Subject: SMML21/11/99VOL736 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 01:16:13 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: The judging thread or in other words "oh s#%T" ;-Ý 2: Re: APMA Magazine 3: HMS Glorious colors in 1918. Please Help¡ 4: Re: Case rule 5: Re: Japanese pronunciation 6: Modelling 7: Re: Judging colors 8: RAF ASR colours 9: HMS Sussex 10: Prince Eugen Decks 11: Bismarck 12: Recent strife 13: Re: HMS Dido 14: Re: Japanese spelling, etc. 15: Re: Judging 16: Looking for 1/350 scale 40mm Bofor guns for my model. 17: Flame War? 18: Heller's 1/400 Graf Spee 19: Sick of the Judging Comments 20: German WWII light cruiser wood decks 21: Re: Judging 22: USS Missouri "Scoreboard" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Trivia #...whatever -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Shane Subject: The judging thread or in other words "oh S#%T" ;-Ý Hi gang, Because I can't find my hob-nailed boots at the moment, I'll try to moderate this moderately ;-) In the following posts on judging there are amongst them, calls for this thread to be terminated by me & what the hell is this thread doing here anyway, etc. Now in my nearly two years on SMML, I have found that most threads will die a natuaral death, usually about the time that people post either privately or to the list saying "enough". So to those guys, I say please be patient. The other solution to threads that may "outstay their welcome" is to start another thread(yellow turrets, Y@#$to, Flo#$@ or knots anyone ;-) ). Also, please remember that with so many subscribers to SMML, there may well be "overflow" of posts regarding ANY subject. I'm always very reluctant to terminate threads, unless they get really out of hand or veer too far off topic - that's just my style. Now to the calls that judging rules have no real place in SMML. Well I'm of the opinion that since many SMML subscribers are also members of modelling clubs and that they are a valid modelling topic so suggestions & comments made about the rules can have an effect from the local club to the international level. Yes, it can be a volatile topic, with many widely disparate views, but that's also healthy. Rusty & others have been happy to answer people's queries about judging rules & have also said that they will endeavour to have proposed changes put forward in their respective clubs. So yes, discussion on SMML has helped to possibly change thoughts on the rules. Also, you can use the scroll bar to go past posts that don't interest you. Ahhh, found the hobnail boots ;-). To those people who are slowly but surely getting wound up over this, chill out, think about what you're about to post & if you can moderate it, please do so. Otherwise I will send it back for re-writing. There is also the option that if you don't think you can do this, to take it to private email or another forum eg: rms. Regards, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Christopher Hughes" Subject: Re: APMA Magazine Hi Shane, Actually, to be (IPMS) pedantic... you're putting together the last APMA mag of the Millennium!! ;0) Chris Hi Chris, Gee mate, what a great advertisement for IPMS pedantics you are, you're only 4 issues short. I mean we do intend to publish 4 issues next year as well, you know. Shane - pedant me!!!! - never -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "John Rodriguez Asti" Subject: HMS Glorious colors in 1918. Please Help¡ Hello: At the moment, I am finishing a model of the battlecruiser HMS Glorious in scale 1/500, but I have doubts about the colors of the hull & superestructures and of the decks. Is there somebody able to help me indicating me which the colors were used by the Royal Navy in those ships in 1918 (without camouflage)? Here in the Peru, there are paintings Humbrol and Testors. Is somebody able to indicate me the colors with their codes? Thanks a lot John Rodriguez Asti Lima, Peru -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Case rule >> Just curious, why must the rule apply across the board. Surely with the differences between modelling topics (not the basics), there would be room for some "genre specific rules"?? << Shane, I hope to find out if the case rule MUST be applied across the board at the CC meeting in Dallas. I may be able to get an exception to the rule in the ship categories. No promises though. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" Hi Rusty, You can't ask for any fairer than that. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: b29@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Japanese pronunciation Thanks Fernando, but I have some questions about this. Would CHOKAI be pronounced "cho" kee" or "cho ka ee", SENDAI "sen dee" or "sen da ee" and NACHI, "na" chee"? Or would the last sylable be pronounced "eye", thus "cho keye", "sen deye" etc? Would CHIKUMA be "chee ku ma" or "cheh ku ma"? And how about HIEI? Is it "hi ee" or "hee eye" or what? Paul Jacobs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "sctrtrash" Subject: Modelling As has been stated many times in this forum, modelling is a hobby. If someone gets great pleasure from building an old Revell, or Aurora kit SOB, with a good paint job, and photo etch, that is his/her prerogative. That is why,......there are different categories in judging. I am not an IPMS member, but build at different levels, for my own enjoyment. To refer to people that one has never met as "morons" is unprofessional, and judgemental, and displays a marked narrowmindedness. I could also add cowardice, but I won't. As one modeller once said. "I build the model, I didn't make the mold" Like one of the SMMLies wrote yesterday. If one has objections to the way something is done, snipping on the side is not the way to accomplish change. Also, we have beat this horse pretty much to oblivion, can someone (Shane) step in and put "closure" to this. IPMS Judging rules, are not going to be changed on SMML. Mark Krumrey New Richmond WI -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Judging colors >> There has been some discussion about the accuracy of colors in IPMS (USA) competition. I want this to be clear. We do not judge color. As long as it's close, we have to move on.<< >> But what if the model is painted *wrong* ? Example: A BF-109 is painted with a splinter paint scheme comprised of the colors Blue and Gray instead of Green & Gray. << As I said in an earlier post any out of the ordinary paint schemes of colors better have a photo of some kind to back what the modeler did. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: geoff-smith@cwcom.net Subject: RAF ASR colours Dear SMMLies, Can anyone give me a guide on the shade of yellow used on the decks and upperworks on the early RAF "Whaleback" rescue launches. "Sailors in the RAF" by Keith Beardow says "bright yellow" and the Airfix instructions say "deep cream". Any help will be welcome. TIA. Regards, Geoff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Peter Sketchley" Subject: HMS Sussex Hi All, I am currently researching the active career of the London class cruiser HMS Sussex, for an ex-crewman. I am interested mainly in the years post refit 1942 - 1946. I would be grateful for any information and especially directions to published (or un published) photographs. Peter Sketchley Cambridge UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Mike Taylor" Subject: Prince Eugen Decks Natural or painted? Work begins on I.S.'s 1/350 kit :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "jmodugno" Subject: Bismarck looking for someone to help me find a sourse for the layout of the antennas on the bismarck. also need to know the color of the railings ,does it match the gray on the hull, or is it another color? thanks c cleary -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Michael John Zwierko Subject: Recent strife Not to offend anyone, but the topic of judging is being beaten to death here. It seems that such a lengthy and heated discussion would be better suited elsewhere, not on a digest devoted to ship modeling. This issue of judging accuracy vs. skill (and case vs. no case) has gone off on quite a long (and sometimes nasty) tangent which seems to have no end. The preliminary postings were somewhat innocent and they pretty much summed it up. However, this redundant commentary and insulting dialogue is just creating unnecessary bickering which, IMO, detracts greatly from this digest. Call it what you want, but when you get right down to it, you are arguing over little plastic models and ways to tell whose is "better". LITTLE PLASTIC MODELS!!! Offensive blanket statements and personal assaults are hardly warranted. If building these little plastic models and entering them in contests gets you this emotional, perhaps you should take a break and gain some perspective. At ease folks, just let it go already. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Re: HMS Dido Dear Mr Langtree, Thank you for the offer to go to the IWM in the next few days, re the photos of the Dido. It is important that the EXACT dates be obtained from the scource notes held by the museum along with ALL other background data. I cannot stress this enough!. The caption that the staff normally give out with each photo IS INADEQUATE. I say this because in Many cases photos are wrongly indentified. If possible can you ask them for a couple of representitive views in good quality xerox form? I have my doubts that the Dido was ever overall light grey, I would suggest an overall medium grey. When you see the pictures please take into account the light variables in the views if possible. Many thanks and I look forward to hearing from you. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Allan and Crystal Plumb Subject: Re: Japanese spelling, etc. >> Here is one place where I think Japanese is far simpler than English. Unlike English, every sound has a distinct "spelling" (distinct kana character)- and the number of distinct sounds used in Japanese is far far less than English. << Yah, that's what I was taught in my Russian classes many, many years ago. There's only about one exception to the rule: "see it, you can say it, and say it, you can spell it". Clearly, we should all dump English for a more regular language. :-) Spokoynoi nochi, auf wiedersehen, au revoir, and all that. Allan Plumb -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: bruce.burden@compaq.com Subject: Re: Judging From: "chenyangzhang" >> So let me see if I get this right - you ask a modeller to remove the case and therefore damage their own model. I am flabbergasted! << I believe Rusty has said he will attempt to change this rule, or to make an esception for ships. Yes, judges can, and unfortunately, do stupid things. It is one of the risks associated with playing the game. >> (Apart from the fact I'm English and wouldn't qualify for membership of the American society anyway). << IPMS/USA does not require American citizenship to be a member. Nor does IPMS/UK restrict their membership to residents of the United Kingdom. >> Another reason is that, like Shane, I model for fun and have no interest in entering competitions or joining societies which will actually offer me nothing at all. << Okay, fine. I have no problem with your attitude regarding contests. Frankly, I feel too many people take contests way too seriously. However, I have to question why you are so incensed regarding something that you have no association with, and may well never be associated with. Denigrating an organization you have no knowledge of seems churlish and purile, and something I would expect from a fellow American (sigh), not from an Englishman. If you really want to discuss the why's of IPMS/USA rules, I suggest we do so off of the list, since it is likely to veer from the shipping channel. From: "Mike C" >> I don't understand what all the fuss is about over judging. It's obvious to me that the rules for IPMS/USA (how's that Shane?) are geared toward judging your skill as a modeler and not as a researcher. Subject and accuracy are secondary. << Ahhh, thank you, somebody who understands the intent. :-) Be still my beating heart! >> It was heavily weathered> and lost to less detailed models that were cleaner. I think it would have done better if I had taken copies of the references I used for the paint job. << This is, unfortunately, an area where I would like to use a kind word to IPMS/USA judges not to detract from a model simply because you dislike the level of weathering or school of weathering technique. As long as the weathering is consistent, the rest shouldn't matter. Unfortunately, judges are human, and have their set of quirks. Which is why you are unlikely to get the same results between the same models at different contests. Oh, and a 2x4. A kind word and a 2x4 applied to the cranium... >> there went my antenna. The idiot had tried to climb in the rear seat with the camera. If it had been a highly rigged ship that had required six months of working with trained spiders I would have gone ballistic. << I would like to encourage all clubs to raise their contest tables an additonal 12"/20cm or so by using PVC (plastic) pipe. The Austin Scale Model Show has done this for 4 years now, and we have found it cuts down on damage from purses, little fingers and cameras. The judges also like it because it raises the table tops to a more comfortable level. Unfortunately, this table leg extension system is only valid if you have a consistent set of tables to work with year in and year out, so I recognise there are very practical limitations. I can't say it would have eliminated the problem described (probably not), but it does help. >> Above all, enjoy yourself. I prefer to build for my own satisfaction. I figure that's why it's called a hobby. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. << That's my kind of attitude. :-) Thanks, Mike. Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Courtney Regan" Subject: Looking for 1/350 scale 40mm Bofor guns for my model. Hello; I have the Tamiya Missouri kit that I will turn her into the USS Iowa as she appeared in Jan 1944. To do this I'm buying the Gold Medal Models Photo etched set for the MISSOURI WORLD WAR II configuration. Besides the brass detail parts; for the major modifications of Missouri's superstructure, to turn her into the Iowa (with her open type bridge) I bought Classic Warships 1:350th W.W.II USS Iowa Conversion Kit. This kit has about 11 resin pieces and the early type planes the Iowa carried on the stern. Here's the URL to see what I'm talking about: http://classicwarships.simplenet.com/conversion_kits.htm I picked the Iowa in WW II form for a few reasons. One of them was because I wanted to do a fast US Battleship from WW II and particularly the USS Iowa early in her career. But to portray her new and right out of commissioning would require some modifications to the Tamiya Missouri kit, which also attracted me because of the challenge. But I may of not of chosen the Iowa as she was in 1944, unless there was a suitable conversion kit for the Iowa class's bridge and superstructure. But now to the reason I write to those of you out there. Well I'm not really thrilled with the 40-mm Bofor guns that come with the 1/350 scale Tamiya Missouri kit. The guns in the kit are very bulky and do not look like the real thing at all. So what I'm looking for out there are any companies that make high quality examples of the Bofor guns. I know there are probably secondary manufactures or small cottage industry Company's that produce much more intricate and lifelike 1/350 scale Bofor guns. If any one knows any company out there that sells these miniatures, please let me know how I can get in touch with the person or company. I may also be interested in replacing the kit's 20-mm guns, but I can live with those if I must. So anyone out there who knows where I can find what I'm looking for, please help me out and tell me how I can get in touch with these companies, or let them e-mail me. Thanks a lot, Courtney Regan Boston, MA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Norman C. Samish" Subject: Flame War? I think both sides in this judging debate have good points, so I don't have an ax to grind. Nevertheless, I'm sorry to see the beginning of a flame war in SMML. I'll be sorry to see this, because I think it will cause SMML to lose the friendly, informed air which makes SMML a great read. I can't agree with Chris Langtree's comment, "As this subject has been aired in a public forum I like all others who subscribe to this forum are entitled to comment on it." I don't think SMML is a public forum - it's the list owner's forum. Offensive comments are not a "right". I also object to Chris's phrase, "I think its pretty contemptile that both of you (Bruce and Rusty) are defending the indefensible." Even if their viewpoint was in error (it isn't) doesn't make it contemptible. Chris's following comment is untrue and boorish: "Idiotic rules like this exist because a) they were drafted by active morons who were the only ones who thought that sitting down for hours to quibble about things was important and b) anyone with a bit of sense in the organisation has neither the inclination or the power to change things." Chris, if you want to convince me of the validity of your point of view, you should refrain from offensive language. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them contemptible, idiotic, or an active moron. Yours for civility, Norm Samish -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: LUCASNER@aol.com Subject: Heller's 1/400 Graf Spee Ok, I'm sure this has come up before, but humor me... I just bought Heller's 1/400 Graf Spee and am wondering if there are any identified inaccuracies in her. I'd like to build her as outfitted for the River Plate, how close is she to this? I believe that the number of 20mm mounts is wrong (ie. too few) but other than that, what do I have to look forward to?? Thanks, Dave Lueck -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Sick of the Judging Comments I wish that the ranting and raving about judging would end. This is part of what drives people away from IPMS. Many people have told me this, and I am starting to really believe it. I would hope that this list is about modeling, enough is enough. Thanks, Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: German WWII light cruiser wood decks The following is what some of us would like to see on this list, actual modeling dialog!!! For the person who was looking for information on wood decks of German WWII light cruisers: I have a German language book on the Nurnberg which has pictures of the wood decks. One thing that is very interesting. The wood decking follows the contour of the deck to hull edge, just like that of a sail boat. The planks bend and meet at the centerline at both the bow and stern! That would be a modeling challenge indeed!. Especially for the mentally challenged! On the K class ships (Karlsrue, Konigsberg, and Koln) the planking runs in the "normal" for and aft pattern along the centerline. Hope this helps, Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: SAMI ARIM Subject: Re: Judging Mike Czibovic wrote: >> I also took a 1/200 Kagero class DD that got a first place. I still have no idea why. I just detailed it to suit my tastes and paid attention to the finish. << Hi Mike, I was one of the judges at Santa Clara in 1998, who judged this category. I remember very well that your model was one of the finest work that I have ever seen. Thats exactly why you won. And on the subject of judging, my opinion is that IPMS/USA rules are perfectly set to judge the modelers ability to model. Accuracy is relevant to a certain degree and the rest is to satisfy the modeler himself/herself. Sami Arim Walnut Creek, CA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Duane Fowler Subject: USS Missouri "Scoreboard" Hello, I am trying to make a decal set for the USS Missouri. I can see the "Scoreboard" under the bridgewing is several photographs, especially during the Japanese surrender ceremonies. However, none of the photos I have are very clear and I can not tell what all the items are. What I would like to know is: 1) What are all the figures painted on the side of the bridgewing? 2) About how big are they? 3) What did the scoreboard look like during Korea? 4) Does anyone know what is on the bridgewings of the other Iowa Class ships? Any help would be very helpful. These decals will be going on ships that will be on permanent display aboard the USS Missouri in Pearl Harbor. Best regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Jeff Herne" Subject: Trivia #...whatever Ok, We're back...the triple expansion engine question was a flop, see what you get for trusting a single source written in the 1950s? The ship I was thinking of was the Russian battleship SINOP, which in fact wasn't lost in combat. She did however see action in April of 1919 during the Russian Revolution. At any rate, the other battleships lost in this action were: Tri Sviatitelia Rostislav Pantelimon Ievstafi Ioann Zlatoust BTW, a fantastic reference for Russian and Soviet naval history can be found here: http://www.navy.ru/ So, onto the next question.... (Naval Aviation - Potential 8 point question) What was the first occasion (date) that a rotary winged aircraft operated from an aircraft carrier. Name the carrier. (2 points) Bonus #1 - Name the aircraft. (1 pt.) Bonus #2 - Who was the pilot? (1 pt.) Bonus #3 - What was the first aircraft to operate without any landing gear and what ship did it first operate from? (2 pts) Bonus #4 - In the pre-WW II period the first drone (pilotless) aircraft was tested for anti-aircraft practice. What ship was involved in the first trial and what was the designation of the drone.? (2 pts.) Good Luck! email all answers to: mailto:warships@juno.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk/ for the back issue archive. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume