Subject: SMML23/11/99VOL738 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 07:39:31 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: 1/700 Fujimi Kittyhawk 2: USS Iowa 3: Credit where credits due. 4: Re: Japanese pronunciation 5: RAF Launches 6: Troops in East Timor 7: Re: Submarine Chasers 110' wooden hull 8: Re: MS 1 9: Re: RAF rescue launches 10: Re: Panay not first, etc. 11: Philosophy of Scale Modelling 12: O.R.P. Models and quit yer' bickerin' 13: Opening comments/plea for normalcy 14: Judge not lest you be judged 15: Judging, IPMS, and display cases 16: Rusty White's reply to Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Pacific Front New Items -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS Hi, everybody, Mistress Lorna is back!! All this discussion about judging has reminded Shane that unless he spends some time at the modelling bench he won't have anything finished for our club's end of year competition. So he's been evicted from the chair for a couple of days while he finishes the O***** (I'm sure by now you can all fill in the blanks). It's funny how talking a lot about modelling makes you want to go and build something he says. Of course the threats I levelled at him probably didn't hurt either ;-) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Alan Salas" Subject: 1/700 Fujimi Kittyhawk Hello Everyone Has anyone purchased and built the 1/700 Kittyhawk by Fujimi? It's a lot of money, especially compared to the 1/720 offerings by Italeri and I'm wondering if the quality is worth the extra bucks. Thanks to all Allan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Joe Costanzo Subject: USS Iowa What changes did USS Iowa recieve in 1944? Also, did she wear ms22 at any point in 1944? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Fritz Koopman Subject: Credit where credits due. Hi Ladies and Gents. As Thanksgiving aproaches here in the Americas, I figured I better hand out some thanks to those manufacturers that have helped out in my fun. First, A thank you to Snyder & Short and Loren Perry at GMM. Two Thursdays ago I sent an order to these guys for a couple of photo etch sets from GMM, and paint chips from S&S. If there's one thing I hate about mail order, its the waiting for the stuff to show up. Many of the larger companies out there (aka hobbyweb, etc.) have "4 to 6 week" delivery times that drive me nuts with anticipation. These two companies on the other hand, had my stuff to me in exactly a week, the next Thursday. I LIKE THAT! Also, an aside note to anyone who is currently thinking about the S&S Paint chips, but have held back because they're worried about whether the price is right or not: Forget the price... Just buy them! I held back for about a month ( I've got a limited bank account that forces me to think seriously whenever something costs more than twenty bucks). After seeing these chips with my own eyes, I feel stupid for having let that $$ thing hold me back for even that short a time. It took me only the mere ten minutes, required to initialy inspect the three sets I got ( USN 1, USN 2, & IJN), to realize that this was one of the best modeling related investments I'd ever made (and possibly ever will make). These are well worth the money. I would also like to send out somewhat belated, but well deserved thanks, to Iron Shiprights, and Toms Modelworks. Durring the summer, I ordered the I S 1/350 kit of the Detroit. The kit looks to be a good build, showed up promptly ( 1 1/2 weeks), with all parts (plus spares), and undamaged durring shipping. Now as soon as the local USS Marblehead Archives finish moving their office, and can get me the early '45 photos I asked for, I'll be able to start converting the kit to the Marblehead. With any luck I may have this one ready for SMMLie'con. As for Toms, the last time I had the opportunity to order stuff from him was a little over a year and a half ago (were talking realy belated here). I ordered up a bottom half of his 1/350 Arizona (that I had picked up retail), along with several frets of PE for other projects. The shipment showed in about 2 weeks, but was missing two sets of 1/700 20mm Oerlikon PE frets. I put in a quick call to Tom. No questions were asked, just merely an "Oops! Must have forgotten to stick those in there.", and they showed up in the mail four days later. My impression of his service, while only based on one event, is a good one. Thanks for making life hassle free. Keep up the good work guys. Fritz Koopman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Fernando, Yohan" Subject: Re: Japanese pronunciation CHOKAI - cho-ka-ee (but when pronounced at spoken speeds, closer to cho-keye) SENDAI- same as Chokai NACHI- Na-chee CHIKUMA- Chee-ku-ma HIEI- Hee-eh-ee Yohan Fernando -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Martin Short" Subject: RAF Launches >> Can anyone give me a guide on the shade of yellow used on the decks and upperworks on the early RAF "Whaleback" rescue launches. "Sailors in the RAF" by Keith Beardow says "bright yellow" and the Airfix instructions say "deep cream". Any help will be welcome. TIA. << Geoff, If you can access a copy of Roger Freeman's "The Royal Airforce of World War Two in colour", check out pages 84- 85. The Launch (#2562) decks are clearly bright yellow, as are what appears to be splinter padding covering the top of the upperworks. Humbrol 154 toned down a bit looks to be a reasonable match to the photo; RAF trainer yellow looks to dull.. Can scan if you need, just contact me off list and will do when I get back home this weekend.. Hope this helps, cheers Martin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Bonini Srl" Subject: Troops in East Timor Sorry, Shane, but you forgot somebody else, as well... There are italian troops, of the airborne division "Folgore" and of the marine landing corps "San Marco" (total, I think, about 500 men) ; They arrived by air (with the Hercules of the 46th Aerobrigata), and the most part of them after a quite long seatrip with the "San Giorgio" of the Italian Navy. Best greetings to everybody from the snowy mountains of Northern Italy, Giusto Gallas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Lawman555@aol.com Subject: Re: Submarine Chasers 110' wooden hull Donald Taber had written to you guys about the WWII 110' sub chasers. I would like to mention the new web site by Ted Treadwell. Ted has put a LOT of time into writing his book about the "Splinter Fleet" and I am sure he is not a stranger to you guys. He has upstaged my web site on the SC1012 http://members.aol.com/Lawman555/subchaser) with his more futuristic and outstanding web site at: http://members.aol.com/diodor/splinterfleet He has composed a rather in depth look and info on the WWII subchasers. It may we be a shot in the arm for those interested in trying to create a scratchbuilt subchaser. He, as well as I am offering whatever help we can be to anyone wishing info on these ships. Thanks for your time Jim Myers PS "Ted did upstage my site; but he did it well. I applaud him." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: MS 1 This will probably drive a lot of modelers a bit crazy, but there is increasing evidence that the Battle Line was NOT in MS 1 at the time of Pearl Harbor. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: geoff-smith@cwcom.net Subject: Re: RAF rescue launches Al Ross wrote : >> Quite a few years ago, John Pritchard did a series of color renderings of various RAF rescue boats. The yellow he used in his renderings was definitely a "full-bodied" yellow, not unlike FLOQUIL's Reefer Yellow. As I remember, John was on at least one "Whaleback" (63' British Power Boat Company ASRL), built ship models, and drew a series of 1/24 scale plans of ASRLs and other small combatants, so he had both first and second-hand experience with the type. << Thanks for the quick reply Al, that makes 2:1 in favour of bright and both by former crew. Just two more questions, if I might make a nuisance of myself. I've just come across a Revell "Vosper MTB", the length of which is 30.6 or 30.9 cm. This should make it suitable for a conversion to one of the RAF's Vosper 73ft ASRLs if : 1) the hulls of the 1:1 MTB and ASRL were the same design and 2) the kit hull is anything like the original design. Any thoughts? And while I'm asking, do the Coastal Forces books have any data on the RAF's boats? Regards, Geoff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Mark Krywienko Subject: Re: Panay not first, etc. FRED E. KENNAMER wrote >> There was a German U-boat sunk by an allied aircraft in World War 1 << According to my Janes Fighting Ships of WW1, the Germans lost 203 Submarines. UB 20 Destroyed by seaplanes 8676 and 8862, in the North Sea 29th July 1917. UB32 Destroyed by seaplane 9860, 27 miles Nth of Cape Barfleur, 18th August 1917 UC36 Destroyed by bombs of seaplane 8663, 20 miles ENE of Noord Hinder Lightship, 20th May 1917 >> and I think an Austrian plane sank a French submarine too, but I'm a bit fuzzy on that.<< Foucault (1910) 392 tons. Sunk by bombs from Austrian seaplane in Lower Adriatic 15th September 1916. >> If memory serves, U-boats also sank two Japanese destroyers on convoy duty in the Mediterranean << There is no mention of any Japanese loses in the Mediterranean. The only Destroyer they lost was the 'Shirotaye' which was wrecked during an engagement with German gunboat 'Jaguar' in Kiao-Chau Bay, 4th September 1914. Hope this information helps Regards, Mark Krywienko -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Tom Eisenhour Subject: Philosophy of Scale Modelling Jens Brandal wrote: >> If this is your idea of fun, I hope you find pleasure in it, but don't slam the people who would rather build models because they enjoy the craftworks aspect rather than the exact historical representation. << Jens got it exactly right: let's remember that scale models are miniature representations of reality, and can never be exact replicas in miniature. And representations will vary in how faithful they are to the actual subject, as in the case of a portrait. That's where the art of the hobby comes in. Remember: "Craftsmanship creates its own credibility." Best wishes for a very Happy Thanksgiving to all American SMML subscribers, Tom Eisenhour Austin, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Ralph Koziarski" Subject: O.R.P. Models and quit yer' bickerin' I'm looking for some models of Polish Navy ships from WWII and pre-WWII eras. Any scale really, but nothing to huge... I've actually seen a kit by Mirage (i forget what ship it was). It's in 1/400 scale. Can anyone tell me about this kit? How accurate is it, is the fit good? etc etc... So, yeah, anything injection molded, and attainable... I'd be interested in. Thanks. Ralph P.S. Enough with the judging debates!! Modeling is supposed to be for fun, and for the pleasure derived from good craftsmanship and a job well done. Hell, none of my models would win, but so what? They look nice on my bookcases and I had fun building. Competition is but a small aspect of this hobby, and when you build only to win, it all becomes a chore, a task, and not the relaxing and fullfilling ART-FORM it's intended to be. So all you Michaelangelos and DaVincis out there, calm down and build for fun for a change. The end result will still look good. Damn, thats a long post script :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Michael John Zwierko Subject: Opening comments/plea for normalcy Shane, I agree that discussion is healthy and that a large list will have overflow, but this IPMS judging thread has gone far past the point of usefulness. Those with the ability to effect change have heard the collective "voice", and a possible rule change may be forthcoming. Any further debate (and/or altercation) is overkill and will surely drive some subscribers away if left unchecked for too long. To say that one should scroll past unwanted posts is also a valid recommendation. However, when half to three-quarters of the digest must be scrolled past, it turns an informative and enjoyable reading experience into an annoying one. Many of us, I am sure, subscribed to this list to exchange information on ships and that is where the displeasure stems from. We do not need to hear adults arguing over this type of thing continuously. As this is your list, Shane, you call the shots and that is how it should be. If you do not want to call for a cessation of this thread due to your belief in its applicability, so be it. However, let it be known that there is also a group of subscribers who would like to read about ships more often than not. ********************* For the gentleman (Bruce, I believe) who is displeased with the perceived attitudes of his countrymen, I am sorry to hear that you feel that way. As a proud American myself, I hate to see it when fellow Americans belittle their bretheren. The actions and comments of one person with regards to modeling (or judging, or whatever) do not warrant a condemnation (of sorts) of Americans in general. To say that Americans are expectedly "churlish" and "purile" is most certainly in bad form. I can only hope that your comments are a joke that I missed somehow. For everyone else, I apologize for the above response. I will leave it at that. This is a -ship modeling- digest folks. From this point on, let us please steer it back in that direction and stop these pointless and offensive postings. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Satin, Michael N. (SHEP)" Subject: Judge not lest you be judged I've tried to stay off the Judging thread, but Chris Langtree's comments this past weekend were just too much for me to keep quiet about. Mike Czibovic was absolutely right, this is a modeling competition and the emphasis is on modeling skill, not researching skill! I have run IPMS contests and judged in them and I simply can't let comments like those by Mr. Langtree go without disputing them. These judges and the people writing the rules work HARD to do what is almost always a thankless job. There are so many differences of opinion in this hobby about what ought to be judged and what the correct criteria are that it is impossible to please everyone. It is equally impossible to take all variables into account when looking at hundreds (or thousands) of different subjects and their accuracy. What is possible is to judge on modeling skills first, and look at add-ons and "corrections" when the field has been whittled down to those who did their modeling well (often a surprisingly small number). Name-calling of people with this kind of devotion to helping make a contest/convention a fun experience for others is simply uncalled for, Mr. Langtree's "rights" notwithstanding. I've just seen too many people come to these things, waltz in late and register 20 models (sometimes wanting to go into the contest room and see the competition first), breeze off and have fun in the vendor room or on tours, and then come back and bitch about the judging! Judging can take hours during which the people doing it miss out on the rest of the stuff going on. But they do it because it wouldn't be a contest if they didn't. If you don't like the way it's done, stay out of it (and don't use the excuse about not being the right nationality, as others have pointed out)! If you have a brilliant scheme to "fix" it all, I'm sure Rusty and his colleagues would love to hear it! But being offensive, no matter your feelings, isn't going to solve anything either on this list or off it. When I was a kid I used (like most kids) to sound off on whatever issues I thought I knew everything about. My father used to tell me that I didn't know what I was talking about. That drove me crazy, but as I've gotten older and experienced life I've discovered he was usually right. Walk a mile in their shoes before you start getting nasty, Mr. Langtree. Michael Satin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Percy, John" Subject: Judging, IPMS, and display cases Hello all, Look, I'm not that good a modeler, so I never enter contests, and I'm not an IPMS members, so I have no vested interest in any of this bruhaha thread about the IPMS rule about whether they should or should not judge models in display cases. So, as an outside, uninterested observer born and bred in democratic America, I ask this simple question: IPMS has "members" right? Well, at the next nationals, have every person who enters a model cast a vote on the issue and be done with it! Make it a requirement at the signup table! Simple Example: "Should the current IPMS rule of not judging models covered by display cases be repealed?" Yes - Now the judges have to deal with it. If model is in a display case, it must be judged whether or not the modelers chooses to remove it during judging. Tough luck, deal with it. No - Now the modeler has to deal with it. If your model is covered in a display case, and you won't/don't remove it during judging, it'll be skipped over. Tough luck, deal with it. Sheesh! John Percy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Rusty White's reply to Chris Langtree Something very unusual has happened. I had a not so nice reply to Chris Langtree's ranting two days ago. Shane sent it back to me and politely declined to post it. However, after Chris's latest diatribe, Shane wrote and told me to go for it if I still felt the same way. Below is my reply to Shane after he pulled my first post. His message was longer, but for the sake of space I only included the important parts of his message. Next below is the original post I sent to Chris Langtree via SMML. I appreciate Shane changing his mind on this one. Just remember, the final decision to post it was mine. Don't blame Shane, blame me. One last thing, this will be the LAST word I have on the subject. I will answer no more posts on the subject. I just felt I had the same right to defend IPMS/USA as Chris did to falsely accuse us. Shane said: >>Don't like doing this, but maybe this should go straight to Chris & not be posted on SMML. << My reply was: Sorry Shane, but he was allowed to make those stupid statements on SMML. I thought I could at least give an answer in the same forum. I'm sorry it's not the one you would like to see. I would suggest in the future if we're not allowed to reply, then don't print the accusations. It's your call. Sorry I came across so harsh, but anti-IPMSers like that don't have any idea what they are talking about. They just enjoy making accusations. I will never stand for this kind of crap. I felt I could at least defend IPMS/USA since he was able to falsely accuse us so blatantly. Writing to Chris personally would accomplish nothing. Nothing I could say or do would affect his closed minded way of thinking. That's why I answered on SMML. The rest of the list could make an informed decision once the facts were known. I guarantee you, in my position at IPMS/USA I know of what I speak, unlike Chris. I also understand your cutting me back to prevent a flame war. Unfortunately, sometimes the only way to clean a room is to burn it out. From now on when crap like that is posted on SMML, don't think for a second that I'll roll over and take it. Give the anti-IPMSers the same treatment you gave me, cut them off. My original post was: Chris wrote: >>So let me see if I get this right - you ask a modeller to remove the case and therefore damage their own model. I am flabbergasted! << I replied: I have run across this word game crap before from anti-IPMS types and I won't play the game. You know what I meant. If you don't agree, fine. Chris wrote: >>Do you really think that I want to be associated with a society that actually does that? (Apart from the fact I'm English and wouldn't qualify for membership of the American society anyway) << I replied: More word game crap. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence can read and understand what I said in regard to IPMS/USA rules. I doubt you have ever been a member of IPMS anywhere or you would know anyone, anywhere can belong to any organization they wish. The last time I checked the choice is yours as far as joining any organization. Chris wrote: >>As this subject has been aired in a public forum I like all others who subscribe to this forum are entitled to comment on it. If you want it quiet then discuss it behind closed doors.<< I replied: Who said you weren't encouraged to participate? You implied we do (more word game crap). Obviously, anti- IPMSer's (which you no doubt are) opinions are welcomed here. No one here ever discouraged anyone from participating as you infer. I have no trouble at all defending my position on IPMS/USA in general no matter how my statements are manipulated. As I said, I don't play the word game. Chris wrote: >>Another reason is that, like Shane, I model for fun and have no interest in entering competitions or joining societies which will actually offer me nothing at all. << I replied: Like I don't build for enjoyment? I now know what your beef is with IPMS. It took a few paragraphs, but it finally came out. Why didn't you just say you don't like to compete and you resent those that do and be done with it? I can tell you why. It sounds closed minded and you know it. Rusty White IPMS/USA Head ship judge http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" It is only fair that both sides of any argument be presented so that people can think about it properly. While there is a place for spirited discussion on SMML, a flame war just gets in the way. Having said that, I hope the subscriber base can understand why this particular topic is now CLOSED. Shane - having a break from wrestling with the ever-hungry carpet monster :-(( -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Bill Gruner Subject: AD: Pacific Front New Items HERE'S WHAT'S NEW FROM PACIFIC FRONT HOBBIES: 1. From WSW Germany - 1/700 scale resin kit - French Light Cruiser GEORGES LEYGUES(1945)....Should be here in 2 weeks....$69.00 2. From WSW Germany - 1/700 scale resin kit - French Destroyer LE TERRIBLE (1945)....$36.00 3. From Tamiya -1/700 scale plastic kit of new Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force "LST" OHSUMI(Actually a small assault carrier like an LHA or LPH)...NEW..Should be here in 2 weeks......$35.00 4. From WSW Germany -1/700 scale resin kit - Austro-Hungarian Battleship RADETSKY (1914)...Available late December.....$62.00 5. From WSW Germany - 1/700 scale resin kit - Austro-Hungarian Battleship FERDINAND MAX (1914)....available late December.....$62.00 Thanks, Bill Gruner Pacific Front Hobbies shipguy@internetcds.com http://www.pacificfront.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk/ for the back issue archive. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume