Subject: SMML VOL 794 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:12:32 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Seperate bollards and barbettes (metal please) 2: 1939 Best ship...... 3: CGN Virginia - BaD 4: Re: Glenco Oregon 5: FD Alfred Wolf 6: More about Essex's 7: V & W class destroyers 8: Re: PT-109 9: Best BB/Fuel for the fire 10: Best Battleship of 1939 11: Re: Advice solicited! 12: Deck Painting Techniques on Ship Models 13: Re: Essex versus Illustrious 14: What you see, what you don't 15: Olympia as source of parts (was USS West Virginia (ACR) 16: USS Springfield 1944 17: Day of Deceit 18: SS FRANCE and SS ILE DE FRANCE 19: ISBN for U.S. ARMORED CRUISERS 20: Re: Alfred Wolf 21: Re: USS Franklin 22: HMS Hewcastle Circa 1952 Upper Bridge -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: CONWAY'S WARSHIP 1999-2000 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Seperate bollards and barbettes (metal please) >> Upon cracking open the parts box to my ISW California the first thing that came out of my mouth was "OH MAH GAWDS!" (at which point I forced myself to start breathing again). << Man, I know what you mean! When I opened my ISW 1/350 Hood kit I had to make a stop by the liquor store for a pint of encouragement. ISW has done just what's been suggested here. They have made separate castings of all the small deck fittings. While it makes for a cleaner cast hull and superstructure, the basic problems with casting small parts is still there. My kit includes lots and lots of tiny vents, wenches, open chocks and other do-dads that attach to the deck. As it turned out, about half of the parts suffered from air bubbles and other casting problems common when casting small parts from resin. This resulted in a lot of time repairing these problems. Also, (in my opinion) once parts get to a certain small size, resin just doesn't work well. Trimming very small, delicate resin parts invites damage. This is where cast metal parts would be far better. The casting quality is excellent and you would have to worry about damage to the tiny parts. In short, I would support casting deck fittings separate from the model, but I would prefer they be cast in metal. I'm not trashing ISW (the Hood's a pretty good kit) or anyone else. This is just my opinion after building these kits. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Morley, James (London)" Subject: 1939 Best ship...... Just a quick note about Scharnhorst. Although nice looking, fast, and lucky ships (when together), Scharnhorst and Gniesenau were in no way sufficiently armed to deal with battleships, and were under very specific orders to avoid them. The intention had been to replace their 11" guns with a larger calibre, but this was never done. To rate Scharnhorst so high in the overall score is madness. I suspect that it scores far higher than the King George V class one of whom, HMS Duke of York, blew KM Scharnhorst out of the water in December 1943 in a remarkably one-sided duel. I would expect the other ships mentioned (Tennessee, Hood, Fuso, Nagato, QE) to do the same assuming they could catch her, and additionally Hoods similar top speed would ensure no escape. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Morley, James (London)" Subject: CGN Virginia - BaD I'm sure the link to the BaD models site got a few people salivating. Does anyone know of a maker of 1/96 fibreglass hulls for USS Virginia (CGN)? - I'm not sure I can face plank-on-frame!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Glenco Oregon >> Have you considered a Glencoe USS Oregon? I think it's larger than 1/350, maybe 1/225, but that could work. << Get the Kalambach publication "Building & Detailing Scale Model Ships" by Mike Ashey. There is a photo of the Glencoe Oregon model right on the cover. There is also a ton of hints and tips in the book concerning that very model. It turned out super nice looking. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: FD Alfred Wolf Hi all My references indicate that Alfred Wolf was a destroyer escort of the John C Butler class (DE544) and was cancelled in September '44. DD 559 was Longshaw Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: More about Essex's Hi all I think most of you are missing the point. In warship design it is neither wholly defensive or offensive characteristics that decide how effective a ship is but the combination of the two. The evidence indicates that the Essex class was deficient in defensive characteristics and despite claims to the contrary the size of the airgroup was not an adequate compensation. Even when the Essex's were carrying as many fighters as the Illustrious class they still couldn't keep the Japanese out. This is a fairly reliable indicator that the size of the airgroup is actually not as vital as is usually supposed. Like building the unsinkable battleship (could be done but the beast wouldn't float) increasing the size of the airgroup will have to reach a limit and as a result other factors need to come into play. This is where the Illustrious class had the advantage - their designers had thought about survivability much more than those of the Essex class. Furthermore the Illustrious class not only proved the correctness of their design philosophy in the North Atlantic/Mediterranean theatre but in the Pacifc theatre as well. They were better able to survive the attacks launched on them. Greg's point about tiredness is interesting but in the context of the Pacific war does not hold. I've seen too many accounts of the fatigue experienced by pilots serving on the Essex class to accept the argument that airgroup size has a major effect on tiredness. It also did not seem to have much effect on the ability to perform missions, the Fleet Air Arm was better at CAP than the USN and the scouting record of the US Carrier fleet was quite frankly abysmal. We're moving into the field of design philososphy here and whilst I am very interested in this as well I'm sure that this subject is begining to bore a lot of other list members and to try Shane's patience. I for one would like to continue and so I would ask everyone who wants to carry on the debate to contact me off list. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Robert OConnor Subject: V & W class destroyers Re the V & W class destroyers being more successful, etc. than the Essex class ships, my only response is that I mentioned the CV as a major combatant ship,and it is arguable that destroyers are not major combatants. Now comes the rub... what's a major combatant??? Any takers on that thread?? And as they say here in Florida, I-95 runs northbound, too, tourist!!!! And they also say, Go Seminoles, National Champions!!!! Bob O'Connor, in toasty Central Florida, now filling with northern snowbirds, and where shorts are for wearing in winter. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: PT-109 >> PT-109 at the time of her sinking would have been an overall forest green. A definition of this color can be found in the Lambert & Ross book, Coastal Forces of WWII volume 2. << I just skimmed the chapter on camouflage in my copy of the book and saw no reference to "Forest Green." Lambert and Ross list the 109 boat as having left the factory with the hull in Standard Navy Gray No. 5 and the superstructure in Dark Gray 5-D, and repainted in the field into Measure 13, overall green, possibly a variant of Tropical. Looking at our paint chips, I'd guess that Green 4A of the 1942 greens, or 5-NG Navy Green of the early 1942 greens would be a good bet. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Robert Healy" Subject: Best BB/Fuel for the fire If you want to see a very interesting comparison of the worlds BB's including French and Italian units (plus some good stuff on Japanese ships of all types from WWll) check out this page: http://www.skypoint.com/~jbp/kaigun.htm Regards to all, Bob Healy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Phil Gollin" Subject: Best Battleship of 1939 Just a warning about the various boards mentioned by Derek Wakefield in his response. These boards are, IN GENERAL, a fascinating mixture of incredible detail and biased bigots (the worse being the Iowa's versus Yamato's groups). There is much to be learnt by "listening in", but also a lot of misinformation. I would rather draw people's attention to a couple of books; Battleship Design and Development, 1905 - 1945, by Norman Friedman, and The Big Gun, by Peter Hodges. (Both excellent authors and excellent books). Also, of course the Various design histories of British Battleships (Raven & Roberts, and Burt), American Battleships (Friedman and Garzke & Dulin) and General (Garzke & Dulin). Also, D K Brown's "The Grand Fleet" - the next volume covering World War Two should be the best book of the decade) AND MOST IMPORTANTLY THE OPERATIONAL HISTORIES OF THE VARIOUS SHIPS. At the end of the Day, it is the way the ships were designed, constructed, manned AND operated that matters, otherwise actions like Renown's versus Scharnhorst AND Gneisenau, and Warspite's various forays against the Italians don't make any sense in the purely theoretical sense. Basically any of the WW2 "new" battleships (and some of the modernised ones) were dangerous to the others, depending on the specific circumstances. If you do enter into the Battleship Boards, some true (if "naughty") facts to throw in; 1: American thick (over 6-8") armour was up to 25% less effective than German and British Armour 2: The Yamato's never reliably steamed at their rated maximum speed 3: The Iowa's were if anything less well armoured than the South Dakota's. The North Carolina's were probably more useful Battleships (better ?) than the South Dakota's because of the restricted space (above and below decks). 4: The Bismark's legendary unsinkablity was actually due to the great sub-division of the hull, rather than the armour, which was repeatedly holed by the 14" and 16" guns. 5: As the greatest range any capital ship was hit was about 26,500 yards, and most its were at much lesser ranges, the idea of a few really big guns versus more, smaller and quicker firing guns was as false as it was for 8" versus 6" cruisers. The idea of a "soft kill" versus a "hard-kill" surfaces when looking at the death of the Bismark, the Scharnhorst and the failure of the electrics/radars of the Washington. You can continue for ages - it makes our board look peaceful by comparison. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: tom Subject: Re: Advice solicited! Mike Connelley writes: >> Wow, that's a fairly impressive collapse of self denial! I wish I could do that some day. So did you buy the Mo' while you were there or did you have that already...I'm not quite clear on that point. << Aww, I've already admitted a lot, do you really need to hear it all? Yes, I got both DD'S and the MO. I DID manage to not buy well over 99.9% of the items in the shop. I never even went over to the book section. >> Anyway, about the solicited advice. If you want a nice 1920's battleship then I'd recommend the Tom's Modelworks 1920 USS Arizona. It's the only 1920's era BB kit that I can think of off the top of my head, is quite reasonably priced especially for a 1/350 resin battleship, and having seen one built up I can say it builds into a very nice model. So there's my advice. Anyway, good luck on the Mo', especially if you're going to do her in Ms 32/22d...I'm still trying to figure out how I'm going to paint mine!!! << Thanks to everyone who mentioned the Toms Modelworks Arizona. The models will make a nice study of design progress... basically marking the beginning of a transition from a world of purely mechanical devices to a world of electronic equipment. Tom -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: John_Impenna@hyperion.com Subject: Deck Painting Techniques on Ship Models Hi All, I am trying to get a few new ideas on how differently we all do things, so I would like to ask a basic question; How do most folks paint their 1/700-1/500 ship kits and in what order? Do you spray the basic superstructure color and then brush paint the wooden decks??? Hopefully we can all share some interesting ideas and techniques. I have tried many methods, especially on the smaller scales, but seem to have the best luck with the above. I'm curious, and would love the chance to learn some better, different, creative ways to accomplish this. This thread may be a little more fun than discussing whose is bigger, better faster,etc........... Also, perhaps some sharing of the photoetch shortcuts or secrets??? Let's have at it!!!!!!!!! John Hi John, Well I'll start the ball rolling by saying that I hand paint all my ships at the moment. I try to paint as much on the sprue as possible, so that when it comes to attaching the superstructure etc on the kit, I don't hopefully have to worry too much about straight lines ;-). I use a fine brush to paint the bollards, chains etc on the deck, but since I used to paint 1/285 WW2 armour (fun painting 05-1mm wide tracks) for wargaming a few years ago, it's not much hassle for me - just time consuming. I don't bother with masking at this stage, but when I go to the airbrush, I will. As for PE secrets - well the best tip I can (being a novice myself) is take your time & that practise makes perfect ;-). Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Allan and Crystal Plumb Subject: Re: Essex versus Illustrious From: "chenyangzhang" >> No Illustrious class was sidelined because of battle damage (though this may be because of the lack of carriers in the RN) but the Enterprise, Sarratoga and Franklin were basically bombed out of the war. << Oh? -- Illustrious out from 6/41 to 5/42 after taking 8 500 and 100kg bombs in the Med. -- Victorious hit by kamikazes in 5/45, necessitating repairs in Australia (Hi, Shane). -- Formidable hit by 2 1000 kg bombs in 5/41, out of action for 6 months. -- Indomitable hit by 2 500 kg bombs during Operation Pedestal, had to return to Britain for repairs. (All from Chesneau's "Aircraft Carriers".) Maybe you meant to say "sidelined permanently", but I suggest that if say Illustrious had taken 11 months of damage during 1945, she also might not have been seen again. I find the overall discussion fascinating, especially since designs to different requirements and doctrines are of great interest to me, but I had to chip in on that one. Now, what if Ark Royal had survived to late war? With two full hangar decks, she was a lot closer to an Essex in capacity and intent. Allan Plumb -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Jens H. Brandal" Subject: What you see, what you don't >> From: Ed Grune Subject: Camoflaged Nukes snip I'm not sure what I see in the starboard side. Any other opinions? << A nice subject for a model, perhaps? :-) Jens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Ed Grune Subject: Olympia as source of parts (was USS West Virginia (ACR) Derek - If you had read the original post - the question was (paraphrased) ... would the Olympia be a source for spare parts and deck fittings. The question was not rebuilding the Olympia as the West Virginia. The question has not been answered, so it remains on the floor -- any takers. Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "tking12" Subject: USS Springfield 1944 Does anyone have information, pictures, or models on the USS Springfield, 1944. I know Revell used to make one back in the 60's, it was a plastic model kit. I am looking for this kit and any other general information about the USS Springfield during World War 2. Thank you Tim King -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Day of Deceit Hi Guys I have recently come across a book from Barnes and Noble called Day of Deceit by Robert Stinnett, Simon&Schuster Inc. copyright 2000. It is about President Roosevelt knowledge about the Pearl Harbor attack before it happened. This is written by veteran of the pacific war not some college guy hoping to cash in on conspiracy theories. He uses US gov's records and documents classified for decades made available because of the freedom of information act. He doesn't attack Roosevelt outright but approaches as to why and what was happening at that moment in history. It details discussions between him and top commanders. Basically the USA was very pro isolationist at the time of the WW2 and didn't want to get involved but Roosevelt feared the defeat of England to Germany and Italy and Japan's very oblivious expanding militaristic behavior. He needed Pearl Harbor to unite this country. Which Pearl Harbor did. Now I am a post war baby boomer and I know that if WW2 had continued past 1945 I might not have been born due to the ages of my parents. I guesses if history didn't go the way it did we would be speaking German or Japanese today Craig Bennett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Darren Scannell Subject: SS FRANCE and SS ILE DE FRANCE Hello, I need some help locating plans. Does anybody know if builder style plans are available for the liners FRANCE, as built in 1961, and ILE DE FRANCE, as built in 1926. Any leads in any scale would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Darren Scannell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "lcp9" Subject: ISBN for U.S. ARMORED CRUISERS The ISBN is 0-87021-714-3. I hope this helps. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: Alfred Wolf Rusty: You can verify the correct name of DD-540. Try DANFS, any 1965 or earlier edition of 'Ships & Aircraft of the US Fleet', Jane's, Friedman's 'US Destroyers - A Design History', etc. Even Morison's History Series - see if you find an Alfred Wolf listed in any index - you will find TWINING listed starting with 'New Guinea and the Marianas'. Eugene -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: USS Franklin If you check her log, you find that BUNKER HILL (CV-17) made a brief cruise to Pearl Harbor in October 1945 with an embarked Air Group and conducted flight operations. Upon return to the states, the Air Group flew ashore and was disestablished. The Air Group was CVG-95. Eugene -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Jim Fearn Subject: HMS Hewcastle Circa 1952 Upper Bridge I'm presently scratch building a 1/96 model of the HMS Newcastle circa 1952 with the new rounded bridge. I have the blueprints from the National Maritime Meseum in Greenwich... but details are lacking. Does anyone know where I can get a good picture of the Upper Bridge to pick up some good detail? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: CONWAY'S WARSHIP 1999-2000 Hi there Good news... at last!! The above volume is here... price 30.00 pounds (around $48.00) Edited by Anthony Preston, 208pp, h/b, featuring: The Laid Rams, The Sea of Azov Expedition, Creating an Inshore Navy: Royal Navy Littoral Warfare Forces in the Russian War 1854-56, Preston, The Battle of the Yalu, 17/09/1894, Peter Brook, From Riurik to Riurik: Russia's Armoured Cruisers (with photographs to die for!!), The Japanese Experimental Light Cruiser Yubari, The origins of Dunkerque and Strasbourg, by John Jordan, Dire Straits: The Transit of the Lombok Strait, Sept 1964, by P. French, The Steam gunboats by George Moore, The Brazilian Imperial Navy Ironclads 1865-1874 by George A. Gratz.. stuffed with drawings, plans, photographs... and the review section.... Also, the Warship Gallery with 11 superb photographs.. Type 23, Kuwaiti Missile Craft, U-858, Prinz Eugen after the surrender in Copenhagen, U-996, Light Cruiser Koln, Type XXI under construction.... Cool, hey! Get your orders in a.s.a.p.! All The Best, Caroline (Hoping for a new photograph of herself on the SMMLlie pages...) http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models White Ensign Models, for a fine range of photoetched brass for 1/600, 1/700 and 1/350 scale kits, and THE finest warship kits and upgrades in the world! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume