Subject: SMML20/11/99VOL735 Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 00:39:24 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Judging 2: On the Peacekeepers 3: Judging 4: HMS Dido 5: Re: Tamaiya 1/350 Enterprise CVN65 6: Re: Gloss or flat? 7: Re: Paint mixes 8: Re: German Ship Names on Hulls 9: Tamiya USS Enterprise CVN-65 10: Re: Arleigh Burkes 11: Re: Japanese spelling, etc. 12: Fw: Miniature Naval Flags & Vinyl Lettering 13: Judging -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Shane Weier Subject: Re: Judging Chris langtree writes: >> 2. You cannot mark down an entry if it is inaccurate and incorrect in some details. What kind of morons devised these rules? Actually I know the answer -RIVET COUNTERS!. I'm just glad I don't have anything to do with this ridiculous scene. << Do you sense an internal contradiction in this argument? Don't you think that the "rivet counters" would be precisely the ones to insist on accuracy in every detail? Frankly, the above is an example of anti-IPMS bias entirely uninfluenced by facts. Here's a fact: It is *not* ever possible to judge a model contest with judges who know everything about everything. It's hard enough to get together enough judges who know *something* about the subject as well as understand the why and wherefore of judging. Because *no* judge knows everything about all subjects the only fair and practicable way to judge is to exclude accuracy except in the broadest sense - to exclude that dayglo Tirpitz. Otherwise a judge who knows a vast amount about subject X may mark down a model of his pet subject while blithely marking up an equally incorrect model of a subject he doesn't know. This is not perfect, and anyone running a model contest will either know that or is about to find out. However the *only* alternative I've ever seen work required participants to provide full references, thereby adding problems with security of cherished books and slow - Oh HOW slow - judging to the problems. Incidentally, I am *not* an IPMS member, but my mind isn't closed either. Regards Shane Weier (the *other* Shane) Commonly known as "Shane the Elder" on another list ;->> Shane - The Younger -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Ed Grune Subject: On the Peacekeepers I'd like to thank Don Bridge for his kind words about my involvement in the Models for Bosnia program. However, its not my program. Penny Thomas of North Texas IPMS and her husband Lee picked up on the request for help and ran with it. Credit also goes to the Austin Scale Modelers and other individuals, businesses, and IPMS chapters around the country who helped with donations of kits, supplies, and money. They deserve the credit. Ed Mansfield, TX Its 8 months 'til the IPMS/USA convention, just down the road. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Judging Hi Bruce and Rusty So let me see if I get this right - you ask a modeller to remove the case and therefore damage their own model. I am flabbergasted! Do you really think that I want to be associated with a society that actually does that? (Apart from the fact I'm English and wouldn't qualify for membership of the American society anyway). Another reason is that, like Shane, I model for fun and have no interest in entering competitions or joining societies which will actually offer me nothing at all. As this subject has been aired in a public forum I like all others who subscribe to this forum are entitled to comment on it. If you want it quiet then discuss it behind closed doors. With regard to the question of accuracy if a model is meant to represent a ship at a certain period you'ld expect a certain relationship to the prototype. Therefore you'd expect some proof that the model has adddressed this problem. If you don't know ask the modeller to prove it. If a modeller enters a competition they should at least have made the effort to put in the research. I think its pretty contemptile that both of you are defending the indefensible and if you are on the inside as you claim you should have made the effort to change them. Idiotic rules like this exist because a) they were drafted by active morons who were the only ones who thought that sitting down for hours to quibble about things was important and b) anyone with a bit of sense in the organisation has neither the inclination or the power to change things. I think I've probably offended the whole corpus of IPMS judges and committee members but so what: ridiculous rules are ridiculous rules. Chris Langtree Hi gang, To set the record straight here, membership in any IPMS is not limited to the country of residence. I know Aussies who are members of IPMS(UK) etc. Same applies to APMA(blatent plug ;-)) ). Generally you join an overseas club to get their publication. Shane - Putting together the last APMA Magazine of the year -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: HMS Dido Hi WRPRESS I think the range was A23708 - A23715 but I'm not 100% sure. I'm going to be paying a visit to the archives next week so I'll definitely confirm for you. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Tamaiya 1/350 Enterprise CVN65 For modern USN colors, Randy Short--my partner in paint--recommends: Haze Gray: FS 36270 (26270 for scale effect) Deck Gray: FS 36008 (26176 for scale effect) John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Gloss or flat? They were basically flat, which is why they oxidized so badly and so quickly, and wore so poorly. Photos of the Battle Line at Pearl Harbor appear to show a bit of sheen on freshly painted surfaces, but give any of those USN WW2 paints a day or two in the sun and.... John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Paint mixes Since this seems to keep coming up, I guess a periodic reminder is in order. Randy Short published a list of suggested mixes for the USN purple-blues a few years back in Plastic Ship Modeler. I suspect that the good Mr. Jones might be able to help subscribers.... And if you don't subscribe to PSM--YOU SHOULD! John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys (who have no financial interest in PSM, other than spending $ for our subscriptions) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: German Ship Names on Hulls Photos I've seen indicate that the names consisted of metal letters welded to the hull. These were simply painted out with the hull color during wartime: they were still there, but you couldn't see them. Now, as to modeling that in 1/700 or 1/350...you'd probably need one of our friendly suppliers of photoetch to supply the letters for you to carefully glue to the hull before painting them out. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Edward Wilson" Subject: Tamiya USS Enterprise CVN-65 All of the sponson decks on the Enterprise are covered with non-skid which is then painted dark grey. This is true of ALL weather decks, including those on the island. In other color notes, the life raft capsules were all the same haze grey all the vertical surfaces, including the rubber seals. They were just sprayed along with everything else. As to the hull, it is red lead with a black boot topping. When the ship was drydocked in late '86, the red was very heavely weathered, exposing the zinc-cromate green primer. All that red and green was very Christmasy! It was during this drydocking that the first external modifications were made changing the ship from the configuration depicted in the kit. When the ship was drydocked again at the end of 1990, the red on the hull was still in very good condition, showing none of the extreme weathering she had in 1986. I hope this answers you questions, feel free to e-mail me if you have any more. Ned Wilson USS Enterprise 1986-1992 mailto:staffa@ridgenet.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: Re: Arleigh Burkes Shaya wrote: >> Naval Base Hobbies has them all. 1) A. Burke 1/700 full hull DML 2) Curtis Wilbur 1/700 waterline Skywave 3) A. Burke 1/350 full hull MB Models 4) Winston Churchill FLT II 1/350 full hull MB Models 5) A. Burke wooden kit 1/96 full hull BaD Models << Almost all - The Scale Shipyard has a 1/96 fiberglass hull for the Burke, as well as a number of nice fittings (some much better than the those included in the BaD kit). If someone gets the BaD kit, and finds the hull a bit too much of an undertaking, the SS hull can save you a lot of time. As for accuracy, well, the Navy bought some for hull tests. You can reach them at Scalshpyrd@aol.com Kurt SeaPhoto Maritime Photography -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Fernando, Yohan" Subject: Re: Japanese spelling, etc. In response to John Heasel's question about Japanese ship name pronounciation: Here is one place where I think Japanese is far simpler than English. Unlike English, every sound has a distinct "spelling" (distinct kana character)- and the number of distinct sounds used in Japanese is far far less than English. There are 5 basic vowel sounds which can be combined with consonant sounds to form distinct syllables. They are 'a' (as in 'ah'), 'i' (as in 'ee'), 'u' (as in 'voodoo'), 'e' (as in 'eh') and 'o' (as in 'oh'). So in combination with a 'k' consonant sound, you get 'ka' (as in 'kah'), 'ki' (as in 'kee'), ku (as in 'koo'), 'ke' (as in 'keh'), and 'ko' (as in 'koh'). Another series is ya,yi,yu,ye,yo again pronounced with the same vowel endings. One exception is sa,si,su,se,so (here the 'i' syllable is pronounced as the english word 'she' and is often written in english books as 'shi'). There are another handful of these consonant-vowel series that in all encompass all the sounds used in the language. It adds up to something like just above 100, as opposed to the thousands of sounds used by English. Also, usually each syllable gets stressed the same. So while most English speakers would say 'ya-MA-to', it is more correctly pronounced 'ya-ma-to'. You should be able to sound out most names quite properly once you get the five basic vowel sounds and the equally stressed syllables. A couple of names that you probably hear mis-pronounced the most- Ise should be 'ee-say' and not 'ee-see' Kamikaze should be 'ka-mee-ka-zeh' and not 'ka-mee-ka-zee' Kikusui should be 'kee-koo-soo-ee' (4 distinct syllables) That's pretty much basics. I'm no expert on the subject as I only studied Japanese for a couple of years in college and I'm sure someone could give a better description. Go to your local library and look for some introductory Japanese language tapes that will at least get you to hear words sounded out by a native speaker. Once you hear the basic sounds a couple of times, you'll pick up very quickly. Yohan Fernando -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Kenneth H. Goldman" Subject: Fw: Miniature Naval Flags & Vinyl Lettering Thought this might be of interest, so I'm just forwarding the entire post that was originally sent to rec.models.scale Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER http://www.wman.com/~khgold/ >> From: Model Flags UK Subject: Miniature Naval Flags & Vinyl Lettering (rec.models.scale) This might be of interest to your NG FLAGS It has taken BECC Model Accessories 2 years to perfect the double sided printing process which now enables production of the most realistic looking model flags on an authentic cotton base. Currently producing over 125 designs of Miniature Naval Flags, including historic designs in 8 different sizes from 3/4"(20mm) to 6"(150mm) and constantly adding new designs as requested. Also, Sets of Signal Flags: International Codes and British Codes (1939-1945) in 5 different sizes from Scale 1:128 to 1:48 The designs are extensively researched and meticulously redrawn using the latest CAD software to allow levels of detail previously unavailable. Can supply R.N.L.I. house flags and have also been given permission by H.M. Queen Elizabeth II to reproduce the Royal Standard in miniature form which is perfectly suited to models of the Royal Yacht Britannia. Special designs and club flags can be produced at no additional cost subject to reasonable size of order. The flags are supplied with full instructions which enable them to be finished to suit either static or working models, including RC. VINYL LETTERING This newly launched line might also be of interest. Vinyl Lettering which has a permanent adhesive suitable for indoor and outdoor use without further treatment. Standard sheet includes letters, numbers, water level symbols and roman numerals) in 3 different sizes 6, 10 or 15mm. Presently produced in Matt Black or White. (Other Colours, Matt/Gloss available on request). Excellent for RC models. WEBSITE Visit BECC's website at < www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~becc/ > to see a range of flags and details of current Stockists. QUERIES/ORDER FREE CATALOGUE If you have any queries (technical or otherwise) and/or would like to receive a Free Catalogue giving the complete range with flag size calculator, example of vinyl lettering and details of Stockists please send e-mail to ModelFlags@aol.com. NEED NEW OUTLETS Currently looking for new outlets and will send Free Stockist Pack (with sample flags and vinyl lettering) to interested shops, clubs or other organisations on request. Hope you found this to be of some interest. Regards Model Flags (Marketing) For BECC Model Accessories Please reply to ModelFlags@aol.com "Your favorite pastime is a hobby, the other man's is an obsession" ! << -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Mike C" Subject: Judging I don't understand what all the fuss is about over judging. It's obvious to me that the rules for IPMS/USA (how's that Shane?) are geared toward judging your skill as a modeler and not as a researcher. All the little nitpicks that everyone seems to be complaining about are intended as a way of separating degrees of skill. "Rivet counters" are the guys who whine about *historical* accuracy. These judges are trying to rate your skills as a modeler. Subject and accuracy are secondary. As an example, the first time I met Bill Gruner was in the parking lot at the 1989 IPMS/USA Nationals. He was carrying a 1/48 F6F-5P back to his room for some minor changes. I happen to love Hellcats, so we started talking. As it turned out, I was competing against him in the same catagory with a -1C Helldiver. I beat him for third place because I had more added details. To be fair, there wasn't much more that Bill could have added to his, but that's the way it goes. As it also turned out, I lost to a Dauntless that also had a bunch of added details. Why? Because my rescribed panel lines were too heavy. (I asked the catagory judge later). Skills. The only other time I've entered a model was at Santa Clara. I was going as a vendor and decided to take a couple models to see how they compared to the work of other modelers. The 1/48 Betty that I took got third place. I had built it for TamiyaCon (it got a first in catagory- neat trophy) and wanted to see how it would do at the Nationals. It was heavily weathered and lost to less detailed models that were cleaner. I think it would have done better if I had taken copies of the references I used for the paint job. Most people don't believe how incredibly beat up Japanese paint schemes can become. Mine was accurate, but I couldn't prove it. It makes no sense to me to take points off a model if it is inaccurate unless it is competing against a similar model where the builder has addressed the inaccuracies and can back it up. There, again, is where the importance of displaying references comes into play. I also took a 1/200 Kagero class DD that got a first place. I still have no idea why. I just detailed it to suit my tastes and paid attention to the finish. I agree with Shane that there should be "genre specific" rules that allow cases. I think cases should be allowed even as a general rule, but I think that whoever decides to case his model should be prepared to take his/or her chances on the outcome because the case blocks any chance of closer evaluation. Outstanding models should be recognized for their own merits cased or not, but if two otherwise equal kits are judged (one being cased), I think the one that is uncased should win because closer inspection is possible on that model. I think it is important for modelers to have the choice of protecting their models since the contest staff can't. After the 1989 contest, I was standing near the table talking to the judges. Some Bozo with a video camera was going around taking pictures of the models he liked by getting close with his macro lens. I warned the guy to be careful around the tables and turned to answer a question. Then I heard a noise and, "Ooops" and there went my antenna. The idiot had tried to climb in the rear seat with the camera. If it had been a highly rigged ship that had required six months of working with trained spiders I would have gone ballistic. If you are determined to win a contest then work the rules to the letter. If you make modifications then take copies of your references (I won't trust unguarded originals to be safe)- especially if they are obscure changes. If you can back up your work with evidence, then you'll be rewarded. If you "accurize" a kit or add details, then make sure the judges know what you did by displaying a list of your work. If you don't win then learn from your mistakes and make the next one better. If you don't win anything one time then enter it again- your competion may be lacking next time. Whether or not you make improvements is up to you. I agree with Bruce- if you don't like the rules then work to have them changed or don't enter. There is no gain in just crabbing about it. Above all, enjoy yourself. I prefer to build for my own satisfaction. I figure that's why it's called a hobby. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. Mike Czibovic -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk/ for the back issue archive. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume