Subject: SMML07/11/99VOL722 Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 00:03:52 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Support what new (and re-released) plastic ship kits there are. 2: USS Lexington camouflage 3: Re: USS Wisconsin deck color 4: Re: Judging and models in cases 5: Informal gathering of SMMLies 6: Japanese Kits 7: Re: Choices of 1/700 subjects 8: Re: Judging and models in cases 9: HMS SUMAR 10: Cases for models (again) 11: Re: Judging Models in Cases 12: Re: Resin v. Plastic kits 13: MINESWEEPER HULL LINES 14: British Landing Craft? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Classic Warships Publishing - New Books! 2: Classic Warships - New Kit! 3: Pacific Front Hobbies 4: NEW RAIL STANCHIONS. 5: HMS Hood Site Has Moved 6: The Navy of the Russian Empire -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Phil Gollin" Subject: Support what new (and re-released) plastic ship kits there are. I agree with most of what has been said in the Plastic versus resin ship debate, however, I would especially put my voice behind Marc Flake about the future releases of new (and re-released) plastic injection kits of ships depending upon us. I'm sure I.C.M. have great plans for a 1/350th ships range, and they have lower overheads at home, BUT WE MUST BUY THEIR KITS IF THEY ARE TO CONTINUE WITH THEIR PLANS. They must make a profit out of it. I.C.M. have had announced a 1/35th Comet tank (the best active western allied tank of World War Two) for at least four years, supposidly they won't produce it because of the lack of interest (!) [How many of you have even heard of it ?] Likewise, as related before, Airfix were sadly disappointed by the sales of their re-released 1/600th Warspite. So it is up to us. When I.C.M. produce their kits - go out and buy one (or three) and get your friends to buy some as well, or else we must just rely on the good old resin guys and gals. [By the way, I am writing this during the preparations to the Rugby World Cup - and I sincerely hope Australia WIN (won) - and talking about whether any particular sport is important, I believe New Zealand's loss against France (how embarasing) may lead to a General Election !!!!! ] PHIL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: USS Lexington camouflage At around that time (March 31, 1942) Lexington was repainting from Ms. 1 with 5 (dark gray with light gray upperworks and false bow wave) to Ms. 11 (which we now think, thanks to the paint guys, was really Ms. 21 Navy Blue). There is a photo of her in Pearl being painted while her 8" turrets are being removed and another on 3/31 in the Stern "Lexington Class Carriers" book. The "new paint" line is vertical, so it's conceivable that what he's remembering is that repainting, and maybe paint crews were painting the primer in vertical stripes one "paint platform" at a time, with the dark blue following later when the primer dried. The 3/31 photo and the dust jacket (showing a full view of a prewar repainting at anchor) document that they apparently started at the flight deck and painted down to the waterline. I don't see primer, but what do I know? But if they did reprime sections, that would match with his recollections. Hope this helps, Michael Smith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: USS Wisconsin deck color WISCONSIN in 1945 was in MS12, with the purple-blue Navy Blue 5-N and the neutral #27 Haze Gray 5-H. Her decks and all horizontal surfaces SHOULD have been Deck Blue 20-B or Deck Gray 20. There is a color photo of her in this scheme in Sumrall's _IOWA Class Battleships_; the photo appears to me to show the use of the neutral Deck Gray 20 (quite faded), and also appears to show the gun barrels painted overall Haze Gray. If you want to be sure, however, start checking all available photos--but make sure the attributed date is correct. I've seen a number of photos of US BBs where the ship is still in a camo measure but the teck decks have been holystoned free of paint, and the date is supposed to be before VJ-Day. In all cases, research has proven that the photos were in fact taken after the end of hostilities. Simply put, right up to the end of the war, kamikazes were too great a threat to present them with a nice, glaringly bright clean teak deck as an eye-catcher. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Judging and models in cases In a brief reprise of my earlier post on the subject, let me just say that I agree wholeheartedly with Loren Perry's post. I say change the rules, even if it means just changing them for the ship model classes. If the aircraft and armor folks feel an overwhelming need to pick up and fondle models as a judging necessity, let them continue to do so. As an experienced IPMS/USA National, Regional and local judge, I see NO need to do so with ships. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Informal gathering of SMMLies Last evening (5 November here on this side of the International Date Line) I took a nice 90-mile, top-down drive in the Miata to attend the kick-off meeting of a new IPMS chapter in Alameda, California, aboard USS HORNET. A show of hands at the meeting revealed 6 or 7 SMMLies in attendance, and it was great to get to meet and know the persons behind the posts. The chapter voted to call itself, not surprisingly, IPMS USS HORNET. Guest speakers were Tom Harrison, from Tom's Modelworks, and his (and my) good friend, Bert McDowell, who makes all his patterns. Bert, known to us as "The Haze Gray Admiral" is one of the finest modelers you could ever hope to meet, and one of the most unassuming. Bert spoke briefly about ESSEX-class CVs and displayed his extensively reworked Hasegawa kit that he turned into HORNET in her dazzle camo, which took a first place at the IPMS Nationals a few years back (the same year that my ENTERPRISE (CV-6) took a third--I was in good company). Tom then spent a good deal of time talking about his resin kits (he had a large 1/350 ship kit on display) and about his existing and upcoming PE parts, and answering questions from the audience. I was introduced and asked to speak about our paint chip sets, and did refreshingly brisk sales afterward. Duane Fowler, who does decals for Tom, was there with a fistful of his products, as well as a number of new books he'd just acquired. One of the chapter members had a superb 1/350 Y****O on display. It was a nice evening and a nice group of modelers. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "John Rule" Subject: Japanese Kits >> I was simply awestruck by the selection and quality of kits offered by Japanese injection kit companies. The disheartening thing though was that US, UK, USSR, French, Italian, and ships of other western nations seemed to take a back door in comparison to the number and diversity of Japanese warships they offered. The reason for this is pretty obvious. However, there still remains a number of folks in Japan that still hold a grudge against the allied nations for what happened to Japan in WWII. The current trend among Japanese model companies seems to favor modern American naval vessels rather than WWII ones. Not surprising, after all, we're allies now. << Why is that there is always someone in the USA who believes that everyone in the world has an ulterior motive for doing what they do. Perhaps the reason that the Japanese favour producing kits of Japanese ships is because they feel a sense of pride in the history of their navy, and probably rightly so. Perhaps the same reason applies to US kit manufacturers who have always favoured........guess what............US subjects for their kits. I doubt strongly that there are many sane, free thinking Japanese who hold much of a grudge regarding the outcome of WWII or for that it's aftermath. Sorry, but I couldn't let that comment go unchallenged. John Rule -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Joe Costanzo Subject: Re: Choices of 1/700 subjects >> However, there still remains a number of folks in Japan that still hold a grudge against the allied nations for what happened to Japan in WWII.... I doubt if we'll ever see a Tamiya, Fujimi, Hasegawa, or Pit-Road USS Arizona kit for good reason. << Curious, though, we have a large scale Tamiya model of the battleship on which the Japanese surrendered! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: DrT388@aol.com Subject: Re: Judging and models in cases Bravo! To Loren Perry and his comments and thinking regarding cases on models. I full heartily agree with him that the rules should be changed! I have not had but one problem at a contest regarding the case issue, but I know at a regional or National show I would always have a problem and it would not be judged. I therefore have not entered either regional or national events, because of this issue. Any ways enough said on this issue. David Turner -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: JRuotsala@aol.com Subject: HMS SUMAR RECEIVED WORD FROM ENGLAND THAT THE SHIP WAS THE HMS SUMAR, IT IS WAS 447 TON YACHT BUILT IN 1926. THE BRITISH NAVY BOUGHT IT IN 1941 FOR ANTI-SUBMARINE WORK. THE YACHT ONE 12 POUNDER ON HER FOR FIRE POWER. JIM RUOTSALA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: Cases for models (again) Reasons for being unable to judge a model in a case (from SMML 720): >> 1. glare 2. distortion 3. finger-prints << Sorry, but I really can't buy this. Glare is fairly easy to cope with by changing viewing angle or shading out the light source with a sheet of paper or whatever (if the model is in a case, the danger of dropping said shade on the model is rather diminished). The really keen could take to carrying a polarising filter, I suppose..... I accept that there is some flow in glass and plastics which could cause distortion but that tends to take place over a pretty lengthy period of time. In order for most model cases to be affected, the material would have to be distorted when the case was built, which would tend to be noticed by the builder. Even so, it is highly unlikely to affect the entire surface, or the case will resemble a shower cubicle. The reason people use transparent cases is to allow them to be viewed while being protected - a modeller who has spent many hours on a project worth protecting in this way will generally not make the case to protect their work from some grotty sub-standard piece of glass or perspex. After all, the cost of a decent sheet of glass/perspex is small beer compared to the cost of the model or the modeller's time for most of us. Fingerprints? Well, unless our modeller had been finger-painting with printers' ink just before placing the thing on the table, any fingerprints are not going to have much of an impact on transparency and even less on the quality of modelling on the entry. Once again, change viewing angle, or get closer - the human eye has only limited depth of field at short range and the case and any imperfections in it will just blur out. My experience of judging (admittedly, military vehicles - and I agree that we need to learn to use bases.....) is that it is not usually that hard to spot the good stuff among the rest. I also look for faults to differentiate between potential winners - in fact that is how I assess models generally - but a case has never presented me with a problem in spotting the good models. Even though I have never judged a ship class officially, I apply the same criteria when I view them as a punter, except that, like Loren Perry, I am encouraged to look closely at cased entries. I have seen uncased models which vary from pretty grotty to stunning (like the Tribal class at this year's IPMS Nats and that 1/32 Fairmile D) but cannot recall any of the former category being in cases. This is my last comment on the subject, given that others are clearly better-qualified to do so. Perhaps we should introduce a class for display cases (only, with no model) to encourage more modellers to use them? ;o) Robert Lockie Cambridge UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Re: Judging Models in Cases I have to agree 100% with what Loren Perry (and Harold Lincoln and others) has said. Bear in mind that judging in the U.K. does not require the removing of covers off models, and note that almost every award-winning ship model in the 1999 IPMS UK Natioanls WAS a cased model! What we CAN say in the U.K. is that if any ship modeler from any IPMS organisation in the world would like to enter their pride and joy in the World IPMS Championships at Telford next October, then your cases will be left on the models by the judges, and you will not be penalised in any way! I really think that that the bias of individual judges (pro OR agaist -cases!) should be put to one side and that maybe the US membership be consulted on this issue via the magazine. You've got several months to get votes in before the next Nats. Best! Caroline Carter White Ensign Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Re: Resin v. Plastic kits Well, I just had to add my say to this debate, as I have only just got round to reading this issue. Marc Flake said >> Hopefully, you'll get some responses from resin manufacturers like Caroline and Steve. As you'll see, they make only about 1,000 kits of each subject. But it'll take years to sell them all << Delighted to answer the various comments and queries on this subject! I WISH that sales of 1,000 kits of any subject was the case for WEM! In this business, re. a resin production from ourselves, let's say in 1/700 scale, we reckon that 50 kits is break-even as a rule... sometimes it takes more. To get 50 x 1/700 Warspite kits up and into production cost us, in hard cash, 2,800 pounds (around $4,480 and break even at 54.00 pounbds retail takes 52 kits.. remember that a good portion of these sales are to the trade, and you have a reality of around 75 kits to sell for break-even.. I THINK we just about did it!) We are HAPPY when we have covered our set-up costs, but still have those run-on costs to consider! However, it can be darned hard work, even over the longer term, ie 2 to 3 years, to make sales of 150 to 200 of Royal Navy ship kits. The set-up on a WEM kit is so much higher than anyone else's as well .. ever wondered why we are the only 1/700 Scale ship kit manufacturer in the U.K.? One thing that we do go overboard to provide, is a COMPLETE kit for your money... no further purchase of aftermarket parts is necessary. Consider that "cheap" Airfix 1/600 HMS Warspite kit,or that sligtly-cheaper B-Resina. Cost? 6.80 pounds. Add the WEM PE set.. 16.13 pounds. Now add the 2 sets of Twin 4 inch in 1/600 Scale.. 5.90 pounds. NOW a bag of Pom-Poms, 2.51 pounds, and a bag of 0.5" machine guns at 2.51, and you still have a lot of research to do, books to buy or borrow, to correct inaccuracies for a really good job, and that bleeding planking STILL scales out at 2 feet wide! Cost of basics? 33.85 pounds (plus shipping on that kit if the local hobby store aint got it!). Yes, a WEM 1/700 version will cost 20.00 more, but we (and many others) think it's worth it... on a "pence per hour" basis, ship modelling is actually very cheap when compared to other hobbies! We also put a tremendous amount of effort into the accuracy and design of our kits and photoetched brass detail sets.. for example, Dave will put a month, full time, into a set of instructions alone.. basically, near-as-darn-unpaid.. how any dollars do you guys make per hour after taxes? Last year, my income,after taxes, as worked out by the accountant, from White Ensign Models,was 1.30 Pounds (about $2.30) per hour!! That was worked out on a 110 hour week!! I used to earn a $15.00 per hour as a Deputy Sister on Night Duty! Think about it.... I really have to love what I do for you guys, and I certainly don't have time for a "proper" life! Resin, rubber, fuel, petrol, electricity, telephones, the whole cost of living.. AND taxation, is astronomical in the U.K. compared to what the U.S. is used to. All these costs are reflected in the price of the finished item, and the money that folks have left for hobbies is so much lower. Our profit levels are about ONE HALF of those of the U.S. producers, and we have, as a result, far less disposable income than resin modelling businesses in the U.S. Now, bearing in mind the above... If you speak to Accurate Armour or Flightpath (armour, figures, aircraft things..), they figure on selling maybe a coupla thousand of a new resin release. We MIGHT sell 50 ship kits in the first six months of release. That surprises most folks. In the U.K., our actual "run-on" i.e. production, costs are around 3 times those of the U.S. producer. We are in almost the lowest-interest sector of the modelling market, so, understandably, the Revells and Tamiyas are biased towards the massive majority, i.e. aircraft modelling, and new injection moulded ship subjects don't generally figure in the line of things (unless you can get your tooling/moulding done in China...). The cost of a tool for high-quality injection moulding costs around 1,000 pounds ($1,600) per individual moulded part, so multiply that up to something like an Essex Class carrier in 1/350 and the cost would be around 750 thousand pounds. THEN you need the factory, packaging, employees, distribution etc. They can't afford to waste money at obscure, unpopular stuff! I'm afraid that, no matter how much folks wish, they just aint going to see new tooling for ship kits erupting from the mainstream manufacturers, so please be grateful to the cottage manufacturers for what they do, and continue to support them with your purchases (WE certainly don't do it for the money!). Best Regards, (Sorry to have to woffle on.. not like me at all!) Caroline Carter White Ensign Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Dave Baker Subject: MINESWEEPER HULL LINES Several years ago, a modeller wrote to me requesting a source for the hull lines for the U.S. Navy's Bird-class minesweeper class from World War I (which did yeoman service in WW II as fleet tugs, aircraft tenders, and salvage craft, among other duties). It's taken me five years or so, but I finally found the drawings--and now can't remember who it was who wanted them. In any case, if anyone knows the fellow, the drawings appear on pages 222-223 of the 1967 issue of the U.S. Naval Institute's NAVAL REVIEW, in an article by Captain Richards T. Miller, USN, then head of the Ships Systems Engineering Department at the Mine Defense Laboratory at Panama City, Fla. The article also has full plan and elevation waterline and futtock lines for the hull, as well as cross sections. Also included are similar drawings for the ABILITY (MSO 519), then the Navy's newest sweeper, while the article provides an excellant review of all of the USN's sweepers back to WW I and a good table of data. Hope the right person reads this. Best/Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: AllenFW2@aol.com Subject: British Landing Craft? Hello All, We here at "Battle Cruiser Hood" recently received an e-mail asking for information on something called an LCF, or "Landing Craft Flak." Supposedly this was a British craft that was exported to other Allied countries during the war (WW2). Can anyone tell me about this? Are there any models of it? Thanks! Frank Allen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Classic Warships Publishing - New Books! At the presses as we speak! Warship Pictorial #5 - USS San Francisco CA38 56 pages, $9.95 Warship Pictorial #6 - Omaha Class Cruisers-Photo Album 56 pages, $9.95 These two should become available by the 20th of Nov. at your favorite dealer! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Classic Warships - New Kit! Classic Warships has re-released the 1/350 kit of the USS California BB44 (1941). 1) The resin parts have a few upgrades and details added. 2) The missing 3in./50cal. AA guns are now included, as well as the CXAM radar. 3) The photo-etch has been completely redrawn, and includes the 50cal. machine guns. 4) Included are decals and a 20 page instruction booklet. 5) Kit is available as full hull-$250, and waterline-$220. 6) Pacific Front Hobbies has them in stock now! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Pacific Front Hobbies Pacific Front Hobbies is open !!! Their new phone number is (541) 464-8579 or fax is (541) 957-5477 They have moved to Roseburg, OR. Their business address is- Pacific Front Hobbies P.O. Box 2098 Roseburg, OR. 97470-2098 If you are new to the hobby and do not have a catalog from them, you must be in withdrawals by now! They carry everything! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Tom & Carolyn Harrison" Subject: NEW RAIL STANCHIONS. Tom's Modelworks has just put into production two new 1/192 Scale two rail and three rail stanchions. Set 2006 the three rail set is $10.00 and the Set 2007 the tow rail set is also $10 and will be ideal for the large scale Yamato kit. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: AllenFW2@aol.com Subject: HMS Hood Site Has Moved Greetings! Just wanted to let everyone know that the official HMS Hood web site, "Battle Cruiser Hood," has just moved to http://www.hmshood.com Note: Our service provider is in the process of changing/upgrading programmes and servers, so the site might run a bit roughly for a while. So, if you are unable to get in, please hit refresh or reload and try again. If problems persist, please contact me. Thanks, and Ventis Secundis! Frank Allen Editor, "Battle Cruiser Hood" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Gauntlet Publications U.S." Subject: The Navy of the Russian Empire Esteemed members of the SMML: Yesterday in Moscow I found a book that may answer a number of your questions regarding the Russian Navy, from 1696 to 1917. A number of you have ordered from me and in order to convince you that this is not a cheap marketing ploy, I will send one copy of this book to Chuck Duggie for his review. After he receives it, he can post an appropriate review on the SMML and ONLY after that will I take any orders for the book (I am very confident that he will like it). If he likes it, he can buy it, if not, he can send it back to me (at my cost). Since so many of you have bought from me sight unseen, I want to reciprocate. The only drawback is that the book price is $45 (postpaid). Here are the particulars. The NAVY of the Russian Empire: 288 page hardcover with dust jacket published in St. Petersburg Russia in 1996 (for the 300-year anniversary of the Russian Navy). It is completely in ENGLISH. Over 300 pictures on the slick glossy pages, many in color, showing ships, sailors, equipment, maps, diagrams, etc. It does not have the line drawings that are found throughout the other book that I offer (Battleships, Ships of the Line, and Gun Ships of the Russian Navy also called Armored Ships...), but it does have a superb number of ship pictures (both in color and b/w)! I will not accept any orders for this book until after it has been properly reviewed by one of your members. A copy is already on its way to Chuck (couriered to the U.S. from Moscow on 7 Nov and will be mailed Priority from Washington D.C. on 9 Nov). For those of you who ordered Battleships, Ships of the Line, and Gun Ships of the Russian Navy and I did not get your address until Friday morning (Moscow time), I will be unable to get them into the mail for another week. The Russian Revolution day holiday is celebrated on Monday and I leave Tuesday for the Russian ICBM factory (in the Ural Mountains - I am with the U.S. arms control guys). I will return late Friday (12 Nov). Your orders will be in the mail on Monday, 15 November. I will compensate all by mailing these First Class (at my cost) and for customers not in the continental U.S., I will split the cost of postage with you. Thanks for your patience and again, my apologies. Craig -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume