Subject SMML26/11/99VOL741 Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 00:58:02 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: USS Forrestal help 2: Re: Judges handbook 3: Re: Charles DeGaulle kit 4: Re: Belt sander 5: Polish WW2 Ship Models 6: How about a chain saw? 7: Re: White Metal parts 8: Re: Japanese Torpedo Rails 9: Waveline Maryland 10: Re: Wartime Career 11: More on MS 1 12: H.M.S. Vanguard 13: Vestal 14: Re: Vestal 15: Re: PH Ms XX/xx Decks 16: Pearl Harbor Battle Line colors 17: Iowa again..... 18: 1/400 DETAIL SETS - availability in Australia 19: VCR Alert, UK only!(sorry) 20: Model Shops in Japan 21: Re: RAF ASR Launches 22: Re: Ms 1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: WEM...NEW BOOK, KITS and ETCHED BRASS.. 2: Ex-Gulfstream Kits -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: USS Forrestal help According to Bert Kinzey's excellent Detail & Scale on CV-59, the Revell update, which was released in 1989, was intended to represent the ship in its 1989 configuration. But as he points out, the changes to the kit are not enough to truly do that, although he compliments Revell on doing all that they could in an upgrade. He also discusses what's right & what's missing in the upgrade. Hope this helps, Michael Smith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Judges handbook >> Rusty White's mention of the judging handbook sounds like a decent idea. I wonder whether IPMS USA might consider putting it on the www, given that there is presumably nothing secret involved. It might be useful for everyone (potential judges and entrants) to see how judges do their job. << I think that's a great idea to put the Judges handbook on line for all to down load. Right now it's being rewritten and brought up to date. As soon as that's done, (I have no idea when that will be) I'll push to have it put on line at the IPMS/USA homepage. Also, there are no "secrets" in the handbook or anywhere else I know of. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Charles DeGaulle kit The photos I've seen of this model show virtually no aircraft. If the kits includes only a few a/c that would be a great disappointment. Nothing looks more bland than a super carrier with an empty deck. I know most of the a/c can be bought through WEM but putting fifty or so on the deck would cost a fortune. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Belt sander >> Well, does anyone out there perhaps know of an electric sander I could use on my plastic ship models. << Look in the Micro Mark catalogue. They carry a very nice handheld belt sells for about $65.00 to $75.00 (includes the speed control). I can highly recommend this tool to anyone. I use mine on every model I have ever built. It goes through resin over pour like crazy. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Polish WW2 Ship Models Ralph Koziarski asked: >> I'm looking for some models of Polish Navy ships from WWII and pre-WWII eras. Any scale really, but nothing to huge... I've actually seen a kit by Mirage (i forget what ship it was). It's in 1/400 scale. << Mirage makes two kits each of the destroyers GROM (1938 and 1944 fit) and BLYSKAWICKA (1994 and 1965) with the appropriate modifications, and recently came out with the torpedo boat MAZUR (1935 and 1939 versions). These are nice models, similar in design and assembly to Heller kits. With some photoetched rails and ladders and a little added detail here and there, they'd build up as excellent models. There are also a couple of old 1/400 Polish submarines (ex-British boats) available from another company, but I don't recall the name. Somebody on the list pointed to an outstanding web site about the Polish Navy in WW2, but I misplaced the URL. Mike L Alexandria, VA USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: How about a chain saw? >> Well, does anyone out there perhaps know of an electric sander I could use on my plastic ship models. I'm looking for a belt sander type, but a really slow one (less than 10,000rpm) so it doesn't melt the plastic. I've seen the ones that are offered on the micromark.com web-site and in their catalog, but their a bit pricey. Looking to spend around $50. Anybody have Any ideas? << Why not use a chain saw for removing the plastic spru? Seriously, I would never use any machinery, do everything by hand, that way you wont have any "runaway" problems. Good Luck, Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: White Metal parts >> I have avoided it as long as I can, I must now begin preparation of those metal parts. I have heard of many different ways to prepare these parts but wondered if there was any consensus. To remove seams what works the best? Sand paper, metal files or even grinding with a motor tool? I thought I'd better ask before I ruin something. << Steve, I like to use an assortment of small files, this works best for me. Again I really do not recommend any type of machinery, as it might run away from you and ruin the part. Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "FCR" Subject: Re: Japanese Torpedo Rails Hello all again Chris Langtree wrote: >> I think they're actually mine-laying rails << Well, I have already thought on that but the rails don't go to the end or to the stern of the ship and I believe that they don't throw out the mines by the sides. Or they only carry them for transport mines??? For example: the light cruisers of Sendai, Natori and Kuma classes, fitted for mine-laying, have is own mine rails and they go right to the end of the ship stern. I also believe that I saw a draw of a japanese destroyer that have some kind of small vehicle on the destroyer torpedo rails and it looks like that the vehicle is more appropriate to carry one torpedo instead of a mine. Just my conclusions. Regards Filipe Ramires PORTUGAL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Alan Lindstrom" Subject: Waveline Maryland All of this talk about Pearl Harbor and MS1 reminds me that I had a question about the Waveline Maryland. I was all set to build it as of the Pearl Harbor attack, when after studying photos of the Maryland on or about 12/7/41, I realized that the Maryland had already had its hull bulged by this time, and the Waveline kit does not have the hull bulges. So the kit must be backdated to before the bulges were applied. Anyone know then whis was? Were the bulges added at the same time as the AA upgrades (1.1" and splinter shields)? If so, then the AA upgrades need to be removed too. Since the Pearl battleships didn't lose their pre-war grey until November 1941, it sounds like the Waveline Maryland probably needs to be done in pre-war gray. Alan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Wartime Career That reference to green decks sound as if it could have been the later Semtex (which will be included in our RN Set 2), but the first mention of it seems too early for its use. Perhaps Mr. Vimiera will have an opinion? John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "James Kloek" Subject: More on MS 1 Steve, The photos I was describing are black and white, and I am not going to say that I can tell the difference between dark gray and navy blue on a black and white print. But, the photos do show that Nevada had a false bow wave painted on the bow. So, if Nevada was repainted from dark gray to Navy blue before the attack, would they have repainted the false bow wave? Wouldn't the regulation calling for MS 1 to no longer be used also rule out the false bow wave? Now this next part will be complicated, but the message is that you need to be very careful drawing conclusions from the color prints you have. Here is why. When a print is made on photographic paper from a piece of film, the film is placed in an enlarger, and light is shone through the film onto the paper. This exposes the paper, which is then developed into a print (picture). However, it is rarely that simple. Usually the first time this is done, the print doesn't look right, the colors will be off. The reasons for this are that film and paper have different spectral sensitizations, that is they record different wavelengths (hence slightly different colors) of light, and that the dye sets that produce the colors in the film and the paper are different. So whoever is making the print will place one or more colored filters between the film and the paper to adjust the color balance in the print. Sometimes it takes a couple of tries before the color looks right. But looking right is in the eye of the beholder, or in this case the person making the print. Color balancing a print is a subjective thing. So one question about your prints would be: What color did the person who made the print think the ships should be? Because if that person thought the ships should be blue, he could make gray look blue during printing. Of course the rest of the print would also be too blue in the color balance as well. So really, the only true record of color is in the original negative. Now things are even more complicated in this case, because your prints were made from a piece of movie film. Movies are not like slides. They are first shot on color negative film. To get a film which can be projected on a screen, the negative film is "printed" on to a positive film. (Yep, more color balancing takes place.) Was the movie film from which your prints were made a negative, or a positive? If it could be projected and look normal, it is a positive. If it was, then your prints were made onto photographic paper from this positive image, and that means you are two printing steps (and two color balancing steps) removed from the original negatives. One last thing to consider, negative films are designed to be archival, and tend to have very good image stability. Movie print film is not designed to be archival, and the images are much less permanent. They will fade over time, and this film sounds like it is 50+ years old. Unfortunately, these films rarely fade neutral, that is one of the three color records in the film will fade faster than the others. This means that old images may also be way out of color balance. This is why we hear about old classic movies being "digitally restored". Digital restoration means they are taking an old piece of faded film, scanning it and digitizing it, then digitally restoring the color balance, and finally reprinting back onto a piece of print film. So, be careful with your prints. Look at other things in the picture. Do they look right? If there is an American flag clearly visible for example, how do the reds, whites and blues look? If something like a flag looks good, then the color balance is probably OK. But if something that is supposed to look white or gray isn't, then you've got a problem. This is a lot more fun than IPMS judging. Hi James, Anything is more fun than judging - it's a pain in the arse to judge models. I much prefer to just enter them & let someone else do the hard work ;-)). Shane - taking a very quick break from the Onslow(nearly finished), HMAS Vampire, E Type jag, Tie Intercepter & Blenheim - now handing back to Mistress Lorna. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "philip long" Subject: H.M.S. Vanguard Hello Folks I've just brought a water damaged Hasegawa 1/450 HMS Vanguard at a very good price. It is not a ship I am familiar with and I normally stick to 1/600 scale but I hope to do this big model justice and would welcome any comments on the kit,suitable aftermarket accessories, and most importantly any references for this ship including web sites. Thanks Phil Long England -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Mike C" Subject: Vestal To answer Rob's question, the USS VESTAL (AR4) kit that I'm working on is as she appeared at the Pearl Harbor attack. She and her sister ship, PROMETHEUS (AR3), were repair ships converted from WW I vintage colliers. The Captain of the VESTAL at the time of the PH attack was Cassin Young. He was blown overboard when ARIZONA exploded, swam back to his ship and managed to beach her before she was lost due to hits from bombs intended for ARIZONA. Cassin Young earned the Medal of Honor for his actions that day. He was later killed while in command of USS SAN FRANCISCO off Guadalcanal. As some of you may know, I do this alone and in my spare time. I also have a "day" job so I don't have complete control of release schedules. I am currently working on casting the CHICAGO. About half the molds are done for the VESTAL, but I haven't started the instructions yet. Casting for VESTAL won't start until I have enough of a supply of the CHICAGOs done to be able to fill orders without delay- I don't have enough room to work two series of molds at the same time. Please be patient. The VESTAL is definitely on the way and will be released in due time. I think it will be worth the wait. Mike Czibovic Corsair Armada Productions -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Alan Simon Subject: Re: Vestal USS Vestal (AR4) was a repair ship, commissioned c.1908. On 7 Dec 41 she was moored parallel to and outboard of USS Arizona (BB39) with her stern across from Arizona's forecastle. Having suffered two direct 800-kg bomb hits (starboard side forward and port side aft, she was freed from the doomed battleship and beached off Aiea Landing to "fight" another day. There have been some recent SMML posts which discussed Vestal's mission in preparation for planned 1942 upgrades for Arizona. For further info consult Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships and Jane's Fighting Ships (WWII or earlier edition), often available in well-stocked public libraries. Alan Simon former Officer, USS Grand Canyon (AD/AR28) Atlanta, GA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Steven P. Allen" Subject: Re: PH Ms XX/xx Decks So, what color are the horizontal surfaces (he asked as he contemplated repainting his Arizona). Steve Allen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Mike Connelley Subject: Pearl Harbor Battle Line colors Howdy: While I don't know much about ships colors, I thought I'd toss an idea into the ring. The photos and film I've seen shows the battle line in a dark gray with light (possibly white) tops. So far as I know the hull colors was supposed to be ocean gray. According to the Snyder & Short colors chips I recently bought (and I didn't know this before) the early 1941 ocean gray was kind of a charcoal type gray, almost like RLM 66. The late 1941 ocean gray was lighter and bluer, and is the color I painted my 1/426 Arizona. In a way I'm personally hoping I'm hoping I painted my Arizona right even if by accident. I idea which I propose is that this bluer color is the later 1941 ocean gray, where as the darker gray (such as that worn by the Nevada) was the early 1941 ocean gray. Naturally I haven't seen this newly discovered footage, and I only propose this idea for others' consideration. Cheers Mike (yet another Yamatoholic) Connelley Oh no, not another one ;-þ Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Morley, James (London)" Subject: Iowa again..... >> IOWA's Ms.32/1d: my partner Randy Short states that she didn't use Navy Blue (5-N) in that scheme, but rather that the colors were Light Gray (5-L) and Dull Black. (Incidentally, somewhere in the dim past some author had a typo that called this "Bull Black"; Dull Black is the correct appelation.) << I made a reference to "Bull Black" in error as this is misprinted in EITHER Sumralls book, or in the Toms conversion set (I can't remember which, and my apologies to the one that got it right). I have only seen B&W pictures for the first half of 1944, when Iowa's camoflage had feathered edges. The dark pattern looks VERY dark (and I agree could be black). But colour photos taken after the edges were straightened in the summer of 1944 clearly show that at that point at least, the dark colour was 5N - Navy Blue. Regards James Morley (with a certain amount of trepidation at contradicting the paint guys!!) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "fwliedel" Subject: 1/400 DETAIL SETS - availability in Australia Does anybody know where in Australia you can get 1/400 detail set from. As no shop I have found [and I think I know them all] in Brisbane seems to carry any of them . Any help would be most appreciated. FRED LIEDEL Hi, Fred It's possible that Earl Martell of NKR might have some. The website is at: http://www.ballarat.net.au/nkrmodels Also, try Jeff Isles at Justplanes, he gets Flagship sets in, so may be able to help out. He's also a good APMA member, as well ;-)). http://www.justplanes.com.au Lorna -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Les Pickstock Subject: VCR Alert, UK only!(sorry) Saturday 27th Nov BBC2 at 12.00 noon "In Which We Serve" Noel Coward's tribute to Mountbattern and HMS KELLY. also for those who like that sort of thing Channel 4 21.00 "The Flight of the Pheonix" Les Pickstock. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Model Shops in Japan Hello All, I travel quite a bit and will be in Japan soon. I will be visiting the Shinjuku area of Tokyo and would like to know if there are any good hobby shops in the area and what the best way to get there would be. I will be staying in the Century Hyatt which is next to the Tokyo city government building and west of the Shinjuku Railway Station. Any assistance would be most welcome. If there are any listmembers in that area, I would be most interested in meeting them while I am there. Best regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: geoff-smith@cwcom.net Subject: Re: RAF ASR Launches Just a word of thanks to Martin, Robert, Les and Al for the help on RAF boats. It's great to ask a question and get answers from all round the world. Especially when it's not the most discussed subject. Regards, Geoff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Re: Ms 1 John (Sheridan) said... >> You could always leave it the way you originally painted it. Of course, it will be painted incorrectly and you will probally go insane knowing this... << Ah, but the only PH era BB I have is the Arizona, and thanks to my procrastination streak, I haven't started work on it yet (ie, WHEW!) Of course, had I already aquired a 41 California and commenced work...can we say Krakatoa )! Then again..not long ago I saw a place on the web offering a complete (built, painted, mounted, etc) 1:192 Arizona model that they raved about the accuracy of. At $6,500, it'd better be accurate (you only thought the resin kits we gawk at were expensive). Okay, well, it's pretty, but it's definitely not wearing a Ms 1 scheme - or any other official scheme that I can recognize. Check it out at: http://www.fineartmodels.com/arizona.htm John (Snyder) said... >> I've done a lot of professional research and writing on the use of historic photos as an aid to paint analysis, so I'm aware of the hazards thereof. << For those of us who are uneducated in these regards, would ya mind explaining this. Yeah, there's the obvious problem here in that 5-N could be mistaken for 5-D. I've also read about the problems associated with B&W photos taken with orthochromatic and panchromatic films back in the 20-30s. I sure as Burma Shave can't argue with your logic about Ms 1 having been discontinued before the Battle Force was repainted. Of course, this raises two questions in my mind about all of this. If not Ms 1, then what measure were the ships painted in? There's bound to have been some designation for this variation. Stupid Question, I admit (and no offense intended), but why has it taken so long for this to come to light? Okay, the film was only recently discovered, but how many interviews have been conducted in the last 50-plus years with the survivors of the attack? Okay, I admit, the color a ship was painted probably isn't near the top of a historian's list of things to ask. Still, I would've thought someone would've broached the subject by now. That, or maybe one of the survivors might've said something in one of their recollections about the ship being blue rather than gray. Let me repeat, I mean no offense by this. I have nothing but praise and respect for the work you guys are doing. It just surprises me that as heavily researched as Pearl Harbor has been, this didn't come out 10-20 years ago. Dasvidanya! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar2@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: WEM...NEW BOOK, KITS and ETCHED BRASS.. Hi Guys and Gals, Just arrived today: Conway Maritime Modeller's Series Battleship Scharnhorst, Koopand Schmolke at 7.99 pounds ($12.78) this is the English language version of the Vom Original Zum Modell book. s/b, 64pp, stuffed with pix of both the ship and the builders model, (First price in Pounds, second price in US Dollars.. approximate conversion) We have the new Tamiya 1/700 Ohsumi at 15.31 ($25.00), and also just arrived, the WEM PE 616 1/600 HMS AJAX , for the Airfix kit at 10.17 ($16.72) Peter's instructions are almost (!!) as good as Dave's kit instructions on this one... a splendid job Mr Hall! The new 1/700 Type 42 destroyer brass is here, which was also designed by Peter. This set retails at 8.08 ($12.95), and will fit one "stretched" such as HMS Manchester or York AND one "standard" Type 42 destroyer, such as HMS Exeter or HMS Sheffield. Designed to fit all those Skywave/Shanghai Dragon/Revell kits. With the new line-up as follows for 1/600 Scale, PE 617 1/600 HMS AJAX for the Airfix kit PE 618 1/600 GERMAN WARSHIP for Airfix 1/600 and Revell 1/570 kits PE 619 1/600 HMS KING GEORGE V for the Airfix kit PE 620 1/600 HMS REPULSE for the Airfix kit NEW!! PE 621 1/600 RMS QUEEN ELIZABETH for Year 2000 includes Troopship options. You may be glad to know that the Repulse fittings will be available before the KGV and German Warship set in this scale.... NEXT! For anyone interested in modern submarines, Peter Hall's been patterning the 1/350 HMS Trenchant (you know, the nuclear boat with the pretty camouflage scheme?), he now approaches completion. It has a photoetched brass detail set, and should be available at the end of January or earlier, although we're unsure about the final price. NEXT! Re the Algerine vs. Bangor vs. Flower in 1/700, for Brian Fawcett's warm-up project, the Flower's out.. sorry guys...tho this will eventually be covered.. and we're just tallying up on either the Algerine or the Bangor. Will let you know the results. And yes, a 1/700 Black Swan IS on the cards but it's bigger than the size of project we had in mind for this "starter" subject... to give you an idea of Brian's level of working detail, the PT-109 in 1/700 Scale (full hull!) incorporated 133 different parts in the master pattern! Brian is also making good progress, and has given up smoking (congrats. from everyone here!). He reckons that by the New Year he could be up and running again. Various other small projects we have thrown at Brian in the meantime are the 1/600 aircraft, which Peter will, of course, design the PE sets for (he didn't know that by the way.. he does now!). Also, available in about 3 weeks: PE 3516 1/350 *EXTRAFINE* 3-BAR RAILS and LADDERS 11.08 ($17.73), measures 8 x 6 inches (20cnm x 15.5cm) PE 4001 1/400 *EXTRAFINE* 3-BAR RAILS and LADDERS 11.08 ($17.73). DETAILS ON THE NEW EXTRAFINE RAILS SET (VERY fine indeed!) ARE AS FOLLOWS: 3-BAR RAILS almost 5 Thousand Scale Feet in 4 Styles (INC. STANDARD, CURVED AND CLOSE-STANCHIONED FOR BENDS), 2-BAR RAILS 350 scale feet in 3 styles, Vertical Ladders, Inclined Ladders and Awning Supports. Also, PE 3517 1/350 KONIG/GROSSER KURFURST for ICM kits NEW for YEAR 2000.. Konig kit should be here in January and PE 3518 1/350 Imperial Japanese Navy DOORS and HATCHES NEW 4.67 ($7.47) for the New Year. These sets are superb value for money, utilising the latest in pixel-perfect design technology from Peter Hall's computer. Thanks, From The WEM bunch -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: ironship@usit.net (Jon Warneke) Subject: Ex-Gulfstream Kits Hi Everyone, >> I've seen listings for a Gulfstream 1:350 Houston, but Gulfstream is no more. Recently I've heard conflicting reports as to who now owns the former Gulfstream patterns/molds for both their Cleveland and Atlanta cl kits. An article on the Warships review of the kit said Classic Warships aquired them, but someone else recently said Iron Shipwrights now had them. Maybe we can get some clarification here on the list. << OK, I should be able to set this straight since I'm one of the principles in this. Commander Series Models/Iron Shipwrights no longer produces these kits, and has no rights concerning these kits. The patterns were sold to Classic Warships in 1997, and CW has sole possession and rights to them. This is inclusive of ALL Gulfstream kits and patterns. Commander Series Models is no longer supporting kits sold prior to this sale, and any requests for replacements need to be made to Classic Warships, the owner of these patterns. Finally, in response to numerous calls over the past few months, Commander Series Models does not have any remaining stocks of these kits, and all requests for the former Gulfstream kits need to be made to Classic Warships. Thanks. Jon Warneke Commander Series Models, Inc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk/ for the back issue archive. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume