Subject: SMML24/11/99VOL739 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 01:35:08 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Graf Spee ID 2: Re: Dido and Queen Elizabeth 3: Re: Japanese pronunciation 4: Re: Judges Handbook 5: Anyone know Van Bagwell ? 6: Re: Making your own drawings 7: Rail and stantion colors 8: Rocky Mountain Shipyards Sub Plans (Question) 9: Re: new thread please 10: Re: USS Iowa 11: Re: ASRs 12: Re: Japanese pronunciation 13: RAF whaleback ASRLs 14: STOP this Judging thread! 15: Ms 1 16: RAF RESCUE LAUNCHES 17: Independence class and Polish ships 18: Iowa BB 61 19: IJN Destroyer Torpedo rails 20: Accuracy to prototype and Richelieu book 21: MS 1 22: Marine Paints 23: 1/700 Fujimi Kittyhawk 24: Re: Iowa 25: gun data 26: Re: 1/350 Cleveland CL 27: Question about the Yamato's last mission!! 28: Internet Hobby Shops 29: Re: MS 1 30: USS Iowa -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Summers,David" Subject: Graf Spee ID I couldn't find the photo but I distinctly remember seeing a head-on B&W photo of the Graf Spee in Montevideo with "Graf Spee" in medium gray German Gothic lettering across the forward surface of the bridge, filling about 1/3 of the width of the space. A similar shot of the Sheer in Wilhelmshaven on 4 Sept 39 doesn't show similar lettering--probably the name is a peacetime measure (the Germans promoted ship ID confusion). I understand the crew of the Graf Spee removed the lettering a few days later, on 17 Dec '39. The thread on deck coloring has sent me back to the books! Though some photos appear to show painted decks, most don't. The reason for teak on a steel ship is traction in foul weather. Painting negates that advantage. As a safety measure, paint was probably applied only during high-threat times & locations (eg. 1942 and Okinawa for US ships). Weather and wear would also tend to remove paint rapidly. A good aerial B&W view of the Mississippi on 11 Apr 45 [MS-21] shows very dark decks (painted?) close to the superstructure/gun tubs, blending to lighter colors (natural wood?) on the fore and aft decks with very light center tracks ("white"?) where wear would be the most. Wet teak is very dark, which makes photo interpretation (and model reproduction) problematic. D Summers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Re: Dido and Queen Elizabeth Thanking you in advance, and if by any chance , ----- a quick look for any views of the QE in LATE 1941. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: fwagner Subject: Re: Japanese pronunciation I believe there are a few tricky pronunciations in Japanese. A couple are: General Yamashita, "the Tiger of Malaya,"--his name was pronounced: Ya - mash - ta. The Japanese dish sukiyaki is pronounced skee-ya-kee. The medieval castle on Okinawa is spelled Nakagusuku but is pronounced Na-ka-gus-ku. The "u" is silent at the end of some words, such as gosaimasu. But those are just observations over the years and I don't know the general rules. Regards, Fritz Wagner Yohan Fernando wrote: >> Here is one place where I think Japanese is far simpler than English. Unlike English, every sound has a distinct "spelling" (distinct kana character)- and the number of distinct sounds used in Japanese is far far less than English. There are 5 basic vowel sounds which can be combined with consonant sounds to form distinct syllables. They are 'a' (as in 'ah'), 'i' (as in 'ee'), 'u' (as in 'voodoo'), 'e' (as in 'eh') and 'o' (as in 'oh'). So in combination with a 'k' consonant sound, you get 'ka' (as in 'kah'), 'ki' (as in 'kee'), ku (as in 'koo'), 'ke' (as in 'keh'), and 'ko' (as in 'koh'). Another series is ya,yi,yu,ye,yo again pronounced with the same vowel endings. One exception is sa,si,su,se,so (here the 'i' syllable is pronounced as the english word 'she' and is often written in english books as 'shi'). There are another handful of these consonant-vowel series that in all encompass all the sounds used in the language. It adds up to something like just above 100, as opposed to the thousands of sounds used by English. Also, usually each syllable gets stressed the same. So while most English speakers would say 'ya-MA-to', it is more correctly pronounced 'ya-ma-to'. You should be able to sound out most names quite properly once you get the five basic vowel sounds and the equally stressed syllables. A couple of names that you probably hear mis-pronounced the most- Ise should be 'ee-say' and not 'ee-see' Kamikaze should be 'ka-mee-ka-zeh' and not 'ka-mee-ka-zee' Kikusui should be 'kee-koo-soo-ee' (4 distinct syllables) That's pretty much basics. I'm no expert on the subject as I only studied Japanese for a couple of years in college and I'm sure someone could give a better description. Go to your local library and look for some introductory Japanese language tapes that will at least get you to hear words sounded out by a native speaker. Once you hear the basic sounds a couple of times, you'll pick up very quickly. << -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Judges Handbook >> And since all it takes to be a judge is to be an IPMS member and agree to be one, I think everyone should try it once. It's pretty painless, you'll learn a lot about the side that is so easy to criticize, have a better idea what is being looked for, and you just might (heaven forbid) learn something new. << I think Jon stated my feelings on the judging subject very well. Actually, I became an IPMS judge for the free food (Ha Ha). The only addition I would make to Jon's statement is, in order for any IPMS/USA member to become a national judge, they must first serve as an on the job training (OJT) judge. This is an important part of the process. I thought after judging for some years at the regional level, I pretty much knew it all. As it turned out, I had no idea how little I knew. This experience not only taught me how to judge a model properly, but (as Jon states) it taught me what judges look for when building my own models. I would advise everyone to get a copy of the IPMS/USA Judges Handbook. It is currently being rewritten to include the latest additions and changes to the techniques we use. I personally added "how to properly judge photo etch application techniques" added to the ships models section of the handbook. The Handbook spells out everything judges look for when judging every type of model there is (aircraft, armor, figures, ships etc. I am actively working to get a Judges Handbook in the hands of every OJT at the nationals for them to keep. I just have to get the E. Board to pay for it. This is the next best thing to OJT judging. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: THENRYS@aol.com Subject: Anyone know Van Bagwell ? Edward 'Van' Bagwell, a talented ship modeler who lives here in Spartanburg, SC, was struck by a pickup truck in a hit and run incident on Friday evening. According to the local paper, he was struck and thrown from his bicycle, which was stuck and carried in the grill of the truck for several hundred yards. Two witnesses attampted to follow the truck and got a tag number, but the police have not found the coward who struck Van and ran. Van is currently in the hospital with a compression fracture of the spine and was in serious condition as of Saturday. His father was quoted in the paper as saying that Van is in good spirits and the doctors are confident of a full recovery. Our thoughts and prayers are with Van, and I hope to speak with him soon. I didn't know if any of you know Van - although I'm pretty sure some of you do, but if anyone wants to send him your thoughts or best wishes, E-mail me and I'll be glad to print them out and deliver them to him. Thanks. Todd Henry BTW : You can see a build of Van's HMS Hood on the Warship site. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Making your own drawings >> Lacking any detailed plans/drawings to go by (and use in the construction of the new subassemblies), does anyone have any suggestions on where I should begin work on this? << There are a number of very cheap CAD programs ($40.00 or $50.00) available that would work fine to make simple drawings. No 3D or anything elaborate but making drawings to scale would not be a problem. Hope this helps. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Rail and stantion colors I'm currently working on a Fletcher class DD with a multi colors camouflage scheme (sorry, don't know the measure number off the top of my head). Does the Navy paint the rails and stanchions the same color as the surrounding camouflage color? I thought they left them whatever the most prevalent color of the ship (gray) was. Can someone set me straight on this? Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: LYRAD801@cs.com Subject: Rocky Mountain Shipyards Sub Plans (Question) Hello, First message to this list. I have a question on the submarine plans sold by Rocky Mountain Shipyards. Maybe I should provide a link: http://www.wic.net/~rms/plans.htm He doesn't provide very much information. I'm most interested in the plans drawn by Greg Sharp. Here are two examples: USS Los Angeles SSN 688/ USS San Juan SSN 751 5 views, includes Vertical Launch System for San Juan class. DSD-01A 1:72 scale, 60" length $21.60 DSD-01B 1:96 scale, 45" length $16.20 DSD-10 Typhoon Class SSBN (Project 941) 1:96 scale, 69.5". $21.60 Prices seem pretty reasonable for plans of such size. The Typhoon plans look interesting; I've been discussing about it online recently. Could someone who has looked at these please give a review? Thanks, Daryl. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Rod Dauteuil Subject: Re: new thread please Folks, I agree wholeheartedly with Mike Zwierko when he says let's put this IPMS judging issue to rest. I've gone back to my saved files and as near as I can tell, this discussion began around October 28, almost a full month ago! Those who have an opinion one way or another, great. But many of us (I'm sure) are scrolling past these comments to get to something useful, like, for instance SHIP MODELING. I anxiously await this daily to read the questions, advice, and general friendly banter over ship models, not hear opinions, arguments, and insults. Hoping this list will get back on track, I remain. Rod. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "John Sheridan" Subject: Re: USS Iowa >> What changes did USS Iowa recieve in 1944? Also, did she wear ms22 at any point in 1944?<< USS Iowa was comissioned 1943 in MS 22. She then was re-painted into MS 31a/1b for most of 1944. She then was painted back to MS 22 for all of 1945. John R. Sheridan What I do to Spammers: http://microscale.com/images/N2.jpg -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: ASRs >> I've just come across a Revell "Vosper MTB", the length of which is 30.6 or 30.9 cm. This should make it suitable for a conversion to one of the RAF's Vosper 73ft ASRLs if : 1) the hulls of the 1:1 MTB and ASRL were the same design and 2) the kit hull is anything like the original design. << Not even close! Conversion would begin with throwing away almost everything in the box... :-) The Revell kit is of a much modified, license-built version of the original 72'6" Vosper MTB built in the USA for the Soviet Navy. >> And while I'm asking, do the Coastal Forces books have any data on the RAF's boats? << Very limited material on the Fairmile Ds converted to Long Range Rescue Craft (LRRC) in volume 1. Al Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Paul Toscano" Subject: Re: Japanese pronunciation Hi Paul. Concerning the pronunciation of these vessels, Chokai is written with two characters cho (the o is long so it sounds like choh) and kai. Kai is pronounced as one word kai rhymes with "buy") Nachi is pronounced na chee Chikuma is chee ku ma Hiei is hee ey I hope this helps, Paul Osaka, Japan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: RAF whaleback ASRLs The articles by John Prichard that I remember seeing were in Military Modelling (68' BPB 'double decker' - sorry, not sure of the date but post-January 1976, 64' BPB 'flat iron' in March 1977, four examples of 63' Type 2s in October 1977, Thornycrofts in May 1978, four examples of Type 3s in September 1978) and Airfix Magazine (63' Type 2 in August 1979 plus more photos in September and December 1979, modelling the Airfix Type 2 (as 156) in November 1979 and more on detailing it in May 1980). Apparently he also wrote about the 63' 'whaleback' in Battle magazine of January 1976. Robert Lockie Cambridge UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Charles Stephanian Subject: STOP this Judging thread! Please stop all this nonsense...take it off the list! Many of us on this list are NOT IPMS members...I could care less what you all do. This is supposed to be a ship modelling list...not an IPMS ship modelling judging list. Contrary to the moderator and some members' beliefs, this has no relevance to those of us who are 'just' ship modelers. The answer is not for the rest of us to scroll past the posts....the answer is to take it off this list....start your own damn IPMS forum! Charles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Ms 1 John Synder wrote... >>...there is increasing evidence that the Battle Line was Not in MS 1 at the time of Pearl Harbor. << Then explain all the photos I have of the California during the attack with a nearly black hull and light upper works. I will conceed to you on nearly anything regarding paint schemes, but if it isn't Ms 1, then what in the blue blazes is it. Just be prepared for everyone here who's built up PH BB to scream bloody murder. Ah spam, how the fudge do I fix this $300 resin cagemast "fill in the blank" kit that I spent x months painting to perfection to account for THIS! Yeah, yeah, yeah, as ye shall paint, so shall ye strip, but does anybody know of any 1/xxx scale yardbirds for hire? Dasvidanya! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Leslie Brown" Subject: RAF RESCUE LAUNCHES John Pritchard has written many articles in modelling magazines regarding various RAF launches. Military Modelling, October 1977, included an article on the 'Whaleback' with some colour profiles which could be of help. Regards Les Brown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Erhardtsen" Subject: Independence class and Polish ships Shaya wrote: >> Does anybody know where I can get any of these. 1/700 DML, Rev Ger, Skywave CVL-22 Independence Class << I got 4 from: Brüning Das haus für spiel + freizeit Grosse str. 2 A 24937 Flensburg Germany. Ralph Koziarski wrote: >> I'm looking for some models of Polish Navy ships from WWII and pre-WWII eras. Any scale really, but nothing to huge.<< Some years ago i made Burza in 1/700 (resine) - but as the parts also giv french destroyers, the form is rather worn - but I think, I can still squeeze one ore two models more out of it, if you are interestet. I do also have PZL 11 fighterplanes in 1/700 One of my buildingproject are the Polish liner M.S. CHROBRY - but does someone know, how she was armed, at the time she was lost in Murmansk convoy? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Keith Bender" Subject: Iowa BB 61 Iowa reply, I have built an Iowa in 1:350 from Tamiya, She was in measure 32/1b during 1944. This patern was changed twice in "44". The first was aplyed with one edge of her navy blue blotches even and the other edge brushed and uneven. Then buy June all edges were even, This is the time frame I built my Iowa. By late "44" the port side had a large area around mid-ships filled in all navy blue and a few othe areas were painted navy blue therefore giving her three different versions of 32/1b. She also had many small differances about her compared to the other Iowas. The biggest differance being the bridge and the two level conning tower and lack of quad 40mm on top of turret #2. Look into to this ship before you build her and you will enjoy making her different from her other sisters. KTB -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "FCR" Subject: IJN Destroyer Torpedo rails Hello to all I am just starting one Skywave Hatsuharu WWII japanese destroyer and as all the other japanese destroyers there are torpedo rails on the deck. Now my doubt is in what occasions they use them??? Each fit of torpedo tubes have is own reload structure right behind them and I believe that the rails aren't necessary to made the reload from the reload structure to the torpedo fit. Would they use the rails to load torpedos from one torpedo fit to the other torpedo fit. For example: when the after torpedo fit and is own reload torpedos were all expended they would transfer torpedos from the forward torpedo fit or reload structure to the after torpedo fit. That's what I thought, now can anyone confirm me that. I would like to make one dioram of that kind of operation. Thanks in advance Regards Filipe Ramires filipesnavy@mail.telepac.pt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "Jens H. Brandal" Subject: Accuracy to prototype and Richelieu book John Snyder wrote: >> This will probably drive a lot of modelers a bit crazy, but there is increasing evidence that the Battle Line was NOT in MS 1 at the time of Pearl Harbor. << Really? No kidding? Wellllllll, I think this should highlight the problems of putting too much weight on fidelity to the prototype when judging models in competitions. From what John wrote, I get the impression that MS1 has been considered the appropriate colour scheme sinve before plastic models. Someone paints his model in MS1, and happily carrying it to the competition, and in the meantime "the truth has changed"... OK, last word from me on this matter. On a different note, it is one month until Christmas eve, and I am considering the book about the Richelieu class battleships for stocking filler. Could someone give me the title, author, publisher and the ISBN number, and I'll try and persuade Santa to drop down your funnel? Jens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "James Kloek" Subject: MS 1 OK John, I'll bite. If the battle line wasn't in MS 1 at Pearl Harbor, what were they in? There are several famous photographs taken during the raid. One of them, taken from a Japanese aircraft, shows the whole battle line during the attack. You can see torpedo tracks in the water, and the waves emanating out from the West Virginia, Oklahoma, and California, presumably after torpedo detonations. Its clear that the masts and houses above the funnels on both Nevada and Arizona are much lighter than the rest of the ship. West Virgina and Tennessee are less convincing, but it sure looks like it. There are also two photos of Nevada, one taken as she steamed by Battleship row (you can clearly see the false bow wave of MS 5) and another when she was beached and burning that sure look like she was painted in a dark gray up to the funnel tops and and much lighter color above. So is this a trick question? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Alan Woodward" Subject: Marine Paints Shane I recall some volumes back the topic of paints in marine colours coming up and comments on no one producing them. I'm not sure if anyone else has picked this up, but I have just come across a web site where Badger paints do a MODELflex line in acrylics which looks interesting. The web site is http://www.modelersboatyard.com/Fittings/modleflex.htm Apologies if everyone else already knows about this. Alan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Mike Connelley Subject: 1/700 Fujimi Kittyhawk Howdy: Regarding the new Fujimi 1/700 Kittyhawk, I haven't bought it but I saw it on HLJ. Here's what they said: "Fujimi's all-new tooling of the CV63 Kitty Hawk (selected to be released because CV63 is currently based in Yokosuka, Japan) is, frankly, a major disappointment. Sure, the kit looks like a modern aircraft carrier, if you stand at least a couple meters away. Superstructure and catwalk detail don't even come close to what Pit-Road and Tamiya are releasing these days. Virtually none of the antennas are included, nor are the numerous lifeboat capsules, a distinctive feature of modern warships. And the kit doesn't even include a full compliment of aircraft, providing only F-14, F/A-18 and HH-60s (remaining aircraft, inc. Prowlers, Hawkeye's, etc. to be offered in a seperate set later). All of this would be forgiven if the kit were priced around 2,000 yen, but for this amount of money, you're better off getting the Italeri 1/720 kit. Sure, we're in this business to sell models, but you have to call 'em like you see 'em." I hope this helps. Cheers Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: Iowa Hi Concerning the Iowa, that ship wore measure 22 at her commissioning in Feb 1943 until Jan 1944 where she was repainted in Measure 32 Design 1 B until March 1945, when she was repainted in measure 22 again for the second time. Her bridge may not have received any improvements after commissioning. It greatly resembled the South Dakota. It was modified to resemble the Missouri and Wisconsin in 1945. She never entered dry-dock in 1944 for major upgrades until 1945. I have a question does any one know anything about the small sets of ships called Task forces by Renewal. I recently got a couple it has a Hornet CV-12,CanberraCG-2,Washington BB-56, Barry DD-933, SULLIVANS DD-537, Washington SSBN-598,Rankin KA-103, and Navarro APA-215. Any information be it positive or negative would be appreciated. Sincerely Craig Bennett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "Ralph Koziarski" Subject: gun data I need some detailed drawings/photos of the 75mm Schneider guns, and Vickers' 40mm AA guns. Any sites? happy thanksgiving to all, Ralph -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: Edward Malewitz Subject: Re: 1/350 Cleveland CL Does anyone make a 1/350 model of a Cleveland class CL? My IPMS chapter has been asked to build a set of CA Houston, CL Houston and CL(G) Galveston. The CA is in production. But I can't recall any CL's. Suggestions, anyone? Thanks, Ed Malewitz -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: Henry Blecha Subject: Question about the Yamato's last mission!! Was the Yamato decks painted with some sort of camouflage scheme on her last mission?? A photo taken from overhead with about the aft half of the ship obviously obscured by smoke seems to show that the deck is darkened. Particular when referenced to pictures taken a few years earlier where the decks are a much brighter color (ie wood deck). Or could this just be the smoke obscuring the lighting. Thanks for any help. v/r HBlecha -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: Marc Flake Subject: Internet Hobby Shops In "Credit where credit's due," Fritz Koopman did a classy job of rewarding a few outstanding hobby suppliers with some well-chosen words of praise. I hope to maintain that aura of class while addressing a subject that has begun to bother me regarding Internet hobby shops. The problem is the length of time it takes to ship an order. I understand why they don't stock the stuff they have listed in their on-line catalogs, but I wish they'd give some indication of how long it will take to ship. They should follow the example of the Internet bookstores who list catalog items with information like: "Ships in 2-3 days," or "Ships in 1-2 weeks." Just let us know how long we're going to have to wait. Oh, and another thing, when I make an order, I want it all sent at the same time, not as it is available. Can you give us that option? I'd rather wait a few weeks and save the postage. Otherwise, I'd just order one kit from each manufacturer separately and skip the retailer completely. Marc Flake Tarrant County Texas (where I just got finished having a very bad experience with an Internet hobby shop) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Re: MS 1 NO NO NO I don't believe it. You heretic you. What, when, why how????????? No more goodies for you my boy, until you explain, and IN FULL. Remember, I have the paint sample for the pre war R/N primose! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 30) From: "Morley, James (London)" Subject: USS Iowa Joe Costanzo wrote: >> What changes did USS Iowa recieve in 1944? Also, did she wear ms22 at any point in 1944? << USS Iowa wasn't repainted in Ms 22 until her refit (at Hunters Point??) in Jan 1945 regards James Morley -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk/ for the back issue archive. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume