Subject SMML28/11/99VOL743 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 02:18:50 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: USS ARGONAUT 2: Re: JSP Models 3: Re: Where is "Ark Royal" site? 4: Fine Art Models Missouri (and Arizona) 5: Re: Vestal as Prometheus 6: Re: Vestal and Prometheus 7: Re: I stand corrected 8: Re: Hood colors 9: Re: PB4Y-2 Privateers & Albatross's 10: WW II LST Coming back to the US 11: RAF CRAFT 12: Re: Resin Kits; engineering there of 13: Resin Kits; etc. 14: FWD: Scharnhorst 15: Re: Scout Planes 16: Re: More on MS1 17: Re: MISSOURI at 1945 18: Yellow Submarine's correct URL 19: Re: SMML topics 20: Re: Missouri at 1945 21: Re: More Privateer Info 22: Thanks 23: Naval Aviation museum 24: Re: Resin Kits: The engineering of 25: Ms 1 26: Re: Resin Kits; engineering thereof 27: IS Tennessee and Profile Morskie California 28: Re: Signal and search light techniques 29: Big E and her 5" guns -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: mprager@juno.com Subject: USS ARGONAUT Hello fellow SMMLies, I have a question for the submarine experts out there. I am gathering data to scratchbuild USS ARGONAUT (SM-1, ex-V4). I have several photos and a profile drawing. What I need is details about the sail (hatch locations, conning stations, etc.). I'd appreciate any help you can pass along. Mat Prager -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "lcp9" Subject: Re: JSP Models I talked to Jim about Loose Cannon producing these kits, but he wanted far more than they are worth,so I wouldn't expect them to see the light of day again any time soon. David -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: AllenFW2@aol.com Subject: Re: Where is "Ark Royal" site? Hello I spoke to Richard a week or two ago about the "Ark Royal III" web site. He told me that he was taking the site down for a while. He does plan on eventually...perhaps in a few months...bringing it back online and very likely at a new address. What I suggest is that you either check the "Royal Navy Web Ring" or one of it's member sites' "Links" pages. The Hood site's links section is at http://www.hmshood.com/links/HoodLinks.html) Frank Allen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Loren Perry Subject: Fine Art Models Missouri (and Arizona) The 1/192 Fine Arts model displays a Measure 22 camouflage which consists of Haze Gray and Navy Blue vertical surfaces (ie. the sides) and a Deck Blue deck. If they got the colors right, this is the correct scheme for a late war Missouri which the model depicts. However, the markings for the aircraft are indeed wrong. U.S. national insignia should only appear on upper left and lower right wings and both sides of the fuselage. A possible source for this confusion would be The Floating Drydock's excellent Plan Book of the USS Missouri: on page 105, line drawings of the SC-1 floatplane show markings on the upper right wing instead of the upper left. Perhaps the artwork was accidentally "flopped" prior to printing? Fine Art's model also shows an incorrect aircraft crane. The lower half of the model's crane depicts a perforated plate type structure. The real crane was of an all-welded pipe type of structure. Other than these problems, the model appears to be outstanding, especially for one in 1/192 scale. Their 1/192 Arizona has problems, too. The fighting tops and lattice yardarms are of an incorrect pattern and the stern crane is missing entirely. Maybe the photos were shot prior to completion? Also, the hull red appears to be too bright. Otherwise, a nice job. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Mike C" Subject: Re: Vestal as Prometheus Chris, I don't have enough information to give you an accurate answer about the differences between Vestal and Prometheus during and/or shortly after WW I. I CAN tell you that there were significant differences between the appearance of the two ships during the course of WW II. About the only aspect that was even similar was the basic shape of the hull. For example, all of the pictures of the Vestal that I've seen show a square bridge; Prometheus had a round one. Unless you have photos of the ship taken during the time your grandfather was aboard, your guess is as good as mine I'm sorry to say. Mike Czibovic -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: b29@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Vestal and Prometheus These ships were exact sister ships. However, both went through a variety of changes and reconstructions during their careers, and you need to be careful when modeling them because their original configuration was quite different from their final one. Originally built as colliers, they had very much of a standard single funneled freighter appearance. The most significant change in appearance came with the extension of the original raised fo'csle which was perhaps 70 feet long, to a length of about 150' and occurred when they were converted to repair ships in 1913. This took the fo'csle to nearly one third the length of the ship and gave them an appearance distinctly different from a standard freighter. They continued in this rig for the bulk of their careers, until late 1942, early 1943, when they received refits, which simplfied some of the bridge structure, added AA, radar, etc, and most significantly, extended the foc'sle all the way back to the center superstructure, thus creating an unbroken structure for about two-thirds of the ship. Photos of the ships in these different rigs can be found in a variety of books. Paul Jacobs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: I stand corrected >> The kit comes with 12 Rafale-M, 8 Super Etendard, 2 E2C, and 2 Panther/Dauphin helos. Since the illustrious Mr. Baker's latest opus says "35-40 aircraft" including helicopters, that seems like a reasonable amount. (Hanger will hold "23 aircraft and 2 helicopters", BTW.) Fifty would be Right Out. << I stand corrected on the Charles de Gaulle. When talking a/c numbers, I was thinking of the Nimitz class. 24 a/c on the deck might look OK on this smaller carrier. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Hood colors I have asked several folks, but gotten no definite answer as of today, so I'll put it to SMML. I need to know the colors of the Hood's (hull, superstructures, smoke stacks, masts, decks, etc.) at the time she (he) was sunk by the Bismarck. I checked out the Hood web site, but no luck there. Please use the S&S color chip numbers when responding if possible. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Chris Neel" Subject: Re: PB4Y-2 Privateers & Albatross's According to "B-24 Liberator Units of the Pacific War" by Robert Dorr (Osprey Combat Aircraft # 11): PB4Y-2's were deployed in 1944 to VPB-118. Other units to receive PB4Y-2's in 1944 were: VPB-118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124 and 143. The following units were re-equipped with PB4Y-2's (from B24 Liberators or PB4Y-1's) for their second Pacific Theater tours: VPB-101, 102, 104, 106, 108, 109, 111, 115, 116 and 117. There were also two training units which received Privateers: VPB-197 and 200. The aircraft were primarily uses as long range anti-shipping platforms. Some performed strikes against the Japanese home islands hitting harbours and industrial sites. PB4Y-2B's were equipped with the SWOD-9 Bat guided glider bombs which were used to sink a Japanese Destroyer on 27 May 1945, blowing off its bow. The Grumman Albatross prototype did not make its first flight until 24 October 1947, so it could not have seen action in WW II (from "American Warplanes" by Bill Gunston). cn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Malcolm Batchelor" Subject: WW II LST Coming back to the US I was talking to my parents over the turkey day feasting, and they relayed a story they had read. They were not sure on details, but both had remembered reading about a private group traveling to Italy, taking possession of a WW II LST, making necessary repairs, and sailing it back to the US. Some how, some way this group had to get permission from the Congress to do this. Anybody out there know anything about this? BTW, a much belated thank you to the kind folks who answered my question on the PT-309 a couple of months ago. It was worth the trip. Regards and happy modeling (however you enjoy it) Stuart Batchelor Norman, OK Where the seasons are once again confused & so am I -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Leslie Brown" Subject: RAF CRAFT Some years ago ( I think it was 1966) at the UK IPMS Nationals, I came across the firm of David J Parkins who included in their literature of forthcoming items detail sets for the Airfix 1/72 scale RAF Rescue Launch. They also listed a set for the Airfix 1/72 Vosper MTB, three sets for the Matchbox/Revell 1/72 Flower Class Corvette and a conversion set to produce a minesweeping variant. None of these have yet appeared and I contacted the firm, who now operate from Bournemouth, earlier this year to be told that they still expect to release them. Perhaps things might move quicker if they were aware of a market just waiting for these items! If any SMMLs are interested, perhaps they might like to let me know and if there is sufficient interest I could let the firm know. Please contact me off line if you are interested. Les Brown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Bob Pearson" Subject: Re: Resin Kits; engineering there of David asks about the following, >> 1) I read with interest the fellow SMMLers' preferance for empty main decks with seperatly cast hatches and other details. << Please. I prefer to have as much as possible not molded on the hull and as separate pieces for ease of painting and adding details in sub-assemblies. >> 2). Now about Photo Etch. What's YOUR preferance? cranes & towers ect. that you fold up or solid relief castings in resin? << Photo etch. >> What about railings? How many of you out there actually use them? << I find I can't not use the railing now. >> 20 MM Cannon & other light weapons? << I find I use both PE and castings depending which looks better. >> 3). Lastly, what subject(s) would you all like to see next? << > Well, I'll be the first to weigh into this subject. I would like to see a 1/700 model of the HMS Furious (1918) version. Only ship I've ever wanted to build really.< It's about time the Mistress tried a ship, so I'll support her request ... especially in WW1 dazzle. Regards, Bob Pearson Managing Editor / Internet Modeler http://www.internetmodeler.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Cadman Subject: Resin Kits; etc. >> 1) I read with interest the fellow SMMLers' preferance for empty main decks with seperatly cast hatches and other details. << No problem as long as you include the details that you omit, so we don't have to scratch build them if we don't want to. >> 2). Now about Photo Etch. What's YOUR preferance? cranes & towers ect. that you fold up or solid relief castings in resin? << Definitely PE here, I've built both ways, but the PE looks the best. >> What about railings? How many of you out there actually use them?<< I love to see railings on a ship, really moves it to the next level. >> 20 MM Cannon & other light weapons? I did PE ones for the first kit, but thought they looked too flat & 2 dimensional (even after I built them up with super glue & paint) so I started including cast ones instead.<< That's why I just use the skywave 20 mm weapons. Another thing I would love to see added is masts for the ships, even if it's just a pre cut length of brass rod. But most masts have a taper to them and I would like to see them cast. How about little details like SG radar's, horns and other accessories. >> 3). Lastly, what subject(s) would you all like to see next? << I think the biggest need is 1/700 is USN Destroyers. With Classic Warships out of production, and the Bureau of Small Warships closed down. Benson-Livermore class are especially needed, anything but Fletchers. If anyone out there has any CW or BSW DD kits please contact me off list -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "John Snyder" Subject: FWD: Scharnhorst So, anyone here (Al Ross?) interested in helping in this matter? John Snyder >> From: "Laird Cleaver" Subject: Scharnhorst I have a wooden scratch-built model of the German WW11 Battleship SCHARNHORST. The model was made by a group of English engineering students in about 1970. It was shipped to the States and restored by a model maker in the Milwaukee, Wisconsin, area in about 1985. The model maker was a friend of Harry Moeller, a respected wild life artist, who lived near 60th and North in Wauwatosa. Harry has since passed away. The SCHARNHORST was being packaged for shipment from Park City, Utah, and fell from the shipper's table. It received damage to the superstructure. I have all the pieces and they have to be reglued rather than fabricated. The model will most likey need repainting and is presently in Milwaukee. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might find the original restorer or is anyone interested in the refurbishing of this model? If so, please reply to lcleaver@ma.ultranet.com. Sincerely, Laird Cleaver << -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Scout Planes Relying on memory here: the PB4Y "Privateer" saw action in the Pacific, but not necessarily as a replacement for the PBY-5 "Catalina". That replacement role fell to the Martin PBM "Mariner" flying boat. The Grumman SA-16 "Albatross" was a postwar aircraft. John Snyder (Hoping his memory isn't too faulty) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: More on MS1 The long quote supplied is accurate in stating how and when which colors and which Measures were introduced. However, there's more to be found in some of the text of Ships-2 and its various revisions. For instance (and to re-state a previous post), the final paragraph of text of the June 1942 revision to Ships-2, which "officially" introduced Measure 21, states very plainly that Measure 21 is already in use in the Pacific--by that name. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys Now, if some shipmodeling sugar daddy would like to bankroll the effort, I'll happily ensconce myself in a hotel in Washington, D.C. and spend the requisite number of months reading deck logs, war diaries, and Captains' logs to sort all this out. ;^) Make sure it's the best hotel ;->. Mistress Lorna -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: MISSOURI at 1945 I'll leave it to someone else to comment on the placement of aircraft insignia on MISSOURI's scouts at that time, but overall gray would only have been postwar. She was in MS.22 at Tokyo Bay and before. However, a photo just after the surrender shows her in Pearl Harbor in a non-standard MS.22, with the entire hull in Navy Blue, rather than having the standard horizontal line with Haze Gray above. At any rate, she was not in overall gray as shown on the $7,500 model. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Mitsuaki Kubota Subject: Yellow Submarine's correct URL Hello, everyone. I'm sorry that I wrote incorrect URL of "Yellow Submarine" Correct URL is http://www.yellowsubmarine.co.jp/ Apologies, Mitsuaki Kubota Tokyo, Japan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Michael Morse Subject: Re: SMML topics I've been receiving SMML for awhile now and I'm concerned that a lot of the dialogue is geared toward a relatively small group of ship modelers and is either beyond a lot of younger or less experienced ship modelers or it is of little interest to others. I hope people don't mind me asking a series of rhetorical ship modeling questions. Rhetorical ship modeling question #1: I painted my ship's main deck with an acrylic paint. I tried weathering it with the same acrylic but it seemed to dry-brush unevenly. What's the best way to weather my ship's deck? Can I dry-brush enamels over the acrylic paint? If I use a thinner-based enamel to give it a "wash" will it ruin the acrylic paint job? Mike Morse East Coast Miniatures -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Al Superczynski Subject: Re: Missouri at 1945 Norman wrote: >> I noticed at http://www.fineartmodels.com/missouri.htm that the $7,500 model of the Missouri in 1945 configuration is shown with aircraft with insignia on both sides of the upper wings. I thought all military aircraft at that time had insignia on upper left and lower right only. Am I mistaken? << You're not mistaken. Those are Curtiss SC Seahawks which were first delivered to the Navy in October 1944, long after national markings had been removed from the upper right wing of US aircraft. Not only that, but Seahawks definitely didn't have bubble canopies -- there should be frame lines painted on them. I don't yet know much about ships so can't comment on the accuracy of the model except to wonder if they made comparable mistakes with the ship itself....... Al -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Chris Neel" Subject: Re: More Privateer Info See the site below for more information on the PB4Y-2's. This is part of the National Museum of Naval Aviation website (awesome - check it out if you already haven't) - the museum is located in Pensecola. Florida. They also have some info listed on the Albatross. http://www.naval-air.org/The%20Aircraft/Aircraft_Index_By_Era_Frame.htm I have to get to this museum one day. And soon! cn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Jens H. Brandal" Subject: Thanks Chris and Jaques; thank you for the info on the Richelieu book - you've been good boys, and I'll tell Santa to visit.:) Jens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Chris Neel" Subject: Naval Aviation museum For those of you who are strictly ship modelers (ha!): Here's a page on the Naval Aviation Site that shows photos of a large model of the USS Enterprise (CV-6). They have it listed as 1:72 scale but it looks more like 1:48 to me (?) http://www.naval-air.org/Exhibits/Major_Exhibits_Frame.htm cn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "Russell M Smith" Subject: Re: Resin Kits: The engineering of Well Dave. I would like to see open hatches that I could install or not as I liked. I think that most modelers of resin modelers have enough expierence to clean to clean them up. I like my old plastic models but sure am glad for the resin ones. I too would like to see some of the older between the war carriers of the British, French, Japanese, and American. I know that they are usually one ship classes but I would order one of each right now if I knew they were going to be made by someone who knew their business. I have built a 1/700th Wasp and Langley from scratch and that took me months. So, I don't mind paying for all the extra work that you and others do with PE and extra parts, and PLANES. If not these carriers how about pre WWI Battleships? Russ Smith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Ms 1 As I understand it from talking to a paint expert on USN colors in the war, the dark grey as used in 1941 contained a certain amount of blue. I have seen color movie film of warships taken in the war where vessels known to have been painted in dark grey appear as blue, caused by the film over a period of time going to the blue end of the range.* I have a document in my possession that states that in the first week of December 1941 the destroyer Flusser at Pearl Harbor was painted for experimental purposes in overall NAVY BLUE. This was known as Measure 1c.** Somewhere I believe I have some documents that describe the colors that the battleships were in, in late 1941. To find them will not be easy, as they have been placed in storage for safekeeping! * Is the film in question still in pristine condition? ** I threw this in out of general interest. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: Allan and Crystal Plumb Subject: Re: Resin Kits; engineering thereof >> 2). Now about Photo Etch. What's YOUR preferance? cranes & towers ect. that you fold up or solid relief castings in resin? What about railings? How many of you out there actually use them? 20 MM Cannon & other light weapons? I did PE ones for the first kit, but thought they looked too flat & 2 dimensional (even after I built them up with super glue & paint) so I started including cast ones instead. << I only bother with railings on 1/500 or larger scales. Life's too short. >> 3). Lastly, what subject(s) would you all like to see next? << > Well, I'll be the first to weigh into this subject. I would like to see a 1/700 model of the HMS Furious (1918) version. Only ship I've ever wanted to build really. Mistress Lorna < No, no! Courageous or Glorious! That single 18" aft turret (after the conversion of which Mistress Lorna speaks) is so, well, unbalanced. C&G are so much more, umm, symmetrical. Silly, but symmetrical. (Hey, I build planes, too. Anything but cars.) Allan Plumb Hi Allan, I was talking about the 1918 conversion, where she lost the aft turret(as originally laid down & built) & replaced it with aft flight deck. Mistress Lorna(looks like there was some point in buying that Roger Chesneau book for him afterall) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: IS Tennessee and Profile Morskie California For those of you who may be planning on getting the IS 1:350 1944 Tennessee (California/West Virginia) kit, do yourself a supreme favor and get the Profile Morskie #6 USS California book. It has a complete set of 1:400 plans of the exterior features of the ship as she appeared in 1944. I received my copy of MP #6 from Research in Scale in NJ this past monday (before Caroline announced it was avalable through WEM). I spent an evening with the book and the IS kit doing a parts inventory and dry-fit test using these plans. This not only increased my appreciation of the kit, but also led me to the belief that the book is an absolute must if you want to do a proper build up of the IS kit. I don't have the kit (yet), but it should also prove indispensible for the CW 1:700 Tennessee kit. In spite of the overall similarities, there are a number of minute differences between the Tennessee, California, and West Virginia (beyond the triple 14-in/50-cal of the former two and twin 16-in/45-cal mounts of the latter). Most of these deal with radars, masts, 40/20mm guns, etc. For example, per Breyer's -- "The after pole mast in California was much taller and carried a type SP radar ariel. In Tennessee the after pole mast was much lower; this carried a type SC-2 radar aerial and in 1944 a seond, slightly taller mast wityh a type SG radar aerial was mounted on the after edge of the funnel and connected to the mast abaft by struts." In 1/45 though, this arrangment was replaced with a single tall main pole mast topped with an SP like the California. Comparatively, West Virgina carried a SK-2 atop her foremast (compared to the SK aerials on the earlier sisters). What I haven't found yet is what type of aerial she carried atop her main pole mast. Add to this a photo of the ship being inclined in '46 that shows the optical range finders on her Y Turret have been replaced with two small Mk-27 radars (Friedman's US Battleships pg-359). The outboard plan of the ship in this book doesn't show these, so I have no idea when the mod was made. This said, as good as PM #6 is, remember it's topic is the California. So make sure you study your photos, drawings, plans, and other resources to identify these differences. (I need better photogs...my eyes are glossing over!) The plans (and IS model) are both represenative of the three ships as they appeared in '44. Need I even say, those who want to build the kit as one of the ships as they appeared in '45 (whew) will need to invest more time doing their home work. For instance, following the California's Feb-Jun '45 refit, her 40mm battery was increased by two quad batteries, and her 20mm battery was rearranged in the process of replacing most of her single 20mm mounts with twin 20mm mounts. The best plan I've found for this to date is in Friedman's US Battleships (pg-374). There are also a few discrepancies in the PM book. As Mike Leonard warned me about, the pattern shown on the back cover of the California's Ms 32 scheme appears to be correct, but the colors (tan, green, and blue) are not. Need I say, Tennessee's and West VIrginia's Ms 32 schemes differed from California's. The plans show the lower flange of the funnel cap rests flush atop the 0700 deck. Please note -- I'm guessing at the deck level based on the interior deck layout in PM and a deck chart in the USN Bluejackets Manual (I am not an expert in these regards). Plans in the Myron Golden State Battlewagon and Friedman US Battleships books also shows this to be the case. Photos of all three ships though show there is a slight gap/space/opening between the funnel and the fire control tower on the 0700 deck - with a searchlight platform mounted atop 0600 deck between the two. This gap is also apparent in the drawings of the ships in the Breyer BB and BCs book. BTW, the IS model appears to be correct in this regard. Another ommission in the plans is the absence of the port side boat crane. Photos taken of the ship in '44 show the California to have both a starboard and port side boat crane. A questionable issue I haven't been able to deny/confirm is the book shows the California to have shielded quad 40mm mounts in '44. Yet again, plans in Friedman's US Battleships and Breyer's BBs and BCs show this to be the case. Photos of the California taken in 44, in her Ms 32 scheme, make it hard to tell. A photo of the ship in the Esprito Santo floating drydock (following the collision with Tennessee) seems to indicate unshielded mounts, but again...it's hard to tell. Comparatively, photos taken of the Tennessee in 5/43 and 1/45, and of the West Virginia in ABSD-1 in '44 all show unshielded 40mm gun mounts. An overhead starboard-astern photo of the California following her 45 refit also shows unshielded 40mm mounts. All this said, the evidence seems to indicate the ships had unshielded 40mm mounts (contrary to the plans) All in all though, these are relatively minor problems in the overall scope of things. The only downside to this book it's lack of comparable plans of the ship's appearance prior to reconstruction. The only references are 1:700 starboard-profile plans of the ship in 36, 41, and 42, and a bow/stern hull body contour plan. These are top notch, but are not as comprehensive as the '44 break down. Still, these have sorta piqued my interest in possibly building a model of the ship as she appeared when she left Pearl Harbor for the West Coast in 10/42. Dasvidanya! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar2@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: Re: Signal and search light techniques >> What about signal and search lights? Use same technique as for running light lenses or undercoat black with gloss coat? Thanks for suggestions and any better ideas for this scale. << I like to paint such lights silver and then add a "dome" of clear 5-minute epoxy glue. Makes a very reaistic lens. Cheers, Bob Santos -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29) From: "Timothy Dike" Subject: Big E and her 5" guns I was reading through Steve Ewings book on the USS Enterprise and he makes mention of her getting 8 more powerful 5" 38 cal guns during her 43 stay at Puget Sound. Does this mean she was fitted with 5" 25s originally? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk/ for the back issue archive. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume