Subject: SMML VOL 839 Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 01:41:04 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: History of PE 2: Admiral Fletcher 3: Re: Minesweeping 4: Re: Graf Spee class 5: Re: SSM defunct? 6: Hard planes to fly 7: Good news for Badger airbrush users 8: Graf Spee class type 9: Squadron Signal artwork 10: Re: Anchor chain 11: Scapa Flow 12: Re: window screen stuff 13: Re: Graf Spee clasification 14: Re: April FSM 15: 1/96 Vogelgesang model & Testors Dullcote disaster! 16: Scharnhorst camouflage 17: Re: Graf Spee Class 18: Re: minesweepers 19: Graf Spee and others 20: Re: Graf Spee class 21: Re: FSM & Hipper 22: Re: Anchor chain 23: HMS Jupiter 24: Prinz Eugen and other items 25: April FSM 26: Duke of York 27: Re: Cutlass 28: U.S.S. Gridley and U.S.S. California 29: Squadron "In Action" 30: WWII RN Numerical Pendants 31: Minicraft Roman Warships 32: Re: Graf Spee class 33: The WEM torture method 34: Armada vs JSP 35: Review 36: Graf Spee Class 37: 1/700 Brooklyn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "John Sheridan" Subject: Re: History of PE >> Loren's stuff was an inspiration to me so I did the artwork and had Photo-Cut do the etching for the P.E.I used on my scratchbuilt 1/96 USS MASSACHUSETTS back in 1983. Ever since then I have used the services of Photo-Cut for all my projects. I did buy one of those little home photo etchers and have used it for many parts but they were never as "fine" as the stuff I had done commercially. << Bob, What ever happened to this model ? John R. Sheridan What I do to Spammers: http://microscale.com/images/N2.jpg I am not a Member of the Lumber Cartel (tinlc) and I am not Unit #631 The last place on earth I would look for the Lumber Cartel(tm) is http://come.to/the.lumber.cartel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "John Sheridan" Subject: Admiral Fletcher >> I think that contemporary opinion of Fletcher wasn't particularly high either. Vandegrift in particular did not have anything nice to say about him. My thoughts are that he withdrew his force from Guadalcanal very precipitately and in the face of little real threat thus forcing the support forces to withdraw and dumping the marines. << If you read about the status of the U.S. Military during the 1930s, you will find that they were infested with people who were anything but leaders. A lot were promoted simply because of status and politics; and the Navy paid dearly for this once these people were suddenly pressed into combat. Most of these types were quietly moved to places to where they could do little harm. John R. Sheridan If I'm talking Decals, then I'm talking for Microscale, Otherwise I am speaking for myself. What I do to Spammers: http://microscale.com/images/N2.jpg I am not a Member of the Lumber Cartel (tinlc) and I am not Unit #631 The last place on earth I would look for the Lumber Cartel(tm) is http://come.to/the.lumber.cartel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Matthew Prager Subject: Re: Minesweeping At last, another minesweep modeller!! John Collins wrote: >> I am currently working on two of Tamiya's 700 scale Japanese auxileries: A Harashima class minelayer and Minesweeper #19... Does anyone know of any photos or other resources showing minesweepers minesweeping? Are paravanes attached to these ships in much the same manner as recently described for the Iowa class BBs? If so, any seabase showing minsweeping would seem somewhat anticlimatic << John, Minesweepers streamed thier gear differently from other combatants. I'll have to dig up some info on the IJN sweep methods, but besides paravanes sweep gear uses otters, pigs (floats) and kites. A minesweep model showing the ship underway would sweep wire turbulance and the pigs/flags on the surface streamed behind the ship. There are also specific flags and dayshapes flown during minesweep ops. Contact me off list and I'll see what I can do to help. Matt Prager (a minesweep sailor) Ingleside, TX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Fernando, Yohan" Subject: Re: Graf Spee class I think these three ships were called 'Panzerschiff' by the Germans-basically armored ships. The term 'Pocket Battleship' was coined by the Allies and never used by the Germans themselves to refer to the class. This term was also used less in technical terms and more in a figurative sense. There was more drama to calling these ships 'battleships', but very little technical basis for the name. Most of us on this list would probably quickly realize that these ships lacked most of a battleship's defining features and were really up-gunned heavy cruisers. Even the term protected or armored cruiser seems a bit misleading in my opinion. They were designed to circumvent the restrictions placed on Germany by the Versailles Treaty and eventually to serve as commerce raiders, so don't fit in neatly with the common WWII cruiser classifications which usually are differentiated by gun size as dictated in the Washington and London Conferences. Light cruisers had 6" guns or less, while I think the definition of a heavy cruiser was the size of guns being greater than 6". So even though most heavy cruisers had 8" guns, the 11" guns of the Panzerschiff would have still fallen in the definition of a heavy cruiser. They also were supposedly built up to the 10,000 ton limit of the Versailles Treaty for all German warships, which happens to corrospond with the later Treaty limit on cruiser size for all nations. Another similar case of a not so clear cut class definition is the Alaskas- (very) heavy cruiser? large cruiser? battlecruiser? People like to debate this one alot also, and I think large cruiser is the proper classification, but I won't go into it here... Yohan Fernando -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Steven P. Allen" Subject: Re: SSM defunct? Scale Ship Modeler is gone???????? Tell me it ain't so! That was the only magazine that treated scale R/C (rather than those damn speed boats). I'm gonna cry! Steve Allen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Fernando, Yohan" Subject: Hard planes to fly >> In reality though, the plane deserved it's "Widow Maker" rep as it was a very difficult plane to fly, and resulted in many an inexperienced naval aviator's death. << The F4U Corsair was another plane that I read was difficult to fly- it was nicknamed the "Ensign Eliminator". Kind of funny in a morbid way. Yohan Fernando -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "EJ Foeth" Subject: Good news for Badger airbrush users I went to my local hobby shop for some replacement parts for my 150 Badger airbrush, and i've noticed a new nozzletip design. I really advise Badger users (also for the 200 and other series) to replace that nozzletip with the new design. The new tip does not collect paint as it is a lot shorter (and has four forward facing small points), so there won't be any sputtering of the paint during airbrushing. The finish is better, and very little cleaning of the nozzletip is required, if any at all, a problem with the older tip, often ruining the finish. I've also switched to a smaller needle (I needed to spray very thin lines for an armour model, and found this to be very difficult with the medium top) with a smaller paint flow, and also found this to be better. It will take a lot longer for airbrushing hulls, but for small parts, I have far better control over the final finish, and I can avoid paint buildups better. Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "EJ Foeth" Subject: Graf Spee class type The Spee's are overarmed cruisers. Cruisers are normally 6" or 8" armed, but the Versaille treaty forced the designers to a maximum tonnage of 10,000 tons (British tons, 1016kg/m3, so they could actually be slightly larger than 10,000 metric tons). Thus a 11" gun was incorporated in 10,000 tons, which is really silly. You could call them very heavy cruisers, but they are really an exeption on normal designs. These exceptions are not uncommon, just take a look at a monitor, armed with a single twin 15" turret. The Spee's armour is very unsuited for combat against ships with 11". Normally, a ship is designed to at least withstand it's own caliber, but with this design, the filosophy was to outrange normal cruisers. The result is a very odd class, therefore the name pocket battleship. The germans referred to them as panzerschiff, meaning armoured ship. Their design follow-ups, the Scharnhorsts, are also tempting definition. They are heavily armoured for an 11" gun ship, and a battlecruiser is a ship characterised by its low armour. Calling them underarmed battleships is also not correct, as their slim hull form is again typical for cruiser designs. If they were rebuild to 15" gun ships, they might have sufficed as very fast battleships, or perhaps heavy battlecruiser? They would be better armoured than their british flawed counterparts. Literature is also calling them both battlecruiser or battleship. The Bismarcks were true battleships to the definition, though certain people claim them to be cruisers, due to light armour. This is not correct. Though the effectiveness of armour layout may be a point of discussion for all battleships, there was little compromise for armour, armament or speed with these ships. The following H class is just a next step in the evolution of the german battleship, with an increase to 16" guns, already adopted by the US navy, though compormises were to be made for the first 16" US BB's, with the South Dakota being extremely cramped, and the North Carolina's underarmoured, and the Iowa is the first balanced 16" design. Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Squadron Signal artwork Just a note about the artwork on the old and new Squadron Signal books. Several years back I was in Chuck Haransky's (the owner) office at Squadron interviewing for a job (didn't take it). I was having problems focusing my attention on Chuck because his walls are filled top to bottom with the original artwork for the covers of all the Squadron books to date. These works of art are much more impressive when viewing the originals. I know it's off topic, but it was quite impressive. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Anchor chain >> Can anyone tell me where i can get anchor chain in 1/700 scale and also in 1/350 scale, thanks gang. << I use chain made by Campbell Scale Models. They make it in several numbers of links pre inch. I buy mine at a local railroad hobby shop. If there's no railroad shop near you can find it on the Walthers web site. Sorry, don't know the URL, but I do know they have a web site. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Chris Law Subject: Scapa Flow Hi Shane, Saw this piece in the Glasgow Herald newspaper and thought it may be of interest to SMMLies: An Aberdeen company has captured 3D images of what remains of the First World War German Grand Fleet which was scuttled in Scapa Flow off Orkney in 1919. On June 21 in that year, with his fleet interned in Scapa Flow, Admiral Von Reuter, the commander of the German High Seas Fleet, ordered his officers to scuttle their vessels at anchorage. Following years of extensive salvage operations, only seven of the 74 which went down now remain, but they are visited by scuba divers from all over the world. Kongsberg Simrad Ltd, which specialises in marine electronics for offshore and ocean survey markets, used a portable multi-beam echo sounder on board a boat to produce three dimensional maps of the wrecks in their final resting places. The images reveal some of the vessels on their side with the others upside down, turned turtle by the weight of their gun turrets. They have also produced similar images of the HMS Vanguard, which exploded in 1917, and the HMS Royal Oak, torpedoed by a German submarine in the Second World War. The seabed images and details of the operations are to be made available to universities and industrial institutes to assist in training marine technology students. The surveyors made several passes over the sites, and the images have been enhanced by computer technology. Mr Dave Ireland, managing director of Kongsberg Simrad, which led the combined group of oil industry experts and hydrographic surveyors, said they were thrilled with the results. "This is the first time these tragic reminders of the two world wars have been seen in this graphic way using these advanced techniques," he said. The scheme was conceived by the company's operations support team leader Mr Ian Florence as a practical demonstration for a seminar held in Aberdeen by the University of New Brunswick. "There was tremendous excitement when the first images appeared on the screen," he said. "It was the Markgraf." He said that when the survey vessel was over the site of the Royal Oak everyone present was aware of the tragedy surrounding the location. HMS Royal Oak was sunk in October 1939 by torpedoes from a German U-boat which penetrated the defences at Scapa Flow. A total of 833 men died in the biggest naval disaster of the war "It was a very sombre and eerie place," he said. - Mar 2 Cheers, Chris. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Vincent Mccullough" Subject: Re: window screen stuff Al Ross said: >> I've used Detail Master's modeling screen for a variety of items, including intake screens and radar. It appears to be nylon mesh and comes in 74, 109, and 140 lines per inch 8" x 10" sheets. The mesh is square. Neither product lists an address ... << Detail Master's address is listed on the NRG web site: http://www.naut-res-guild.org as: Detail Master P.O. Box 1465 Sterling, VA 20167 Vince McCullough NRG Webmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Joe Costanzo" Subject: Re: Graf Spee clasification The Admiral Scheer class were most certainly not battleships. They were given the name by the press and it stuck. These ships are hard to classify but by virtue of their size and heavy armament I would say Heavy Cruiser is the best way to group them. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Frank and Carol Berger" Subject: Re: April FSM I believe you need to read the article on the F7U closely and realize that this is the April issue (April 1!) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Loren Perry Subject: 1/96 Vogelgesang model & Testors Dullcote disaster! Mike is far too generous with his praise on my venerable old destroyer model. But for what it's worth, Scale Ship Modeler magazine is still alive the last time I checked which was a couple of months ago. Challenge Publications of Canoga Park, California is still the publisher. SSM went through a few changes after I left the post of editor almost ten years ago, but it's apparently come back pretty close to its roots although the page count per issue has declined. And Mike, the "sailor painting the bulkhead" diorama is actually on my 1/96 scale USS Long Beach (CGN-9) which is currently part of the Los Angeles Maritime Museum collection. This is the one with the red lead undercoating showing through. The Vogelgesang has another "sailor painting" diorama which shows one enlisted man looking very upset after he'd accidentally overturned his paint bucket while a shipmate is trying to calm down his outraged chief petty officer shown "throwing a hissy fit" nearby. This diorama was located on the destroyer's fantail while the Long Beach's dio was amidships on the port side. Some of the PE parts used to dress up the DD's dio included a paint brush, paint chipper, and scissors (for cutting the roll of masking tape.) I tried to capture life aboard a USN warship of the early 1980's as closely as I could because I used the model in my U.S. Navy recruiting duties at that time. It made it fun to describe Navy life to young potential recruits when I took the model to school functions, fairs, and the like. Also, during the early 1980's the USN was transitioning from the short-lived double-breasted enlisted uniforms of the late 1970's back to traditional bell-bottoms. For a year or two, there was great leeway allowed Navy men as they gradually replaced the old with the new, so at the time I modeled DD-862, almost a dozen different uniforms were authorized at one time. The sixteen miniature figures of officers and men aboard the model each wear a different uniform, all authorized for wear at the time. This makes the model a detailed record of a unique time in Navy history. The model of the Vogelgesang is currently crated up in storage. Reason - I oversprayed the entire model with Testors Dullcote when I built it and as the years passed, it yellowed severely, giving the Haze Gray a distinct greenish hue. I need to find out if I can remove it because I'd hate to have to repaint the entire model due to heavy use of special decals, dry transfer markings, and such that I employed during it's construction. I've heard that denatured alcohol removes Dullcote without harming the paint beneath. Is this true? I could use some help here! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: SAMI ARIM Subject: Scharnhorst camouflage hi guys, i was checking the old sb book from warships fotofax series "German battleships 1897-1945" by R.A. Burt and came across a photo that i didn't realize before. Photo 77 shows the Scharnhorst in a sploch pattern camouflage kind a like US measure 12 mod, early war typ. The photo is not a good quality, but the scheme is very visiable. The date is april 1943, around the Duke Of York encounter. Does anyone have any information about this scheme. This type of camouflage usually calles for different port and starboard pattern and i doubt there is an accurate reference available, but it is always worth the try. this would make a great looking model. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Roland Mar Subject: Re: Graf Spee Class TO: "graham" Here's what I have on this: The designation of these ships was caught up in the conflicting legalities of Germany's treaty obligations after WW I. After the Treaty of Versailles, Germany was restricted to what the treaty called cuirasse (should be an accent over that last e). This translates as "armor clad ship". Thus the original Reichsmarine designation of Panzerschiffe (armored ship). It had to be less than 10,000 tons, and was restricted by what the Allies would allow to 11" guns. The Allies were thinking of something along the line of a coast defense monitor, similar to the scandinavian coast defense battleships. Admiral Zenker was faced with a roles and missions argument for the German navy in 1924-25, and made the decision to go for a commerce raiding cruiser type design. Eventually the Deutschland class was produced as Panzerschiffen starting in 1928. Complicating this was the series of naval treaties between the wars that defined what a cruiser was. In theory, a treaty heavy cruiser could be no heavier than 10,000 tons and carry no larger than 8" guns. Keep in mind, that with the exception of the Brits, I think everyone fudged on the tonnage. The actual tonnage of the Panzerschiffen was a few thousand tons over limit. The press invented the term "pocket battleship" which had no official backing. So we have a ship class that was designed to outwit the Allies conception of a coast defense battleship, that was smaller than a real battleship, but carrying guns and tonnage over that of a defined cruiser. Finally, in February 1940, after the war made the point of the treaty designations moot, the OKM redesignated these ships as heavy cruisers. Go figure. Therefore, there is ammunition for all points of view. I personally tend to consider them as rather unique vessels and use the German term Panzerschiffen collectively for them, but that is just my own way of sorting this out. Hope this helps. Roland Mar -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Roland Mar Subject: Re: minesweepers TO: John Collins I don't have any graphics covering Japanese minesweeping, but you might want to look at "Allied Minesweeping in World War 2" by Peter Elliott [USNIP, ISBN 0-87021-904-9] for some photos and diagrams that might help with the techniques and concepts generally. Harashima class minelayers? Minesweeper #19? In 1/700? Pardon the dampness from my drool. Could you tell me where you got them? Are they injection or resin? Hope this helps Roland Mar -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "James Morley" Subject: Graf Spee and others And what a thread this will turn out to be...... The Germans called them Panzerschiff(e) - meaning "Armoured Ships", but this was really a Treaty of Versailles work around (like the alleged 10,000 ton displacement). In reality, the 11 inch guns, and large size (even by Japanese standards) make it difficult to refer to these ships as cruisers even though they were built to fulfill a cruiser-type mission (commerce raiding). I think "Pocket Battleship" is a fairly good name - it's diminutive enough to imply what would happen if any of these ships encountered a "real" battleship. James Morley -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "FCR" Subject: Re: Graf Spee class Hello to all Well I believe that the original name says everything. Panzerschiff means armored ship. First they don't have any features similar to one heavy-cruiser. They are slowest, bigger, heavier, well armored and with heavier guns (6x11' and 8x5.9'). I don't know of any heavy cruiser with this features on it. Besides we all know what was the primary mission for the panzerschiffs, raiders. By the way, heavy-cruisers were the Hipper class. I believe that in a ship to ship battle the HMS Exeter didn't stand a chance alone against the Graf Spee, the british ship had many lucky in the River Plate battle. Happy Modeling Filipe Ramires PORTUGAL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: FSM & Hipper Hi Guys Thanks for your replies about the article in FSM.I suspected that it was a joke but it was beautifully done so I thought I thought I'd share it with you all. As far as the Admiral Hipper kits from Revell go yeah they're original Revell produced in the late 1960s and early 70's. Hope that is of help. Craig -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Kelvin Mok" Subject: Re: Anchor chain >> Can anyone tell me where i can get anchor chain in 1/700 scale and also in 1/350 scale, thanks gang. << Do pay a visit to a jewellers supplies store in your city. They carry a large variety of chain sizes and shapes in anodized gold, silver or oxidized bronze. They come in reels and are sold by the foot. There will also be a large selection of fittings for making your own jewelry, fittings that can have modelling applications. This kind of store also carry an impressive stock of craft working tools that are of professional quality, better than the model working tools you find in the average hobby shop. It will be like being a kid in a candy store all over again. Kelvin Mok -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: HMS Jupiter Hi all You may or may not remember that I posted an item re the Jupiter having one of her twin turrets replaced with a single 4.7. This was A mount which had been hit in the action with I-65. There is a photo of the action but all this shows is one wing of the destroyer with a rather indistinct submarine in the background. Chris Langtree Shane- you are a spoilsport! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "Graham Holmes" Subject: Prinz Eugen and other items Someone said: >> But seriously, why not just settle for 1/400 scale injection molded kits? We've already got the Bismarck, Prinz, KGV, PoW, Hood and Illustrious (all couresty of Heller). All we need are few RN DDs, four key cruisers, the Rodney, the Ark Royal (the real hero!) << Look a little further and they are already made. The Nelson(Rodney), Norfolk, Sheffield and Cossack are made in 1/400 as card models, which are not too bad. I have one made, and am using another as a template for a styrene model. From these one can do Dorsetshire, and with a little work, the Suffolk. All that leaves are the destroyers, and by using the Mirage Grom hull and the card kits the Tribals are possible with a bit of work. Just the smaller destroyers and Ark Royal are left, but at a bit of a loss there. All these are available from Marcle models plus other soruces. Sorry don't have the URL handy. With exception of the Hood and Illustrious(also available in card), all of the above could probably be had for the cost of one resin Hood in 1/350 scale. I know it would be a nicer model, but who could afford to make all of them in that scale. More power to Heller, more kits less $ GBP DM FFr AUS$ etc Graham Holmes Columbus OH -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "Doremus, Mark" Subject: April FSM John Sheridan, Craig, and others GOTTCHA! Mark Doremus Un-indicted co-conspirator Eden Prairie, MN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: "John Rule" Subject: Duke of York >> Anyone know what camo the Duke of York was wearing at the time of the Scharnhorst action. I have one reference that indicates she was carrying 38 20mm singles. Any possibility of figuring out where the 20s were located. << Duke of York was from March 1943 to September 1944 in a scheme of G10 hull (dark grey) and G45 (light grey) upperworks. According to Dumas in his articles in Warship magazine DoY was completed with 6-20mm single oerlikons. April 1942: 8 20mm single oerlikons added (5 on forecastle, 3 on quarterdeck). March 1943: 24-20mm single oerlikons were added (2 on after boiler room vents, 4 abreast B turret, 6 on No 1 platform, 4 on each side of the catapult deck and 2 on each side of deck forward of X turret). According to Raven and Roberts in British Battleships of WWII page 290, DoY was completed with 6-20mm single oerlikons; by April 1942, 8-20mm single oerlikons added; between Dec 1942 and March 1943 a further 14-20mm single oerlikons added. On page 296 of the same book it states that 6-20mm single mounts were fitted in late 1941; 8-20mm singles added April 1942 and 12-20mm singles added in mid 1943 with 5 others being relocated from behind the breakwater. You may have to consult some photos. Both of the above sources are excellent and are highly recommended for anyone's personal library. John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: "Ann Sinkankas" Subject: Re: Cutlass I saw this feature and assume it was a special feature of the April, that's APRIL issue. As far as I know, no actual Cutlasses served in Vietnam, or in any other war, thank God! They were so underpowered and landed with such a high angle of attack that they were accidents waiting to happen, or that did happen. The book titled _The Wrong Stuff_ by [name forgotten; search by title] discusses the author's misadventures testing the Cutlass for the USN. Wasn't the planes in Vietnam, it was the missles-- 13% hit rate for sidewinders, 9% for sparrows, or something like that-- from another great book I read but now can't remember either title or author! GMS (losing his mind...) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: AZJOE1445@aol.com Subject: U.S.S. Gridley and U.S.S. California Hi Folks, I am getting ready to begin painting a Classic Warships U.S.S. Gridley in a 1942 fit and the Iron Shipwright U.S.S. California in it's 1944 fit. I remember seeing in a past volume that the undersides of horizontal surfaces were painted either white or a shade of light gray. Would this hold true for the Gridley painted in Ms.11 and for the California painted in Ms32/16d? Also, I have photos of the port and starboard sides of the California for the Ms32 pattern but I don't have a clue as to what decks should be. Were they painted all 20-B or were they painted 20-B and 5-O gray? And if so, where can I find a photo or drawing of the decks pattern? Thanks for any help anyone can offer. Joe Kreutz -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29) From: "sctrtrash" Subject: Squadron "In Action" 1012 is B-17 in Action. Mark Krumrey New RIchmond WI -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 30) From: "John Reid" Subject: WWII RN Numerical Pendants Can anyone in SMML-land provide me with the colors used for RN numerical pendants "4", "5", "9" and "zero" during the second world nastiness? I believe zero is green/white/green, but would like confirmation on this from knowledgeable sources such as are found on this link. As for the other pendants, I haven't a clue. Is there a site, somewhere, that deals authoritatively with such arcane matters? Thanks, in advance, for any help any of you can offer. John Reid -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 31) From: "Bill & Kaja Michaels" Subject: Minicraft Roman Warships Let's talk pre-pre-pre-dreadnoughts for a moment... Any experience out there with the Minicraft Roman (31 B.C.) Warship? I was curious about them, but they sold for about $30 (US) in the local hobby shop, and I wasn't THAT interested. I just won one on an E-bay auction for about $5. (There's more available-- somebody has about a dozen of them that they're trying to sell all at once-- I don't think there's that many buyers!) Anyways, I figure I couldn't go wrong for $5 plus shipping, form a seller with a high feedback rating......... So, is this kit worth my time? Or is it complete fiction? Bill -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 32) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Re: Graf Spee class Okay for the 50th time (cause I suspect I won't be the only one to reply to this ). First it was the Dutchland or Lutzow cl, not the Graf Spee class. Nit picker point, probably doesn't count. Second, the German term was Panzerschiff (sp??) which translates to Armored Ship. Most of the (legit) refs I've seen tend to refer to the ships as "Armored Cruisers". Some refer to them as Heavy Cruisers, but IMO that's pushing the treaty definitions a bit far. Protected Cruiser might be an appropriate term, except IIRC (in the USN at least) that was the old pre-Washington Treaty term for a second class cruiser (an Armored Cruiser being a first class cruiser). I'm sure someone here on the list could tell us what the difference between a first and second class cruiser was (and TBK, I'd be interested in hearing it). My ->guess<- is an Armored or First Class cruiser had larger guns and better armor than a Protected or Second Class Cruiser. Then there was the Third Class Cruiser (re: the USN Peace Cruiser: a fancy name for a gunboat assigned to foreign stations, typically in the asiatic) As I told a gent on another list I'm on a few weeks back, the term "Pocket Battleship" seems to have come from the common layman term mill. Battlecruiser seems to be another term applied to these ships by some refs, but IMO, the last of the true battlecruisers were HMS Hood, Renown, and Repulse. Comparatively, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Dunkerque, and Strasbourg were "Small Fast Battleships" (as they had armor comenserate with their main batteries). Comparatively, perhaps the USN term of "Large Cruisers" would be a more apt description of these ships. Of course, it isn't official, and it would be as debatable as the term applied in reference to the US Alaska cl ships. That's my 2 cents on the matter. Go Navy! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 33) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: The WEM torture method As much as I love battlewagons, cruisers facinate me. Last night over coffee, a buddy read off the list of WEM's coming soon list. All those RN cruisers. What are you trying to do to me, Caroline? TORTURE ME? Aheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! All that lovely resin, so little time, worse, so little money! See wallet. See wallet collapse into nothing like a black hole. That's it...I'm going to have to get a second job to support my habit which will leave no time for my habit. Doesn't make sense does it? Oh well, I'll just have to keep saving my pocket change. Oh...I only had 2hrs sleep last night and am suffering from an overdose of caffiene. Perhaps that explains the odd rambling nature of this and all my posts tonight. Go Navy! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 34) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Armada vs JSP To Mike C.... My apologies for the mix up between your Corsair Armada Phoenix with the JSP Honolulu. Daggumit, I got cunfoozed again. Insert foot, bite down, chew, swallow, digest... Go Navy! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 35) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Review I need a slight favor. About a month back, I worked up a really quick and dirty primer to the various types of 20th century ships for a gent on another list I'm on. He seemed to like it quite a bit (my ego hasn't received that big of a boost in months), and it's been suggested I put it up on my website as a reference site. I only got up/down to Cruisers (I started with battleship types as that's specifically what he asked for), so eventually I'll have to work my way down the list to smaller types. As much as I've studied this area, I'm sure there are some gaps in my knowledge that could be pointed out. Therefore, I'd like to have someone review them to make sure the list is A) correct for the most part (call it basic ship types for dummies, s'alright!), and B) I didn't leave a type out. All together, the list is about 20K, so I'm very hesitant to post it here on the list. It would be very intrusive IMHO. If anyone would be willing to a read over and provide me with a little feedback, please contact me off list. Go Navy! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 36) From: "Pletscher-Lenz-Schneider" Subject: Graf Spee Class The DEUTSCHLAND class (not GRAF SPEE class) was originally rated as Panzerschiffe (armoured ships). They were developped as replacements for over-aged pre-Dreadnought battleships under the terms of the Versailles Treaty as follows: Panzerschiff A = Ersatz (replacement) PREUSSEN = DEUTSCHLAND Panzerschiff B = Ersatz Lothringen = ADMIRAL SCHEER Panzerschiff C = Ersatz BRAUNSCHWEIG = ADMIRAL GRAF SPEE DEUTSCHLAND was re-classified as Schwere Kreuzer (heavy cruiser) and re-named LUETZOW on Nov.15, 1939, and SCHEER was re-classified as Schwerer Kreuzer in Dec. 1939. GRAF SPEE remained a Panzerschiff throughout her career. Non of them was never called a protected cruiser. Falk Pletscher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 37) From: "kenny_II" Subject: 1/700 Brooklyn Thanks to everyone that has replied to help out with this. I hope to have one of these guys under construction soon. Thanks again, Tim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume