic week in 1979. It was being used by the Greek Navy as part of their Officer Cadet Training School which, if memory serves me right, was based there too. I can't believe that they'd have scrapped or disposed of it since then. << This was the Averof, an Italian-made armored Cruiser of 1911. She served in both World Wars. Yours, James D. Gray -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Suvoroff@aol.com Subject: Re: Japanese WW1 Ship in Tokyo Harbour? >> Mikasa is the last survivor of the Russo-Japanese War... << No, the Russian cruiser Aurora (a veteran, as the Mikasa, of Tsu-Shima) is still afloat in Leningrad/St. Petersburg. Yours, James D. Gray -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: WWI battleships still afloat Re: the Mikasa in Japan, she was Admiral Togo's flagship in the Russo-Japanese War in 1905, and in the 1950's her hulk (her upperworks had been scrapped) was restored (Adm. Nimitz had something to do with it but I can't recall exactly what) and landlocked (she sits in dirt now, not water) on permanent display. NAVIS had a feature on her a while back. Re: Athens, there is a supposedly WWI Greek battleship on display south of Athens in Piraeus (or thereabouts). I've seen it twice from a cab and it looks like a WWI British battleship or cruiser - light tripod mast forward - overall Haze Gray (ish) with black upperworks. It looks awfully small for a battleship, and given that the Greeks bought two obsolete pre-WWI US battleships (ex Mississippi and something else) (that's why the new Mississippi class had three units, by the way. Or something like that) some time later, I seriously doubt it was actually a battleship in WWI or any other time. Isn't there a Russian battleship of that vintage in St. Petersburg? And don't forget the USS Texas - she was several classes behind being current by the time the US entered WWI - had been superseded by the Nevada, Pennsylvania and Mississippi classes by 1918 when the Sixth Battle Squadron (with my presumably seasick grandfather as a radio operator on the even older BB Arkansas) joined the British fleet for joint operations against the German High Seas Fleet. Just my two cents. I know I have more on the Mikasa and Greek ship if anyone really needs it. Michael Smith Marshall, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Jeffrey Roberts" Subject: Re: Greek cruiser Averoff >> Poros Naval Base: Georg Averoff (1910), Armoured cruiser/pocket battleship built in England in 1910. ~10,000 tons, 4x10" 8x6" main armament. Check before visiting; About 1980 it was still an active training base. Only open Wednesday and Saturday afternoons. It is possible the base might have been closed or the ship moved since then. Day trip from Athens. Since then I can find no more about it. Good luck << The armored cruiser Giorgios Averoff was built in Italy at the Fra.Orlando shipyard in Leghorn between 1905-11 and was a sister ship to the Italian armored cruiser Pisa. The main and secondary batteries were of four 9.2 inch 45 cal and eight 7.5 inch 45 cal Elswick guns. She was purchased by the Greek Navy in part through a bequest of the late Giorgios Averoff, a shipping magnate, and the ship was consquently named in his honor. She first saw action in the Balkan Wars with Turkey prior to WWI. Refitted in France in the early 1920s, the Averoff survived the Axis invasion of Greece during WWII and later became a museum ship at Poros, where she still remains so far as I know. (sources: Jane's Fighting Ships, 1919 ed.; Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships 1922-46) Best wishes, Jeffrey Roberts North Hollywood, California -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: German predreadnought color >> Does anyone have a favorite Humbrol color to suggest for the overall gray used on German warships around the turn of the century? It appears very light in some photographs. Possibly one of the medium grays mixed with white? << No firm opinion from me, but I'd suggest perhaps checking with Steve Wiper at Classic Warships. He's done a bit of research on the subject. But I will throw one factor into the equation: remember that those photos were shot on blue-sensitive plates or orthochromatic film, which renders any color with a sizeable proportion of blue as lighter than we're used to seeing in a photo made with "modern" panchromatic films. So, it could be that the German color was a blue-gray. Falk? Dave K.? Any suggestions? John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Toilet chains n cables >> out of interest, I have never come across an American toilet with a chain! << Ah, clearly a case of not enough exploration or appreciation by the uninitiated. Many, many American toilets have chains. Mine does. You just have to know where to look, in some cases. (This is shipmodeling???) ;^) JWS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: USS Vestal Mike: Know anyone who can get to VESTAL's War Diary or Deck Log for you? The requisite information may lie there. However, ARIZONA was due to depart on 12/13/41 for a yard period and overhaul. According to _Battleship ARIZONA_, VESTAL's forces were building a radar shack on the aft end of the signal bridge, so that it would be ready for the installation of equipment during the yard period. I suppose she could have been running electrical and Hydraulic lines for an upcoming installation of 1.1s as well, but without some research that's purely speculation. The radar shack, however, is a known item. John Snyder Snyder & SHort Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Nowfel Leulliot Subject: RN Carrier Deck Letters Many moons ago, I asked if someone had a list of deck letters worn by Royal Navy carriers in late WW2... Yesterday, I found an article on the FAA by John Driscoll in the French aviation history magazine AERO JOURNAL and here are the deck letters he lists : Deck Letters (April 1945) : B : Battler F : Ranee G : Smiler I : Trouncer J : Trumpeter L : Glory N : Puncher O : Pretoria Castle P : Premier Q : Queen R : Reaper S : Searcher T : Patroller U : Pursuer V : Ravager X : Vindex Y : Nairana Z : Campania British Pacific Fleet (April-August 1945, numerous changes for security reasons) : A/M/N : Vengeance B/N/T/V/Y : Venerable C/D : Colossus L/R/Y : Glory N : Implacable P/X : Victorious Q : Illustrious S : Indefatigable V : Vindex X : Formidable I hope this is of interest to someone... mailto:nowfel@worldnet.fr Paris, France -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "J. London" Subject: Re: WW 1 ship at Poros. As a member has already corectly pointed out there was a Greek armored cruiser, the AVEROFF, at the Poros naval training establishment having been transferred there after being paid off in 1951. In 1984 she was towed to Piraeus (the port for Athens) for the 1984 Navy Week after being given a quick lick of paint. After getting some 60,00 visitors the Greek Admiralty were convinced that she had to be saved and in 1985 was towed to a shipyard for the start of her reconstruction. Later that year she was towed to her permanent berth in Phaleron Bay where restoration work continued. She is only a few minutes drive from either Athens or Athens airport. She was built in Italy as a sister of the Italian PISA Class and commissioned May 16th 1911 just in time to take part in the Coronation Naval Review at Spithead for King George V's coronation. She was extremely active, and achieved her greatest fame, in the Balkan Wars 0f 1912-13 where her principal antagonist was Turkey. Here she completely outclassed Turkish ships sent agains her. Relatively inactive in WW 1 due to Greek semi-neutrality, she was again at war with Turkey in 1921-22 in the Asia Minor Campaign. In WW 2 she served alongside the British Navy after escaping to Alexandria. Being by then an old ship her role was primarilly as escort in the Red Sea and Indian Ocean. She returned to Greece on Oct 16th 1944. Mike London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Kelvin Mok" Subject: Re: Damaged models >> I have witnessed an airplane in aircraft diorama ripped from its base when the judge, his glasses dangling from a lanyard, leaned over to look at something across the table, inadvertantly hooked his glasses under a wing, then stood up. << If I may chime in my 2 cents worth. Placing models on the regular 30 inch high table tops introduces a number of hidden problems. I can think of many advantages by raising the display height to 36 or 40 inches (as per lab or shop workbench) by placing the model on cardboard packing cartons or something similar. Let the competition committee come up with a standard size box (or multiples thereof) so that the exhibit area will look uniform and neat. 1. Its closer to eye level and presents a more natural viewing angle suitable for adults without making it too high for kids and the womenfolk. 2. It wouldn't require so much bending over. At my age bending over those rows of displays is pretty hard on the back. Squatting down to get a side view (or belly details of an aircraft) of the model doesn't help either. 3. Because we won't have to bend over so much loose personal items like those dangling glasses, camera equipment, coat zippers, ladies' handbag and other model wreaking accouterments won't get as many chances to demolish the model. 4. Therefore photographers will be less inclined to surreptitiously handle the model or accidently damage them when trying to get a better photo angle. 5. The model can be rotated during judging or public viewing by turning the box which reduces the temptation and the risks of handling the model directly. And please don't forget to tie down or (double sided) sticky tape the model to the box. 6. The side of the box is a great place for the labels, documentation and photographs to describe the model. Maybe if the club can find advertisers/sponsors, then to place the their blurb on the box too. Kelvin Mok (klmok@home.com) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Guppy propellers >> n the November issue of SEA CLASSICS, there's an interesting feature on USS TUNNY (SSG-282) after she had been converted to carry the Regulus. Well, there's a shot of her in dry-dock from astern showing clearly her (according to the caption) "five-bladed high speed propellers." My question is this...were the Fleet subs fitted with 5-bladed screws during their GUPPY upgrades? I assume...since I've been "away" thanks to the President for the last few months..that the outcome of that earlier thread was that the Fleet subs were in fact fitted with 4-bladed screws during the war, correct? Finally (getting a lot off my mind here), were the propeller guards removed off all the GATO/BALAOs during the war? More details here please.... << Fleet submarines during WWII had 4 bladed propellers. The Gato and Balao class had reduction gears between the electric motors and the propeller shafts; Tench class had direct electric motor drive (engineered by an obscure Captain in the Engineering Branch, one Hyman G. Rickover). I believe that part of the Guppy upgrade (in addition to the cheaper Fleet Snorkel program) was the fitting of the five bladed screws to submariens in the '50's. Part of the need is due to increased speed from the additonal blade area, and the fact that an odd number of blades make the submarine more difficult to detect, as it reduces propeller resonance. Most US Subs (including early nuclear powered boats) had 5 bladed "speed props". Only after a low frequency sonar problem ("Blade Rate") was discovered, did the US Navy switch to the 7 bladed scimitar shaped screw. Subs that did not have the direct drive motors were so fitted at Guppy conversion. Incidentally, Tunny, classified as an SSG, was not a Guppy boat. She received a streamlined sail and snorkel, direct drive electric motors, a hanger and launch rail, and missile guidance radar and equipment. Full Guppy outfitting included newer batteries of greater capacity, a Guppy bow, and a somewhat different sail structure than Tunny. All the snorkels were US Navy adaptations of German snorkels. These had a much greater diameter (due to the US Navy use of 2-cycle vs. German 4-cycle diesels) and a different float head valve. US Fleet boats on patrol did not have their in-port propeller guards on their sterns. These attached to the back of the hull, and acted as stand-offs tkeep other submarines tied alongside (at the tender) from damaging the propellers. Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Kenneth H. Goldman" Subject: Re: Damaged models, a judges reply Thanks, Rusty, for taking the time to reply, but - especially in light of Shane's aside - that does not explain the reason for such a rule. I would think that the idea is to encourage modelers to show their work at IPMS competitions. One way to do that is to allow them to protect their efforts. To paraphrase an individual who responded directly to me regarding my previous post, one uses perspex, glass, or plexiglas precisely because it is transparent and lets one adequately see the model within. Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER http://www.wman.com/~khgold/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Kenneth H. Goldman" Subject: Re: WW1 warship Four years ago, while in a taxi going from Athens to Piraeus where I boarded the four-masted barque Sea Cloud for a cruise around the Greek islands thence to Turkey, I almost got a whiplash jerking my head around when I caught a glimpse of what looked like a Dreadnought-era warship. The cabby had no idea what the ship was, or even that it was there. Would this have been Georg Averoff? If so, she was still afloat in 1995. Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER http://www.wman.com/~khgold/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Arjun Sarup" Subject: Re: it's ONLY baseball? Hey, hey, hey Denis... that's NOT cricket! Baseball (or softball, anyway) is fun to play, but cricket is in a different league altogether. A Test Match is like watching the grass grow for 5 days, but for pure excitement, there's nothing like one-day cricket. It gets even better when India play (and occasionally manage to win) against Pakistan. Picture this - all over Indian cities and towns, work takes a back seat as everybody sits in front of a TV or people walk around carrying radios, and I'd imagine it to be the same in Pakistan too. That happens every time these two cricket teams play. How many American cities come to a standstill every time 2 baseball teams play? Just for that, we're upgrading your Chechnya trip with stopovers at Kosovo and East Timor! BTW, who is this Billy Buckner??? Ever heard of Bradman, Lillee, Sobers, Gavaskar, Tendulkar... Best wishes, Arjun Sarup Mauritius -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Get well Brian Man, that's tough having heart problems before fifty! My sincere wishes go out to Brian for a compete and speedy recovery. When I started building my own masters, Brian offered any assistance he could to help me out (including secrets of the trade). Pretty nice considering I could use his techniques in competition against him. In my opinion, he's truly one the nice guys in this hobby. Quite refreshing, considering there are so many rats out there. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: American toilet with a chain >> I have never come across an American toilet with a chain! << This is getting way off topic so I'll best brief. The first toilets had the water closet about six feet above the bowl so a chain was dangled from the handle to be pulled when needed to flush. The elevated water closet added pressure during the flush. We had to learn this "crap" at architect school. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: More on damaged models >> There are some options here AFAICS, either: 1) Change the rules & allow the models to be judged without opening the case. << I don't support that. I understand why the model are covered but the judges must have the same access to the covered models as the uncovered ones. It's the fair thing to do. >> 2) Have the modeller ONLY remove the case, before & after it's been judged. << Impractical. I wanted to discuss an important issue with a modeler about the category his model was entered in at Orlando. I posted a message on the bulletin board and had several announcements made over the PA but he never showed up. The point is we can't hold up the show until we find every modeler to remove their covers. They understand the covers must be removed before judging. Everyone complied except for the fellow who had the covers glued on. In a perfect world it would work, but when there are folks scattered all over town on tours, in the vendors room or in their hotel rooms. >> 3) Don't enter any models in comps that have the above options. << Sorry, can't do that. The rules specifically state that models can be displayed and not judged. Just include a note below the model. Lots of folks don't like competition, but enjoy displaying and talking about their models. I wouldn't think of denying anyone that privilege. >> 4) Make sure you know the ground rules before entering ANY comp. If you don't like the rules, don't enter. << I'll go along with that! Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://warship.simplenet.com/Flagship.htm "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" Hi Rusty, Before I start playing devil's advocate here, point 3 should have read: Don't enter any models in comps that "DON'T" have the above options. This was meant to tie into point 4, with the onus on the modeller's choice in entering. My apologies. Now, I'll also be the first to admit that APMA has a more relaxed view of judging models & that it's not the be all & end all of the meeting. We are tending to prefer more displays, than actual assesments(comps), with the exception of the AGM competition. So that's also a factor, when reading the below comments. Without getting into the way various comps are judged around the world ie: the popular conception of the "Penlight Brigade", if you can see the model & all it's detail through a case, you should be able to judge it. If the option was there for glass cases, you might just see more entries in glass cases. My view is that it is now unfair to those would want to compete with their models in glass cases, it cuts both ways. Maybe a re-evaluation of how models are judged around the world is needed, remembering it's supposed to be fun ;-). As for the second point, I'd be ruthless here & if the modeller couldn't be found in a certain period of time, you'd eliminate them, pure & simple. Esp, if as you say, they know the rules. Plus from what I've seen & read about catogories, that's one kettle of fish, I don't want to get into to. Anyway, that's my 2c worth. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "Jens H. Brandal" Subject: Tirpitz camouflage and references The colour profiles in the book Kriegsmarine - a pictorial history are not entirely correct. The few photos I have of Tirpitz showing her during operation Rosselsprung shows four colours in the camo scheme. The bow and sterns were pale grey, and the rest were medium and dark grey. Look closely of the three quarter front view, and there are bits that are a slightly lighter dark grey in between. A book that is recommended reading is the "Vom Original zum Modell: Schlachtschiff Tirpitz" by Gerhard Koop and Klaus-Peter Schmolke. The first two thirds of the book has several pictures of the Tirpitz from the beginning to the end, and the latter part is dedicated to closeups of a 1:100 scale model in the Coastal museum in Wilhelmshaven. At the end are eight pages of plans showing deck levels, sections and overall views. A double fold out shows various camouflage schemes carried by the Tirpitz, but unfortunately, these are in black and white only, leaving the modeller to work out the colours. Another book which is useful, but not quite as good as the previous one is "Schlachtschiff Tirpitz" by Siegfried Breyer. This contains photos of the Tirpitz only, but the photo on the inside of the cover shows a camouflage pattern I have never seen in any other book. The colour(!) photo shows a base of pale grey front and rear with dark grey hull. Over this is applied irregular vertical stripes of what appears to be brown and black. This photo was taken in the Trondheims Fjord as an ex-colleague of mine recognised the area, being close to his home. In many cases, the photos from each period shows the ship from one side only, so you will have to guess the pattern on the other side. The photos showing the deck camouflage only shows a small section or are very faint, leaving the modeller to do a fair bit of guesswork both at the pattern and colours used. Jens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Brian Selzler Subject: Spanish Civil War Naval Ops Hello, Can anyone recommend some detailed reference material on the naval operations of all sides during the civil war of the mid thirties. I'm curious as to how the Spanish navy divided itself between Republicans and Nationalists and what clashes did they have. I know that Italian submarines were aiding the Nationalists by sinking some of the merchant shipping attempting to run the blockade into Republican ports and that this was the reason for the British and French neutrality patrols to try to protect their own shipping interests. Did they actually attack any subs and what were the results? This doesn't appear to be a widely written about period of time. regards, Brian -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Mike C" Subject: About Mikasa This is from memory, so I'm hoping for some confirmation. Didn't Adm. Nimitz have armed Marines posted to guard Mikasa from looters and souvenir hunters at the outset of the occupation? I had heard that he had know and respected Adm. Toga. Do I need my synapses rewired? Mike Czibovic -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Simon Wolff" Subject: BASEBALL.. IS THAT A REAL GAME? >> Shane what on earth are you running for cover for???? you big tough Aussie? Simon, << >> It's the same reason why you're always so quiet around Lorna ;->>>. Shane << SHANE Truth be known Lorna is genuinely a very gentle and kind person and not the 'Harsh disciplinarian' that some would imagine. Her conversations are intelligent and worth listening to, therefore mine (and other friends) silence! Simon, SHHHHHHH, you're blowing my cover. Mistress Lorna. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: Dave Baker Subject: RUSSIAN ICEBREAKER COLORS For Eric, who wanted to know about the colors used on the Russian icebreaker ARKTIKA. Alas, that would depend on when you caught her. In GENERAl, the nuclear icebreakers employed black hulls and white superstructures, but I've also got color prints showing pale cream superstructures on a number of AGBs, and Apsara released a print of ARKITIKA's sister YAMAL about a year ago showing her with a brick red superstructure and an fighter plane-like shark's mouth at the bow waterline. If Eric will forward his address to me, I can send him a copy of the YAMAL view, as I've a spare. Decks on icebreakers were usually a medium green, although a red-lead-like orange (as on Russian naval ships) is not unusual (nor are combinations of the two.In any case, hulls are ALWAYS black, and there is no boottopping stripe. Below the waterline a deep red color is common. Ten to one the instructions with the kit provide some guidance with the colors as well, if you can find a local reader of Russian; even if not, a Russian-English dictionary should be available at a good library. Good luck with the kit. Best/Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: DONRCSHIPS@aol.com Subject: Information Please? I am a RC ship bulder Mosly US navy ships. I build in 1/8 scale,(Not Rc combat War ships) just nice RC ships with a lot of detail. I found your web and could become intrested in becoming a member, But I know there is a price of some kind?? I am in the middle of building DDG-68 USS The Sullivans I did DD 537 about 3 years ago. Then Wanted to build the new one. Most of my ships are scratch, Not kits. Nice to out a pond you hear what a neat ship and you know you took a pice of wood and buit it yourself, Been building for about 7 years. So please fill me in some of the detales if you dont mind, That could determen on what I may do, Thank you Don ( To some Known as the Portland Rustbucket, Thank you agin for such a nice web sight GOOD JOB and Well done ;-)). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: Subject: Yamato Hi, I am a model biulder from Greece and I am interested in books plans and photographs of the Battleship Yamato which I want to build. I would also be grateful If someone could help me locate a copy of the "Battleship Yamato" by Janusz Skulski. Thank you very much in advance. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume