Subject: SMML27/11/99VOL742 Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 01:26:02 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Scout Planes 2: Vestal as Prometheus? 3: Modeling Running, Signal & Search Light Lenses 4: USS Northampton CA-26 How did she look with TF 16 5: Resin Kits; engineering there of 6: Hobby Shop in Shinjuku 7: Where is "Ark Royal" site? 8: Re: 1/350 Fletcher decals 9: Re: PH, MS1, and all color issues 10: Japanese destroyer rails 11: HMS Vanguard 12: Waveline Maryland 13: Ms 1 at Pearl Harbor 14: Missouri at 1945 15: Re: RAF boats 16: Re: Ms1 17: Re: More on Ms. 1? 18: Re: Charles de Gaulle kit 19: Re: Waveline Maryland 20: Re: Pearl Harbor Battle Line Colors 21: Iowa again 22: More on Pearl Colors 23: Re: Charles DeGaulle Carrier Aircraft 24: Japanese Torpedo Rails 25: 1/700 California 26: More on Ms 1 27: USN measures in WWII -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: BOOKS ARRIVED and SMMLLIE SPECIALS! 2: Re: Model Expo Sale -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Robert Weilacher Subject: Scout Planes Can anyone tell me if the PB4 Y-2 Privateer and/or the Grumman Albatross were used in the Pacific War (WWII)? If so, were they late war scouts to replace the Catalina? Rob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Christopher Crofoot Subject: Vestal as Prometheus? Mike C, How close of sisters were Vestal and Prometheus? I'd love to build her as Prometheus since my grandfather served aboard her during WWI and post WWI. Thanks Chris -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Alan Simon Subject: Modeling Running, Signal & Search Light Lenses Completing 1/125 Lindberg Blue Devil Destroyer. Need help. Painting port/starboard running light lenses with basecoat bright silver, finishing with Super Kristal Kleer tinted red/green; white running lights with untinted Super Kristal Kleer. What about signal and search lights? Use same technique as for running light lenses or undercoat black with gloss coat? Thanks for suggestions and any better ideas for this scale. Alan Simon Atlanta, Georgia -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: RLapadura@aol.com Subject: USS Northampton CA-26 How did she look with TF 16 Subject said it all. I'm working on the BWN 1/350 Northampton, which depicts her in Aug '41, but would prefer to show her as she appeared in Apr. '42 while she was escorting the Hornet during the Doolittle raid. Questions are: 1) Was there substantial differences made to her between 8/41 and 4/42? 2) I know she was in Ms.5 in 8/41, and was repainted Ms.21 sometime later. When? Was she Ms.21 in 4/42? 3) Ms.21 calls for Navy Blue (5-N) vertical surfaces and Weather Deck Blue on horizontal, would this have applied to the teak decking? Any info would be gratefully, welcomed Thanks in advance, Bob LaPadura Pres-New Jersey IPMS (Who are NJIPMS, come visit us at"http://www.njipms.org") -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "lcp9" Subject: Resin Kits; engineering there of I'm getting ready to do additional kits for the Loose Cannon Productions line and would welcome your opinions about a few things. Please reply to the lcp address above, (unless ,of course, Mistress Lorna you would like to see it here on SMML): 1) I read with interest the fellow SMMLers' preferance for empty main decks with seperatly cast hatches and other details. The writer stated that he would like to be able to install some of them in the open position. I almost did the 20 some tank hatches on the T-2 this way . In the end I decided the extra work it would mean for the modeler in cleaning & installing them out weighed the trouble of painting around them. 2). Now about Photo Etch. What's YOUR preferance? cranes & towers ect. that you fold up or solid relief castings in resin? What about railings? How many of you out there actually use them? 20 MM Cannon & other light weapons? I did PE ones for the first kit, but thought they looked too flat & 2 dimensional (even after I built them up with super glue & paint) so I started including cast ones instead. 3). Lastly, what subject(s) would you all like to see next? Thanks for the input, David Angelo Hi David, Well, I'll be the first to weigh into this subject. I would like to see a 1/700 model of the HMS Furious (1918) version. Only ship I've ever wanted to build really. Mistress Lorna -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Mitsuaki Kubota Subject: Hobby Shop in Shinjuku Dear Mr. Fowler There is good hobby shop in Shinjuku. The shop is named after Beatles song "Yellow Submarine". Their address is as follows Akodo Building 5F 2-12-4 Shinjuku Shinjuku-ku, Tokyo106-0022 Walk on Yasukuni-dori avenue to east, turn right at Shinjuku 5 east, walk about 200m and you can see "Japan Rent-A Car" on the left side. "Yellow submarine" is at 5F of the building. They have web site (http://yellowsubmarine.co.jp), but English page not yet uploaded. Another good hobby shop is "Leonard" at Akihabara. They sell many many pre-owned kits, but too much expensive. There address is Mikurabashi Building 1,2F 4-1 Kanda-Sakuma-chou, Vhiyoda-ku, Tokyo 101-0025 Happy traveling, Mitsuaki Kubota -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Mitsuaki Kubota Subject: Where is "Ark Royal" site? Hello, everyone. I can't connect "HMS Ark Royal" site: http://www.inquest.demon.co.uk/royal/index.html Did they moved other host computer? Or closed? If anyone knows information about them, please teach me. Best regards, Mitsuaki Kubota -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: 1/350 Fletcher decals Duane Fowler sent me a set of his 1/350 Fletcher DD anti skid walkways for review in The Journal. I started to apply the decals and I noticed either the instructions weren't sent or I lost them (I probably lost them). I notified Duane via email and he sent me back (vis email) a full set of instructions the next day. So far they look pretty impressive and really break up the deck pattern. I'll be certain to mention the great service in my review as well. I think good service should be mentioned whenever it occurs. Isn't the Internet great? Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: PH, MS1, and all color issues Taking last things first, NO ONE should have any trepidation about taking issue with The Paint Guys when it comes to interpreting photos. It's not a precise science, and it happens that Randy and I are in disagreement on the Dark Gray (5-D) vs. Navy Blue (5-N) Pearl Harbor Battle Line issue. Incidentally, Ships-2 called for the use of Dark Gray (5-D), not 1941 Ocean Gray (5-O) for Ms.1. Anyway, I've been wrong before on photo interpretation, and undoubtedly will be again. What you can count on is the accuracy of our paint chips, since they're based on actual samples or archival sources like the 1929 Munsell Book of Color. Tell ya what, folks. On the issue of the Pearl Harbor BBs: I'm scheduled to be in Washington, D.C. in January at a professional conference. If (and that's the operative word here) I can steal some time away, I'll make the effort to get to the National Archives and check out the War Diary, Deck Log, and Captain's Log for NEVADA and CALIFORNIA for the period in question and see if there's any specific mention of camouflage measures and colors used. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Japanese destroyer rails Hi Filipe It might be that the vehicle you saw was for transporting torpeodes around on the mine-laying rails making them dual purpose. The rails are in the right position for laying mines and it would be a simple job to add more to the stern if indeed the Japanese used stern loading. They're also just too extensive to my mind to be mainly torpedo rails and the Wakatake class also carried rails (but no torpedo reloads). It's an interesting question. Chris -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: HMS Vanguard Hi Philip Raven and Roberts, British Battleships of World War Two has excellent detailed plans and lots of photos. I seem to recall that there has been some discussion of this kit in previous volumes. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: Waveline Maryland According to Friedman, the limited blistering program for the "Big Five" was approved Oct. 4, 1940, with three months per ships expected. Maryland was the only one to complete before PH (on Aug. 1, 1941). Colorado completed Feb. 26, 1942. The other three ships didn't receive this refit. The Maryland's beam was increased to 108' - the much more extensive refits on the others later later in the war included a 113-114' beam. F at pp. 543-355 indicates that Maryland had the new weapons (presumably 1.1"s) on Dec. 7. The book is unclear whether any of the PH ships other than WV had the 5in/25 shields on Dec. 7, although M certainly had them shortly afterwards. The blister was essentially flat on top, and there is a profile drawing showing it in Friedman - it'd be easy to replicate in sheet styrene, I'd think - I've done it with Saratoga's much larger hull blister on the Fujimi kit. Drop me a line if I can help. Michael Smith Marshall, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: Ms 1 at Pearl Harbor I just watched the beginning of tape #4 of the Discovery Channel's "Carriers" series, which two or three minutes of color footage of salvage operations on the battle line (Arizona and West Virginia or California are clearly shown) followed by a color shot of Enterprise at anchor that I think was taken in May 1942 because it looks a lot like the extensive still photos of the ship at that time. Now that the issue is raised, the "dark gray" parts of the battleships look more blue than dark gray, and the color is similar to Enterprise. More importantly, the small boats around them match, and regardless of what the big ships were, I would expect that by May-ish '42 small craft would be Navy Blue. This may be the same footage that is being referred to, and this is not exactly a great version of it, but at least the issue is now out there. My question is this - why were they using Navy Blue in place of Dark Gray in Measure 1? Why change the color but not the measure? And does this mean that Measure 1 really didn't ever use Dark Gray, or just that latecomers to it changed the basic color unofficially? For example, what would Lexington and Enterprise have been in on December 7. Clearly Measure 1, but what was the main color? Does anyone know if the deck logs gave the measures and paints used when the ships repainted? Has anyone ever used this source to verify camouflage information? Michael Smith Marshall, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Norman C. Samish" Subject: Missouri at 1945 I noticed at http://www.fineartmodels.com/missouri.htm that the $7,500 model of the Missouri in 1945 configuration is shown with aircraft with insignia on both sides of the upper wings. I thought all military aircraft at that time had insignia on upper left and lower right only. Am I mistaken? And is the all-gray paint scheme accurate? Thanks, Norm Samish -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: MGross1352@aol.com Subject: Re: RAF boats Regarding R.A.F. rescue boats and their colors, believe it or not there is a series of books on the topic by Geoff Pilborough. There are at least 4 volumes; the first 3 on the R.A.F. boats and the fourth covering commonwealth boats. I have volumes 1,2, and 4 and the first 2 contain well done color plates. I believe the books were written in the early to mid 90s and the publisher was Canimpex of London. The books are soft covered and bound with spiral plastic. I got mine from Maritime books in the U.K. The books are well illustrated and very well done. From Mark Grossman in East Brunswick, New Jersey (where everyone has leftover turkey for dinner tonight and where long distance violence will soon commence if there is anymore IPMS judging bashing [I'm not a member, I don't really care, but I remind all my compatriots that "enough is enough"]). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: Ms1 Derek, I personally believe that Navy Blue was a direct substitute for the Dark Gray, and that the ships were possibly painted in Ms. 1, using Navy Blue, with Light Gray (in the blue's) substituted for the neutral "Light Gray", on the upper works as prescribed in the Ms 1 camo. applications. Any other characteristics, such as the Ms. 5-False Bow Wave, could still have been used. I think we all need to remember that at this time there was a lot of experimenting taking place, and I have found a lot of inconsistencies in my research in photos of ships at the National Archives. I think that the color photos I have say it all. Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: More on Ms. 1? James, Way ahead of you on this one! The color movie footage is the same "colors" as the prints, and there is an American flag in one of the pictures. All of this information does "jive" with the information that Mr. Snyder has been bringing to light. Another thing that I have discovered in my research for our books is that there are so many variables to the "rules", that I have found there is no way to say anything definitive without good pictures to back up a statement. I have found many "diversions" from the prescribed camo. sheet to what was actually painted on a particular ship. The person who made these prints does know what he is doing, and is very good at it, which is why he is reliable. To say any thing about the colors in use at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack, you really should have color pictures. Again, I do have the COLOR PICTURES. I do know a little about film, color, etc., and am not one to jump to conclusions. I was very skeptical when I first heard about this information, and was very careful upon examining the prints. If you look at my books, the Warship Pictorial series, you would know that I strive for, and have achieved some of the best photo reproduction in the business. We will be reproducing some WWII color pictures in upcoming publications, so look for those. We have a method for restoring color, or correcting the color shifts that are commonly found in a great number of these historic photos. I am currently gathering up a large number of color pictures from WWII to put together a book on the naval conflict during this war. Seeing BLUE, Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Allan and Crystal Plumb Subject: Re: Charles de Gaulle kit Rusty White said: >> The photos I've seen of this model show virtually no aircraft. If the kits includes only a few a/c that would be a great disappointment. Nothing looks more bland than a super carrier with an empty deck. I know most of the a/c can be bought through WEM but putting fifty or so on the deck would cost a fortune. << The kit comes with 12 Rafale-M, 8 Super Etendard, 2 E2C, and 2 Panther/Dauphin helos. Since the illustrious Mr. Baker's latest opus says "35-40 aircraft" including helicopters, that seems like a reasonable amount. (Hanger will hold "23 aircraft and 2 helicopters", BTW.) Fifty would be Right Out. This may be super compared to Clemenceau and Foch, but Nimitz it ain't. Now if only Airfix would do Ocean... Allan Plumb -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Re: Waveline Maryland Alan... Per Friedman's US BATTLESHIPS, Maryland was scheduled for refit between 17 Feb 41 thru 20 May 41, but wasn't completed until 1 Aug 41. As far as the blisters are concerned, we're not talking a pair of canal-corks like the California picked up. These are described as being modest and were installed to sustain armored freeboard (since earlier mods had made the ship dangerously top heavy) rather than to improve underwater protection. That said, sounds like it would be easier to scratch out a couple of blisters than to retro the ship back to early 41. Dasvidanya! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar2@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Re: Pearl Harbor Battle Line Colors Mike C... In regards to your Arizona color scheme... Well, before the burma shave hit the fan, it was believed the Battle Force was wearing Ms 1. According to Myron Smith's Golden State Battlewagon book... "Measure One Camouflage System: All vertical surfaces from top of boot-tooping to tops of funnels were painted dark gray (5-D) (this is not ocean gray [5-0]). All vertical surface above tops of stacks were painted light gray (5-L). All horizontal surfaces (except wood decking -- which was left natural) were painted dark gray (5-D). A book I had out from the library, "The way it was: Pearl Harbor" showed a pic of the Arizona moments before the fatal explosion. It was a very blurry pic, but you could still make out the characteristics of the Ms 1 paint scheme. There are pics of a wonderfully built up 1:350 West Virginia in one of the galleries at the Warships site. That's the best example I can think of right now to illustrate the Ms 1 color scheme. That said though -- from the sounds of it there may be proof that all references to 5-D should be 5-N. FWIW though, I wouldn't lift a paint brush until the smoke clears on this one. Dasvidanya! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar2@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Keith Bender" Subject: Iowa again The Iowa, I have a nice color photo of her right here in front of me that shows her from the stb. quarter deck on June 13th 1944 and she is navy blue and could be haze grey or the light grey but deffinetly navy blue!!! I painted my model with navy blue and light grey. Also the 16" gun barrels are deck blue!. This photo is in the Sumrall book Data #3. Yes I know there will be all kinds of answeres to this and lots of complaints that I don't know what I'm talking about, I don't give a rats behind, This is how I painted my Iowa and she has cleaned house real good at alot of the model contest and I mean alot! OH, before I forget, the flesh tones on the crew in this photo are very good too. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Ralph Koziarski" Subject: More on Pearl Colors Navy blue? MS1? Navy Blue? MS1? I dont know anymore, and I dont want to screw up the Arizona I just bought. So to maybe help settle this for all of us. I'm attempting to contact some Pearl Harbor survivors. They have their own sites online. Anyways, maybe we could finally get a bright light in this very dark tunnel. :) RK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: mprager@juno.com Subject: Re: Charles DeGaulle Carrier Aircraft According to a kit review in the latest Fine Scale Modeler, the Humbrol/Heller CHARLES DEGAULLE kit comes with 12 Rafale, 8 Super Etendards, 2 Hawkeyes, 2 helicopters, and several "yellow gear" vehicles. Matt Prager -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: Ross Mac Donald Subject: Japanese Torpedo Rails The Rails are for loading torpedoes onto the ship. There is a carriage designed for the torpedoes onto which they are loaded, then it is wheeled in place underneath the girder structures that go from the ships side over the reload storage spaces. These structures are in fact gantries which then lift the torpedoes from the carriages and place them in their storage spaces. If you want to model IJN ships you can't go past the Random Japanese Warship Details - 1&2 books from Tamiya - the text is Japanese, but after many hours of wonderful study you get answers such as above from the pictures. I wish they would do English versions - there appears to be a wealth of info in the text. Soooo cheap, too. HLJ sells them for 600 yen each. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: 1/700 California All this talk (and looking around at books) about the PH Battle Force jogged my memory. A few years back I saw an ad for 1/700 cagemast California, that I believe was put out by JS Productions. Since JS isn't doing ships anymore have there been any rumors/discussion about this kit being picked up by one of the other firms? Dasvidanya! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar2@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: More on Ms 1 I should've noticed this earlier, but after reading Jim Kloek's post about the Nevada's bow wave I suddenly remembered something. This goes back to the book "The way it was: Pearl Harbor" I mentioned in my comment to Mike C. On page 14 there's three dated photos... 1) California at 1010 dock in Ms 1, dated Aug 41. This would be about the time she received her CXAM radar set, so maybe she was repainted before the other ships. This is also just about a month before Ms 1 was phased out/replaced/whatever. 2) Oklahoma and Nevada along Ford Island, both in Ms 1 with Ms 5 false bow waves - dated 3 Nov 41. 3) Utah at Mare Island in Aug 41 being painted into Ms 1. I've read comments about the questionable issue of dated photos, but if these are anywhere near accurate, there might be a chance the Battle Force was painted into Ms 1 prior to the measure being phased out. Dasvidanya! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar2@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: "Jean-Paul Binot" Subject: USN measures in WWII Hi all, The "revelations" about the true colours of the Battle Fleet at Pearl Harbor have left me totally confused. I had found in the Ship Modeller FAQ the following contribution by Jon Warneke (question 46). Do we all agree on that, and does it help in the debate? (I am told that Pennsylvania was painted in Navy Blue (i.e. Ms 21) prior to leaving Pearl Harbor in late Dec 41, but Ms21 was not introduced officially at that time, according to the FAQ... Any opinion? Jean-Paul Binot FROM THE Ship Modeller's FAQ: Question 46. The following section is contributed by Jon Warneke: USN Camouflage Measures The U.S. Navy of WWII developed numerous camouflage measures for its ships. These were numbered from 1 to 33. These measures were contained in a manual known as SHIPS-2, distributed by the Bureau of Construction and Repair (BuC&R), USN. * SHIPS-2 was first distributed in January 1941, containing Measures 1 through 9. The colors used for these measures are as follows: Light Grey 5-L (replaced Standard Navy Grey of the prewar period) Ocean Grey 5-O Dark Grey 5-D Black #82 White 5-U All of these colors were mixed from base colors of white and black, forming grays of varying hues. The measures which used these colors are as follows: Measure (Ms) 1: Dark Grey System. All vertical surfaces Dark Grey 5-D below the funnel tops, Light Grey 5-L above the funnel tops. Ms 2: Graded System. All superstructure parts 5-L, hull graded with 5-L the top band, 5-O the middle band, and 5-d on the bottom band. Each band is to be of equal width. Ms 3: Light Grey System. All vertical surfaces Light Grey 5-L. Ms 4: Black System. All vertical surfaces Black #82. Ms 5: Painted Bow Wave. To be used with Ms. 1, 2 or 3, but not Ms. 4. Upper edge of the wave is to be painted in 5-U, and the body of the wave in either dark blue or 5-D Ms. 6 through 8 were to use paint to made a ship look like another (i.e. a Omaha-class CL look like a four stack DD) with the color of the deception to be the opposite of the general color of the ship (i.e. the ship painted in 5-D would use 5-L for the deception). Ms 9: Black System for Subs. Paint the entire area above the waterline black. * SHIPS-2 was revised in September 1941 after testing found that blues were more effective in camouflage than were the grays of the Jan. 1941 edition. The new colors were as follows: Haze Grey 5-H Ocean Grey 5-O (not the same as above) Sea Blue 5-S Deck Blue 20-B Black #82 White 5-U The colors were mixed from 5-U and tinting material known as 5-TM (Author's note: I am unaware of any references available to the modeler of the actual tint of either 5-TM or 20-TM, which was used for making Deck Blue). The measures which were authorized under the Sept. 1941 edition are as follows: Ms 1 through 8: Discontinued Ms 9: Same as above Ms 11: Sea Blue System. All vertical surfaces Sea Blue 5-S Ms 12: Graded System. Paint hull 5-S to the level of the main deck (Carriers to the level of the hangar deck). Paint superstructure to the tops of the funnels Ocean Grey 5-O. Above the funnels Haze Grey 5-H. Ms 13: Haze Grey System. All vertical surfaces Haze Grey 5-H. Ms 14: Ocean Grey System. All vertical surfaces Ocean Grey 5-O. In all measures except Ms. 9, the decks were to be painted in Deck Blue 20-B. * In June, 1942, SHIPS-2 was again revised, and new colors were introduced, using the same ingredients as the Sept 1941 edition. The colors authorized were: Thayer Blue 5-B Haze Grey 5-H (not the same tint as above) Ocean Grey 5-O (not the same tint as above) Navy Blue 5-N Deck Blue 20-B Black #82 White 5-U The measures authorized under this edition are as follows: Ms 9: Black System for Subs. Same as above Ms 10: Gray System for Subs. Paint all surfaces above waterline 5-O Ms 11 and 12: Discontinued Ms 13: Haze Grey System. Same as above Ms 14: Ocean Grey System. Same as above Ms 16: Thayer System. For use in arctic regions. All vertical surfaces White 5-U with patterns of Thayer Blue 5-B. Ms 21: Navy Blue System. Paint all vertical surfaces Navy Blue 5-N. Ms 22: Graded System. 5-N from the waterline to an imaginary line parallel to the waterline which runs through the deepest part of the main deck, 5-O from this point up. * In March, 1943, SHIPS-2 was again revised, and new colors were introduced again. The colors authorized were: Pale Gray 5-P FS 35526 Light Gray 5-L FS 36320 Haze Gray 5-H FS 35237 Ocean Gray 5-O FS 35164 Navy Blue 5-N FS 35044 Deck Blue 20-B FS 35042 Dull Black BK FS 37040 (The FS numbers are estimates based on the author's comparison of color chips to FS chips. The new Floquil Marine colors provide the builder with accurate representations of these colors.) The Measures which used these colors are as follows: Ms 21: Navy Blue System. Same as above Ms 22: Graded System. Same as above Ms 23: Light Grey System. Paint all vertical surfaces light grey, and paint the undersides of all overhangs White 5-U. Ms 31: Dark Pattern System. Paint all vertical surfaces with patterns of 5-H, 5-O, and BK. Ms 31a: Dark Pattern System. Same as Ms. 31, except that 5-N replaces BK. 2 color schemes used 5-H and 5-N 3 color schemes used 5-H, 5-O, and 5-N Ms 32: Medium Pattern System. Paint all vertical surfaces with patterns of: 2 color schemes used 5-L and BK 3 color schemes used 5-L, 5-O, and BK Ms 33: Light Pattern System. Paint all vertical surfaces with patterns of: 2 color schemes used 5-L and 5-O 3 color schemes used 5-P, 5-H, and 5-N Measures 31, 31a, 32, and 33 were used with various geometric patterns that were assigned design numbers reflecting the pattern and what type of ship they were created for. Thus "Measure 32/18d" would use the colors of Measure 32, be geometric design number 18, and have been designed for a destroyer ("d"). Decks were to be painted in 20-B, but many Ms. 31 and 32 designs also had patterns of 20-B and 5-O on the decks. Also authorized under this edition were green colors for use on ships. These colors corresponded with the blue colors and were: Pale Green 5-PG Haze Green 5-HG Ocean Green 5-OG Navy Green 5-NG Deck Green 20-G These colors can also be found in the Floquil Line of Marine Paints. The greens were interchangeable with the blues in the measures, but were mostly used on amphibious force units and coastal forces. * Upon the end of the war, most of the dazzle measures were discontinued, and those ships were repainted in Ms. 13. Other ships in Ms. 21 and Ms. 22 remained in those measures until about 1947 or 1948 when they were also repainted in Ms. 13. *NEW* NOTE: The Floquil line of Marine Paints has now been discontinued! {John O. Kopf} I cannot give you FS numbers (The colors were of a type that don't fit the FS well) but I can give you some info. Deck Blue 20-B Stain is of the same color as Deck Blue 21-B -- Well Matched by Humbrol's #79 Blue-Grey or available in Floquil's new Military series. Navy Blue 5-N, Ocean Gray 5-O, and Haze Gray 5-H are all available in Floquil's series, or can be mixed. I've used the mixes I got from a Scale Models series, which are given here with new Humbol designators. * Navy Blue: 2 Parts #104 Oxford Blue to 1 Part #176 Neutral Grey/Lt. Grey * For Ocean and Haze Gray, mix a stock of 2 Parts #104, 1 Part #67 Tank Grey, and 1 Part #34 Matt White. * Ocean Grey 5-O: 1 Part of Stock + 1 Part #34. * Haze Grey 5-H: 1 Part of Stock + 4 Parts #34. I use disposable Polyethylene transfer pipettes as droppers, which I buy from a scientific supply house in my area. I mix in the bottles Testors sells five in a package. Colors you didn't mention are: * Sea Blue 5-S (and Blue Flight Deck Stain #250): Mix 1 Part Navy Blue 5-N to 1 Part Ocean Gray 5-O is the best look I've gotten. * Markings Stain Gray 251: Same as Ocean Gray * Light Gray 5-L: 1 Part of Stock + 10 Parts #34 * Pale Gray 5-P: 1 Part of Stock + 25 Parts #34 Sea Blue was a predecessor of Navy Blue. CV-2 Lexington was in this color when sunk, the CV-5 Yorktown's lower hull was still painted in it at Midway, and so forth. It was starting to be replaced by a darker color in the Atlantic even before Pearl Harbor, the darker color becoming Navy Blue 5-B officially in June 1942. The lighter flight deck stain was introduced in October 1941. The Markings stain was used with it in solid lines, but often Chrome Yellow (FS 13538 - use 33538 for scale) was used in blocks, giving the dashed look familiar in photos. Later in the war you will have to look carefully, since Chrome Yellow, White, and 251 stain were all used on the carriers' flight decks for the markings. Light and Pale Grays were used in the dazzle camouflages of the 1943-44 period, along with Dull Black, Navy Blue, Ocean Gray, and Haze Gray. All of these colors would fade rapidly, and be hard to paint back on the hull regularly. For fading effects, the blue hue was lost fairly quickly, leaving a lighter, grayer tone. The black faded to a medium gray over about 6 months, though it stayed the darkest color in the camouflage, just to give a point for relativity. {Mark Shannon} -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: BOOKS ARRIVED and SMMLLIE SPECIALS! Hallo Peeps! NEW STOCK ARRIVED!! CRUISERS OF THE ROYAL AND COMMONWEALTH NAVIES Morris, 255pp, hardbound, 1879 through to 1979, about 200 great photos, every class covered 17.95 ($28.72) KING GEORGE V CLASS BATTLESHIPS, Tarrant, s/b, reprint of this classic HERE NOW 18.95 ($30.32) and a special deal for SMMLlies BS PRESS PROFILE MORSKIE BUY 3 OR MORE, DEDUCT 15%! **ONLY** WHILE CURRENT STOCK LASTS!! No.1 HMS Ajax British cruiser 1/400 Lines, Plans, details,photos, camo,s/b 6.99 ($11.20) No.4 HMS Repulse 6.99 ($11.20) No.6 USS California BB44 Great reference 6.99 ($11.20) No.7 Chokai IJN Cruiser. 6.99 ($11.20) No.8 Karlsruhe WW2 German Cruiser 6.99 ($11.20) No.9 Italian light cruiser Raimondo Montecuccoli photos,1/200,1/400 and 1/700 scale drawings 7.99 ($12.78) No.10 HMS Belfast suggested reading for the WEM Edinburgh kit! 6.99 ($11.20) No.11 IJN Fuso Japanese Battleship 6.99 ($11.20) No.12 HMS SCYLLA Dido Class Cruiser Great refs for the WEM Dido 6.99 ($11.20) No.13 TONE Class IJN cruisers 6.99 ($11.20) No.14 USS INDIANAPOLIS h/cr. 6.99 ($11.20) No.15 IJN Maya cruiser 6.99 ($11.20) No.16 Tribal Class Destroyers 7.99 ($12.78) No.17 Zara WW2 Italian cruiser 6.99($11.20) No.18 USS ALABAMA US Battleship NEW! 6.99 ($11.20) (No.19 MARSEILLAISE & GEORGES LEYGUES French Light Cruisers coming soon and included in this offer 7.99 ($12.78) Please direct any orders direct to me, Caroline, mentioning SMML in your post. Thanks! Caroline Carter White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Conan35@aol.com Subject: Re: Model Expo Sale Model Expo is having a Thanksgiving sale from good thru Monday at 11:59 pm. Order $100.00 or more, get 10% off. Order $200.00 or more, get 15% off. Over 4000 items on the Model Expo website at http://www.modelexpoinc.com Serving the hobby industry since 1974. Best Regards Rob Finley Web Site Mgr. Model Expo, Inc. http://www.modelexpoinc.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk/ for the back issue archive. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume