Subject: SMML30/12/99VOL775 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 00:05:42 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: USN Measure 16 Thayer System 2: Camouflage Measures 3: Re: Web Site on Japanese Naval History 4: Re: Carley float straps 5: Re: FRAM colors 6: Re: USN SHIP NAMES 7: Re: Paint bottle seals 8: Re: carley float straps 9: Re: USS Chicago 10: Carley Floats 11: Computer Problems 12: USS Olympia 13: Re: Carley float straps 14: Re: Mixing Paints 15: Carley Floats 16: Re: USS Chicago 17: USS Lloyd (APD-63) Camo 18: Re: Air Group 4 colors 19: Re: Paint bottle markings anyone? 20: Re: Carley float straps 21: Model Shipways Paints: Review 22: Mixing to Match S&S Color Chips 23: Re: Nautical Nomenclature -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "John Sheridan" Subject: USN Measure 16 Thayer System Does anyone have a photo of a USN ship painted in MS 16 Thayer System? I know about the one in Floating drydock's camo 1 book but I am looking for a better image. Can anyone help me with this? John Sheridan Visit my USN Ship Camo site at: http://home.earthlink.net/~jrsheridan/ I am not a Member of the Lumber Cartel (tinlc) and I am not Unit #631 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "John Sheridan" Subject: Camouflage Measures Does anyone have any photos of USN ships painted in the following Measures: Measure 3 Measure 4 Measure 5 Measure 6 Measure 7 Measure 8 Measure 13 Measure 14 I am looking for photos to add to the camouflage website. John R. Sheridan What I do to Spammers: http://microscale.com/images/N2.jpg I am not a Member of the Lumber Cartel (tinlc) and I am not Unit #631 Last last place on earth I would look for the Lumber Cartel(tm) is http://come.to/the.lumber.cartel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Jonathan Parshall Subject: Re: Web Site on Japanese Naval History >> I stumbled across this site recently and thought it may be of interest, especially to those who follow Japanese naval matters: http://www2.gol.com/users/billlise/jnp/index.html << Unfortunately, Bill hasn't done any work on his site for about two years, and he doesn't answer email either. I have a link to his site from mine, and he used to correspond fairly regularly, but I haven't chatted with him in more than a year, and I think his interest may have disappeared, unfortunately. This is a pity, because he is fluent in written Japanese, and has easy access to the JSDF archives in Tokyo, so he could be a gold mine. So it goes. jon parshall- Imperial Japanese Navy Homepage http://www.skypoint.com/members/jbp/kaigun.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Bob Pearson" Subject: Re: Carley float straps Keith, HSP is almost the right answer. Try cutting thin strips of 10 thou card and doing the stretching trick to it .. it will go as thin as you want, and retain the flat section. Regards, Bob Pearson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: FRAM colors I have a standard mix I use for Haze Gray which is the color of the FRAM vertical surfaces. I mix 2 parts Model Master Medium Gray to 1 part Model Master Camouflage Gray. Medium Gray has a blue tint to it that is characteristic to Haze Gray. Camouflage Gray makes an excellent out-of-the-bottle white for ships. For the nonskid decks (horizontal) I use Model Master Gunship Gray. Add Camouflage Gray to lighten to your taste. Paint the helopad a little darker. Then dust the decals with the helopad color to tone them down. These three colors should work on most modern US warships. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Tom Dean Subject: Re: USN SHIP NAMES Mr. Dave Baker sent the following when joining discussion on USN ship naming >> When we were building large numbers of ships, it made good sense to have well-defined categories, but today we build very few ships (which is really okay, as ours are infinitely better than anyone else's and nobody else is building very many) << I wonder if he could qualify this statement. Does he mean all classes of ships or just some? Does he mean that no other maritime nation can build a better warship class than the USA now does? Does this mean that the top of the line frigates in service in Britain, France and Canada for example just don't stand up well to their American counterparts. Just wondering Tom Dean Hamilton, Ontario Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Paint bottle seals >> Now, what has this crew of experts discovered for replacing the inner-lid seals to try and preserve "bottled" paint??? << I use aluminum foil. Also, try this. Write the Testor Corp. and ask if you can buy some seals for their line of paint bottles. I doubt they will sell them to you. They want that paint to dry up. It sell more paint. It's worth a try though. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: carley float straps >> What would be a good source of material to use for carley float straps(tie-downs) in 600 scale? << I use aluminum foil. It's very flexible and stays exactly how it's bent. Works really well for lifeboat covers too! Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "John Sheridan" Subject: Re: USS Chicago John Sheridan sez: >> USS Chicago CA-29 was painted MS 21 in 1943. MS 21 calls for Navy Blue 5-N on all vertical surfaces and Deck Blue 20-B on all horizontal surfaces. << And then, James Corley sez: >> Well, to be accurate, she wasn't painted in 1943....or at least the odds were highly against it! She was sunk on 30JAN43. << I was not stating that Chicago was painted *in* 1943 but was carrying that paint scheme in the year 1943. Just you wait till the Dallas Nats James, because I am going to personally give you a whack with my #3 Cluestick(tm) ! Yours figuratively, John Sheridan Visit my USN Ship Camo site at: http://home.earthlink.net/~jrsheridan/ I am not a Member of the Lumber Cartel (tinlc) and I am not Unit #631 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Carley Floats Hi Keith Try ordinary photocopier paper, cut to size and width and painted. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Hughes Family" Subject: Computer Problems Help! My wonderful computer decided to have some problems and the fix was to reformat, ugh! I was able to save most of the items on the machine but my "Favorites" folder which contained all the cool sites I had found was not saved. I have been able to find most of the modeling sites but still can't find the Home Page for DML or Tamiya. If anyone has them I would appreciate it if you could send them my way. Also Santa brought me a DML Saipan, and I swear I remember an article on building the USS Tarawa/Saipan somewhere on the web but have not been able to find it. Was I dreaming? Anyone else remember this? Any help would be appreciated, thanks in advance Jeff Hughes -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Nicolas Protonotarios Subject: USS Olympia 1. I believe there was a recent re-release of an Olympia pre-dreadnought BB. Does anyone know where one can be purchased (on or off-line). 2. To anyone interested in the early battleship era (pre-WW1), the "Battleship 2nd Class" HN Averof has been a floating museum near Athens for some years and has recently been renovated. Some photos of the ship (in its 1930s guise) and a CD-RoM are available. I don't think there are many ships of that era left in the world and Averof has got to be one of the most balanced designs ever. Let me know if you want me to e-mail some photos. By the way, a Greek guy in Corfu has been making a resin kit of the Averof with PE etc. It may be on sale by March 2000. I will keep you posted. Thanks Nicolas Protonotarios -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Fritz Koopman Subject: Re: Carley float straps Hi Keith: The best that I can sugesst for you is paper. Cut ordinary printer stock paper to the scale width of the strap (in your case about 0.7 to 1 millimeter wide). Paint both sides with acrylic or oil paint to seal it. Then coat one side with a thin layer of thickened glue. Then GENTLY strech it into position (gluey side on the float). This is easiest done while the Carley Float is not yet mounted. Wrap the strap around the carley float if accuracy requires. Finally cut of excess with really sharp exacto chisel. It's delicate, but it works for me. Of course, if you want to get fancy and drive yourself batty, you can add buckles if references show the float was buckled down instead of lashed down.You can make it so the ends meet on the outside face of the float. Then glue it so that a small amount of the outer strap end is doubled back on itself. This (at small scales) can give the illusion of the strap doubled back through a buckle (at really small scales, maybe 1/700 and smaller, these get too small to be practical). Add a touch of grey (that is slightly different shade than the surrounding area) right where it bends back to "paint on" the buckle. If you want, I'll draw an illustration to calarify this last bit, and post it to the SMML pic post. Just let me know. Best wishes to all for the new year. Fritz Koopman Salem Massachussets, where it has finally turned abruptly, and seemingly permanently, sub zero, ......and still no snow :-( -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Kelvin Mok" Subject: Re: Mixing Paints >> Just make sure that once you find the correct shade you want, that you mix enough for the kit in question (or keep very precise notes on how you mixed up the first batch). << I inherited a sping loaded laboratory pipette that had a disposable plastic spout. The spout is a high density low friction type plastic that can be easily cleaned and reused. Its great for mixing batches of paint. The pipette sucks up any volume up to 10 ml into the spout and the graduation on the handle allows one to dispense accurately a measure of liquid. Using a seperate disposable tip one can measure how many drops of color paint dispensed for the desired color mix. Thus one can replicate the mix proportions any time. Kelvin Mok -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Sven E Dorsey" Subject: Carley Floats I have had a fair amount of luck pre-shaping my sprue with a file to the shape I want [within reason] and then streching it I would file it on both sides and then strech it as needed. EXPERIMENT!!! Sven E Dorsey -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Mike_C Subject: Re: USS Chicago James, The yard photos that I have of Chicago at Mare Island are dated 14 December 1942. The regulations changed in June of 1942, so MS21 was firmly in use by that time. She may have been gray when she lost her bow, but I'm positive that she was 5-N when she was sunk. Be careful when trying to interpret colors from B&W photos. There are too many variables- including time of day, type of film, print exposure, angle of the light source, angle of observation in relation to the light source, distance from subject, weather conditions (i.e. haze), paint weathering, etc.- to draw any firm conclusions. Mike Czibovic Corsair Armada Productions -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Bruce Buchner" Subject: USS Lloyd (APD-63) Camo The new book from the Naval Inst. Press, The Buckley Class Destroyer Escorts by Franklin has a picture of the port side Lloyd in the green sploched camo along with a copy of the official pattern for the port side to show how well they matched. Does anyone know where I can get the rest of the pattern for the starboard side and the deck if it was patterned? I am building the Iron Shipwrights kit and want to do it in this pattern. Thanks in advance for assistance, Bruce Buchner -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Marc Flake Subject: Re: Air Group 4 colors Kyrre, I, too, found the photo of the SBD over the Skerries on the Air Group 4 website. Then I noticed the same photo next to the picture I was looking at in SBDs in Action. The problem with photos in publications is that you have to trust the editor who wrote the caption to put the right date on it. The photo of SBDs in February 1944, could well have been in February 1943. Something else to muck up the waters, I may have found some evidence that there was part of another air group (9) aboard the Ranger during this period. Later, when Ranger became a training carrier, Air Group 4 was posted to the Essex (CV-9). Could it be possible that elements of Air Group 9 carried the newer paint scheme, while Air Group 4 kept the old style scheme? The plot thickens. Marc Flake Tarrant County Texas (Where its warm and sunny) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Mike Settle Subject: Re: Paint bottle markings anyone? >> Great idea on marking paint bottles. Now, what has this crew of experts discovered for replacing the inner-lid seals to try and preserve "bottled" paint??? By the way, has anyone noticed the new formula Humbrol enamels seem to lack the shelf-life of previous versions?? I've still got useful tins of the really early "military" paints which, while looking useless in the tin, "restore" to life quite well with sufficiently patient stirring. << Here's what I do, and it works well for me. The first time I open a bottle of paint, I thoroughly clean out the lid and the threads on the bottle with the appropriate thinner. Before replacing the lid, I place a square of aluminum foil on the bottle. I use plain old household aluminum foil for this, stolen from the wife's supply in the kitchen. The foil is thin enough that it does not prevent the lid from closing tight on the bottle. The lid then stays clean, and the foil is easy to replace when the paint is next used. I usually make up 30 or 40 of these squares at one time so I have plenty on hand. Start with a couple of feet of foil and cut it into strips with scissors. After you get several strips, lay them on top of each other and cut again. I mostly use Testors Model Master or Acryl paint, so I make mine about 1 1/2 inches square. Also, unlike the other suggestions on identifying the color, the first time I use the paint I just paint the top of the lid with the color. Mike Settle I am not agent #1908 of the non-existent Lumber Cartel (tinlc)tm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Mike Settle Subject: Re: Carley float straps >> What would be a good source of material to use for carley float straps(tie-downs) in 600 scale? I would prefer to use something more flexible than PE brass, and not as round as stretched sprue. << Hi, Keith, Can you get the flat Evergreen styrene strips up there in the rainy Northwest? If not, contact me off list. These come as small as .010 X .020 inch. You could always stretch it like sprue to make it even smaller. Mike Settle I am not agent #1908 of the non-existent Lumber Cartel (tinlc)tm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Michael Eisenstadt Subject: Model Shipways Paints: Review Folks: A few days ago someone posted a query about Model Shipways new line of Marine Colors. I recently purchased a number of bottles of these; here are my initial impressions. I purchased the following colors: Royal Navy AP507A, AP507C, B5, B6, Western Approaches Blue, Western Approaches Green, and U.S. Navy 5-NG (Navy Green), 5-OG (Ocean Green), and 20G (Deck Green). I produced chips of these colors by painting them on white index cards. The RN colors in general tracked very closely to the Short and Snyder color chips. However, the U.S. Navy greens did not fare so well. In particular, 5-OG only vaguely approximated the color on the S&S chip. Model Shipways has produced what looks to my eyes to be a chromate green, rather than an olive-type green for 5-OG. I then brush painted some Model Shipways AP507C on an old discarded ship hull. The paints come very thick, and need to be thinned, whether one intends to apply the paint using a paint brush or an air brush. I experimented thinning the paint with isopropyl (rubbing) alchohol, denatured alchohol, and water. Thinning the paint with either type of alchohol seemed to work better, and it produced a slightly smoother, more consistent finish than thinning with water. I painted the foc's'le of the hull with the Model Shipways paint, and had to use two thin coats, since the paint didn't cover well in one coat. After two applications, however, it produced a nice, even finish. I then painted an adjacent section of the deck with a Polly Scale paint (one of their RLM light grays with a little white added). As always, the Polly Scale paint covered nicely in one coat, though a light second application wouldn't have hurt. However, after the paint dried, I noticed a slight difference between the two areas. The Model Shipways paint definitely has a slight "grainy" finish, though this is discernable only if you look very, very, very closely. By contrast, Polly Scale dries satin smooth. I looked at color chips I had created by brushing Polly Scale and Model Shipways paints onto white index cards, and noticed the same. I then ran my fingers over the dried paint on the index cards, and it was clear: the Polly Scale paint felt smooth, almost like a polished surface, whereas the Model Shipways paint felt slightly gritty, like very, very fine polishing paper. Apparently, Model Shipways is using pigments which are not as finely ground as those used by other model paint companies. Should this stop one from using these paints? That's a personal call. For many people, the fact that reasonably close approximations of various USN and RN colors are availabe out of the bottle will be the clincher. Moreover, the "grittyness" of the paint is only apparent when one looks very, very closely at the painted surface. For many people, the difference will probably be hard to perceive. I would be interested if other SMMLies have used Model Shipways paints, and the results they obtained. In particular, has anyone tried airbrushing these paints? What were the results? Best wishes, Mike Eisenstadt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Michael Eisenstadt Subject: Mixing to Match S&S Color Chips Folks: I offer this as a new year's resolution for all SMMLies out there: in the coming year, let's see how many colors from the Short and Snyder Color Chip sets we can match with various modeling paints. Those of you who have been mixing your own matches using various modeling paints (Humbrol, Polly Scale, Tamiya, or whatever), share your formulas with the rest of us! Dimi, how has your effort to match the color chips with Humbrol paints been going? Let's see if by 2001, we can have working formulas for Acrylic and Enamel paints for all the colors in the S&S color ship sets! To get the ball rolling, I hereby provide the tentative results of my initial efforts to match several Royal Navy colors using the S&S color chips and Polly Scale paints. I don't have precise proportions at this time, though it should not be very difficult to replicate my results, which I think were quite good, by mixing "by eye." A bit of trial and error will be required, since the paints often darken when they dry, but I think this provides the basis for a fair start. AP507A: Polly Scale Night Black (RLM 22) lightened with Polly Scale White (RLM 21), and with just a touch of Polly Scale C&O Enchantment Blue (one of their railroad colors) added. AP507C: Polly Scale White (RLM 21) darkened with Polly Scale Night Black (RLM 22). B5: Polly Scale US Intermediate Blue A/N608 lightened with Polly Scale White (RLM 21). I'll provide additional matches as they become available, and look forward to seeing more postings on SMML on this subject in the coming year! Best wishes, Michael Eisenstadt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Erhardtsen" Subject: Re: Nautical Nomenclature >> Mike asked about the origins of Nautical Nomenclature. I'll weigh in on Port and Starboard. In the olden days of wooden ships - way back before plastic - the stearing board [rudder] was commonly mounted on the right side of the after hull. Look at the Viking Longboats for an example. Knowing how sailors often slur their speech after a few nips of grog - the stearing board became the starboard. << "Starboard" - in danish - "styrbord" - means - "stearing board /stearing side" "port or larboard" is in danish "bagbord" - bag means back. (perhaps the backside to the helmsman on the viking ship) Sailors language got international - and ther was a time when the danish navy was the 2. biggest in the world. (the british was 10 time as big, and had destroyed Napoleons fleet) Erik Erhardtsen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume