Subject: SMML VOL 787 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 23:58:37 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Defective Heavy Cruiser 2: Re: Richelieu and battleship design 3: Potemkin colour scheme 4: USS Indianapolis 5: Re: FLT 2 Arliegh Burke 6: Richelieu & Battleship design 7: Re: Mini-sub in Pearl Harbor 8: Most Decorated Ship 9: Napoleonic Ships in 1/1200 10: Re: Midway decks 11: Re: Midway decks 12: CV Aftermarket Parts 13: Mothballs 14: Museum News 15: Re: Canberras 16: Lifering Color 17: Re: Paint Queries 18: Re: USS Indianapolis and port and starboard 19: Re: Draught Markings, Fletcher Class DD 20: Re: Paint Queries 21: 1:1200 Napoleonic sailing ship kits 22: Re: Revell Essex -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: BOOKS FOR SALE 2: Re: Detailing super carriers 3: Y2K SMML Convention -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Fernando, Yohan" Subject: Re: Defective Heavy Cruiser >> To quote Mr Toppan, "This ship was apparently defective in some way << I think Friedman gives the same limited info about the Oregon City in a photo caption. It would be interesting to find out in what way she was 'defective'. For a ship to be decomissioned so quickly after being commissioned, I would imagine it would have been something quit serious and unfixable like some basic structural defects. Any more information would be very interesting. Yohan Fernando -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Percy, John" Subject: Re: Richelieu and battleship design >> When looking through the book it suddenly struck me the similar configuration with Rodney and Nelson with all the main batteries in front of the bridge and the secondary armament towards the rear. What were the rationale behind this distribution of armament, and why did no other ship classes continue this configuration? << The Main reason, I believe, for this main armament all forward design was that it would enable designers to reduce the length of the armored citadel/main belt and thus save weight on armor. Straousburg and Dunkquere (French ships, forgive the spellings) also had a simliar design to Richelieu (2 turrets with 4 guns each all forward - I think they were 11" or 13" guns). The main reason why not many other ships had this design were: 1) Risk of losing all main guns to 1 turret hit. Richelieu's turret each had a "division wall" between each pair of guns. Not sure how thick it was, but it probably wouldn't protect one side all that much if the other side suffered a hit. 2) Can't fire behind the ships with main guns. To the British (Nelson and Rodney) this was a non-issue, because it was thought that British Battleships should not be running from a fight anyways. 3) Bad arcs of fire. For Richelieu this wasn't too bad, but for Nelson/Rodney, the 3rd turrets arc of fire was severly limited. In addition, it was found that full broadsides could not be done because the backblast actually damaged parts of the ship (on the outside). John Percy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: HST Subject: Potemkin colour scheme Hi SMMLers, I am just beginning to make the ex-Heller Russian battle cruiser Potemkin. I am wondering about the colour scheme, especially of the underwater parts. Can anyone of you help? Many thanks Herwig Strauss, Austria -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Rod Dauteuil Subject: USS Indianapolis I must agree that the Classic Warships Publication "USS Indianapolis" is the best resource for this vessel. It contains photos throughout the Indy's service, along with drawings showing the general arrangement at times of overhaul. You can follow the drawings and see how the armament increased over the years, which necessitated the Navy lightening the ship by removing one catapult. The reason I have the book, you may ask? I am planning to scratchbuild this ship in 1/144 scale (Get ready John at USNSM!). That's after I complete my USS Enterprise CVN65 in 1/144 scale. Length: 90+ inches. Width: 20+ inches. Laid down: 08-Jan-2000. Does anybody have any A6 Intruders, A7 Corsairs, or E2 Hawkeyes in 1/144 scale they're willing to part with? I know they were produced in the past, but alas, not anymore. Please contact me off-list if you have any or know of any sources. Rod. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: FLT 2 Arliegh Burke >> I would like to buy a Flight IIA Burke. Is only 1/350 resin kit available? Does anyone want to sell his un-bulit kit to me? I try to order the 1/350 resin kit but it always out of stock and I am still looking for it? << Gary, I would assume you have tried Pacific Front Hobbies as well as Squadron Signal mail order. Try the MB Models web site at: http://navismagazine.com/bwn-sale/bwn-sale.htm If they can't help you, I have a FLT 2 Burke I may consider parting with. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Richelieu & Battleship design Hi Jens Richelieu was based on the Nelson design. The original reason for Nelson/Rodney being the configuration they were was to keep the armoured citadel as short as possible. This allowed a large amount of armour and 16" guns in a 35,000 ton ship and in fact they were the heaviest armoured battleships of their day. The French were quite taken by this idea and copied it for the Dunkerque and Strasbourg and Richelieu and Jean Bart. However, the third ship of the class (Clemenceau) would have had her turrets fore and aft. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Kenneth H. Goldman" Subject: Re: Mini-sub in Pearl Harbor I tried to put the mini sub attack in perspective in the November '99 Navismagazine in an article about my 1:350 Ko-Hyoteki diorama. All five Ko-Hyoteki submarines to attack Pearl Harbor are accounted for. Ward got one before it launched torpedoes. Monaghan got one after evading one of its torpedoes, the other missed Curtiss. St. Louis evaded a pair of torpedoes and then sank the sub when it broached. The remaining two Ko-Hyotekis were recovered intact, with torpedoes aboard after the attack - one in 1960. It seems likely that the torpedoes launched by the mini sunk by St. Louis were the one's captured on film from the Kate. The best book on this subject is ADVANCE FORCE PEARL HARBOR by Burl Burlingame, published by Pacific Monograph. Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER http://www.wman.com/~khgold/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Most Decorated Ship Jervis saw more action in one year alone (1941), than Warspite did in the entire war. Decorations specorations, it's the amount of combat. Jervis is the KING! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Miguel Costa" Subject: Napoleonic Ships in 1/1200 Hello: For me the best sailing napoleonic ships with difference are the ones of Rod Langton from Langton Miniatures, the detail is outstanding they have a nice web site: http://www.rodlangton.com They have a Sloop and a Frigate in 1/300 with photoetched that are fantastic. If you need more about napoleonic ships, i have many information and plans, please contact me via e mail mcosta@jet.es Bye from Mallorca, Balearic Islands, Spain "One Place Five Islands" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: Midway decks Hi Guys About the USS Midway's Flight deck matieral,the Midway was designed with a steel deck due to the USN inspection in 1941 to the H.M.S. Illustrious repair at Norfolk, VA where the value of her steel deck saved her from the Luftwaffa in the Mediteerean after a severe dive bombing attack. Craig Bennett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Darren Scannell Subject: Re: Midway decks Mark Krumrey wrote: >> In one of my references, and I don't know which one right now, I remember reading that the Midways were originally wooden flight decks, but early in their career they were replaced with steel. << I'm not an expert, but I have been looking through some old Warship Internationals recently and I came across an article in WI # 2 1975 written by R.M. Anderson that talks about US designers going over the damaged HMS ILLUSTRIOUS at Norfolk in 1941 after she was hit by 1000lb Stuka bombs. They were impressed that the armoured deck prevented her from being sunk and determined to create an armoured carrier from that point onward that became the MIDWAY's. They also decided to use side armour because of HMS GLORIOUS being destroyed by SCHARNHORST and GNEISENAU. The article also points out that due to the limited number of graving docks, the MONTANA'S were dropped in favour of the MIDWAY's building program. Interesting reading. Darren Scannell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: CV Aftermarket Parts Tony asked: >> Also does anyone know of a good set of modern US aircraft to place on the flight deck. Also does anyone know of a brass set for the Revell-Germany (Skywave) USS Independence (CVL-22) << Skywave has a couple of sets of contemporary aircraft (F-14, F/A-18, and various helos) molded in clear plastic. Tom's Modelworks does a 1/700 photoetched set for CVE and CVL kits. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Mothballs >> So until the early 1960s, mothballed ships looked pretty good. After about 1965 or so, when the money dried up, their appearance started downhill. Weathered paint and lots of rust became the norm. Sad, but a fact of life. << While budgetary considerations do count, what happens when a (USN) ship is mothballed largely depends on whether or not it is realistically expected to see active service again. A carrier or battleship that is waiting for the scrap heap will quickly look like a derelict. On the other hand, as of a few years ago there were several decommissioned KNOX-class ships in storage at the ex-Philadelphia Navy Yard. These were being kept in immaculate condition and freshly painted - even the hull numbers and draft marks - in anticipation of foreign delivery. Some of them have been transferred (via tow) to Taiwan in the past year. A recent book on the subject is "Forgotten Fleet: The Mothball Navy" by Daniel Masdsen (Naval Institute Press 1999). Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Museum News The Navy Museum at the Washington Navy Yard has closed for about six months to undergo building renovations. A new exhibit, "Korea 1950-53: The Navy in the Forgotten War" will be housed in Building 70 but the opening date was not stated. Ex-USS BARRY remains open to the public. More information can be found at: http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/new/news99-5.htm The Hampton Roads Naval Museum in Norfolk, Virginia, now has a web site at: http://www.hrnm.navy.mil and a downloadable copy of its magazine "The Daybook" is available there as well. Mike Alexandria, VA USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: TDETWEIL Subject: Re: Canberras Sam Pullig mentioned Canberras-When I was a kid, the Air National Guard in Michigan flew them out of the National Guard base out at Fort Custer, near Battle Creek Michigan. They were overhead a lot and used to come in low over the house; those engines made a hell of a noise and always impressed us kids. I think we all build models of them, but I'm sure mine met its fate with pyrotechnics long ago. (Weep, weep). I had friends at the base later in life, so got lots of close-up visits and sat in the pilot's seat once, too. They could fly quite slow on approach and that probably had particular strategic value at the time as well. Tom Detweiler, Rocklin CA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Lifering Color >> Does anyone know the colors of WWII-vintage USN shipboard ring-type life preservers? Were they standard Navy haze gray or International Orange? << Pre-war photos of crew members posing with liferings indicate they were white. Probably painted in wartime to match whatever the adjacent bulkhead color was. Orange most likely came into use in the 1960s. Modern USN liferings are unpainted orange hard styrofoam-type material with white nylon lines attached to an orange plastic strobe light. Mike L Alexandria, VA USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Sean D. Hert" Subject: Re: Paint Queries S&S, Can you give us a new timetable for the Regia Marina set? Thanks, -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Jowfx@cs.com Subject: Re: USS Indianapolis and port and starboard I wrote >> For instance, the kit has single 20 mms and only the starboard side catapult with Seahawk planes. When the Indy was overhauled for the last time, she traded in her singles for twins and landed her port side catapult and her SOC Seagulls << I meant to say she had her port catapult and landed her starboard. No wonder I seem to be coming when I should be going! John Fox -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: SCALSHPYRD@aol.com Subject: Re: Draught Markings, Fletcher Class DD Most ships have a set of draft marks that will also indicate the distance from the bottom of the screws and or Sonar Dome in the case of modern destroyers. The Spruance class destroyers have 2 sets of draft marks forward, one for the base line and one for the depth of the bottom of the sonar dome. This would also be true for thre Burke class destroyers and the Ticonderoga class cruisers. In the case of the Iowa class battleships, the boot top (black stripe) is 7 feet deep at the bow and only 3 feet at the stern. the draft marks are the same at both bow & stern as well as amidships. Lee Upshaw The Scale Shipyard -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Paint Queries >> I heard that S or S dived on the Manchester, raided the paint locker, and guess what? It was full of Mountbatten Pink. What about Burdock Blue? Have they got that? << Now you've let the cat out of the bag!!! The paint was reward enough, but then we managed to locate the rum ration... As to Burdock Blue, we're working on it! John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The (decompressing) Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: 1:1200 Napoleonic sailing ship kits Hi; You mentioned GHQ (excellent), Navwar (fair), and Triton (good). There is one more manufacturer you should know about, Langton Miniatures. Langton makes great 1:1200 ancient, Anglo-Dutch, ACW, and Napoleonic miniatures. His lines include buildings, fortifications, shore batteries, and city walls. He makes pieces to do the harbor and city of Toulon during the Napoleonic wars. His Napoleonic ships come with hull and rigging as seperate packs. This is because he has NINE different sail,settings available, from bare poles to every scrap of sail available. The Anglo-Dutch ships come with photo-etched sails, which I hope he will add for the Napoleonic ships. Also available are 1:300 models of Napoleonic ships, ancient ships, and some WWI torpedo craft. Look for him in the manufacturers list at: http://theminiaturespage.com Chuck Duggie Wargamer, modeler, and naval enthusiast. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Re: Revell Essex Michael... Thanks for all the info. My only guess about the Oriskany's odd-ball dimentions is that - unlike the earlier Essexes - she was completed as a -27A (with wider blisters?) from the get go. All my sources state she was both wider and longer than the earlier ships as initially completed, and shorter (but still wider) than the earlier ships after her -125A refit. Now why she ended up shorter...??? SWAG, but maybe it had something to do with her bow and stern gun tubs (both of which were removed after the refit), or perhaps it's linked to the different shape of her flight deck (which again was wider than the earlier -125 ships). Lots of questions, and thus far not many answers. Somehow, I just knew that hull was going to be a RPITA! As far as starting with a Lindberg kit...??? Letmesee, what am I looking at so far? Completely scratched 1) flight deck (all those padeyes [cringe]), 2) guns, 3) island, 4) air group (that Ace Resin kit is starting to sound pretty good), and a largely scratched hull (the stern of which also has to be fixed to remove the two twin 3/50 tubs). Gadmungus....if I do this and live to tell about (without loosing my sanity), I oughta write a how-to book. ) ...and how much did JSP want for those Oriskany molds again? Dasvidanya! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar2@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "J. London" Subject: BOOKS FOR SALE Bowen, SCALE MODEL WARSHIPS, Conway 1978. $20.00 Reilly/Scheina, AMERICAN BATTLESHIPS 1886-1923, NIP 1980. $30.00 Chesnau, AIRCRAFT CARRIERS OF THE WORLD 1914 to Present, Arms & Amour Press 1984. $30.00 Brennecke/Hader, PANZERSCHIFFE und LINIENSCHIFFE 1860-1910, Koehler 1976 (German text). $18.00 Terzibaschitsch, AIRCRAFT CARRIERS OF THE US NAVY, Conway 1980. $30.00 McNarry, SHIP MODELS IN MINIATURE, Praeger 1975 (Sail and steam ship models). $12.00 Terzibaschitsch, KREUZER der U.S. NAVY, (Omaha to Long Beach), Koehler 1984 (German text). $25.00 Scheina. U.S. COAST GUARD CUTTERS & CRAFT OF WORLD WAR II, NIP 1982. $25.00 Coker, BUILDING WARSHIP MODELS, CokerCraft 1974, $50.00 All hardback with dust jackets and in excellent condition. Postage and insurance extra. E-mail off list for details and shipping costs. Michael London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Detailing super carriers Flagship Models produce a Nimitz class PE set for the Nimitz class super carriers. The set includes details to completely detail all the aircraft that come with the kit, including landing gear and doors, refueling probes, drop tanks, missiles and crewmen among lots of other things. Check out my web site to SEE it. Also, 98% of the parts you pay for go on the model, not in the spares box. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: CA139JOHNF@aol.com Subject: Y2K SMML Convention SMML Convention When - May 5,6,7, 2000 Where- US Naval Shipbuilding Museum Aboard USS Salem (CA139) 739 Washington St. Quincy, Massachusetts 02169 Schedule- Friday, 5 May 2000 0900-1130 Welcome and registration, sign up for afternoon tours. Set up of models for public display. Probably on after mess deck. 1200-1800 Tours to: Boston-USS Constitution, USS Cassin Young (DD 793), USS Constitution Museum. Via water shuttle direct from USS Salem. OR Fall River Massachusetts: Battleship USS Massachusetts (BB59), USS Joseph P.Kennedy (DD850), USS Lionfish (SS298), PT617 and 796, Missle Corvette Hiddensee, Fall River Maritime Museum. Via ground transportation. Saturday, 6 May 2000 1000-1200 Semminars on various shipmodeling and related subjects. 1200-1330 Buffet lunch on fantail (weather permiting) 1330-1600 Semminars 1630-1800 Social hour (+1/2) 1800-2030 Buffet Banquet, guest speakers. Sunday, 7 May 2000 1000-1600 Meeting in wardroom to announce voting by public of favorite model. Brief discussion on success or flop of the meeting, (Should we do it again elswhere? The UK or Australia might be a nice excuse to travel) Tours of the Salem and goodbyes. Registration The planning group for this event is asking for a preregistration deadline of April 1, 2000. The reason being the time involved to make final plans, keep costs down and most important, get a head count. In order to be able to use the Salem for an entire weekend we need fifty people to preregister. We are being charged $1500 to use the ship. We realize that some will only wish to come for the Saturday seminars so we propose two levels of registration and costs. For those just comming for Saturday, a cost of $30.00 which includes the lunch. For those comming for the weekend, a cost of $50.00 will include the Friday tour of your choice with transportation and admission, the Saturday seminars and evening banquet, Sunday meeting and Salem tours. Those comming only for Saturday and wishing to attend the Banquet may do so with a nominal extra charge. Full information on how to preregister will be posted soon on the SMML Web Site, (Thanks to our Webmaster, Mike). If any listmembers do not want to preregister but still want to come, of course you are welcome, Just identify yourself at the quarterdeck when you come aboard, we will take of you (gently, I promise). Since we are not a formal organization and have no treasury we are going to establish a bank account to hold all payments in escrow until the event. If the event fails to draw enough attendees and we must cancel, all money will be refunded. If there is any money left over, we will discuss on Sunday what should be done with it. We are all gentlemen and ladies and I feel that is right way to do it. If we fall short I may have to become "Captain of the Head" for a few years. The planning group is looking for people to run a seminar on whatever subject they may be familier with so, if you would like to share your knowledge please let me know. We, the planning group, are open to suggestions and comments about any aspect of the proposed meeting. We have tried to be fair and open in our discussions. This could the beginniing of a wonderful fraternity. When there is more news, one of us will annouce it here and send the info to the webmaster for the web site. If there are any errors or ommissions in this message to the list, its my fault and not the entire planning group. Same applies if the e-mail system mangles this beyond comprehension. (it did, but I fixed it ;-)) Shane) John Frohock instigator, Y2k SMMLcon. Fellows in the deep end with me are: John Sheridan Harold Lincoln Mark McKeller Larry Ouelette Fritz Koopman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume