Subject: SMML29/11/99VOL744 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:13:51 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: HMS Hood 2: Re: Hood Colors 3: Enterprise 4: USN Color Oddity 5: Fine Art Missouri - a correction 6: Re: VESTAL and PROMETHEUS-Correction 7: Weathering Decks 8: LST 9: Re: Iowa bow tub 10: Re: HMS FURIOUS 11: Resin Kits; engineering there of 12: Lets all thank Mr. Finnern 13: HMS Malaya 14: Camouflage in 1945 on US ships and Royal Navy Destroyers 15: Re:USS ARGONAUT 16: Fine Art Models Missouri (and Arizona) 17: Rhetorical ship modeling question #1 18: Resin kit engineering, etc... 19: Re: Resin Kits; engineering there of 20: Viking's Texas 21: Re: Crazy about Furious 22: USS Cimarron Camo 23: Re: SMML topics 24: Re: SMML topics 25: Request from David Angelo -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Virus warnings -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: HMS Hood Hi Rusty I'm suprised you found nothing on the Hood site as there is a section on the final paint scheme: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/2966/Models/Hoodpaint.html If you get no joy from this contact me off list and I'll post a copy through to you. It's fairly detailed and covers all you'll need. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: AllenFW2@aol.com Subject: Re: Hood Colors Hello Everyone Frank Allen of "Battle Cruiser Hood" here. In today's SMML, Rusty said that he was looking for information on Hood's final paint scheme. He also said that he had no luck on the Hood site. The information is definitely there and definitely accurate. The reason he couldn't reach it was because of "server problems" being experienced by our site provider, WebJump. For that, we apologize. Until the WebJump site works properly, we're keeping a mirror/clone site at Geocities. In fact, as of just a few minutes ago, we uploaded all the Scale Models files. So, if you can't reach www.hmshood.com, you should be able to reach the Geocities site. Meanwhile, we'll try to find a better service to transfer out URL to so that we will have only one site...and one that works. The Hood Paint Schemes article can be found at the following addresses: http://www.hmshood.com/models/Hoodpaint.html AND http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/2966/models/HoodPaint.html Frank -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Kurt Van Dahm Subject: Enterprise Chris Neel wrote: >> Here's a page on the Naval Aviation Site that shows photos of a large model of the USS Enterprise (CV-6). They have it listed as 1:72 scale but it looks more like 1:48 to me (?) http://www.naval-air.org/Exhibits/Major_Exhibits_Frame.htm << Chris: The model is in fact 1/72 scale. The flight deck is 11' long! The model is the second 1/72 scale model built of the Enterprise, the first is at the Oshkosh, WI museum of the EAA. A group of modelers were involved in both projects with two or three then making the final assembly at the museums. I was involved in the Pensacola project and made the 40mm Boffers guns (14) while other modelers made various other parts of the model. Fellow club members Ed Urbanczyk and Tim Tiggs made the main deck crane and the ships boats respectively. It is scheduled for dedication ceremonies in May, 2000 where I hope to meet all the others involved in the project. Take care, Kurt Van Dahm Westmont, IL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: GrafSpee34@aol.com Subject: USN Color Oddity Hi Just came across an interesting USN color tidbit. Forgive me if its common knowledge, it is new to me in any case. Page 167 of "Operation Crossroads the Official Pictorial Record" c. 1946 shows a bw picture of the blasted Nevada and states "Nevada's coat of orange yellow paint, put on to aid the bombardier's aim, was badly scorched..." (Deck appears to be natural wood in the photo, since the caulk shows up dark and does not look painted over). An orange yellow battleship might make an interesting model. Sure to cause some doubletakes anway. Dave Krakow -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Loren Perry Subject: Fine Art Missouri - a correction Before the e-mail replies get too hot and heavy, I must correct myself: The Fine Art Model of the USS Missouri displays the natural wood main deck and 01 level, not the Deck Blue camouflage color as I'd stated yesterday. The natural wood deck would be correct for the period immediately after the surrender ceremony of 2 Sept. 1945 when the crew holystoned the paint off for the last time while en route to Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. The Deck Blue was still in place on the day of the surrender ceremony. Other than this, the Fine Art model appears to show the correct color scheme for late 1945, ie. Ms. 22. But it's hard to be sure of their color selections due to website color accuracy, etc. As for the bubble canopies on the SC-1s, Fine Art may be trying to mimic the official 1/48 scale Gibbs and Cox Navy model with its simplified aircraft on the stern. This has always been standard operating procedure with models in the Navy collection, ie. highly detailed ships with simplified representations of the on-board aircraft. The results usually include missing canopy frames and other small details. If this is Fine Art's intent, then they did a good job capturing the look and feel of a Gibbs and Cox model. (The G & C models are widely regarded as the finest scale model warships ever built.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: b29@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: VESTAL and PROMETHEUS-Correction In regards to my last post on these ships, note that the foc'sle was NOT extended on these ships in 1913. War photos show the foc'sle still as original through out the war. The change was made sometime after the war, but photos from the early '20's show the change so it probably occurred circa 1919-1921. Paul Jacobs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Weathering Decks Mike Morse asked: >> Rhetorical ship modeling question #1: << You can dry-brush enamels over acrylics and vice-versa. Shouldn't be a problem with thinner attacking acrylics unless you really overdo it. My first choice in weathering decks (especially if it's supposed to be a metal deck) is to use artist's pastels. A few sticks are very inexpensive and will last a lifetime. Rub the stick against sand paper or an emory board and brush the powder onto the deck with an old brush. A little clear flat coat will prevent to pastels from lifting. Pastels also work well for simulating running rust and other wear-and-tear on a hull. Mike L Alexandria, VA USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Shaya Novak" Subject: LST For anyone who doesn't think WWII LST are still around. Three weeks ago Sunday The New York Times feature color picture front page was a WWII LST still being used by Indonesia for the landings in those Hot spots over there. We built them right and to last. Shaya Novak Naval Base Hobbies The Store for The Model Ship Builder www.modelshipbuilding.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Joe Costanzo Subject: Re: Iowa bow tub just got back from thanksgiving vacation and reading my back messages >> Ah yes, but what we really want to know is a) Did you manage to convert the Bow 20mm tubs to the correct shape? - If so, how? (there's at least 2 people needing an answer to this one << No, I was aware of this but know of no solution short of scratchbuilding a new part. If you cottage industry manufacturers are listening, this is a part a lot of people are clamoring for! Perhaps one of you might present a solution? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Re: HMS FURIOUS Hallo SMMLlie folk, Following Lorna's request (then Bob's follow-up), I think that David is sensible enough to realise that Furious would be a pig of a kit! We at WEM have this on our schedule, but have had to delay for a variety of reasons. However, we HAVE acquired all the necessary builder's plans. These plans were acquired at about 350 quid the set.. around $550.00 U.S. but plans are only part of the story.. We are aware that it will take a long time for sales of kits to cover the plan cost, let alone the patterns, castings and etched brass design, tooling and set-up! Yes, there is the old Warship Profile, but there is not enough detail here to build an accurate model in 1/700. Of course, we are planning a WW2 Furious in 1/700 Scale first off... so the Mistress just has to go and build some more WWI aircraft in the meantime! Re new kits that WE would like to see from David in 1/700 scale, yes, a few really nicely done U.S. destroyers would be great. We get a good demand for these, and no-one does them at this time. However, JUST in case Skywave do release their Benson/Livermore, I would advise against this subject, as the emergence of an injection moulded kit in that subject would seriously diminish sales... (and don't we know it!) Good Luck anyhow, and we look forward to seeing what decision you make for forthcoming subjects. Best Regards Caroline WEM Well, I guess I've been told to pipe down ;-) Seriously though, I am very happy that there is one " in the works " even if I do get impatient. Afterall, it's wait with eager anticipation or scratchbuild one. As I'd prefer to turn my scratchbuilding efforts to certain WW1 aircraft, it looks as though I may have to work on learning to be patient. Hmm, maybe scratchbuilding IS the better option ;-) Mistress Lorna --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Joe Costanzo Subject: Resin Kits; engineering there of Here's 2 Italian ships I'd like to see: 1:700 BB Dante Alighieri and CGH Vittorio Venetto! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Ralph Koziarski" Subject: Lets all thank Mr. Finnern I spoke to Julius A. Finnern a navy vet of ww2, on the topic of ship colors at Pearl, here's what he said >> All I know is the ships I served on were painted battleship gray. If they had ships painted navy blue in my 20 years of service, 15 of which were sea duty, I never saw one. Mahalo and Aloha. Julius A. Finnern PHSA National Secretay << I can see how the battleship gray would appear blue-ish on the colorized film. It's kinda like those purple elephants in the early technicolor Tarzan films. Hope this helps settle this issue cheers, Ralph -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: HMS Malaya Hi John Very interesting account of your friends wartime service and I too would be interested in the photos. With regard to the photo could it be the same one that appears in a wartime publication "East of Malta, West of Suez" which is an admiralty history of the RN in the Eastern Mediterranean between September 39 and March 1941. If this is so then it actually shows Malaya, Ramillies and Kent on their way to bombard Bardia and Fort Capuzzo on 17 August 1940. Hope this is of interest. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Camouflage in 1945 on US ships and Royal Navy Destroyers At the end of the Pacific war (exact date uncertain) The camouflage department, in order to cut down the work load, revised the following camouflage measures:- Measure 12 1945 (revised) Apply a horizontal band of #7 navy grey (5N) for the entire length of the hull form the bootopping to the main deck line . Above this level paint all surfaces #17 ocean grey (5O) . The dividing line is to follow the sheer line of the deck and NOT to run parallel with the waterline. Measure 22 (revised) The same principle as above except that the colors were to be; #7 navy blue (5NB), or #7 navy grey (5-N) if blue was not available. The upper color was to be #27 haze grey (5-H). Countershading:- none Further notes on camouflage: I must have a million sheets of documents from the Archives on USN camouflage. All buried in boxes somewhere, things about revisions to ALL the browns and greens in late 1944, described as #17 outside brown, and #14 green and the like. Lists of what vessels were painted in which scheme etc, etc. I found mention of a standard pattern for landing craft with no less than FOUR different modifications approved, dated 1944. The problem is that I do not know what to do with all this material. A WARNING, this is raw data and only a percentage can be used "as is" on a reliable basis. The balance would have to be laid against dated photos; an enormous amount of work. Work is about to begin on what will almost certainly be the standard work of reference on British Destroyers and Escort ships. With a bit of luck it will be delivered to the publisher in late 2000. Published in two volumes, and my instinct tells me that each one will be about 500 pages. It should be good. And if I do not get a FREE copy I will be very upset!!! I'm tired and I need a large scotch right now -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re:USS ARGONAUT I'll have to look in my reference materials. I know I have pictures and some drawings of Argonaut. What time period do you intend to model? Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Carbine887@aol.com Subject: Fine Art Models Missouri (and Arizona) I was able to see the Uss Arizona model when I was in Detroit this summer. Wow! That was one of the most impressive models I have seen. Would have made a great R/c. As Loren said, the stern crane was missing, but the overall quality definately makes up for the short comings. Eric -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Ed Grune Subject: Rhetorical ship modeling question #1: Let me suggest the following technique which I've used: After the acrylic colors are applied and dry, seal them with a clear acrylic gloss. I use Polly Scale Clear Gloss over Polly Scale colors. Next, mix a thin wash of color using turpentine or another "mild" thinner. Don't use a "hot" thinner like lacquer thinner. I use oils for the color. I use burnt umber or burnt sienna mostly. Wash the colored thinner over the areas you want, hatches, deck fittings, gun mounts, etc. Let it dry. Now go back over it with a VERY dry brush of the original color. For decks you might want to take it up one hue of color. This will pop the details out of the shadows made by the oil wash. You can always go back over and dry brush again - but keep the layers very light. When everything is as you want it, shoot a coat of satin or dull to take off the shine. The trick is to seal the paint and then use a wash with a different thinner type so that the thinner doesn't attack the underlaying paint. Ed Mansfield, TX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Jeffrey Roberts" Subject: Resin kit engineering, etc... I prefer having really small things like doors and hatches molded in place...It is easier for me to paint around them rather than placing them myself. Regarding cranes, towers, light AA mounts,etc...hands down I prefer photo etch pieces. I think they look better on the finished model...more to scale. Finally, subjects I'd like to see? heavy cruiser USS Houston (CA-30) or Australian light cruiser HMAS Perth. Best wishes, Jeffrey Roberts North Hollywood, California -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Marc Flake Subject: Re: Resin Kits; engineering there of 1) Separately cast hatches, doors: Personally, in 1/700 scale, I've found it nearly impossible to hang a door correctly. 2) Photoetch the towers, cranes 3) I'm putting railings on all resin ships whose prototype measured longer than 300 feet. 4) Photoetch 20mms look ridiculously two dimensional. Current cast 20mm are too big. I would prefer cast to photoetched 20mm. 5) Next subject(s): Liked the destroyer suggestion, really liked the pre-war carrier suggestion (Langley anyone?) Marc Flake Tarrant County, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Marc Flake Subject: Viking's Texas Just put this ship on the slips last week. Thought I'd relay some glitches during construction before I forgot half of them. The platforms for the main mast are all wrong. Don't even match the illustration in the instructions. Classic Warship's monograph has helped immensely. I've cut new platforms using the templates in the book. Thanks, Steve. Just spent the evening sanding off the anamolous features atop the turrets. Don't know where they came up with these latteral humps. No photo of Texas that I've seen have them. Hull needed a long bake at 250 degrees to smooth out a warp, then required some heavy sanding fore and aft to smooth things out. Plastic rods enclosed for the foremast were the correct length for the forward leg -- rear legs are easliy trimmed to fit. Main mast rods were way too long. Break out the dividers and use the 1/700 drawing in the CW book for assistance. Also, I have decided to dress-up the guns with some of the Regia Marina turned brass barrels. In the catalog they are listed at 14" to 16". They can only be used as 14" if you remove a lot of the tapering at the wide end. In order for the guns on number three turret to clear the main mast tripods, they have almost no tapering at all. Much needed 20mm galleries need to be added to turrets 2 and 4. Using strip styrene. I'm hoping that Rusty has more splinter sheilding on his fret than I will need, so I can add it to the turret tops. Marc Flake (who is glad he didn't choose the CW Nevada in Ms Whatever as his first resin battleship) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Allan and Crystal Plumb Subject: Re: Crazy about Furious Mistress Lorna said: >> I was talking about the 1918 conversion, where she lost the aft turret(as originally laid down & built) & replaced it with aft flight deck. << Oh well then, that's OK. I still like Furious better during WWII, but given your modelling predelictions I can understand 1918. I should have checked my references, I see that the single-ended period was only about 6-11/1917, and 1918 was all sort-of carrier. The Chesneau book is a good start. It shows a smidgeon of everything, with some interesting insights into development of design. It doesn't always give a lot about the way the look changed, and I don't trust many of the statistics. Excellent overview, though. I'm always fascinated by how doctrine and technology affected ship designs before they were tested in battle. I've put the new USNI book "British and American Carrier Development 1919-1941" on my Xmas list; pity it didn't tie in Japanese ideas as well. That is covered somewhat in a chapter of "Military Innovation in the Interwar Period" by Millett and Murray. Still pondering a conversion of 1/600 Repulse into C or G, though. Battlecruisers were so, well, pointless. But lots of pointy bits. Allan Plumb (Now if I could only find volume 3 of Millett and Murray's "Military Effectiveness", my cup would run over, said he remembering that the last time he mentioned a book want on SMML somebody found a mint copy of "British Cruisers of WWII" for him, yummy. :-) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Michael Eisenstadt Subject: USS Cimarron Camo Folks: I'm making a real, real tiny diorama (using 1/2400 scale GHQ ship models) showing USS Essex being replenished by USS Cimarron (or one of her identical sisters, Neosho or Platte) circa 1943. First, would anyone know if Essex and Cimarron crossed paths (wakes?) during this timeframe, so that such a diorama would be at least historically plausible? And if Cimarron did not, did either of her identical sisters, Neosho or Platte, operate with Essex at this time? Second, would anyone know what scheme Cimarron wore during this timeframe? Was she still wearing Measure 22 or was she repainted in Measure 32/13T during this time? If Cimarron is not a candidate for this diorama and Neosho and/or Platte are, would anyone know what schemes these ships wore during this timeframe? Essex will be in her Measure 32/6-10D scheme worn from April-November 1943. I fully expect to ruin my eyes and lose my sanity attempting these schemes in 1/2400 scale. Any help would be gratefully appreciated. Thanks! Yours truly, Mike Eisenstadt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Mitsuaki Kubota Subject: Re: SMML topics Dear Mr. Morse and everyone >> I'm concerned that a lot of the dialogue is geared toward a relatively small group of ship modelers and is either beyond a lot of younger or less experienced ship modelers or it is of little interest to others. << I have same opinion. If we shipmodelers leave younger modelers behind, our average age would be going on older and older. Indeed reserching the plans, camouflages or fittings are very important, but the things we should to do is increasing the numbers of young shipmodeler. My dry-brush technique isn't so well, but I use Humbrol or Tamiya enamels. Firstly I paint model Gunze-Sangyo Mr. Color(synthetic lacqer), but acrylic paints are also usable. Enamel paints doesn't erode acrylic and synthetic lacqer paints. But synthetic lacqer paints erode enamel and acrylic paints. Acrylic and enamel paints doesn't erode each other. The method is called "Dry-Brushing", but I think it should be called "brushing with a bit of thinned enamel paints". Scrubbing a model with thick paints spoils your laborious work. I think AFV modelers have good sense of dry-brushing. I'm not AFV modeler, but I envy there skills. Best regards, Mitsuaki Kubota Tokyo, Japan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Re: SMML topics Michael... I agree, some of the topics discussed here could be seen as intimidating to younger and less experienced modelers. While I've posted some pretty heavy nit-picky posts as of late, the fact is it's been over ten years since I picked up a paint brush or knife. Likewise, I've never worked with resin, PE, nor have I ever attempted a prototypical project. That said, yeah...there are some topics here that really do give me a case of the jitters. The level of knowlege among the parties who participate on this list can also be pretty intimidating. I mean, reading some of these posts can give a guy a serious inferiority complex. I read some of these posts and start to think "I only thought I knew my stuph" or wonder "Am I kidding myself?" OTOH, I've been wanting to learn about these things, so I subbed to the list in hopes of learning tips, tricks, techniques, etc that might be useful. Naturally, not everything I read here is going to apply to projects I've been contemplating. Therefore, I'm having to learn how to determine which discussions apply to my situation. Good example, I haven't ever entered a model in a contest before, so while it's interesting to read about such things (to an extent), it doesn't yet apply to my situation. As such, I tend to skim/gloss over things related to this. Some of the discussions about proper colors, flags, markings, rigging, etc are things I never put much thought into before. If I want to build prototypical models though, these are things I need to consider (no matter how intimidating, overwhelming, or downright scary as they might seem at times). No pain, no gain. The way I figure, unless I hear about such things, I may never think about them. Unless I think about them...nuff said. Comparatively though, someone who's only interested in building models out of the box for kicks and grins on a causual basis so they can have something neat to display on their bookshelf, things like that might not be as important to them. I guess you could have an alternate list for novice shipwrights, but IMO it would sorta defeat the purpose. As awed as I am at times from the folks I meet here, I've never been bashed or talked down to for my lack of knowledge on something. Okay...well, there was the Japanese Arizona thing, but I deserved that (insert foot, bite down, chew, swallow, digest...nuff said). If anything, I've gotten a lot of encouragement (which is really helping my confidence), and it's darn nice to know I'm getting advice from folks who really know their ships. Dasvidanya! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar2@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org Derek, That last comment is exactly the point of being on any list. The other thing is that most experienced modellers who are active posters to a list forum will not mind answering your questions either on or off-list. Afterall we want to see more people modelling in our "special area" of modelling because that means more demand for kits which means more kits to buy which means LOADS more fun ;-))) Mistress Lorna -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: hans bosma Subject: Request from David Angelo Hi David, Your request: Modern Russian ships: Kresta 1 and 2, Kynda etc Pre world war II English carriers (3 deck ships) Aux. Ships US Navy WWII and after (Missile tracking etc) Personally I prefer photoetch parts over resin I am always using anything that is provided in a kit (and more)but never the AA guns, they are indeed too flat( I am just using the shields) All the best Hans Bosma -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Shane Subject: Virus warnings Hi gang, Before any of you send in virus warnings to SMML, or in fact to anyone, could you please bookmark the following site & check there first: http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/ There are other similar sites, but this is the one I use. They have a list of well known hoaxes & will save any posting of hoaxes around the net. They also have pages where they tell you how to fix your computer, in case you may have been infected. Regards, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/4712/volumes/ for the back issue archive. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume