Subject: SMML VOL 846 Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 00:12:36 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: C.S.S. Alabama 2: Re: Naming of U.S. Navy Ship 3: Mariner's Mirror 4: Longeivity Art and Ship Models 5: Revell Lexington & Midway Instructions 6: Doyusha Shinano 7: Photographs and the USN 8: R/C for Tamiya Missouri 9: Classic Warships Alaska CB 1 10: USS Iowa 11: 1/350 Forrestal 12: Re: Butch O'Hare 13: Re: On Naming U.S. Warships 14: Re: Value of Models 15: Re: Flint 16: Ship name rant? 17: Re: Ship model valuation 18: Ships' battle ribbons 19: Connie 20: Re: resin versus plastic kits swedish guy's post SMML VOL 843 21: JAG Forrestal 22: RNZN/RAN jacks 23: Furutaka still available 24: USN Camouflage Measures 25: Flower class book 26: China vs. Taiwan The Naval Order of Battle 27: Re: USS Iowa -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: DWa7000007@aol.com Subject: Re: C.S.S. Alabama Howdy folks: Regarding the C. S. S. Alabama, historians know exactly what it looked like. The Alabama's original construction planes still exists http://www.slis.ua.edu/tgtest/cssala/MAIN.HTM CSS Alabama Digital Collection and a photograph of the her has surfaced. Danny Walden -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Rick Lundin" Subject: Re: Naming of U.S. Navy Ship The writer of this thread is correct in citing political expediency in naming the later Nimitz-class ships. One cannot help feel that this is one result of more and more members of Congress not having served in the military and having no appreciation of the traditions of the Naval and Military services. It is demeaning to the Naval service to name its captial warships after politicians. Many manbers of Congress have been honored by the naming of destroyers (traditionally named after heroes of the sea services, inventors who benefitted the navy and members of Congress who supported the sea services). Rep. Carl Vinson and Sen. John Stennis were both prominent members of Congress whose support of the militiay in general and Navy in particular were legendary - but they should have destroyers not carriers. Naval ships should honor the nation: states, cities, rivers and other geographical features. Naval ships should honor the nation's history: Valley Forge, Chosin, Normandy. Naval ships should honor the history of the Navy: Constellation, Coral Sea, Midway, Decatur, John Paul Jones. For almost two decades naval aviation was encapsulated in two names: Lexington and Saratoga. For the first time in almost three quarters of a century there is no Lex or Sara in the fleet. Instead we have the Reagan and Truman. The officers and sailors of the Navy have fought from one end of the earth to the other for over two hundred years, they deserve so serve on ships whose names reflect that history or service and sacrifice. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Nuno J. V. Rubim" Subject: Mariner's Mirror I need some articles published in several past issues of the Mariner's Mirror, for investigation purposes. Does anyone know where can I order photocopies of the wanted articles ? Does any SMML member is affiliated to the Society For Nautical Research ? Thank you Nuno Rubim Portugal -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: GrafSpee34@aol.com Subject: Longeivity Art and Ship Models Excellent idea Mike! Mainstream thinking in the art world holds that unless a crafted object is really old or really funky its not "art", and therefore less valuable than "art". Then again, these are the people who once scoffed at Van Gogh and who now put elephant dung, fishtanks full of basketballs and blobs of lard (I'm not making this up) into art museums. Just because art critics generally dismiss talent and verisimilitude does not mean that we model builders are not producing fine art. A good model or diorama is a work of art and craftsmanship that deserves respect. Treat your work as fine art and others will too. And build 'em to last. Model ships have timeless appeal; they will certainly become the treasured antiques of some future generation. Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Ralph & Karen Batykefer" Subject: Revell Lexington & Midway Instructions I am in the process of rebuilding the USS Lexington (AVT) and the Korean era, straightdecked USS Midway. I built them when I was a kid and now need the instruction sheets. Does anyone have the instructions that they could make a copy of and send me? Thanks ahead of time, Ralph -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Bob Mills" Subject: Doyusha Shinano Hi gang Have any of you had any experience with the 1/250 Doyusha Shinano? Any insight would be appreciated. I'm a Yamaholic, BTW is there a 12 step help group for us?, and am very interested in that class of ships. I'm currently working on the 1/200 Nichimo Yamato and have built the 1/350 Tamiya Musashi. Thanks for the help "Doc" Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "James Johnson" Subject: Photographs and the USN Several weeks back, there was a short thread on getting into trouble by taking photographs where they were not allowed. I have a sea story about when I was on active service aboard the USS America in 1967. (For those of you who were not in the Navy, the difference between a fairy tale and a sea story is that a fairy tale starts out "Once upon a time" and a sea story starts out "Now this is no s#%@" Every once and a while we would run "Operation Big Inch" when the "special weapons" were handled. I can't tell you they were nukes because that was restricted information. When they were handled, certain of the repair parties were mustered, made to wear full gear and have fire hoses charged to the nozzle. This was because, in case you don't know, explosives were used to trigger the "special weapons". If there was a problem and the explosives went off, the "special weapon" wouldn't detonate, but the explosives would scatter the radioactive contents around. I used to feel sorry for the guys who had to do this. They were there for hours on end. Each "special weapon" had an armed marine with it. You could not come within 20-30 feet of it without having the Marine challenge you. When operation big inch was announced, everyone was reminded that no cameras were allowed above decks. If a camera was seen, it was confiscated and returned without any film after the operation was complete. Several days before we pulled into Valencia Spain we ran operation big inch. During this time, three "special weapons" were mounted on the centerline racks of three A-4E Skyhawks. These were then parked across the aft end of the flight deck and left there while we were in Valencia. We drew too much water to pull into the harbor so we had to anchor out and take liberty launches in to fleet landing. Any one who had a small boat and a 35mm camera with a 200mm lens could have rowed out and taken as many pictures of the "special weapons" as they wanted. As we used to say, there is a right way to do something, there is a wrong way to do things, and then there is the Navy way. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Keith Bender" Subject: R/C for Tamiya Missouri I've built and ran a Tamiya Missouri many moons ago. I used an electronic speed controller and played it by ear for speed. To run at scale speed in 1:350 is like watching paint dry so you will want to run a little faster, enough to keep ahead of the current or wind. I used the two five bladed inboard props that came with the kit. They are under pitch when it comes to scale appearance but they worked fine in the water. There really is no need to power all four on this scale of a model but it can be done. I also used the rudders that the model came with. Since I used the inboard screws there was plenty of prop wash thrown at them and she turned on a dime. I hope this helps some. Happy sailing, Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Keith Bender" Subject: Classic Warships Alaska CB 1 I thought it should be known even if some feelings get hurt and I don't mean to do that in the least bit. I have been building ships for 33 years and seen a lot come and go. The resin kit market has changed a lot in offering many new models that we would never see come from the big plastic companies. I have see my share of resin kits and built many of them. I've purchased some good ones and many bad ones, I won't go on too many details. I have just received my Alaska from Classic Warships today and I was blown away on how good this kit is. After giving it the once over I took it out of the box again to give it another look. There is not allot of prep work to be done here. Some resin kits I have spent more time prepping, scratchbuilding and bondo-ing for many hours. The purpose of a kit is to get away from scratchbuilding, at least that's what I thought. A good example was I purchased a battleship kit, I won't mention any names but I returned it due to the fact the deck was not suppose to have any shear. Not only did this model have a shear it had a triple shear, yes just like a roller coaster, up and down etc... I received the second hull and it was the same. So are these resin companies blind or what. I would be embarrassed to put out something like that and ask for some money. I run my own business and quality and pride over rule quantity. I have never had a return on a product. So my point is and to put it bluntly, All of you resin companies out there or at least most of you should pick up one of Classics kits and really look it over to see how you can improve your own. Steve Wiper has put out top notch kits and I will be proud to tell anyone that. It feels good knowing you got your moneys worth. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "James Morley" Subject: USS Iowa I did the Iowa after the feathered edges were starightened, and the colour photo's I have seen indicate 5-N (Navy Blue) regards James Morley -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "James Morley" Subject: 1/350 Forrestal Joe, Is this a wind-up? (very cruel if so) If not........ Gimme Gimme Gimme !!!!!!!! If it works (and sells) would you consider Nimitz? (excitement getting the better of me here) Or alternatively a conversion set to backdate the Tamiya Enterprise so that we can use GMM's lovely Hi-Viz airwing decals?? I'll stop now, because I'm starting to dribble on the keyboard. James Morley -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: John_Impenna@hyperion.com Subject: Re: Butch O'Hare Hi All, To Rob Brown, who writes" >> John Lundstrom has written a superb 2 volume history of the USN's fighter pilots in 1942. Volume 1 is called The First Team and Volume 2 The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign. It's the only history I've seen that has been enthusiastically received by veteran pilots as seen in a review in The Hook. As an example of the amount of detail, he has the names of all the Japanese pilots involved in the epic battle off Bougainville, when Butch O'Hare flying from the old Lexington got 3 (not 5) in one mission. << I am curious as to where this "revised" total of 3 comes from? All accounts, including eyewitness accounts, such as CMDR "Jimmy" Thach's action report, his Medal of Honor citation as well as I believe(but have not yet read it, much to my chagrin) Lundstrom's new book; "Fateful Rendezvous": The Life of Butch O'Hare, credit O'Hare with 5 of the 9 Betty bombers. I am interested as to who is re-writing history in Butch O'Hare's case? Please let me know. I would be interested in reading it. Thanks. John Impenna -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: James Corley Subject: Re: On Naming U.S. Warships >>OK go ahead and name CVN-77 Constellation - but boy are the guys on CV -64 going to be pissed off !! So would that be Constellation A & B :-) << No, they would both be USS Constellation, but it would be CV-64 and CV-64A ... remember ............ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Tim Perry" Subject: Re: Value of Models This question of value is an interesting one! As far as an insurance company is concerned, it would be interested in how much it would cost to replace the item if it was damaged, destroyed, or stolen. Tell them it took 400 hours to make, current rates for professional modelmaking at maybe £30/$50 an hour, plus materials, thats £12000, or $20000. See what sort of premium they quote you.....They would cash your premium cheque pretty quickly, but then see then wriggle out of paying one penny more than they thought they could get away with! And don't hold your breath waiting for the settlement to arrive! Cynical? Yes, but so true! Realistically you could only put a nominal value on something produced as a hobby, and put your best efforts into preventing the damage or loss in the first place. Either that or become a "Modeller Modeller" rather than a "Collector Modeller" and place no value on your finished models whatsoever. I refer my honourable collegues to my previous answers to this matter........ Best wishes, Tim Perry (whose employers charge his time out at even more than these rates, even though he sees only a fraction of it. It is called commercial reality apparently.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "graham" Subject: Re: Flint DOH I forgot got that I had the Warship Perspectives until you mentioned it. Suppose really I MUST get the new book cases built, it would make it easier to find out what I have and have not. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Ed Grune Subject: Ship name rant? Rant! Moi? How many subscribers on this list also have access to Proceedings? I know that this List has discussed the pros & cons of naming the USS Ronald Reagan and the USS Jimmy Carter - after living ex-presidents. There - I've covered both the Republicans and Democrats - so I won't offend. CDR Borchoux did not mention the Reagan in his article. He pointed out the inconsistency of naming the members of the Seawolf class for a sea creature, person, and state. The list of prospective carrier names, including Constellation, was CDR Borchoux'. He also made the point that a ship will need to carry-on the name Enterprise when she de-commissions in the 2013 time-frame. I *LIKE* the name Langley for CVX-78. Perhaps the Navy should consider paying one last piece of poltitical patronage - then have all the follow-on CVX-78 class members named after famous carriers. I know we've lost Dave baker from this list. Do we have anyone else with input to the ship naming inner circle? Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Dbrown303@aol.com Subject: Re: Ship model valuation >> Hi Derek, Would this be your 1/350 Texas by any chance? I know there are specialty insurance firms that can value such models. Also might try galleries that sell such things. I have a freind who sells through a gallery in Annapolis. They apparantly have a formula for determing a value. (My friend has sold several scratchbuilt sailing ship modles this way - Baltimore Clipper, J-boat, etc, for around $3,500) << Hi Larry, Yes - this would be the Texas. Thanks for the ideas! Derek -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Douglas Bauer Subject: Ships' battle ribbons I'm building a model of a World War II-era USN fleet oiler and as part of the display base I want to include copies of the battle ribbons and distinctions she won. I've written to two former crewmembers about it, but haven't heard anything in quite awhile from them. I also wrote to US Navy archives, but haven't received a response from them, either. Anybody got any ideas where I could get info on a ship's battle record? Thanks, Doug Bauer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: James Corley Subject: Connie Got my Proceedings today, the article sez Connie will be gone by the time CVN-77 commissions, so no big deal there. Another point in the article sez that Battleships are traditionally ships whose main battery is 8.5" or greater. I suppose that means the Alaskas, Panzerschiffs, Hood and other "Battlecruisers," "Large Cruisers," and "Pocket Battleships" are really just variatnions of the basic battleship. Well, I'll rest easier knowing that this subject has finally been settled! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "feed" Subject: Re: resin versus plastic kits swedish guy's post SMML VOL 843 P.Bergschold got a standing ovation ( from me at least) Thanks god somebody have from my point of view a very well founded opinion about this matter.I believe a great number of modellers cannot afford the higher prices resin kits are. I know they are very detailed and accurate however I think they don't deserve the cost benefit you got. At this point you got a dilemma. Whether should you build a nice historic ship or to build some new one just been laid off from shipyards. Picked them up from the hundreds of resin models offered by these companyes or to build one just came out from the scattered injected plastic kits available in the market. Despite of the majoriety of modellers are from USA or Europe there are a few we live in very far away countries where prices are expensive due to nasty shipping and handling stuff or the hated tax we have to pay for. Regards smmlies -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Robert OConnor Subject: JAG Forrestal SMMLies, As Joe D'amato stated in yesterday's post, yes, I was at the shop and I am a witness to the fact that JAG IS DOING A 1/350 scale FORRESTAL. Not a bad looking start, though it's still in the rough first stages. BIG flight deck,and BIG hull. As for it being as big as me, well,I've never been "man mountain Dean" but if it's bigger than me, it's certainly heavier than Gene Largado, one of the exceptional model crafters at JAG. Hold your breath, gang...if it's anything like their other offerings, it'll knock your socks off. Stand by for some other goodies,too. Don't know what they've publicised, but suffice it to say that the model cruiser world is going to be a bit more crowded, not to mention a sorely needed USCG subject. DROOL!! Hate to tell you too much-"need to know" and all that- they might not let me in the shop if I spoil too much. Then, I'll just show up with a search warrant (my stock in trade) and confiscate all that "contraband" resin - (hey, it looked like crack cocaine, judge!!!). Stand by for some great stuff!! Bob O'Connor in Florida, where Spring has sprung and Bike Week is in full swing-(all those one to one scale biker babes in black leather and boots!) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Clifford Franklin Subject: RNZN/RAN jacks Up until 1941, New Zealand ships flew the British White Ensign and the Union Jack, as they were grouped as the New Zealand Division of the Royal Navy. In 1941, the Royal New Zealand Navy was formed, but they continued to fly the RN White Ensign until 1968, when the New Zealand Ensign was introduced. This had the Union flag in the corner, a white field, and four red stars in the shape of the southern cross in the fly. The jack had been changed in 1941, when RNZN vessels began flying the NZ Blue, which is the same as the New Zealand national flag. This has a blue field with the four red stars outlined in white. For the Royal Australian Navy, the jack they use is the Australian national flag, which has a blue field and six white stars, along with the union flag in the corner. I'm not sure when it was first introduced. The ensign is similar, but with a white field and blue stars, and was introduced around 1967. cheers Cliff Franklin New Zealand -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: SJantscher@aol.com Subject: Furutaka still available Hi All, Simple question, is this Blue Water Navy kit still available? My "resin supplier" seemed to indicate that it is out of production, and not the normal in-and-out of production of resin ships. His normal BWN wholesalers can't get it. Any ideas? Finally can afford it, can't find it. Steve Jantscher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "John Sheridan" Subject: USN Camouflage Measures I have added a new section devoted to USN camouflage measures to the shipcamouflage.com website. This section has a sample and description for every official USN camouflage measure used during the WWII era. http://www.shipcamouflage.com/measures.htm Enjoy! John R. Sheridan www.shipcamouflage.com What I do to Spammers: http://microscale.com/images/N2.jpg I am not a Member of the Lumber Cartel (tinlc) and I am not Unit #631 Last last place on earth I would look for the Lumber Cartel(tm) is http://come.to/the.lumber.cartel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Flower class book OK: Who is selling the new book on Flower Class Corvettes. Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: Christopher Crofoot Subject: China vs. Taiwan The Naval Order of Battle I know a few issues back there were some questions about the Taiwanese Naval forces that might have to go up against the ChiComms... I found a link that pretty much has definative info on it...if you follow it to the home site you'll also see that Naval matters world wide can be found. There is coverage of US ships from the Constitution to the Arsenal ship to CVX and every grey lady under US flag. If modern US Naval matters interest you you should hit this site. The URL is: FAS: Taiwan Crisis: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/taiwan-crisis.htm PS: the ChiComms making Bluewater SSBNs really fills my drawers...gulp. Chris Crofoot -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: SCALSHPYRD@aol.com Subject: Re: USS Iowa The USS Iowa had several photos taken of her during the time she was at sea with the measure 31a/1b, the feathering was I believe only on one side, and only for a short time. It was not planned nor drawn this way, the feathered edges were there only because the ship was ordered to sail before they had time to complete the paint job. I used to know an old Bosn mate who sailed on the Iowa during this time and when we were going through a bunch of his old photos he related this information with me. W.Lee Upshaw The Scale Shipyard -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume