Subject: SMML VOL 805 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:19:26 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: End of the world - not 2: Re: HARD (IMPOSSIBLE?) TO FIND KITS 3: Mike Ashley's new book? 4: Correction 5: Re: In Harm's Way (still) 6: Foam Hulls 7: Re: foam construction 8: Wood? 9: Re: Flags and Pennants 10: Huge debt 11: Re: Ouestion: Kirishima Aircraft "42" 12: Re: Painting water 13: Flower class corvette 14: Re: CIWS improvements 15: Ticonderoga 16: Sommerville and the night 17: HMS Jupiter 18: Re: California 19: Re: Armored Cruiser plans 20: Waving flags 21: Re: Kirishima Aircraft "42 22: Re: In Harms Way 23: CIWS 24: Re: Syringes 25: Re: BPF & Harms Way 26: Re: Pre-Dreadnought Kits -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Model Shipways Paints 2: Announcement from W R PRESS 3: Wanted: Glencoe Subchaser Kit 4: DELPHIS 1/700 AQUILA JUST IN 5: SMML Convention reminder -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS Hi gang, I'm gonna cop heaps for this - but what the hell ;-)) HAPPY BIRTHDAY to Mike Dunn - SMML's webmaster - may he get all the presents he wants. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Mark McKellar Subject: Re: End of the world - not >> Yesterday, a subscriber stated that I had made a bet with him that when Y2K came around, ie. 1 January 2000, the "end of the world" would be upon us and that I had bet him a Gold Medal Models photoetched shipset based on that outcome. << And here I thought Ted Kazinski had been locked up... Mark -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Fernando, Yohan" Subject: Re: HARD (IMPOSSIBLE?) TO FIND KITS Here are some suggestions: CLEMSON-class DD (early 1930s)- there are a couple of kits of four-pipers. One of them could be used as a starting point. Off the top of my head, there is a WSW USS Borie and a USS Ward from Classic Warships (I think). USS TOPEKA (1946-1948)- Skywave has 2 nice Cleveland-class kits, the Cleveland in an early war fit and the Miami with a square-bridge and late-war AA fit. The Miami kit would be the closest match and may not need too many changes as you would like to depict the Topeka right after the war's end. USS TERREL COUNTY (LST 1157) 1964-65)- There is only one 1/700 LST kit that I know of and it is a plastic kit from Skywave of a Mk II LST. I don't know of LST 1157 was of the same design or not, but if not, it might be used for the basis of a conversion. The Skywave kit contains 2 LSTs and I've seen them in my local hobby store and on Ebay. They are old kits and may no longer be in production. As to the others on your list, can't think of any kits off the top of my head. Good luck! Yohan Fernando -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Ed Grune Subject: Mike Ashley's new book? Steve Wiper wrote: >> Mike Ashey has written his second book on ship modeling, titled "Basics of Ship Modeling-The Illustrated Guide." This will be published by Kalmbach sometime in March, this year. I have been told the book contains approx. 400 black and white, and 30 color photos. There is much more coverage on resin kits in this book, with the captions being very informative. This should be very good. << The "Meet Mike Ashley" sidebar following his Big Mo article in the current FSM says that his fifth book "Modeling Realistic Tanks and Artillery" is due in Spring, 2000. The title that Steve cites is not listed in the sidebar. His other books are: 1) Building and Detailing Scale Model Aircraft 2) Building and Detailing Scale Models Ships 3) Model Aircraft Tips and Techniques 4) Tips and Techniques for Building Scale Mdoel Ships. Does anyone who works with FSM subscribe to this list and can give us the straight poop? Ed Mansfield, TX I saw Steve's picture that Caroline posted on the WEM site; all I can say is: ...TOGA TOGA TOGA! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Correction In my post in the previous vol of SMML I should've said USS California CGN-36 (not 26). DOH! Dasvidanya! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Fernando, Yohan" Subject: Re: In Harm's Way (still) >> Given the poor shooting of the Japanese battleships... << I'm not sure where this assumption is coming from. In the first half of 1942, there hadn't been any actions involving the IJN battleships to give any indication that this was the case. If anything, their gunnery would have been quite accurate, especially in night actions, if you look at the the gunnery record of the cruisers and destroyers at the Battle of the Java Sea and other engagements at this time. During the Guadalcanal battleship engagements, both the Hiei and Kirishima were very accurate with their fire, and it was only after 1943 that they began to display 'poor shooting' at Surigao Strait and Leyte Gulf. At this point, it could be argued that what appeared like poor marksmenship on the IJN's part was really the advanced US rader-controlled fire control showing how much more accurate it was to conventional (optical) fire control methods. Consider being used to getting about 3% hits to shots fired with optical fire control methods (which would have been quite good), and then seeing someone else get 7 or 8% (or more) with radar-controlled guns. All of a sudden, your great gunnery skills seem sorely lacking. (BTW- these numbers are just used for example, but if I remember correctly, 3% hits for conventional fire control was very good). >> The USN were going to make sure that they and they alone destroyed the IJN (revenge for Pearl Harbour) and so any other navy was kept clear as much as possible. << I also think that it was easier for the Pacific Fleet to coordinate large operations with a 100% homogenous US force. Since late 1942, the US Pacific Fleet had operated almost exclusivly in this theatre and had developed advanced methods for supply, replenishment, aircraft coordination, etc that became difficult to manage with new units not trained and practiced in such methods. Not to say that the BPF were lacking in training or skill. They simply had not operated in this theatre for long enough, nor had a chance to thoroughly learn and adapt the new US methods. Yohan Fernando -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Rod Dauteuil Subject: Foam Hulls Good Morning, I'm certainly not going to go off on a tangent about the "best" method of making a hull, because I do agree that fiberglass is the best. But not everybody has the skills to produce a fiberglass hull (including myself). I should clarify that when I use foam, there are several laminates of lauan on both horizontal and vertical surfaces, which are hidden by the final coating. This protects the corner surfaces that would be most susceptible to damage. I use vertical laminates to keep the hull true and to prevent warping. Now about the quality of workmanship, not too long ago there was an article in FSM about a scratchbuilt ship (I think it was an ocean going tug or something?) which was in a diorama with a Jap aircraft wing and dead pilot floating nearby. The builder used the foam/spackle method, and produced an absolutely beautiful model (which is on display at the USNSM/USS Salem). Would FSM show off poor quality workmanship? I think not. These are display models, not toys. As such they are to be handled with care. So everybody has their opinions and thoughts on other people's work, but after all is said and done, isn't this a hobby for self satisfaction and fun? Enough said. Thanks, Rod -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: Re: foam construction >> First of all, a laminate of putty or plaster on foam might crack and flake over time, or warp or sag. But what really bothers me is, although it may look nice when it is new, it is still cheap, poor quality worksmanship. << I know someone put out an email about using soft foam for hulls, but please do not confuse that with Pro-Shape, Precision Board, or Butterboard. These are all high density urethanes, and while some would refer to them as "foams" they are harder than wood, very dense, hold a sharp edge, but have no grain so they carve and machine like a dream. I turn parts on a metal and/or wood lathe from them and sand them glass smooth. Try that with insulating foam. Cheers, Bob Santos -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Lawrence Hare" Subject: Wood? Hi. I was pointed to your list by someone on one of the Usenet groups in response to a query of mine, yet it seems you cater more toward modern ships and steel in particular, but perhaps I am wrong? I am returning to model building after a long absence - kids, schools, college, *sigh* - and I wish to satisfy a long lasting dream and build some wooden ships. I have found a number of kits on the web, some being quite expensive, and I was trying to find a forum for discussion, a listserver, newsgroup, whatever. Would you be such a forum for wooden vessels? Seventeenth, eighteenth, nineteenth century tall ships and the like? Would you perhaps know where such might be found? Thanks for your help. Lawrence -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "J. London" Subject: Re: Flags and Pennants Try using the very thin foil found on wine bottles. After painting it can be bent into realistic folds with tweezers. Michael London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Huge debt Dear Loren, I'm on my way to collect. I shall be travelling across country from Long Island in my trusty and very reliable Cromwell tank (British of course). In the unlikely event of any breakdowns, I know that I can count on help from members of SMML as I pass through where they live. I do not have a driving license but as I'm English I don't need one. Look out the English are coming! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: Ouestion: Kirishima Aircraft "42" >> I'm building the CW Kirishima (1/350) and need some info on the AC on the ship when she was sunk in"42" The Kit has Aichi E13A (Jakes) from the Tamiya Kit in it. This being the wrong AC my question Is what is the right AC? I think it should be either Nakajima E8N2 (Dave) Navy Type - 95s or, Nakajima E4N2 Navy Type - 90-2 or a possibility that it had Kawanishi E7A2 "ALF" Navy Type 94s. Can someone give me a definitive answer to this question and a reference to suppoet it. << CJ, my referances do show one of the AC types to be a Jake, but there is some confusion as to the other type, Dave or Pete? The only reference I found, that was close, was on Haruna, having Jake's and Dave's during the Midway operation. I personally think that there were Dave's on board during this time. Also, you should know that the Japanese removed the AC on their night sweeps and bombardment runs around the Guadalcanal area. There is also a very good chance that the ships boats were left behind during these operations. Steve Wiper - Classic Warships -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Painting water >> So to practice I took an old AKIZUKI and weathered her then over coated in matte. Followed Rusty's directions for water and cleaned off the hull with Windex. One question, do you thin the blue and green acrylics with water or use direct from the tube? << Sorry to take so long in answering. I had out patient surgery and was laid up for a couple of days. I'm very glad the techniques in that article helped you out. I paint my water after the gel sets up. I know some guys who add the acrylic paint to the gel itself, then apply the gel to the base. It works okay that way, but it gives a far more transparent appearance. As I said, I like painting the water after it has set up, because you can blend the paint as well as Drybrush over the waves. You can create a lot of nice effects with that technique. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Melea/Mike Maynard" Subject: Flower class corvette Good Day! I'm building the Matchbox corvette, and plan on constructing it as a "revised" Flower Class that served in the US Coast Guard. The general layout is similar to the kit but the biggest change is the pilot house/bridge superstructure. I contacted the Canadian maritime museum but they only list plans for modified corvettes. Would any builders have suggestions for a source of information for this type of ship? Thanks Mike Maynard -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: CIWS improvements The newest mark of the CIWS (Block 1-B SPUM) has several new features to improve its performance. (1) The gun barrels are longer and much heavier to extend the operational life of the barrels. (2) The new version also has an optical sighting system to allow the gun to "see" the target and match it up to it's database of known threats. (3) With the longer barrels come increased range and accuracy. The gun also has much heavier barrel bracing to stabilize the gun while firing. I am currently finishing up the master patterns to this new weapon and it will be available very soon. See my web site (URL below) to see the current version of the gun. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Darek Lipinski Subject: Ticonderoga Hi Gang, I will be scratch building this ship and so I am on the look out for a good reference material. I've got the Floating Drydock set of plans but it is a rather rudimentary one. The photo tour on the Warship website shows the Antietam which is different in many details. I am looking for a good set of close-up pictures showing Ticonderoga in her early years. BTW did she ever get her above deck missiles launchers replace with the below deck cells ? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Darek -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Sommerville and the night Hi Yohan What you say about the IJN training for night actions is true but their reputation tends to be based on one encounter, the Battle of Savo Island. A comparison of this battle with the Battle of Matapan shows up similar circumstances. The range was very close and the enemy was caught by suprise. Looking at Cape Esperence and Surago Straight a different picture emerges. Neither Japanese force performed well at all and in the latter engagement the force sailed blindly to its doom. Contrast this with the operations of Force K in the Mediterranean (OK there are major differences but you can make some comparison) and you find that not only so the British ships deal effectively with the escorts but also sink the merchant ships as well. Furthermore a British destroyer squadron took out the Haguro in a night engagement. British forces would have also had the advantage of radar (all of them) with the knowledge and will to use it. Couple this with the poor gunnery record of the Japanese battleships and the fact that a lot of long lances missed (even if you knew what you were firing at) and the chances for the British look more than reasonable. This is not to say that they would have won but that they would have had a good chance of victory and certainly enough to justify Sommerville contemplating a night action. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: HMS Jupiter Hi Rob I mentioned that the Jupiter had her aft tubes removed. I've just come accross a note that they were re-installed. Also she had one of her twin turrets removed for repairs and replaced by a single just before 17.1.42. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Taraochan@aol.com Subject: Re: California >> I believe Waveline puts out a 1:700 California CGN-26 << California was CGN-36. Built as DLGN-36. nelson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: Re: Armored Cruiser plans Mike Taylor writes: >> Are there any plans for late 19th century Armored Cruisers - ie - USS New York or any plans available? << Yes, The Maryland Silver Company has plans for some of the Big 10 cruisers (maybe all, it's been a while since I checked the catalog), as well as a number of other ships from this era. The URL is: http://www.marylandsilver.com/ Kurt Greiner SeaPhoto Maritime Photography On board and overhead photography of modern US Navy warships -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Nicolas Protonotarios Subject: Waving flags Hi David, On making flags waving in smaller scales, there is only one really long lasting method (tip from wargamers): You need the backing of metal foil for support and a good surface for decal or preferrably paint. You can use something a bit thicker than simple foil (maybe BBQ heavy foil will do), or thin lead sheet from drug tubes rolled to make it thinner and smooth, or lead sheathing from wine bottle necks if you can get them. On that you can stick self adhesive paper if you are to paint it, or cover the metal with a coat of lacquer if you are going to use decals. The lead especially, may be a little thick, but it will hold its form and protect your colours from cracking etc. All the best Nic -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Mitsuaki Kubota Subject: Re: Kirishima Aircraft "42 A Japanese historian Mr. Jiro Kimata wrote "a decision dated July 14, 1942 shows that Hiei and Kirishima to be carrying two Mitsubishi F1M and one Aichi E13A, Kongo and Haruna two E3N. But this decision shows only the fixed number to be carrying, so there isn't conclusive evidence this decision carried out." Best regards, Mitsuaki Kubota -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "John Sutherland" Subject: Re: In Harms Way Yohan, Sommerville was not, IMHO, considering a night gunnery action. With only the Warspite, 2 County class HC and a bunch of mostly old light cruisers he would have been seriously outnumbered even given the Warspite's legendary gunnery - night and day. The British were very good at night action - Cape Matapan, North Cape and the sinking of the Hugaro proves this. However, Sommerville worked to what he believed was his one strength - night attack by torpedo aircraft. This is something the British used to good effect in every theatre of war when the opportunity presented itself. Sommerville was planning a night attack by the four squadrons of Swordfish and Albacores on his two main carriers - both were experienced in this. The idea would have been to put in a night attack then vanish into the Indian Ocean out of range of the surviving Japanese carriers by daybreak. A tricky manoeuvre which would have required very accurate intelligence. I suspect that if possible he would had little intention of recovering the strike aircraft - the survivors would probably have been told to head for Ceylon. Lack of intelligence on the exact whereabouts of the Japanese fleet sank this plan, the Japanese closing Ceylon whilst he was well out of range. Events showed that Sommerville's tactical appreciation was correct - I cannot recall one single night carrier attack by Japanese aircraft carriers - nor American either - so he had little to fear from a retalitory night strike. It is an interesting What If. A strike of 40+ Swordfish and Albacores would have hit at least a few targets. Japanese anti-aircraft arnament at this stage of the war was very weak, experience in dealing with this kind of attack non-existant, and British experience in delivering it very high. The primary targets would have been the carriers followed by the Kongos. Given the extreme distance from bases the Japanese were operating from any significant damage could well have been ultimately fatal. And if the attack could have been coordinated with land based Swordfish (Hermes's aircraft were ashore) and RAF Beauforts ...... The loss of valuable carriers pre-Midway...... As I said an interesting what if. Sommerville was neither mad nor full of bravado - it was a well thought out plan. It is a shame the RAF and RN reconnaisance aircraft could not provide the info required to make it work. The location only needed to be general - the Swordfish and Albacores carried radar which was used to great effect in locating targets in the Med. John Sutherland Wellington, NZ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Hughes Family" Subject: CIWS A question for those more knowledgeable than I, how effective is the CIWS against aircraft? Not shooting at a tow aircraft but an attacking aircraft. Did the CIWS see action of this type in the Falklands with the RN or in the Gulf with the Coalition Forces? Jeff Hughes -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Syringes >> You can get around using medical syringes (which are very poorly made anyway) by using an adjustable pipetter made by Eppendorf/Pipetteman/Gilson etc. for laboratory use. These pipetters can be set to deliver repetitive accurate amounts from 2 to 1000 microliters depending on size of the "syringe" and the setting on the pipetter. For example, if you wish to squirt out tiny 2 muL droplets on a piece you can just click away. << >> Any laboratory supply company has these great pipetting tools (they go by the name of micro-pipettes, automatic pipetter etc.) << Switching hats here, when not modelling submarines, I direct a molecular biology lab at a major pharmaceutical company. I think you need to mention that an Eppendorf or Gilson pipettor is a precision scientific instrument, and as such, runs in the several hundred ($250-350) dollar range. They also require disposable plastic pipette tips, which aren't cheap either, even when bought in bulk. I would not advocate anyone buying one of these expensive, precision instruments for modelling purposes, there are far less expensive ways to dispense fluids. Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: BPF & Harms Way Chris: My final comments on this (I'm sure most of SMML will be happy). Why attack Formosa? It was thought to be the source of many Kamikaze attacks and was in the area of responsibility of the 5th AF, which hadn't done much in the way of dealing with the threat. The BPF was enroute to rest and replenishment at Leyte when it was asked to strike Formosa on the way. Look at a map of the Pacific and you get the picture. It had nothing to do with ability to resist damage, the point of the exercise was to INFLICT damage. TF-57 attacked Formosa for two days during the entire Okinawa operation. If you look carefully, the BPF/TF-57 was in rather severe straits most of the time due to logistical concerns - so much for the 'modern self supporting fleet' promised to the US. Why should the BPF have been in on the final assault on the IJN? What had the Royal Navy done in the Pacific since Dec 7, 1941? It wasn't Admiral King who restricted the BPF area of responsibility, it was Admiral Halsey and his Chief of Staff, Admiral Robert B. Carney. After all, the USN, with assistance of the RAN and RNZN units, fought and defeated the IJN. As for Somerville and the Eastern Fleet - Yohan has it right. Look carefully at the Eastern Fleet, its Battleline as a group would be hard pressed to steam at 20 knots, and it is going against a Fast Carrier Force. Somerville could not establish and hold contact with the IJN force. His force had not exercised together and had no established plan or procedures. As for a night attack, take a look at what happened in the Solomons. This is NOT a case of the RN attacking the Italian Navy. Except for the CVE group caught off Samar in Oct 44 and HMS Glorious, caught transporting RAF aircraft from Norway, no carrier force had ever been intercepted by a Battleline. Somerville ran because he knew he could not win. If that were not the case, why was it that the only offensive operation by the Eastern Fleet until 1944 was to take the island of Madagascar from the Vichy French for the forces of Charles de God? Why didn't the RN send a carrier to help at Midway? There was a request from Admiral King, but the RN said 'it had no evidence of any Japanese operation in the Central Pacific'. Its been fun. Lets all go back to building ship models. Eugene -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: RCClem@aol.com Subject: Re: Pre-Dreadnought Kits >> are there any kits available of the USS Maine?... << Iron Shipwrights makes the USS Maine in 1/350 and may have a few left in 1/192. Both are in resin with photoetch kits. Roger Clemens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Conan35@aol.com Subject: Model Shipways Paints As it says on the bottle, you are suppose to thin the paints with water. They are 1 oz. bottles, so you end up getting about 2 oz. for your money. Give a good stir with a toothpick, I think you'll find they are less grainy then the Badger paints, and more accurate. Also, we just got in an exclusive, I will have this on the web site by noon today. The USS North Carolina by Revell, Scale 1:570, SALE $12.99, item no. RM5102. We bought the entire production run except for a few which are going to the USS N. Carolina museum. We also still have our A4709 Aztec (Testors) airbrush on sale, and just got in the History of Airfix Book, no. AX1001. All at: http://www.modelexpoinc.com Best Regards Rob Finley Web Site Mgr. Model Expo, Inc. http://www.modelexpoinc.com Serving hobby enthusiasts everywhere since 1974. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Announcement from W R PRESS This is to announce that Flower Class Corvettes in the Warship Perspectives Series is about to go to press. For anybody who is remotely interested in these ships they are in for a treat, with seven sets of general arrangement plans, two dozen camouflage depictions, funnel emblems in color, many fittings drawn out in full detail, and close up and on-board photos. An announcement will be made as soon as the book has been printed and bound, which should be quite soon. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: John_Impenna@hyperion.com Subject: Wanted: Glencoe Subchaser Kit Hi All, Does anyone have a Glencoe Subchaser they would be willing to part with at a reasonable price? Please e-mail me directly. Thanks John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Bill Gruner Subject: DELPHIS 1/700 AQUILA JUST IN We have just received the Delphis Models of Italy 1/700 scale resin kit of WW2 Italian aircraft carrier AQUILA...it is excellent. We have 10 in stock at $89.00 each. See our Featured Model of the Month, the new 1/700 Samek BISMARCK, now posted on our website. We expect our re-stock on this excellent resin kit in a matter of days. Thank you, Bill Gruner Pacific Front Hobbies http://www.pacificfront.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "John Sheridan" Subject: SMML Convention reminder THE CONVENTION IS COMING SOON!!! (May 5th and 6th 2000) I just wanted to remind everyone who plans to attend the SMMLie convention to get building on those models! We do plan on having a ship model contest for those who attend and we want to see a good showing for all of you. Ye, you all should prove to the world that you are not just armchair modelers! . I plan on having the 1/350th Classic Warships USS Guam on display as well as several other models. If you wish to ship your finished model before the convention, please contact John Frohock or myself and we will provide you with a shipping address. Your model will be put into a storage space onboard the USS Salem just waiting for your arrival. We will not open your packaged model when it arrives onboard (that's your job) so please bring a few tools for touch-up in case your model is damaged during shipping. Glues and some paints can be bought locally although the good stuff is a bit of a drive to get. I will have some Floquil and Pollyscale ship colors onboard for those who need it. Good luck and we hope to see some really nice work from you SMMLies! John R. Sheridan SMML convention seminar guy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume