Subject: SMML VOL 788 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:48:05 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Regia Marina Paint (was Paint Queries) 2: Czarist armored ships underwater 3: Battle Honours again..... 4: Info request 5: Re: More on Richelieu 6: Potemkin Colour Scheme 7: WW II USCG WPC 154 USS Vigilant- Active class 8: Most Action 9: References for US carrier Air Groups? 10: HMS Burdock 11: Re: USS Indianapolis 12: Re: Greatest ship 13: MAS Boat Material 14: Midway flight deck 15: Model Kits for Sale 16: Re: Rodney & Nelson 17: Quotations 18: Thank You 19: Re: Canberras (OT) 20: Re: Richlieu and Battleship design -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Photoetched Details for CV's, CVL's and CVE's 2: Items for sale 3: US DOCKYARD MATEYS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Regia Marina Paint (was Paint Queries) Well, I'm on the road in Washington, D.C. at the moment and so out of contact with my partner. But, with Royal Navy Set 2 just about complete, RN3 partly mixed and some matching/mixing remaining, my best guess at the moment for the Regia Marina set is sometime around mid-year. If, after I have a chance to consult with Randy, I can refine that estimate, I will do so here. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys (From inside the Beltway in the Seat of All Wisdom and Knowledge.....yeah, right!!) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: GrafSpee34@aol.com Subject: Czarist armored ships underwater >> I am just beginning to make the ex-Heller Russian battle cruiser Potemkin. I am wondering about the colour scheme, especially of the underwater parts. Can anyone of you help? << This is an interesting question. The default color would be a dark red or brown red.... but.... The antique model of the Potemkin at the Central Naval Museum in Leningrad (it was called Leningrad when I was there) has a copper painted underwater hull. I also noted that the under water hull of their 1:50 Aurora model is covered in metal plates, like on wooden ships of the Napoleonic era. And I have a reference that states some Russian ships were coated with zinc plates under the waterline. It does not say why, but I presume it was a pseudo scientific anti fouling measure. So.....based on this information, it is possible that the Potemkin had a copper sheathed hull beneath the water line at some point. But hell, just paint it red!!!! Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Chris Drage" Subject: Battle Honours again..... Hi Lads and Ladesses, Just to confirm Warspite's Battle Honours Jutland 1916 Atlantic 1939 Narvik 1940 Norway 1940 Calabria 1940 Mediterranean 1940-43 Malta Convoys 1941 Matapan 1941 Crete 1941 Sicily 1943 Salerno 1943 English Channel 1944 Normandy 1944 Walcheren 1944 Biscay 1944 Did HMS Jervis really eclipse that lot? The one ship that Britain should have preserved as a monument to its naval history sadly was not. Regards, Chris He tao rakau e taea te karo, tena he tao kupa kaore e taea te karo......(Te Reo Maori) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Bonini Srl" Subject: Info request Hello from Italy, guys ! Within the new Fujimi 1/700 modern waterline range, I saw new kits of the O.H. Perry and A. Burke classes: can anybody tell me whether they come from new moulds, or from the usual Skywave moulds, already used by DML/Dragon and Revell ? Thanks and greetings from the sunny, but very cold mountains of Northern Italy! Giusto Gallas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Jeffrey Roberts" Subject: Re: More on Richelieu >> However, the third ship of the class (Clemenceau) would have had her turrets fore and aft. << Actually, Clemenceau was designed to have both main battery turrets forward. The secondary turrets were redistributed in Clemenceau. The projected fourth ship of the class, the Gascogne, would have had one turret forward, and one aft, but she was never laid down. Best wishes, Jeffrey Roberts North Hollywood, California -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Leslie Brown" Subject: Potemkin Colour Scheme There have been a number of similar questions to this recently. In a reply given before (I'm not sure who by) it was said: The following came from an article that appeared in Military Modelling many years ago, written by one Harry Woodman. I quote: >> When first commissioned and up to some time in 1908/9, Potemkin was painted in a scheme which was common for most navies of the period. The boot topping was red with a fine white dividing line between it and the hull colour proper. From the boot topping up to and including the main turrets and boat deck the colour was black. The super-structure up to the fighting tops on the masts, cranes, boats and gear was white. The funnels including the bases, the ventilators, and the masts were painted an amber yellow or something very close to this. The mouths of the ventilators were painted red and the funnel tops were black. Shortly after commissioning, the upper parts of the masts (from searchlight platform to top and including the gaff on the main mast) were painted black. << Hope this is helpful. I do have an article from Military Modelling which describes the building of the Heller kit. If you want a copy, please contact me off line. Regards Les Brown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Mike Taylor" Subject: WW II USCG WPC 154 USS Vigilant- Active class Need info on paint schemes for this corvette. grey, black and light blue perhaps?..... MG/Mike Taylor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Phil Gollin" Subject: Most Action I agree that decorations don't necessarily tie in with actions - I would love to hear more about HMS Jervis's Year of Action. I also have a soft spot for "those who only stand and wait", especially those ships which served on the Western Approaches ALL the time from the beginning of the War through to the end ('39-'45), according to the Western Approaches museum in Liverpool (I hope everyone has visited), these are; Royal Navy ; Aberdeen, Bideford, Enchantress, Fowey, Londonderry, Northern Wave, Vanquisher, Vimy, Volunteer, Wellington Royal Canadian Navy; Assinboine, St. Laurent, Restigouche There are some ships which worked hard for their countries. Enchantress may still be seen on the London embankment in her depot ship, de-militarised state Phil -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Joseph Poutre Subject: References for US carrier Air Groups? In equipping aircraft carriers, I'll need to know aircraft, colors, and markings for their air groups. Old blurry black and white photos don't help much. Is there a reference, either hardcopy or online, that lists this information? The models will be in 1/700 scale, so I only need general marking and color info. Thanks! BTW: I finished a model! Wow! Well, I really want to add PE radars, ladders and stairs eventually, but it's finished enough for now. On the the Big Project (which just got 3 ships smaller for practical reasons. I can always add more later.) Joseph Poutre jpoutre@lehman.com Co-webmaster, Battleship New Jersey Historical Museum Society http://www.bb62museum.org/ Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Clifford Franklin Subject: HMS Burdock The only photo I have seen of HMS Burdock was printed in the book "The Battle of the Atlantic; the Corvettes and their crews: an Oral History," written by Chris Bailey and published by USN Institute Press in 1994. The photo shows her with a two colour camouflage scheme on the port side, and is captioned as being from late 1941, early 1942, "after modification." The pattern looks similar to that worn by a number of other Flower class corvettes. If you want a copy of the photo, contact me off-list. cheers Cliff Franklin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: James Corley Subject: Re: USS Indianapolis >> For the best reference on that ship, call Pacific Front Hobbies and ask for the Classic Warships Publication, Warship Pictorial #1 USS Indianapolis CA-35. Its only $9.95, and loaded with great drawings and the best photo reproduction around. Of course, I am the publisher, and not biased, HONESTLY! << Steve, of course you are biased in favor of your own product (on natural), but it is honestly the best source for the Indianapolis I have seen yet! Good Job. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Mike_C Subject: Re: Greatest ship In my opinion, the USS Enterprise (CV-6) is, and will always be, the greatest ship because she played a major role in more pivotal battles - and had a greater impact on the outcome of the war- than any other ship. I never even heard of the Jervis until she was mentioned on this list. All of this discussion about greatest ship seems purely subjective and akin to some people's opinion that the RN is the greatest navy in the world. I'll try to stay out of that one except to say that, from my understanding, vitriolic comments by some have soured the originator of that thread and driven him from this list. I think apologies are in order, but that's another opinion. Many people's perceptions are based on their area of interest and "favorites" aren't always chosen on historical importance. I'll never belittle someone for their opinion. After all, it IS only their opinion. I'll still know I'M right. ;-D Mike Czibovic (In the bunker with full flak gear. Have at it.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "John Rule" Subject: MAS Boat Material >> I am trying to locate on an urgent basis, material for the Italian MAS boats of WW Two, plans, photos,color details etc. I believe that they may have been at least one title on the subject published in the Orizzonte Mare series. If so, I would very much like to obtain a copy. << Unfortunately the Orizzonte Mare series of books didn't get to coverage of the MAS boats. I have a book titled NAVI E MARINAI by Elio Ando and Erminio Bagnasco which has several photos and detailed captions relating to MAS boats. There are also three colour profiles of MS 16, Mas 572 and and a boat of the VAS 3rd Series. All of the profiles are in overall light grey (consult S&S) with a representation of green decks and the characteristic red and white diagonal stripes at the bow. The torpedoes are shown as light grey with red warheads. I hope this helps in some way. Unfortunately I can't scan anything to send as I have to go to the UK for a couple of weeks. John Rule Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: Midway flight deck The Midway had an armored flight deck due to the British experience, but was the armored deck covered with wood planking originally? That's what I don't know. Michael Smith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: GrafSpee34@aol.com Subject: Model Kits for Sale Found this guy's list on the web. I never did business with him, dont know anything about him, but theres a few interesting maybe rare model ship kits on his list. Have a look http://homepage.av.com/gk_scale_models/files/GKkitlist122599HTML.htm Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Ronald Wild" Subject: Re: Rodney & Nelson If my memory is correct, the Rodney and Nelson were designed with after turrets but (and correct me here) due to the Washington Treaty, had to be altered to conform to the maximum tonnage allowed. The easiest way for the designers to do this was to simply redesign the stern by removing the aft turrets -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Keith Butterley Subject: Quotations Hi group, Slightly off topic here, but related. Does anybody know of a website that has famous naval quotations? I am referring to the likes of David R.Wells signature "There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today" or "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" etc. Thanks in advance. Keith Butterley -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Lawrence Tam Subject: Thank You Hi everyone, Thank You very much for all your input on the Indy. It's been a great help. Lawrence -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Re: Canberras (OT) JFYI, the US derivative of the Canberra was the Martin B-57. It differed quite a bit from the British made craft in having a two-seat tandem cockpit with a fighter style canopy. I always preferred the looks of the B-57 to the British Canberras for this reason. Martin also created another uniquely American derivative, the RB-57, with extremely large wings (that suffered from metal fatique quite badly I hear) and tail surfaces and a different shaped nose. IMO these always struck me as a cross between a B-57 and a U-2 (which more than likely is where the idea came from). Dasvidanya! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar2@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Re: Richlieu and Battleship design One slight correction, Richelieu cl ships had 15-in guns, while the Dunkerque cl ships had 13.5-in guns. Although England and France were the only two nations to build battleships with the main batteries concentrated forward, the USN also worked up a number of similar design studies based on the Nelson cl ships during the 20's and 30s. Drawings and descriptions of a good number of these studies can be found in Friedman's US BATTLESHIPS (Ch-11, Design Studies, 1928-34). Included in there are two proposed designs for a "Flight Deck Battleship" (re: Battlecarrier) - with a Nelson influenced main gun arrangment and a flight deck aft. Also included among these are a 32,000 ton slow battleship design (9/34) that was effectively a upgraded Tennessee cl ship, a 31,000 ton fast battleship design of 7/34 (that bears a strong resembalence to a Wichita cl CA), and my favorite, the 11/34 66,000 ton "maximum battleship" with 8 20-in guns. There's something about the latter that just screams "scratchbuild" to me. For those who like to venture into "might've beens", this book (and I suspect the other Friedman books as well) should be considered a definate "check it out". Fly Navy! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar@thenavy.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Loren Perry Subject: Photoetched Details for CV's, CVL's and CVE's For those building the 1/700 WW2 Bogue CVE and Independence CVL class carriers from Skywave, Revell, etc., Gold Medal Models has a highly detailed photoetched stainless steel detail set that contains enough parts to fully equip two models - one CVE and one CVL. Complete and accurate replacement masts are provided, including both early and late versions for the CVL. Also furnished are all the radars carried by these classes during WW2, aircraft propellers, ladders, funnel supports, crane boom, and numerous other parts. Fully illustrated instructions are included. Order GMM Set No. 700-24 @ $12 plus $1 postage. For the 1/720 Modern Supercarriers by Italeri and Testors, GMM has a state-of-the-art PE set 3-D relief-etched in stainless steel. Furnished are complete replacement masts for every ship in the series (early and late versions of many details are supplied) including the Forrestal-class, Kitty Hawk-class, America, and all of the Nimitz-class ships. The set will build one model with plenty of spare parts left over for practice or future projects. Also supplied are early and late radars carried by all these ships throughout their careers, ECM antennas, boat fenders, aircraft and helicopter details, aircraft towbars, a crane boom for Tilly, illuminator antenna tubs, flight deck netting for all classes (including early and late versions), LSO platform nets and windscreen, various platforms, flight deck edge ladders, additional types of vertical and inclined ladders, boat rudders, anchors, island flood-lights, and plenty of railing and other details. Fully illustrated instructions cover all clsses and installation of all parts. Order GMM Set No. 720-11 @ $18 plus $1 postage. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: CokerRE@aol.com Subject: Items for sale I have the following items for sale. Please reply by e-mail off list SHIP PLANS SMS Blucher 1914 1/100 scale $50.00 SMS Karlsruhe 1917 1/100 scale $40.00 KM Koln 1935/36 1/100 sclae $50.00 BOOKS Breyer, Koop, Von Der Emden zur Tirpitz, vol. I battleships $30.00 vol. II, cruisers $30.00 Breyer, Schulkreuzer Emden, Marine Arsenal #31 $25.00 Flugzeugtrager Graf Zeppelin $25.00 Buchheim, U-Boat War, large illustrated about life on a u-boat $50.00 Schmallenbach, Kreuzer Prinz Eugen unter 3 Flaggen 1985 $20.00 Whitby, German Cruisers of World War II $20.00 Whitley, German Cruisers of World War II $30.00 also large collection of issues of German ship history magazine das Logbuch and ship model magazines Modell-Werft. The latter is probably the best ship model magazine anywhere with well printed plans and details, photos, many in color. P.C. Coker, Charleston by e-mail at cokerre@aol.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: US DOCKYARD MATEYS Hi Guys, Well... finally, after a very long time, we received the first batch of these yesterday, and they look absolutely superb! For 1/700 scale diorama builders, we now have just about every element of a dockyard/railway scene for you to use. Vehicles and some other items are expected in the next couple of days but this is what has arrived already. (Of course, as you know, we've been doing the British stuff for a while already...) WW2 US DM 7030 Large diesel switcher Class 500 (x2) £2.95 DM 7031 Small diesel switcher Class 460 (x2) £2.95 DM 7033 50ft flat car (x3) £2.95 DM 7034 36ft Single dome tank car (x3) £2.95 DM 7035 40ft wooden box car (x3) £2.95 DM 7036 40ft steel box car (x3) £2.95 DM 7042 40ft tank car (square) (x3) £2.95 ($4.66) DM 7045 Caboose (x3) £2.95 ($4.66) WW2 US Built British/European DM 7039 Diesel loco (x2) £2.95 ($4.66) DM 7040 40ft twin dome tanker (x3) £2.95 ($4.66) Will be updating the page with a couple of new photographs later today. http://whiteensignmodels.simplenet.com/dock/dock.htm Thanks! Caroline http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models White Ensign Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume