Subject: SMML VOL 782 Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 01:41:18 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Info on T 23 please... 2: Re: Correcting bent PE 3: Re: USS WARD Colors 4: Trying to identify 2 destroyers. 5: 5" guns in 1:700 6: Soviet WW2 CA Kirov 7: Sprung PE 8: Fireworks 9: Rodney blast bags 10: T-23 11: Re: HMS Sheffield 12: Special thanks 13: Re: Japanese and R/N Paint Colors 14: Re: Sheffield camou Dec 1942 15: Re: Rodney's blast bags 16: Re: Sprung PE 17: 2 questions 18: USS TEXAS 19: WWII Surcouf Submarine 20: Re: Foxtrot and Juliett 21: Re: Juneau 22: Whose Ships Are Best? 23: Even more FRAMquestions 24: Perry Class answers 25: USN Superiority - by blow 26: Ticonderoga class cruisers 27: My old ladies.... 28: Ships in action in Operation Weserübung 29: Re: Perry Class 30: it's not all about industry 31: DESTROY Brand 32: Information 33: Re: Who's ships are best 34: Re: Soviet Foxtrot & Juliett Class Submarines 35: Re: ESSEX Class Book 36: Re: Perry Class Non Skid 37: Waterline Marking Guage 38: Room Temperature Vulcanizing rubber 39: Best Navy Thread 40: Aircraft questions -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: IPMS Metro meeting this week 2: New Items In From Pacific Front 3: NEW BOOK on BUCKLEY CLASS DESTROYER ESCORTS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "David C. Maschino" Subject: Re: Info on T 23 please... >> I bought the Heller 1:400 T23 the other day thinking references would be easypeasy to find on the web. Bummer. Not a thing. << Try: http://hera.mni.fh-giessen.de/~hg6339/Data/de/tb/cT1939.htm for some line drawings of the T23 and others of the class. Also their operational history is given. Hope this helps! David C. Maschino -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Correcting bent PE >> I've read a lot about how to bend PE, but nothing on how to make it lie flat again (there's a seaplane catapult located in the entire span of the sprung area that reallly does need to be flat again). Any suggestions on how to deal with this, or am I going to have to wait and work the problem when I build the kit? << You can partially correct the problem by placing the brass with the bow up and using a rolling pin on a cushioned surface. Put as much weight as needed to correct the problem. Even if the parts are slightly bowed, they will work just fine once applied to the model. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: USS WARD Colors >> WARD is depicted in this same scheme, with the masts and upper stacks in Haze Gray and everything below in Navy Blue. The profile in "USS Ward: The First Shot" (Leeward Publications 1977) shows solid Navy Blue and describes it as Measure 21, but then I noticed that Measure 21 didn't come out until the June 1942 revision to SHIPS-2! Could it be that we should interpret that to mean Measure 11 was altered to replace Sea Blue with Navy Blue but the name remained the same? << Those who read Alan Raven's USN camouflage series in PSM will recall that there were variants of Measure 1. One of these, Measure 1C, substituted Navy Blue 5-N for Dark Gray 5-D, while retaining the Light Gray on topmasts. That would account for ships so painted at Pearl Harbor. As for ships in overall Navy Blue, as I've mentioned before the Pacific Fleet had dropped the use of Sea Blue 5-S in October 1941, following the lead of the Atlantic Fleet. Ships repainted in overall Navy Blue may (emphasis on may) still have been referred to as Measure 11. However, the June 1942 Ships-2 revision that officially introduced Measure 21 also makes it clear that Measure 21 was already in use in the Pacific under that name. So ships in overall 5-N at Pearl Harbor may have indeed been in "Measure 21". John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Les Pickstock Subject: Trying to identify 2 destroyers. Over the Christmas break I was shown a letter sent to an In-law's Father. The letter was written by a soldier in the 4th Coy, 2nd Batt, Coldstream Guards who describes being sent to Holland in June/July 1940 to assist the evacuation of the Dutch Royal family and the British Legation. The letter mentions that they were be taken off by destroyer but the first to be sent was damaged by enemy air attack and had to be towed away. The second destroyer sucessfully evacuated all involved. Does anyone know which destroyers were involved. On a humorous note the letter records that one of the guardsmen give a sailor his handgrenades which he feared would be dangerous should they be torpedoed, he then settled down and lit a cigarette only to be told not to smoke while sat on the 4" gun ready-use locker. Les Pickstock. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: GrafSpee34@aol.com Subject: 5" guns in 1:700 >> The DML and Dragon kits (which I believe are from the same molds) seem to have an odd shape to the main armament, the 5" 38 cal guns. I couldn't open the Matchbox kit << Yes, I was wondering this myself. How do the Matchbox Atlanta cruiser twin 5" guns look? Are they accurate? Matchbox's Fletcher has very nice single gun mounts, which are way better than Tamiya's (too small) and Skywave's (blobs). The only decent twin 5" mount in 1:700 I have seen came in the Albatross Gearing. Hasegawa's and Skywave's and Dragon's are complete crap. Shame on Skywave for copying Hasegawa and incorporating the same incorrect and really ugly proportions. Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Tirpitz70@webtv.net (Rich Hahn) Subject: Soviet WW2 CA Kirov Hello, I am planning on making a model of Kirov using the Viking Forge 1/2400 kit. I know almost nothing about the ship, aside from seeing a picture of it in Whitley's German Cruisers book and thinking it looks cool. Can someone provide any general info on her, i.e. how many were in the class, dimensions, armament, etc. Also, any color ideas? Thanks and everyone have a great New Year! Best Wishes, Rich Hahn Bensalem, PA Hi Rich, I'll set the ball rolling here. All info is from Whitley's "Cruisers of WW2" There were 6 in the class - Kirov, Voroshilov, Maksim Gorky, Molotov, Kaganovich & Kalnin. Lenght: 628' 8"/191.4m OA 584'/178m PP 613'4"/187m WL Beam: 57'11"/17.72m Armanent: nine 7.1" (3x3), six3.9"(6x1) six 45mm AA (6x1), four 0.5 mgs Mines: 90 Torpedos: six 21" (2x3) Two aircraft, one catapult. Cheers, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Loren Perry Subject: Sprung PE Regarding the mail-damaged photoetched detail sets mentioned Wednesday, Gold Medal Models will replace any such damaged set, no questions asked, upon receipt of same from the customer. If you have received a mail-dinged PE set from us, you may return it for an immediate replacement. We very rarely hear about such incidents (thank goodness) but we know it happens now and then. I imagine that there have been occasions where a customer received a mail-damaged set but never said anything, and simply made repairs instead. Sometimes repairs aren't possible and this is when we hear about it. We understand and will help you out when you need it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Fireworks Hi All Many thanks to those who responded to my posting re the above. I'm probably not going to bother after all as I'm not sure I could get the standard of accuracy I would want. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Rodney blast bags Hi Mike I quite agree Chris Drage has produced a masterpiece. In response to your question, Rodney and Nelson never had blast bags on either their main or secondary armament. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: T-23 Hi Kyrre T-23 was a type 39 torpedo boat, laid down in 1940 and completed 14.6.42. Her service career was 6/42-10/42 Training and trials in the baltic 11/42-1/44 Western France (4th Flotilla at Brest) 2/44-6/44 Refit at Bremen 7/44-9/44 Gulf of Finland 10/44-11/44 Docked at Danzig and Gotenhafen for repairs and re-arming 12/44-5/45 Baltic In 1945 she was transferred to the French Navy and was named Alsace and then Alsacien. Finally sold for scrap in February 1955. T-24 was also of the same type so apart from detail differences they would be the same. The reference you need to find is M J Whitley's 'Destroyer' his excellent and complete history of all Germany's WW2 destroyers and torpedo boats. T-23 had quite an illustrious career being involved in several actions in the channel including the sinking of the cruiser Charybdis and the action with Emerald and Glasgow (she escaped). Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Mitsuaki Kubota Subject: Re: HMS Sheffield Hi Keith, HMS Sheffield was refitted and repainted in three-colored disruptive scheme in July 1942. Colors were 507A, 507C and B5. She had been panted in complex six-colored early disruptive scheme before. Colors were MS1, MS2, B5, 507A, 507C and white. Surely some ships had been repainted frequently, but I can't imagine that she had been repainted within 5 months. So I suppose she had worn same pattern as repainted in July. If you have Ensign 5 or Man o' War 5, please check 18, 19, 22 and 23pp. But don't refer my Sheffield page. (http://www.hig.tocolo.or.jp/hmdock/ships/shefcl.html) My work is far from perfect! Oddly, in November 1942 HMS Glasgow had worn almost same pattern that Sheffield had worn, although colors were different. Glasgow was painted in 507A, B5 and white. Best regards, Mitsuaki Kubota -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: JRuotsala@aol.com Subject: Special thanks A very special thanks to Tom Daugherty and Mike Settle for the information on the Polly paints. Thank you very much, Cheers, Jim Ruotsala -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Re: Japanese and R/N Paint Colors Quite inspirational.. really! >> As for having a sample of pre-war Japanese lino, this would not be as accurate as having a sample of the actual pre-war Nestles bar. So the latter is what you should strive to locate. There must be somebody on this list with such a sample, WELL? << Well, it sounds like the man got his whisky and cigars back... I see that flash of madness, inspiration, or genius, perhaps, .. more's to the point, we'd all like to know what that new Flower Class book looks like... is the man happy?? Cheers! Caroline http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models White Ensign Models HUH!!! Even finding the pre-war bar would be no good. Chocolate changes colour with age, becoming lighter and eventually "flaking" (those white flecks you sometimes see). Better by far to use Mistress Lorna's approach. Eat a block of chocolate and paint the surface in question with your "best guess". Even though it may not be strictly accurate, the endorphins released by the chocolate will ensure you don't care ;-)) Lorna -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Re: Sheffield camou Dec 1942 Hi Keith, Re the camou pattern she wore in Dec 1942, it was a simplified disruptive scheme.. both port and starboard views are shown in Raven and Roberts' Ensign 5 Town Class Cruisers (opens absolutely spankingly-mint-and-extremely valuable tome..). Right in the middle.. pretty piccy.. AP 507A, AP 507C and B5. E-Mail me if you would like me to scan-and- E-Mail you the pix (guess that nice Mr Raven won't mind too much..) BTW, we KNOW that these colours are spot-on accurately produced in the Snyder and Short Paint Chips RN Set One. Use them to create an accurate match with your favourite paints. Best Regards Caroline Carter http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models White Ensign Models, -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Re: Rodney's blast bags Hi Mike Glad you liked the Rodney/Warspite feature. Thanks for the nice comments. >> What happened to the blast bags on the main armament on the HMS Rodney? << Well, neither Rodney or Nelson ever carried blast bags on their main armament, nor their secondary armament, according to our references... Best Regards Caroline Looking forward to Chris's next offering! http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models White Ensign Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Re: Sprung PE Derek, I assume we are looking at a steel p.e. set here? Well, first off, contact the maunufacturer.. they will usually replace damaged goods with out question (over here if stuff gets damaged, we can claim up to 20 pounds damage compensation anyhoe without any extra insurance being paid.). Failing that, you could try heating the set up with a blowtorch until it glows a dull red, then letting it cool (if under 15, get a responsible adult to do this for you.. just covering my back!).. this does make the metal that much more malleable and easier to straighten.. and easier to work in fact.. Good Luck! Caroline http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models White Ensign Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Mike Connelley Subject: 2 questions Howdy: Two questions for the populace this morning. 1) Who or what was the HMS Hood named after? 2) In looking at photos of the Missouri with her Ms32/22d dazzle scheme, I noticed that the insides of the 40mm quad tubs on the stern and on the turrets are darker than the surrounding deck camo color (generally ocean gray) and looks darker than the deck blue. I found one photo in the Warship page Archives and I don't remember where the other came from. I don't think it's a shadow as it appears the Sun wasn't that low in the sky judging from the shadow of the Mo's tower. I was wondering if anyone knows what's the deal here...if the bottoms of these tubs were painted deck blue or perhaps some other color? Cheers Mike Connelley -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Russell Smith" Subject: USS TEXAS Back in May I bought one of Vikings 1/700 Texas models the hull was rough but I figured I could fix it. I still can but there are no parts for the main mast, no gun tubs or directors, but most importantly no 5" guns or 3" guns. I have tried contacting Viking (No Answer yet!) and I can make all the parts from scratch useing CW's book on the Texas except the guns and I don't have spare 5" singles or 3" does know where I can get some? Russ Smith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "FCR" Subject: WWII Surcouf Submarine Hello to all I am almost to get my hands on the Heller 1/400 Surcouf Submarine but unfortunately I don't have a single photo or information about it. Can anyone tell me references, websites, articles or send photos to me. Thanks in advance Filipe Ramires PORTUGAL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "FCR" Subject: Re: Foxtrot and Juliett Hello Gary I have a few pictures of the Foxtrots and of the Juliett class submarines but only a couple are taken close in the submarine. Contact me off line if you want the scans of this images. Good-Bye Filipe Ramires PORTUGAL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "FCR" Subject: Re: Juneau Hello Paul I have two Atlanta class CLAA, one from the Matchbox and the other from Skywave. Well, the model from Matchbox is something that no one recommends, everything on the model is exagerate and detailless, but still have a low price and if you like to spare a few more hundred hours on it just buy it. The Skywave model is the best model for this ship, in plastic, it had almost the details and with one or two sets of photo-etch, and some modeler care it turns to a wonderful piece of model. The Dragon/DML and Revell have the same model from Skywave, they are identical copies of it. The Revell model is less expensive then the Skywave and the Dragon. But, none of the models represents he CL Juneau, Matchbox had the USS San Diego, the Skywave had the USS Atlanta and USS San Diego and the Revell had the USS San Juan, USS Oakland and USS Flint. Remember, there were two subclasses in this class and Juneau made part of the first one. There are a few differences between all the ships that you might want to look at. Happy Modeling Filipe Ramires PORTUGAL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Leslie Brown" Subject: Whose Ships Are Best? If there is no doubt that the US is the best, why did the US Navy come to the UK for the basic design of their Cyclone Class and the USCG for the basic design of their Island Class. Both designs were provided by Vosper Thornycroft (UK) Ltd, with the detailed design being carried out and the vessels built by Bollinger Shipyards, with support from VT? Regards Les Brown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Joe Costanzo Subject: Even more FRAMquestions Well, I have finally decided which FRAM ship I am modelling, USS Glennon DD 840. My questions are directed to the squadron insignia displayed prominently on the forward deckhouse. 1) How can I find out which squadrons Glennon served in, particularly in the mid to late sixties? 2) If I can find out, where would I get the squadron insignia decals? I have no facilities for making these at home. Would any decal set offer such a specific marking? Thanks in advance. Joe Costanzo -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "Ramses Martinez" Subject: Perry Class answers As somebody who was onboard a two Perry Class frigates (USS GALLERY FFG-26, USS FARHION FFG-22) for four years I can assure you that almost every horizontal surface was covered with non-skid. There were two types, the course type used for the helo deck, hangars, forecastle, the missile launcher, and all weather decks, this type could only be applied by a shipyard. The other type of non skid consisted of small adhesive strips (8'' x 24''), these were placed usually in front of doorways at the bottom and to of ladders, they were almost always used inside the ship. Ramses Martinez -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "Phil Gollin" Subject: USN Superiority - by blow As part of the rather spurious discussion on "best" versus "most powerful" navies (I know the difference even if many others don't) a couple of rather strange spurious points came up which I rather reluctantly would like to challenge, as I would prefer to let the whole thing die. First is the idea that it was American industrial might that determined the war in the west. I would never deny the importance of the supply material to the war, however, any sensible analysis shows that the war was won by Russian blood. What would have happened if the US lend-lease material hadn't been poured in is problematic, but it is unlikely that the Russians would have been defeated. One analysis has it the the war was won by; "Russian Blood, British Brains and American Brawn". This is not to minimise any countries involvement or losses, but it does quite succiently sum-up the war to me. Second is the idea that the Battle of the Atlantic was won by American production capacity, including Escort Carriers. The Battle was "essentially" won by the end of May 1943, the major factors being sufficient escorts, code-breaking and complete air-cover, being completed by the addition of a few Very long range Liberators. Again, this is not to disparrage the later battles and continuous escorting which helped the build-up of material for the second-front, which was only possible by the addition of so many more ships, built mainly in America. The idea that you could have just run more and more ships loosing more and more takes sanity to its limits. As it was, there were serious problems in the run-up to D-Day by the poor control of logistics in the Pacific, whereby hundreds of ships were sitting around, whereas Europe was short of supplies. Sorry to continue some bad themes, but some sanity must be brought to bear. Phil -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: "graham" Subject: Ticonderoga class cruisers Hi all I have received the above kit (Revel 1/700) does anyone know if it is accurate, as I do not have much info on this class, also what is the best photo etch to use, and Humbrol colours to use :) Btw the kit looks very good its along time since I have done anything modern. best wishes graham -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: "Chris Drage" Subject: My old ladies.... Hi Mike, Pleased that you like my latest. It takes a long time when you only have the odd moment at weekends and during half term breaks to build a dio like this one. Mike asked: >> What happened to the blast bags on the main armament on the HMS Rodney? << It's a good point. You would expect blast bags on Rodney. But Mike's question points out the absolute need to consult photographs if you are going to build a half-accurate model. In Rodney's case no one photo revealed any blast bags on her armament during the time of the invasion. A good drawing only tells half the picture in terms of a warship's WWII fit. There were changes made at every refit! Only a good dated photo will provide the necessary evidence. Here, the IWM photographic service is invaluable. Regards, Chris He tao rakau e taea te karo, tena he tao kupa kaore e taea te karo......(Te Reo Maori) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: "Jens H. Brandal" Subject: Ships in action in Operation Weserübung Our local modelling club have decided to put up a branch display with the theme "The invasion of Norway", but we are planning to expand on the theme as time allows. Also relevant will be aircraft, armour, ships, figures that saw action at this time or immediately preceding the invasion. I learned of a Ju88 that had seen combat with British aircraft over the North Sea at the 3rd of April 1940, which made an emergency landing at Forus. With this in mind, the HMS Cossack and Altmark would be of interest too. With the knowledgeable resources this list is, can anyone help with respect to suggestions for suitable subjects (E-boats?) and representations of these in model form? I would prefer as many alternatives as possible. Since a lot of people know about Blücher, I am thinking of making this one in 1:400 from Heller's Admiral Hipper even though I know there is a caricature in 1:720 from Revell. If my memory serves me right, the Lützow was damaged in the assault too? Italeri's kit in 1:720 or Heller's 1:400 - right? Also, I believe the cruisers Köln and Emden and Königsberg also took part, and these are represented in 1:700 by Samek. WEM would probably have the Cossack in 1:700 and 1:350, in addition to Airfix' 1:600 and Revell's 1:720? Any other suggestions? I am sorry for such a wide question, but I don't have many history books on the subject (yes, I know, shame on me) and I just got back from the club meeting where I volunteered to coordinate the ship part of the display - to be finished by the 9th of April... Jens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: Perry Class Hi Guys I had the chance to visit two Perry Class FFG's the Simpson and the Clark and their decks are all non skid material in the past 10 yrs. Now I don't know about the walk ways on the masts they were off limits. I believe below the non skid material the Perry Class FFG are steel decked. Because rust was coming thru the non skid material on the Simpson FFG-56 at the time of her port of call. Now about this debate our USN superiority, the ships maybe well designed but people manned ships. If a person is properly trained and lead that's 9/10 of the deal just look at Argentina in the Falkland Islands. Or North Vietnam. So the USN is strong but how the navy is used will effect the results in the situation never assume. You know what assume means. Craig Bennett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 30) From: "Lars Orloff" Subject: it's not all about industry Edward, You make excellent points about the importance of industrial might in warfare, but I feel you must lend equal weight to such factors as technology, training, leadership, strategic and tactical employment, luck, and a host of other intangibles. The American Revolution is a counter-example to your argument, and the American Civil War easily could have been. Despite Germany's industrial power, her submariners fell behind (for many reasons) in the technological race during the Battle of the Atlantic and this was a significant factor in their ultimate defeat. And then there is Vietnam... Modern warfare is not much different in terms of the importance of national industry. America's industry gives her the ability to deploy fleets around the world, and that is one of its greatest benefits. However, success in a specific theater is not guaranteed by the most ships. Being an officer in the American Navy, I often consider the disadvantages posed by the multi-mission responsibilities of our modern cruisers and destroyers. It is extremely challenging to train a crew to be proficient in battle against surface, air, and undersea threats. Maintaining such proficiencies is even more difficult. In addition, consider strike (Tomahawk missile) operations, amphibious warfare support, maritime interdiction operations, humanitarian operations, counter-drug operations, and a host of other potential employments, and you'll begin to realize how thin (training-wise) our ships are spread. Simply maintaining the proficiency required to safely operate a ship in peacetime (navigation, engineering plant operation and casualty control, helicopter operations, etc.) requires a significant effort. Having said that, it is entirely possible that a non-industrial country with an antiquated military can strike a major blow against an American warship. It only takes one mine or a thirty-year old diesel submarine to sink a ship, and several countries such as Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Great Britain, and even Chile possess formidable coastal forces. You are quite correct in stating that, while we may lose a battle, we have the might to eventually overcome any foe. However, times have changed since conflicts such as WWII, Korea, and even Vietnam. For many reasons, I don't think that the American public of today would suffer the loss of a ship lightly. With exceptions, there is both less of a public understanding of the fact that men and women must die if we are involved militarily in crises abroad and less of a tolerance for the risk of American lives in situations that do not directly threaten our security or interests. Also, the requirement for our military presence abroad, and any combat action involving those forces, is much harder to sell in part because the lines between good and bad are significantly less distinct than they were in WWII and the Cold War. Because of these points, the loss or severe damaging of a single ship might be enough to convince us to pull out of a conflict as did similar losses in Beirut and Somalia. Incidentally, I see remarkable similarities in the American Navy of today and the Royal Navy at the turn of the 18th century. Britain was at the peak of her maritime strength then, but the War of 1812 saw numerous unexpected American frigate victories in single-ship actions. The strength of the English fleet on the North American station was never challenged, but the point was driven home. The Americans won key these victories by fighting the Brits at what was proven to be their weakest point. American naval forces also have weak points, two of the most prominent being mines and submarines, and these are amplified by our focus on shallow water operations. Unfortunately, I feel that the majority of our officer corps don't take these dangers seriously because of the sort of "most powerful navy in the world" arrogance the Brits enjoyed in the 1800's. I hope for my sake and that of my shipmates we aren't forced to acknowledge our limitations as the British were 200 years ago. I hope you don't think I'm criticizing you. Quite the contrary, you make excellent points. I wouldn't have written such a long reply if I didn't find your post interesting. Lars R. H. Orloff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 31) From: Ed Grune Subject: DESTROY Brand Good evening SMMLies: DESTROY is one of the names used by GALAXY (FUJIAN) Toys Co, LTD. It is an unabashed rip-off of the Shanghai Dragon kit. Its in the whole hull configuration. The molding doesn't appear to be as crisp as the Dragon/DML and Skywave versions, however. On the plus side -- its cheaper. I picked one up for less than USD10.00. It costs less -- true. But let the buyer be ware, lest your'e thinking of picking one of these things up and completing it without the benefits of a spare parts box. There is only one sprue of weapons/accessories included versus the two sprues which are in the Dragon/DML/Skywave versions. There are not enough twin 5"/38 mounts to fill the bill. The instructions tell you to use single mounts (no one will notice - trust me!). Besides the Atlanta class CL(AA), the DESTROY line includes a Cannon class DE, a Sovremennyy DDG, and all three flights of the RN Type 42 destroyer. Caveat Emptor Ed Mansfield, TX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 32) From: "David Zimmerman" Subject: Information Dear SMML's Does anyone have the e-mail address for SEA TEC Models or DEAN'S MARINE. I am having trouble getting the model from Sea Tec that I ordered and I would like to see if they will respond to e-mail Thanks David -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 33) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Who's ships are best >> However, the War in the Pacific was of similar weapon system (until the introduction of the bomb). The Atlantic War was of quite different weapon systems - surface ship verus submarine. It is significant that at the Wars end, the type XX1 Uboats, together with target seeking torpedoes, were more than a match for Allied surface combatants. << Just two minor quibbles (Not gonna engage in the "who's got best Navy", Uh, uh, wouldn't be prudent....) One: I think the role of the US (and other) submarine fleets in the Pacific is vastly underrated by many. The US Sub Force, less trhan 2% of the US Navy, sank almost 70% of Japanese merchant shipping, as well as a number of Japanese combatents. Roughly one out of five US WWII submariners, and 52 submarines are still honored as being on "Eternal Patrol". Two: The Type XXI U-boat was never a match for surface ships. Clay Blair made a cogent arguement, based on his inspection of a captured XXI, that their capabilities were overrated (See "Hitler's U-Boat War", Vol 1). They had several problems, including inferior, underpowered diesels, poor fit of sections due to modular construction and (this is a biggie) the placement of virtually the entire hydraulic system (pipes, valves, accumulators) outside of the pressure hull, between the inner and outer hulls. Any damage or problem with the hydraulics was not repairable at sea. Yes, they were an innovative and to some degree revolutionary design, and they get a grade of A for design and a D for execution. The hull shape design, and modified and enlarged snorkels were adapted for later submarine designs with great success. Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 34) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Soviet Foxtrot & Juliett Class Submarines Gary McGee wrote : >> anyone taken detail exterior photographs of these Museum boats? I'm looking for deck and conning tower detail on both vessels,any assistance would be very appreciated. << Gary, let me scout around; I think some of the older SubCommittee Reports may have some details on these classes. Please contact me privately. Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 35) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: ESSEX Class Book The plans are more than half way accurate. The whole book is great - it has stuff never shown before in detail, like the gallery deck openings, which are of different sizes all along the flight deck. Only thing missing from the book is any scale to any of the drawings. Wonder what the publisher was thinking. Eugene -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 36) From: Lisa and Bill Wiseman Subject: Re: Perry Class Non Skid I have the answer for a specific Perry Class Frigate; USS Clifton Sprague (FFG-16). Any deck surface exposed to the weather received a coat of non skid. THis included the platforms on the masts the main weather decks and the flight deck (Helo Deck). Basically, anywhere sailors would walk rec'd a coat of non skid. The Helo deck rec'd a coating very similar, if not identical, to the coating on the flight deck of a CV. The Hangars also had a type of nonskid coating on the decks as well. We ran with several Perry's while I was aboard USS Miller ( A Knox Class). In keeping with the adages from RCT San Diego: if it's a deck and outside, it's non skid. Which goes part and parcel with : If it's dirty, clean it. If it's clean, polish it. If it's polished, keep it that way. and my personal fave: If it moves, salute it. If it don't paint it. Hope this helps Doc Wiseman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 37) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Waterline Marking Guage Model Expo also offers an adjustable Waterline Marker. It's listed in their latest catalog as being on sale for $6.99 (US) (normal $20), item # MX105. It's adjustable from 1.5-in to 11-in. Fly Navy! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar@thenavy.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 38) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Room Temperature Vulcanizing rubber >> Has anybody tried using this metal instead of resin in silicone (RPV) moulds? I have a bit of experience doing this, but keep having trouble with the resin shrinking when cured. Is ordinary white metal too hot for RPV moulds? << Hi; I have cast white metal/pewter in RTV (not RPV) molds. It works, but works best with some kind of spin unit for centrifugal loading. Static "pour molds" don`t seem to fill as well. Be sure to read the stat sheet for your particular RTV. There is a casting and mold making list on OneList. Also check for a company called Romanoff, in (I believe) Massachusetts. Or a company called Conquest Ind. in Whittier, CALIF. Chuck Duggie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 39) From: "John Clements" Subject: Best Navy Thread I have kept quiet during this thread so far, as I thought it all rather pointless (whilst supporting the right of those concerned to make their arguments), but in vol 781 two very good points were made which I want to support: - the quality and experience of the crews and command can count as much as the technology or numbers, a major strength of the RN in the past - major wars, and especially WW2, were won by economic strength as well as by other factors. I would accept that whilst Britain could have survived against Germany in WW2, it could not have won the war without the US coming in. Personally, I think it is all too complicated to come to any clear view on the matter. The question - which navy is best - is too loosely phrased to be capable of being answered with any precision. Best in what way? Best to do what? The outcome of any combat is the result of many interlocking factors, historical, cultural, social, economic - and chance. In what statistically based wargame, would the torpedo have hit the Bismarck and just where it did? Let's call a truce for New Year, accept that there is always room for debate, and hope that all that power and scope for agression in navies worldwide is not called upon. John Clements -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 40) From: Danjessar@aol.com Subject: Aircraft questions Does anyone know of a list similar to this one, but for aircraft questions? I'm about to start on a 1/48 scale DC-3, and need some help. If not, Shane, can I post my questions here and ask for off list replies? Thanks, Dan Schweikert Hi Dan, If you can't find any list that suits you, I can't see any hassles in the above. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: IPMS Metro meeting this week For those of you in the Oklahoma City area, IPMS Metro Oklahoma City chapter will have our monthly meeting. I'd love for anyone interested to come. For all the info you need go to our web site at: http://www.okinfoweb.com/ipmsmetro/index.htm Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Bill Gruner Subject: New Items In From Pacific Front We now have in stock some new Pitroad 1/700 metal aircraft in stock, $14.00 each. These are high quality kits complete with landing gear, decals, etc: MP-28 Boeing RC-135U (1) MP-29 Mig-29 Fulcrum (5) MP-30 Tupolev Tu-16 Badger (1) Clipper Models of Japan has announced some new 1/700 brass gun barrels for WW 2 German and Royal Navy ships. We hope to have these in stock within a couple of weeks. See our complete December UPDATE on our website at: http://www.pacificfront.com Thank you, Bill Gruner Pacific Front Hobbies -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: NEW BOOK on BUCKLEY CLASS DESTROYER ESCORTS Just arriving.. Monday with luck, "BUCKLEY CLASS DESTROYER ESCORTS" by Franklin, published by Chatham (also an USNI title..) Price: 25.00 Pounds plus shipping (surface or air). E-Mail me, Caroline, to place an order. Thanks! http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models White Ensign Models, -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume