Subject: SMML VOL 798 Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 05:21:00 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Enterprise in '42 2: French carriers off Indochine, Lynn's carrier and JAG subs 3: Reviews and opinions 4: Re: 40 mm Bofors shields 5: Day of Deceit 6: Re: Dazzel scheme photo etch (painting) 7: Re: Illustrious v. Essex 8: Re: Illustrious the best? certainly not 9: HMS Hermes 10: Re: Enterprise CV-6 11: USS Washington 12: In Harms Way 13: Re: Best BB in '39? 14: Congratulations to Mike Ashey 15: Admiral King 16: BB-62 antifouling color 17: colors for Kitty Hawk 18: HELP LOL 19: What are "A arcs"? 20: Re: Best Carrier 21: Re: Illustrious V Essex Debate--USS Franklin 22: Knox Class FFG 23: Re: Forest Sherman 24: My final(?) word on Essex v Illustious Class 25: Re: USS Oregon kit 26: Re: CVLs in Indo-China 27: Re: PacFront New Releases 28: Viking Models 29: Re: Illustrious the best? certainly not 30: Re: Iron Shipwright Wickes/Clemson Destroyer in 1/350 scale 31: Re: "Zhong Shan" Chinese warship 32: For sale :-) 33: Re: 1:350 scale 4 piper 34: Re: Various 35: Re: Oriskany (& Forrest Shermans) on ebay 36: USS John McCain -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: SMML Convention 2: Re: USS Virginia 3: Iron Shipwrong? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Charlie Jarvis Subject: Enterprise in '42 Hi All: Yet another Enterprise question in her 1942 configuration. Can anyone tell me what color(s) the hanger decks were painted? Thanks: Charlie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Bergschöld Pelle Subject: French carriers off Indochine, Lynn's carrier and JAG subs Hi folks. Regarding the "Bois Belleau" and "Lafayette", my copy of the Conway's states that they carried Corsairs at the time of the Indochine deployment. It does however not say anything about any other a/c:s in her airwing. Lynn. I have built the fujimi HMS Eagle, and as far as I can recall the only troublespot was fitting the airdeck to the hull. There were some excess leftovers from production on the underside of the deck. As for accuracy, I can only state that it looks fairly OK when I compare the result with available pictures. Summarizing: It should work fine if only the First Rule of Plastic Modelling is properly followed: DRYFIT FIRST! Good luck! Tom Dougherty! Maybe a quite stupid question: These waterline JAG subs, there are really no full hull option? Best regards Pelle SWE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Joe Damato" Subject: Reviews and opinions In response to Tom Dougherty's comments about our Sub Kits, I thought they might have been a bit to harsh. When I decided to become a kit producer I realized that I would have to develop a thick skin. Having 5 kids and two of them teen-agers I knew it wouldn't be hard to get there! I've always strived to get as close as possible with my products, given limitations of time, money and information available. With regards to the subs, they were produced in response to a huge demand for the subject. Granted they may not be up to the standards of our Surface Ships, they were still pretty good and represent an incredible value. Any geek with calipers can find fault with a kit. I will go to my grave spouting the praises of Classic Warships' products, but they have their problems too. I'm sure with time and a need to "cut Steve down a notch" I could find problems with his kits, but why? When I finish his San Francisco, It'll look like a San Francisco, more so than the Salem..right? I'm less concerned if it is 9' too short or not quite tall enough (not that it is). There are limitations in the pattern, molding, casting process and with all the variables within the chemistry, it is only by blind luck your finished piece is right on. My point is that we are dealing with a scale that measures out to 1"=58.333' or .0171429=1' in scale, and unless you have little else in life to do than to mike parts, relax, enjoy the hobby...be a simpleton like me and be overjoyed that a guy like Steve made me a San Francisco!!! When my friends see it on the workbench they say "hey that's a San Francisco..are you going to finish it?" (insided joke) Not, "are you sure it's the right scale?" Sure I could-a, would-a, should-a done a better job on the subs, but they look like one, matched the drawings (and are in scale) I had out of the Friedman book and most importantly, I have a whole bunch of them on the shelf, and a lot of my friends and customers have a tons of them too. I can't remember when someone looked at my collection and said those subs suck because they are out of scale! Tom, if you are unhappy with our kits, send me your address and I will give you a refund, you can keep the kits. It is not my intention to force bad kits on people. Sorry for the rant, I respect Tom's opinon..he has a right to it, and express it. I guess I making a plea to everyone to relax and enjoy all this great stuff that's available now..When I release my Albany and a review says it looks like the Essex, then I'll get concerned. Gotta go now, got to get those dam windows painted on the SF. Joe Damato JAG Collective -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: 40 mm Bofors shields >> Does anyone who's built these know the story? Is this a silly gaffe or was there a reason for it? << I am currently working on the master patterns for a 1/35 scale Bofors quad mount so I have done extensive research on the gun. Apparently the failure to incline the forward splinter shield is a mistake. I haven't seen the MB Models quad or twin mounts. Did they remember to include vision slots on the forward splinter shield? Anyway, I can imagine an easy fix for the non slanted shields. Hold the flat part in a pair of flat nosed pliers and using a Dremel cutting wheel, cut a single slice where the incline occurs ON THE SIDE SHIELD. The cutting wheel thickness will allow sufficient depth to angle the forward shield back to meet the side shield. As small as this part would be in 1/350 scale, make sure the thickness of the cutting wheel isn't too excessive. Just a suggestion. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "sctrtrash" Subject: Day of Deceit Greetings SMMLies: I have to take issue with the chap who made a comment about American Racism and Hubris regarding the attack on Pearl Harbor. I would recommend reading "At Dawn We Slept", and then re-examine your comments. This is another "thread" that can only go nowhere as the Pear Harbor attack has been examined by the best minds to date, I doubt that we here on this list can do any better. Mark Krumrey New Richmond WI -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Dazzel scheme photo etch (painting) >> You said you paint the model in the most prominent color. So how do you handle razzle dazzle? << I ran into that very problem on the Fletcher class DD I'm working on now. I have seen many photos and talked to a number of folks about whether the rails were matched to the dazzle schemes during WW 2. (Here we go!) The results are inconclusive. Some ships had the railing the same color as the surrounding shade. While other ships (especially Fletchers for some reason) leave the railing Haze Gray. So. I guess, it's up to you. To answer your question, brush paint the sections that require a different shade. Be sure the paint is quite thin to keep from filling in delicate details. Whether you paint the dazzle before or after you apply the parts to the model is up to you. Before application would be easier and less messy. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Fernando, Yohan" Subject: Re: Illustrious v. Essex >> The value of the Illustrious's armour scheme was clearly demonstrated by the number of casualties she incurred in her bombing (killed and wounded). These were 183, I believe the figure for Franklin was 989 with just 2 hits. << The case of the Franklin was a little different than that of the Illustrious. If I remember correctly, Franklin was hit by conventional bombing at the time her planes were being readied and refueled, akin to what happpened to the Japanese at Midway. I think any carrier caught in that predicament would incur horrendous casualties as did the Franklin. The fact that she survived where the Akagi, Kaga and Soryu were lost is a testament to the advanced damage control techniques the Americans were able to develop by the end of the war. Speaking of damage to the Illustrious class, I remember reading in Friedman's US Carriers (I think), a report on how the enclosed armored hanger of the British ships actually caused greater internal damage when bombs did penetrate the deck and explode inside. Apparantly, all the thin shutters and doors on the sides of the US carrier's hangers enabled a large part of a bomb's blast to escape out through the sides of the ship, whereas the enclosed armored space of the British carriers contained the full force of the blast, causing more internal and structural damage. Like others mentioned, each design had its strengths and weaknesses, and were designed for comepletely different reasons. In the closed spaces like the Med and around the British Isles, and used as support for the battleships and cruisers, the armored deck and small airwing met the RN's need. The large airwing and endurance (fuelwise) of the Essex class was what was necessary for the Pacific War. In 1945 when the RN operated with the US in the Pacific, their ships' limited endurance did not enable them to operate for great lengths of time as the US was able to. All in all, both ships were well-designed and served admirably, but were most effective when used in the roles they were designed to. There is no such thing a 'best' ship of any class or time period. Even proving one ship was better than another is at times difficult. A well-designed ship can get into unlucky circumstances when operated in war and prove to have been of much less use then a less well-designed one that through luck, excellent leadership or other unpredictable factors comes out as a very effective unit. Yohan Fernando -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Fernando, Yohan" Subject: Re: Illustrious the best? certainly not >> The RN did not have 1st line carriers in the Indian Ocean in April 1942? When HERMES was sunk? Really? Ever hear of INDOMITABLE, FORMIDABLE? They were there with the Eastern Fleet. After the IJN got through with Ceylon and the outlying elements of the Eastern Fleet, James Somerville retired his entire fleet to East Africa. Not until 1944 could the RN raise the forces necessary to venture into the Indian Ocean again. << I can easily say that every book I have read agrees with the fact that the RN was VERY lucky their carriers did not go toe to toe with the IJN in the first half of the Pacific War (and yes- this does include books written by British authors). The vast distances involved in the Indian/Pacific Oceans, the lack of modern long ranged strike carrier aircraft and the limited capacity of their carriers would have doomed them. Read accounts of typical strikes launched from British carriers- the number of planes is somewhere around 15-20 per ship. Now look at strikes launched from their Japanese counterparts- 50-60 modern, fast and long-range planes per carrier. Not to mention the exceptional skills and elan of the elite Japanese pilots. It's not too hard to imagine the results if Indomitable and Formidable had engaged Nagumo's Kido Butai in 1942. I think Somerville was picturing the exact same thing in his mind when he wisely withdrew. Yohan Fernando -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Jeffrey Roberts" Subject: HMS Hermes The R class battleships are certainly deserving of more representation than just the old Frog kit which I built when I was in High School many moons ago... But Yohan Fernando touches on a subject near and dear to my heart: the old carrier H.M.S. Hermes. I've always been drawn to Hermes as a subject with her seemingly huge island atop the relatively small flight deck and will one day build her myself whether a kit shows up or not... She's high on my wish list (whether scratchbuilt or from a kit) along with the Dutch destroyer Isaac Sweers (which I will no doubt have to build from scratch!) and the French cruiser Algerie, and the Australian cruiser Perth. Best wishes to all, Jeffrey Roberts North Hollywood, California -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Alan Mackechnie" Subject: Re: Enterprise CV-6 John Sutherland writes: >> By the way, Enterprise didn't just miss the last campaign, she also missed Coral Sea. << Of course, she also missed Pearl Harbor! Slightly more seriously, I wonder how much an armoured film deck affects a carriers stability. A major part of a carriers effectiveness must be how well she can launch and receive aircraft in all weathers. Now, an armoured flight deck must, logically, raise the centre of gravity relative to the centre of buoyancy, and hence produce a less stable ship. Now, I know that you can design round this problem but does anyone know if the Illustrious class suffered from this problem (just curious). At this point you might want to spare a thought for the guys who flew the strike from the Ark Royal against the Bismarck. The deck rise and fall when they took off and landed was between 50 and 60 feet. The trick was to time it so that the Swordfish reached the end of the deck as the ship reached top of a wave..... Incidentally, HMS Victorious was lent to the US in 1942. She was equipped with US aircraft and she sailed for some months in the South Pacific with the Saratoga, so that the Enterprise could return home for repairs. That would be a an interesting model (or diorama). Alan Mackechnie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: USS Washington Hi all A little snippet I came accross. Washington sailed to Scapa in March 1942. On passage she lost her admiral overboard in 'mysterious circumstances'. Out of curiosity who was the unfortunate individual and what was so 'mysterious' about his loss? Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: In Harms Way Hi Eugene Spruance asked the RN to attack the most effective kamikaze airfields in Formosa because the British carriers were more likely to survive without damage. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "FCR" Subject: Re: Best BB in '39? Hello to all Mike said: >> I heard that the Japanese and Germans had among the best optical rangefinders (as the Hood and POW found out), which gives them an advantage... << I must agree that the germans have extreme excellent rangefinders. We should see the following examples: The Graf Spee's hit's the Exeter on her third salvo, Prinz Euguen hit's Hood on her fisrt salvo (I believe that it was this what happen but it wasn't this shot that have sunk the Hood), Scharhorst hit's the Glorious at first salvo too. Unless that this were lucky shots all this ship's fired at extreme ranges and hit the targets almost immediately. It must be certain that the rangefinders were quite good. On the other way I don't believe that the Japs had good rangefinder, they do had excellent nightvision detectors. Radar wasn't used for a long and when it was used it was used badly. They were of less quality then the USN and the RN for sure. Finally: best battleships in the beginning of the war (excluding battlecruisers)??? Most certainly the Queen Elizabeth's. Just my opinions Happy Modeling Filipe Ramires PORTUGAL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Loren Perry Subject: Congratulations to Mike Ashey Bravo Zulu and Well Done to Mike Ashey (author of Kalmbach's "Building and Detailing Scale Model Ships") whose Tamiya 1/350 scale USS Missouri equipped with Gold Medal Models photoetched details appears in Fine Scale Modeler's March 2000 issue. This is the first part of a major two-part article (almost unheard of for FSM) on building and superdetailing the popular Tamiya kit. For those new to using photoetched details, this will be a good reference to start with. Mike also describes various tricks he used to correct flaws in the plastic kit's moldings, how to determine painting sequences, and improving the kit's engraved detailing. Part Two will follow in the April 2000 issue, to be on newsstands on February 29th. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Summers,David" Subject: Admiral King King may have had a difficult personality, but during a war performance is most important. The primary job of a "navy minister" is logistical support of the field commanders, without operational micromanagement. King recognized Nimitz as an outstanding theater commander and supported him politically even through "dubious" campaigns, such as Midway [Washington was concerned about commiting all available US Pacific resources on a single intel assessment] and Guadalcanal. Even though King hated MacArthur, Mac had enough supplies & naval support to undertake a successful southern campaign (Mac didn't think so, however!). Most important, though, King managed the astonishing buildup of the US navy, recovering the Pearl Harbor fleet and then quickly providing large numbers of truly outstanding capital ships (the Essex's and the Iowas). In the face of demands from the army and the army air corps, and a "Germany first" policy, King funneled enough supplies to the Pacific to stop Japanese expansion within 6 months of Pearl Harbor, and to support a 2-pronged attack across the Pacific. (3, if you include the Aleutians). It was actually quite an incredible balancing act. Lots of seamen have had in inferiority complex vis-a-vis the RN; don't hold it against King! David Summers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Reynaga, Tim@EDD" Subject: BB-62 antifouling color Hi all, I'm building a modernized USS New Jersey and would like to know what color to paint the underwater hull. I know I'd be pretty safe with standard red, but I have heard that she may have had an application of a light green antifouling paint in the 1980's. (The Revell New Jersey kit instructions from 1982 refer to it, for example.) Can anyone verify this? It would be fun to use this unusual color, if it is accurate. Thanks. Tim Reynaga -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: David_L._Miller@ccmail.wiu.edu Subject: colors for Kitty Hawk While I have built many models, I have built few modern plastic ships. I am doing an ARII model of the Kitty Hawk for a client. I have consulted a number of photos and the Kitty Hawk website (Great Picture!) and from these have guestimated some colors. I am dubious of my translation of the Japanese instructions that came with the ARII kit, as they would suggest the hull bottom is painted a shade of green. Before I proceede any further, are there any standard Model Master, Floquil, Tamaya, or Humbrol colors that would be proper for this model? I would be interested in recommendations for: Hull bottom Hull and Island Flight Deck Thank You. Dave Miller -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Laura Shaffstall" Subject: HELP LOL I have had this dream of building a ship and having the radar turn, guns rotate, lights on the deck and tower light and the props turn... What kind of motor set up or book on this info do you or anyone else recommend. It would be greatly appreciated as I have been thinking about this for about 15 yrs.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Norman C. Samish" Subject: What are "A arcs"? >> There is actually no clear evidence as to who actually knocked out the Bismark's fire control. Most indications point to the Rodney being the ship that disabled the fire control because she was hitting quite effectively and had opened her A arcs at the time. However, no one really knows. I agree with the comments about the Counties, they've always been one of my favourite class of ships as well. << Chris, This is a fascinating subject and thanks for the information. Now, what do you mean by "...and had opened her A arcs at the time." Thanks, Norm Samish -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "Edward F Grune" Subject: Re: Best Carrier Erik Erhardtsen wrote: >> Best aircraft carrier from WW2? What about Shinano? Armour like the british, but more aircraft. And what ship could survive 6 torpedo? With an experient crew, Shinano could have done it. << From Silent Victory 1940-1945 in the Winter issue of Undersea Warfare e-zine: http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/cno/n87/usw/issue_6/silent_victory.html "CDR Enright positioned himself perfectly at a range of 1,400 yards and launched six torpedoes, four of which scored hits. Convinced that her heavy armor and intricate internal compartmentalization would render the new carrier invulnerable, the ship's captain pressed on without slowing for eight hours after the submarine attack. The Archerfish witnessed the end of Shinano's battle with the inrushing sea as the Imperial Navy's newest asset then rolled over and sank." Note that only 4 of six torpedos struck. And maybe adequate training and preparation in damage control might have saved her. The quality of a navy must be measured not only by the by the amount of a ship's armor - but also by the quality and training of the men who serve. Ed Mansfield, TX There are only two kinds of ships - submarines and targets. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Jeffry J. Fontaine" Subject: Re: Illustrious V Essex Debate--USS Franklin In the posting from Chris Langtree concerning the Illustrious Vs Essex argument, he mentions the greater loss of life aboard the USS Franklin after being struck twice. I believe that he should have chosen another "example" for his argument since the facts surrounding the USS Franklin's severe damage are known to have been caused by large quantities of heavy rocket ordnance that was staged in the hangar deck waiting to be used in the next rearming and refueling evolution for Franklin's air group. One of these weapons was the "Tiny Tim" Rocket which consisted of a modified 250 pound semi-armor piercing aerial bomb as the rocket warhead attached to an 11.75 in diameter rocket motor, a very dangerous combination when exposed to fire and explosion. Once this exposed ordnance starting cooking off, it provided additional fuel for the conflagration that followed after the initial attack. This was a major cause for the greater numbers of casualties aboard the USS Franklin and should not be overlooked. I recall that the U.S. Navy achieved similar results on one of the Japanese carriers which they attacked while the Japanese air group was in the middle of a rearming and refueling evolution on the flight deck, the resulting catastrophic secondary explosions and aviation gasoline fueled fires contributed to that carriers demise. If the USS Franklin had not had these large numbers of dangerous weapons exposed on the hangar deck during the attack, I believe that the loss of life and damage would have been much less. Regards, Jeffry Fontaine Bremerton, Washington -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Lisa and Bill Wiseman Subject: Knox Class FFG I was wondering, are there were any Knox Class Frigate kits still in production? Scale isn't important. Though, for cost and ease of display, I prefer 1/700. I seem to recall a resin kit out there someplace but can't remember the specifics. (Having more & more "Senior Moments" as time goes by.) Any help would be appreciated, Doc Wiseman Hi Doc, AFV Club put out an injected 1/700 USS Knox a few years ago. I believe it's still in production. IIRC, it met with favourable reviews as well. Regards, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Taraochan@aol.com Subject: Re: Forest Sherman Hello Everyone Someone asked about the Forest Sherman Cl DD's and kits. In case anyone is interested, the USS FORREST SHERMAN (in the middle 70s) had names painted on each of the three gun mounts - "Judge", "Jury", and "Executioner", in blue paint in cursive style. I recall this from photographs shown to me by a friend who served on the ship during that time period. SHERMAN class DDs were unique in that they were 1200 psi steam plant destroyers (the last of their kind). Someone also mentioned photographs of the USS NICHOLSON (current ship to bear the name). This ship and others of DESRON 10 are usally tied up outside my office window, blocking my view of the river traffic. So if anyone wants to know what the color of some radome or deck fitting is, please write me. Cheers, Nelson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: Robert OConnor Subject: My final(?) word on Essex v Illustious Class SMMLies- After all the controversy thrown up over the "who had the best WWII flattop" thread,I personally am not convinced of the overall superiority of either class.As I said in a prior post, both had distinct advantages and disadvantages, and history only records their respective accomplishments and failures, not" Shuolda,woulda, coulda". My dad spent 2 yrs on Essex in 67-69 and I was always very impressed with the flexibility of the class to be utilized as CVS and CVA. I always liked the Brit flattops too and respect the abilities and differences designed into the class. Suffice it to say, both had major design and operational impact on generations of carriers to come. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "David Mullins" Subject: Re: USS Oregon kit Hi, SMMLers! I need the following dimensions from the Glencoe USS Oregon kit: beam @ deck level to nearest 1/64" length @ deck level to nearest 1/64" Thanks in advance! David Mullins Amarillo, TX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Re: CVLs in Indo-China Michael C. Smith wrote- Subject: French CVLs in Vietnam >> Can anyone point me to any good sources for information on what the former US CVLs Belleau Wood and Langley (Bois Belleau and Lafayette) did in Vietnam in the 1950's while in French service? My understanding is that they were used to support French interest in the region, and I am interested in what they did and what aircraft they operated. << There's a photo of LAFAYETTE in Squadron's "Riverine" by Jim Mesko (1985) that shows various aircraft on deck but the quality of the picture isn't great. Several Hellcats and Bearcats and/or Corsairs are visible. The text states that the ship was acquired in 1951 and relieved ARROMANCHES in early 1953 until withdrawn for overhaul. BOIS BELLEAU and ARROMANCHES provided air crew support (to the defenders of Dien Bien Phu) mostly flying F4Us. Mike "Arctic Alexandria", VA USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: James Corley Subject: Re: PacFront New Releases >> 1/700 Loose Cannon USS John McCain (Mitscher class DL)...$42.00<< >> Geez it took me a minute to realize that Loose Cannon was the kit producer and not a political comment........... (yeah, I know, the ship is named after his father). << Tom, actually, the ship is named after is grandfather, Adm John S McCain of WWII fame, not the Adm John S McCain of Vietnam Fame (nor Lt John S McCain of Vietnam) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: "Bruce Simard" Subject: Viking Models Gents, Just a question for the list, Has anyone seen or built the Viking Models PBR and LSSC in 1/72nd scale? How are the kits, details, are they worth the time and effort ? Since I love the "Shallow Water Gunboats", plus they are my era, just wondering. I appreciate any info you could share, Thanks. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29) From: James Corley Subject: Re: Illustrious the best? certainly not >> The RN did not have 1st line carriers in the Indian Ocean in April 1942? When HERMES was sunk? Really? Ever hear of INDOMITABLE, FORMIDABLE? They were there with the Eastern Fleet. After the IJN got through with Ceylon and the outlying elements of the Eastern Fleet, James Somerville retired his entire fleet to East Africa. Not until 1944 could the RN raise the forces necessary to venture into the Indian Ocean again. << Hmmmm, my Chesnau book (Aircraft Carrier of the World, 1914 to the Present...limited as it is) sez the following about these two: INDOMITABLE: She was damaged during Pedestal and "Obliged to return to Britian for repairs. She helped cover operations off Sicily in the spring of 1943." (p106) FORMIDABLE: Damaged on 26MAY41, repaired by NOV41 and "She continued in the service in the Mediterranean until the autumn of 1944." (p106) The same source doesnt give credit to ILLUSTRIOUS or VICTORIOUS for operations out of Trincomalee in 1942 either. My other, better source "Aircraft Carriers" by Norman Polmar (Doubleday, 1969) does state that Adm Somerville did have these two ships in his Eastern Fleet at Trincomalee, along with HERMES, WARPITE, 4 other WW1 era BBs, 6 RN & 1 Dutch cruisers, 16 DDs and "Several" subs. The narrative, however, makes no further mention of the operations of these two carriers or of any contributions they made in stalling the IJN in the IO. In fact, neither's combat record is mentioned again until the Madagascar raids and the Sicily landings, respectfully. Polmar suggests the Madagascar raid was only a side-show action to support Allied goals in Malta, and could be **stretched** to be part of Pedestal, as mentioned by Chesnau. If the ships are there and apparently engage in no major combat operations, did it matter. Please educate me on their IO ops, as my sources are apparently inadequate as far as the RN goes, but then again I'm not into the RN or the Luftwaffe (typical Yank attitude I suppose) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 30) From: mprager@juno.com Subject: Re: Iron Shipwright Wickes/Clemson Destroyer in 1/350 scale >> Iron Shipwright will be releasing a kit of the Wickes/Clemson class Flush Deck Destroyer on March 1, 2000...This kit also includes all the parts necessary to build the kit as ANY variant of the four stack destroyer from approximately 1930 on... << Are included to build the Destroyer Minelayer (DM) or Destroyer Minesweeper (DMS) variants? Matt Prager (A Minesweep Sailor) Ingleside, TX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 31) From: "George J. Stein" Subject: Re: "Zhong Shan" Chinese warship I bought the kit when I was in China last year at a Sun Tzu conference. (I haven't tried to build it yet, so this a "looking in the box" review.) The ship was sunk by Japanese aircraft. She was a two-stack what I would call "gunboat." Armament appears to be fore & aft open-back turret single guns, four "shielded" lighter guns, and a couple heavy machine guns on the bridge. Manufacturer: Zhengdefu fax # of company: 0591-3718813 [that's in China] Scale (as given on box) 1:180 (actual kit length is 34cm) full-hull with stand. availability outside China - unknown - I've never seen it advertised. {Carol??? US shops???} The kit instructions are very clear exploded diagram type, with six sections, including rigging scheme. Kit is very cleanly molded with all smaller parts (bollards, capstans, doors, hatches, guns in five pieces, not counting separate gun shields, etc.) molded individually. All ship's ladders & stairs provided. Only parts needing scratch-building are the deck rails. {instruction sheet provides templates to guide your sprue-stretching - and warns against burning your fingers] Color scheme (as given) is "ferric red" below waterline, "grey" otherwise, with "original {unpainted??} wooden color" decks. Mounting stand & nameplate. Picture of built kit on instruction sheet looks good. Recommendation: a unique part of any collection. One note however: Don't read the English translation with food in your mouth. For example, the Chinese equivalent to "suitable for children above the age..." section reads, in part, "it's fit for teenagers to do it by themselves, develop their intelligence, add to their knowledge, improve their imaginative and creative power. We believe that children will surely make this historical noted warship by their hands and wisdom." Now if someone on this list with research files can just find a photograph of the real "Zhongshan" we'll be in business. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 32) From: Keith Butterley Subject: For sale :-) Hi group, New Years Eve did not work out as I'd anticipated. Consequently I'm offering the following items for sale: .5 Caliber machine gun with tripod, 1,000,000 rounds of ammo with tracers 2 100,000 gallon capacity reservoirs (One filled with gasoline, the other filled with fresh water) 2 Honda 1000Kw diesel generators 1000 lbs. Beef jerky 2 Katydyn 150 gallon per hour water filters 3 person bomb shelter. (must be extracted from the ground) Geiger counter 16 land mines (you must have a metal detector to purchase these items which are buried in the yard) Assorted camouflage clothing ensembles BOOKS: 1 copy of "The predictions of Nostradamaus" 1 copy of "How to perform an emergency appendectomy on yourself" 1 copy of "What to do when the antiChrist approaches your bomb shelter" 3 copies of "Killing the other people in the bomb shelter is not going to solve anything" Please contact me off list for prices. Keith Butterley Now wasn't that more fun than the "my carrier is better than your carrier" thread? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 33) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Re: 1:350 scale 4 piper >> This kit also includes all the parts necessary to build the kit as ANY variant of the four stack destroyer from approximately 1930 on, including the 3"50 cal. escort modification, the 4"50 cal. escort modification, as well as the ships of DesDiv80, which included the USS Ward DD-139, which fired the first shot of the Pacific War. << Hi; Since you do say any, do you include parts for the 4-piper captured by the Japanese and repaired for use as a patrol boat? Books are packed for moving, but I believe this was USS STEWART. Chuck Duggie From Los Angeles where they just predicted rain for the last few days of next week. I move next Friday!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 34) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: Various Hi Guys Concerning the debate over the RN Illustrious Class to the USN Essex class. I think that the factors that the two countries had concerning there design was was their operational outlooks. The Illustrious class was built with operations in waters close to home or the Mediteerean where they would be surrounded by airfields. Don't forget airplanes then didn't need concrete runways just leveled dirt by a bulldozer to take off and land on. The Essex Class was built with the long distances of the pacific in mind and we did have more shipyards to work with plus an industrial base that wasn't interfered with as was the UK who imports all it's supplies by the sea and had to go thru U-boat subs or Luftwaffa of Germany. As to Pearl Harbor I will look at the Dec1999 issue NIP on this, I like to keep an open mind. I haven't criticized President Roosevelt if I was going criticize him in the beginning I would have written "This book clearly provides the evidence that President Roosevelt definitely planned to get the US in the war by means of Pearl Harbor regardless of the loss of life" However I like to keep an open mind and if you look at history for the last 40 yrs politicians have used deception and I don't like to be naive. President Roosevelt is one of the top Presidents of the 20th Century but if he used the events of late 1941 for a purpose then look and say it as it is. Winston Churchill had the same situations as well I believe over the bombing of the cities during the blitz. That's my opinion and I welcome to hear others. Craig -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 35) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Re: Oriskany (& Forrest Shermans) on ebay Rusty, I searched high and low on ebay and never could find the JSP kit listed. Was it near the end of the auction when you saw it? If not, did you happen to catch the item number? For those who were looking for the old 1:319 Revell Forrest Sherman, John Paul Jones, etc kits, I did see a number of these on ebay, most of which were going for less than $10. Then, for those with money to burn, there were a number of old Renwal kits listed. Most of these are going for over $50. I didn't write them all down, but I recall seeing a couple of Springfields, a Pasadena, and a Lexington. There was also a Revell Los Angeles from the 50s listed. Just thought I'd mention these. Dasvidanya! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org http://www.onelist.com/community/iscandar-66 http://www.onelist.com/community/USS_Oriskany -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 36) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: USS John McCain >> Geez it took me a minute to realize that Loose Cannon was the kit producer and not a political comment........... (yeah, I know, the ship is named after his father). << Actually I think it's his grandfather, the McCain that was one of the "fast carrier" commanders in WWII. His father was a fleet commander (I don't know the details) in SE Asia when McCain was a POW. Michael Smith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: CA139JOHNF@aol.com Subject: SMML Convention Hello fellow Listmembers, I have sent the updated Convention info to our listmaster, Mike, for posting on the web site. Registration information is included. More details will be forthcomming as we work them out. If you would like to share your knowledge on any related subjects in a seminar or Q & A forum, please let me know. The ball is rolling and we need to know if you are planning to attend. Don't be shy, please let us know. This is your convention. John Frohock USNSM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: SCALSHPYRD@aol.com Subject: Re: USS Virginia >> Does anyone know of a maker of 1/96 fibreglass hulls for USS Virginia (CGN)? I'm not sure I can face plank-on-frame!!!! << >> You might try THE SCALE SHIPYARD, 3727 166th Place S.W., Lynnwood, WA, USA 98037-7072. Phone: (425)743-1434. They carry a large selection of modern warship hulls and fitting in 1/48 and 1/96 scales << Actually, we do not produce a hull for the Virginia class CGN's yet, this is one of the few Modern USN hulls that we do not make. A lack of the proper hull lines kept this one from being done, but I'm still looking for these drawings. We currently produce about 135 hulls. The address given by one of our members is my house in Washington State, I'm rarely there. Our shop is still located in Long Beach Ca. and our new 2000 catalog is $8.00 in the US & Canada and $12.00 elsewhere. Sent to: The Scale Shipyard Internet sales 5866 Orange Ave. #3 Long Beach, Ca. 90805-4146 Lee Upshaw -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Iron Shipwrong? Mr. Warneke posted a statement about the fact that "His" four stack USN DD kit is the only accurate one on the market. You are going open up a big can of worms with a statement like that, especially from you, and your "Accuracy" of your kits, like the small parts, get it, Jon? The 1/350 USS Ward kit from Classic Warships is a very nice model that will definitely hold its own if some want to compare. You wont have to return it because of a casting problem either. Classic Warships kits(all) are priced for what they are worth, I dont have to reduce my prices to get sales! You get a quality product, for a fair price. I would never say that my kits are the best, that would be like getting involved in that ridiculous discussion about who has the best navy, battleship, carrier, my daddy is going to beat up your daddy, etc., etc. I can say that I do have VERY extensive access to historical references, which is where the information comes from that is compiled in the Warship Pictorial series books that I publish (working on #7 & #8), and the design of the kits that I produce. For more info on them and my kits go to www.classicwarships.simplenet.com If people want a quality resin kit, then look to company's like White Ensign, MB Models, JAG Collective, WSW, Waveline, Corsair Armada, Samek, Delphis, Loose Cannon, B-Resina, and of course, myself, Classic Warships. These are the manufacturers who make "Accurate" and well cast resin ship kits, and you can also find all of these in one place in the USA, Pacific Front Hobbies! I would hope that people examine kits before purchasing them, maybe even compare? You will be surprised! Enough said, Steve Wiper - Classic Warships -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume