Subject: SMML VOL 849 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:36:36 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Value/apprasial/insurance 2: IJN Equipment Set III (E-3) 3: Re: Naming USN ships 4: Re: Buff color 5: Re: Naming of Ships 6: Re: Ships in San Francisco 7: Any answers? 8: Re: Naming USN ships 9: Importance of ships names 10: Re: scale warship speed 11: Naming ships 12: Re: Buff color 13: Re: Ships Names 14: Oil Prices 15: Re: Buff Color 16: Re: Buff Color 17: Re: Classic Warships Books 18: Scale Speed 19: Re: Ships Names 20: Bismarck Colors 21: Big Gray Ships 22: Model Ships & Art Rant 23: Re: Ship names and vets 24: 5 Minute Epoxy as Insulator 25: Women and Children first?? 26: Re: Cancelled British Naval exercise 27: Re: CSS ALABAMA 28: Naming Ships 29: Jungle Navy 30: Ship Naming.. (yes more!) 31: IJN Equipment Set III (E-3) cont. 32: TSS (?) Berrima -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: CokerRE@aol.com Subject: Re: Value/apprasial/insurance I have just returned from New York and the annual Christie's East maritime auction to read the commentary on valuation of ship models. As someone who has tried to make a go of making a living building models, I can unequivocally say that it is really a marketing/sales skill that determines what one gets for his work. I have seen model builders get five and six figures for their work translating into several times the minimum wage/hour for their effort while others, including myself can not get but a dollar or two/hour for real effort. While I could wax on for hours on the subject, the whole process boils down to salesmanship, marketing, creativity of the product. Any good craftsman, and there are many, can turn out good generic ship models. However it takes a real artist in the sense of a LLoyd McCaffery or Donal McNarry to turn out true works of art that will stand the test of time and generate real value over the long run. For specifics I offer from the Christies auction the following run down from the ship models. The most astounding was a rebuilt Revell plastic kit of the USS Arizona that had been re-worked to her "as built" appearance with cage masts that went for $1,300, but was essentially the plastic kit. An excellent 1/192 waterline scale model of HMS Hood went for $3,200. An outstanding 1/192 scale full hull model of the USS Missouri by Fine Art Models brought $6,000. A 1/8" scale model of the super tanker Nisseki Maru brought only $4,800., while a masterful model of the yacht Aries brought $38,000. A waterline model of the Lusitania on 1/16 scale brought $4,000. and an excellent model of a French ship of the line brought only $4,200. So from these examples one can see that the ship model art brings mixed results and the generic type the least values. While we read of astounding prices models get from time to time, these auction houses are the best gauge of values on a consistent basis. PC Coker/Charleston -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Ismail Hassenpflug Subject: IJN Equipment Set III (E-3) Greetings, SMMLers, Time for the next set, set E-3, including turrets for battleships. My opinion is that you need some good reference pictures (try the Gakken series, or the Kojinsha Photo Series based on the old Marus) in order to distinguish what is good from what is not. The barrels of the guns, in particular, are too thick I believe. In Japan, we can get many varieties of turned brass barrels (1000yen for 8 20.3cm barrels), rather expensive, but far far better. Still, between the different brass barrel makers too there are significant thickness variations, so you have to judge for yourself. Not an easy job without decent pictures and all the items in front of one to compare! Anyway, on to the translation: my comments are either obvious or in capitals Front of instructions - list of contents Row 1: 1. 45cal 41 design 36cm twin gun (angled) - 8m rangefinder (angled) pt.24 - 8m rangefinder (rounded) pt 23 - there were also turrets without rangefinders Use on: Kongo; Hiei; Fuso class; Ise class 2. 45cal 41 design 36cm twin gun (rounded) - 8m rangefinder (angled) pt.24 - 8m rangefinder (rounded) pt 23 - there were also turrets without rangefinders Use only on: Haruna and Kirishima Row 2: 3. 45cal year 3 design 40cm twin gun - 10m rangefinder - there were also turrets without rangefinders Use on: Nagato and Mutsu 4. 50cal year 3 design 14cm twin gun 5. 40cal 89 design 12.7cm single high angle gun (SHIELDED) Row 3: 6. 50cal 41 design 15cm single gun (CASEMATE) 7. 50cal 41 design 14cm single gun (CASEMATE) 8. Rocket projectile launcher 9. 25mm triple bulwarks - use 25mm triple mountings from Set E-2 Rows 4 and 5: 10. 11m motor launch 11. Anchor chains - two rows for large warships - 4 rows for medium-sized warships - remove from backing with cutter - OR: cut a groove in the deck and insert with backing (yeah, try that!) 12. 94 design number 2 reconnaissance floatplane (this would be the radial-engined ALF E7K2) - got the camouflage use the box art. Generally top surfaces Dk.Green (Gunze Sangyo) G15 under surfaces Lt.Gey G35 13. 95 design number 2 reconnaissance floatplane (This would be the E8N2) 14. Zero model observation floatplane (this would be the PETE F1M1) Rows 6 and 7: as far as possible, top to bottom, left to right. 15. 14m special type cargo lighter 16. 13m special type cargo lighter 17. 11m motor boat 18. 9m cutter 19. raidal type boat davits (2 types) 20. spare float 21. 93 design torpedo 22. 91 design torpedo 23. 800kg bomb Lower row first, till end at right: 24. crysanthemum crest 25. anchor 26. 60cm searchlight 27. 110cm searchlight 28. 95 design machine gun control position Upper row, till end at right: 29. aircraft transport trolley 30. catapult trolley for single-float planes 31. catapult trolley for twin-float planes 32. raisable/lowerable radio masts (large and small types) (these would be for aircraft carriers) Reverse side of instructions: Entry 1: 45cal 41 design 36cm twin gun (angled type) This gun was originally a British Vickers product, and as the Kongo was built in the UK she mounted these turrets from the start; Hiei was built in Japan, but a complete set of turrets was imported for her. The turrets mounted on Kongo and Hiei were referred to '45cal assistance type 36cm twin gun'. The Japan-produced type, based on this, was known as the 45cal 41 design 36cm twin gun, and mounted on Fuso, Yamashiro, Ise and Hyuga. The entire turret casing is angled. Entry 2: 45cal 41 design 36cm twin gun (rounded type) In contrast to the imported Vickers produced 'assistance type' guns mounted on the Kongo and Hiei, the last two ships of the Kongo class, Haruna and Kirishima, mounted Japan-produced version with various improvements added. This was the 45cal 41 design 36cm twin gun, the turret of which had rounded sides in an effort to reduce the effect of a direct hit. Entry 3: 45cal year 3 design 40cm twin gun Nagato and Mutsu were the world's first battleships to mount 40cm turrets. In contrast to the 36cm guns which were a British design, the 40cm guns were the first purely Japanese design. Nagato and Mutsu were modernized from Showa 9 (1934) onwards and after the armoured deck was strengthened the turrets were exchanged with those that had been produced for use by the then uncompleted battleships Kaga and Tosa. This kit represents the post-exchange main turrets. Entry 4: 10m rangefinder >>From Showa 9 (1934) Nagato and Mutsu, as part of their modernization, lost their main turrets in exchange for those produced for the uncompleted battleships Kaga and Tosa. Around that time the rangefinders on Nos. 1 and 4 turrets were removed, and 10m rangefinders were mounted on Nos. 2 and 3 turrets. This kit reprsents this configuration. Entry 5: 8m rangefinder The IJN's major battleships with 36cm turrets all undewent refits between Showa 3 (1928) and Showa 10 (1935). At this time the turret roofs were strengthened and the 4.5m as well as 6m rangefinders were replaced by 8m rangefinders. This kit represents the post-refit turrets and rangefineders, of which two types were used. Furthermore, by scraping away the strengthened turret roof and fitting scratch-built 4.5m or 6m rangefinders, you can represent the pre-refit apprearance of the turrets. 8m rangefinder (square type) (Pt.24) example: Haruna, Kirishima, Fuso, Ise, Hyuga, etc 8m rangefinder (rounded type) (Pt.23) example: Kongo, Hiei, Yamashiro, etc Entry 6: 50cal 41 design 15cm singe gun (casemate secondary mounting) Mounted as casemated secondary guns of the 4 ship Kongo class (Kongo, Hiei, Haruna, Kirishima), and 2 ship Fuso class (Fuso, Yamashiro). Entry 7: 50cal 41 design 14cm single gun (casemate secondary mounting) Mounted as casemated secondary guns of the 2 ship Ise class (Ise, Hyuga) and 2 ship Nagato class (Nagato, Mutsu). Furthermore, various of the 15cm and 14cm secondary gun equipped battleships lost a few of their seondary guns in conpensation for the wieght increases brought about by modernization. Also, after the middle of the Pacific War each ship lost some or all of the secondary guns as anti-aircraft armament was increased. Okay folks, that's not all, just all related to the large turrets. I will post the remaining part of Set III (E-3) in the next few days. Cheers, Ismail Hassenpflug, MSc.Eng PhD 1st year: Ionospheric Physics Kyoto University, Radio Atmospheric Science Center -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: James Corley Subject: Re: Naming USN ships Paul Jacobs said: >> Give me a break!!! We didn't need a 600 ship navy to stop Sadam! That's ridiculous. We have sufficient naval forces today with half the number of ships to accomplish the same thing. What's more, we had this great big navy, yet a wholly inadequate minesweeping capability. If the Iraqi's had had a mine warefare capability near that of the Soviets, the navy would have been in big trouble. So who gets blamed for that? Reagan? If anyone deserves credit it's Bush for creating and maintaining the international coalition that prosecuted the war. That was a great accomplishment. Absent that, it wouldn't have mattered how many carrier battle groups we could place in the Persian Gulf. Having said that, the practice of naming carriers after politicians is regrettable. Some of these names (VINSON, STENNIS) have no meaning whatsover to Americans, and others are divisive. I look forward to ships with great names like LEXINGTON and SARATOGA again. << Uh, hello! Does Bush count anywhere under Reagan? If Reagan had not rebuilt the military could Bush have done what he did? Look at what would happen next year. 8 years of declining morale, readiness and overall capability would leave us very vulnerable against a Iraqi sized foe. During the weeks following any military crisis, who is it that gets to draw the line (either in the sand, on the beach or offshore) which we dare the aggressor to cross? It is the Navy. Look at the Taiwan Strait. The entire Taiwanese Navy is geared for one goal: Delay the PLAN until the 7th Fleet (Kitty Hawk CVBG) can get there. With the presence of Aegis ships, Taiwan has a partial umbrella against MRBM attack. I wonder why the navy will be upgrading the forward deployed battle group with SM-2ER Block IV first. I agree that mine warfare is an American embarrassment, but wasn't it Reagan/Bush who started the Osprey MHC (FY86) and Avenger MCM (FY82) programs. Anybody who claims to be conversant in military matters must know that system development takes years, not weeks. The Avenger MCMs were funded in FY82, the Avenger commissioned in 1987, by the time of Desert Storm we had 3 in the fleet, and they all went. If you will remember, the Osprey class was late because the Navy was investing in the Cardinal air- cushion mine hunter, a risky proposition to say the least. Was Cardinal a Carter program, no it was a Leahman/Reagan program that could not mature fast enough. Your criticism of Reagan in the mine warfare arena is unfounded as the root of the problem was established during WW2. Up until the 1960s we had plenty of mine warfare vessels, during the 70s they were some of the first overage and overworked units of WW2 heritage to retire. Nixon, Ford and Carter did nothing substantial to replace our ship borne anti-mine capability, it was believed that helicopters and sleds could do the job alone. It was the rebirth of the 600 ship fleet that brought focus once again to mine warfare. From: "William Oreto" Subject: Naming of Ships >> Some people worry about ships and their names. I guess they forget that society marches on and forgets it roots such as military victories and heroes. Unforgivable, but understandable especially in a free society, made so by many people in uniform. I can only apologize to these men and women. One Captain didn't care what the ship was named. He wanted a ship. To paraphrase John Paul Jones' quote "Give me a fast ship for I intend to go in harm's way". Should we waste our time with this debate about names? << Ship names lead to either good morale or bad morale, some ship names seem to tempt fate and invite disaster. Would you be proud to serve on a ship with a questionable name? How about the jeers from your fellow sailors on other ships? This all adds up mentally and directly contributes to the combat readiness, and the combat effectiveness, of any military unit. Why do you suppose ship names in the past reflected courage, dignity, honor and service? Why didn't the Navy name one of it's ships after John Wilkes Booth? Same idea. We have never had a ship named "gutless wonder" or any such thing. Our ship names, until WW2, traded upon the heritage and honor of those who fought for our freedom and rights. They either honored the men themselves (Bon Homme Richard, John Paul Jones, Decatur, etc.), the battles that secured our freedom (Lexington, Saratoga, Antietam), previous ships of the fleet (Enterprise, Constellation, Ranger) but now they represent current era politicians who have generally contributed to the welfare of the military (no - not enlisted men on food stamps) in general. Carl Vinson stood for the navy with FDR, John Stennis was a great postwar benefactor of the Navy. Truman was named by the Clinton administration and Congress went along because he did not want to risk Truman to kill Reagan. It can be fairly clear, 25 years later, that there will not likely ever be a USS Nixon. Until now, most ships named after politicians have either been veterans or strong supporters of the military. Truman opposed Naval Aviation that it took the Admirals revolt to sway him, IMO the only ship that should be named after him is an Army ship (US Army, W.W.I). Bill Clinton is the first President since WW2 who had not served in some branch of the Military. Jimmy Carter served as a "nukular" engineering officer in the Navy, was very supportive of the Rickover agenda (being a product of it himself) and supported the the construction of 688 & 726 systems. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Marc Flake Subject: Re: Buff color In enamel, I use Humbrol 63 "Sand" -- used to be "Africka Korps Desert Yellow. In acryllic, I recently used a Polly S or Polly Scale paint called "Yellow Brown" or "Sandy Yellow." I think. I can't find the bottle and don't have a listing of those paints handy. Next time I'm at my plastic-pusher's place, I'll look for it and let you know. Marc -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: SSACHSEN@aol.com Subject: Re: Naming of Ships >> That a ship is named Jimmy Carter or Bill Clinton is not important. << Oh yes it is! Ever since they started putting ship names on ballcaps and selling them during Fleet Weeks... :-) Would you want 'Bill Clinton' on YOUR head? s -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: NAVYDAZE@aol.com Subject: Re: Ships in San Francisco Mark, Correction: Red Oak Victory is at Richmond Point which is above Oakland. Mike NAVYDAZE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Phil Gollin" Subject: Any answers? I posted this originally last September - any answers this time around ? "Subject: BRITISH PACIFIC FLEET BLUE Having watched the Latest Naval Time Capsule video (British Pacific Fleet - phase 2) several times (wonderful !) I have a query regarding the "blue" used on the BPF waterline panel. In a series of colour shots of the British East Indies Fleet saying goodbye to the USS Saratoga a procession of RN Ships are shown, basically in the same lighting conditions. The blue panel seems to vary from Light grey with a blue-ish tinge, through a rich light blue through to almost a dark grey. Does anyone know whether this is another one of those "paint-mixing" problems, or is it "just the light" ? Phil" THANKS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: NAVYDAZE@aol.com Subject: Re: Naming USN ships OK, OK I made a mistake too just like I was joking about two "Connies" I forgot there is a B. H. Richard with the Amphibs Excuse me while I wipe the egg off my face. But ya know that is a good point - they have not touched those great name yet for the Assault Carrier. Shhhhhh, they might hear us !!! Mike NAVDAZE. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Importance of ships names >> I could care less if the ship was named the "The Mighty Ducks". What is important to a ship, is she combat ready? Is she proper supplied with material and trained sailors and outstanding leadership? Is she ready to go in "harm's way" at a moments notice to fight for a supply line of cheap crude oil for our allies or rescue American Nationals? Will she safely bring home our fathers, mothers, sons and daughters as well as inflict maximum damage upon the USA's enemies? << I have to disagree. The moral on board any ship is as important as the firepower and readiness the ship possess. To serve on the USS Clinton would have to make anyone with any knowledge of recent past history have low morale. Imagine the digs and comments from the other vessels crew? Sound juvenile and petty? Yes, it is, but this sort of thing must be considered when naming any naval vessel. Given a choice, would you rather spend your term on the USS Burger King, USS Bill Clinton or the USS Forestall. And would you be proud to tell others in the Navy as well as your grand kids on what ship you served? How proud would you be (if you were a woman) to tell everyone you served on board the USS Clinton? Talk about a slap in the face to the women on board! As I said, all this sounds juvenile and petty but politicians should consider the feelings of those men and women who will serve aboard future warships. Morale is the most important factor in any fighting service. Without it, you have 45,000 tons of scrap metal. And Shane, tell Ken Goldman to quit making fun of my spelling. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" Hi Ken, Stop making fun of Rusty's spelling. Afterall, all you yanks can't spell right anyway ;-þ Shane - ducking for cover -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "philip knell" Subject: Re: scale warship speed >> I often pondered the question of 'Scale Speed' and used the metaphor supplied, i.e. it would take the full-size ship 20 seconds to pass a fixed point, therefore the model (effectively being the full-size ship at a greater distance, if you get my point) should also take 20 seconds. However, the people who do tank-towing experiments use a scale speed that is the square root of the scale (i.e. ???1/350????? This is the speed at which the model hull exhibits the same wave-making behavior as the full-size ship. Apparently our minds find the wave-making more suggestive of full-scale speed than the lower speed of the first example, and this is the speed model should use for scale-like appearance on the water. 1/350 ~ 0.0028 ???1/350????0.0534 30 Miles Per Hour = 44 Feet Per Second 44 Feet Per Second x 0.0534 = 2.35 Ft/Sec Scale Speed 880 Ft x 1/350 = 2.5 Ft So it will take a little over a second for the model to pass a fixed object, but it will appear to be moving at full-speed. Try it, you'll like it! Edd Pflum (With motorized boat experience going back to the bathtub.) << i have been reading this list for a couple of months now with interest but never posted but now it's time. all the discussion on scale speed is interesting and i usually go with the square root of the scale theory as it looks about right however there is something else to remember. you may need to get out of the way of something in a hurry. therefore by all means work out your scale speed then make you boat a fair bit faster for a safety margin after all thats what throttles are for. for scale speed just use less throttle with a reserve for emergencies. i personnally make all my boats as fast as possible but i am a wierdo so maybe it's me. phil -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Loren Perry Subject: Naming ships I intended to stay out of this discussion because it seems to be a topic not worth spending my time on, and isn't closely related to modelbuilding. But when I saw the post yesterday that a ship's name is unimportant, I had to say something. As a former professional Navyman myself, I feel I have the right to speak my piece. To begin with, this (naming a warship after anyone, despite their past record) perfectly represents the type of moral relativism that's causing our society to gradually deteriorate. By lowering our standards and then living down to them, we are contributing to the steady decline of our quality of life, and we all suffer for it. If a ship's name is so unimportant, then why do we name them at all? Why don't we just assign them numbers and be done with it? The reason is because a ship's sponsors have a natural need to identify with its creation. And to name a warship after a disgraced President,for example, will have a subtle but negative effect on the crew's morale. Let's take Bill Clinton's name: here is a man who is a disgrace, a serial liar, and a laughingstock to much of the population. Now try to visualize a chance meeting in town between members of the crew of the USS Bill Clinton while on liberty and the crew of, say, the USS Nimitz, named for a genuine war hero and military leader of undeniable reputation. Can you imagine the catcalls, insults, and laughter that will surely go mostly in one direction? How proud of his ship could an average young sailor be under such conditions? How would the skipper of the USS Bill Clinton be able to give an inspirational speech to his men with a straight face? Would this affect morale and the ship's overall fighting spirit? Figure it out for yourself. Many of us would be ashamed to be assigned to a ship bearing such a name, and it would reflect in the vessel's readiness. Machines are nothing until man breathes life into them. Giving names to ships is one way we give life to to our machines. A carefully chosen name can be a source of inspiration to its crew and its country. But by naming a fighting ship after a clownish political figure or someone else of severely tarnished reputation, we are unnecessarily stacking the deck, ever so subtly, against that ship's crew. And morale does matter. No decent sailor would consciously elect to allow harm come to his ship simply because of whose name it bears. He would certainly work as hard as possible to protect his ship and his mates from the enemy's actions. But without that certain "spark" provided by good morale, (sort of a seagoing version of "the right stuff"), his best efforts will not be as good as they could be. This could be the deciding factor when facing a determined and highly motivated enemy. That's why naming a ship, and doing it carefully, is still important. Sure, nicknames are always going to be attached to ships. Some are good, others not so good. Nicknames like Starship, Big E, Johnny Reb, Mighty Mo, Big Moose, and so on are inspirational to the crew, and their morale is higher because of it, or at least not in spite of it. Other nicknames, such as Forest Fire (Forrestal), can be a reflection of a previous action or disaster the ship was involved in, but usually does not represent shame or disgrace. There is a very big difference. Most of us, I believe, have had it up to here with moral relativism and all the things that it entails. I for one try to keep my personal and professional standards higher than the national average. Just because "everyone does it" doesn't make it right or good. Maybe this makes me sound vain or haughty, and if so I apologize for that. But I won't lower my standards to match someone else's just because it's the easy way out. I say, keep those ships' names inspirational. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: Re: Buff color >> Currently I am using a Testor spray named Afrika Mustard, number FS 30266 for the Buff colored parts. Seems to simulate the coloration I see on the box covers (and a few of the web page gallery pictures) but I'm sure that an official navy color exists. Need a touch of help with this one. << "Buff" has always been a tough color. For the past several years I have been using Testors Model Master "wood". I find that it comes real close to several oil paintings and hand colored photos that survive from the actual era of the ships. Bob Santos -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Paul Jacobs Subject: Re: Ships Names >> Does a name matter or the existence of the ship, well supplied, well trained and with good morale matter? << That writer thinks it is arrogant that military men should object to the naming of ships after politicians? Yet at the same time, he talks about "good morale." Well, morale IS important. In most nations, soldiers and sailors fight because of pride and sense of duty, not merely because they are paid so well (ha!). Certainly pride in one's unit, one's ship, affects one's morale. The military has known this for eons. The Marines don't sell themselves based on the fact that they have good food, or nice beds. They are the Marines: "The Few." You can bet that when the Coldstream Guards march, they are damn proud of the fact that they are the oldest regiment in Britain. They have a long illustrious history and a reputation to uphold and they are motivated to do so. It's the military men who put their lives on the line, NOT the politicians. Sure Carl Vinson did some great things for the Navy, but he didn't stand on the deck of ship during the Night Battle of Guadalcanal, while Japanese warships poured every immaginable caliber of shell into his ship. He didn't stand at a 40mm mount on a CV off Japan while a Kamikaze bored straight at him bent on sending him to a fiery death. Just maybe those folks might not like to be remembered in history as having been killed in action aboard the USS Jack-in-the Box, or some other corporate moniker. Instead of politicians, we could do what ballparks are doing: sell the rights to the highest bidder. How about the USS Ronald McDonald? A supply ship could be named USS PetsMart.com. Maybe we could sell the rights to the Statue of Liberty: She could be called the Hooter's Girl. That would swell national pride. Would a graduate of Harvard speak with the same glow if they renamed the school ConEdison University? Names and other intangibles DO make a difference to the people who serve. And when you are asking folks to risk their lives for paltry financial rewards, every little intangible helps. Unit cohesion is all about building a sense of pride-of being something special. Uniforms, which are perhaps just clothing to some people are part of that. And so are names, battle histories etc. Paul Jacobs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Norman C. Samish" Subject: Oil Prices Maybe we should get used to ever-higher prices for fuel. There's a long (2 Mb) and authoritative article at http://dieoff.com/page140.pdf from a 1998 issue of Scientific American. This says that world oil production will peak around 2010 and will be half it's current rate in 2035. What does this have to do with ships? The ships of the future will be atomic powered even more than they are today. And we'll be riding about on bicycles and getting energy from windmills, solar cells and biomass. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: Buff Color Actually all the current naval powers of that time used their own version of "Buff", so the "Africa Mustard Yellow" will probably look just great. So if your name is Rhino Bones, you must have had almost as hard a time in high school as I did with my name. Steve Wiper Classic Warships -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Buff Color You didn't say what ships you're modeling. "Buff," while used by many navies, will have varied from navy to navy. The only one we have matched at present is the Royal Navy buff, and that is quite yellow. In fact, RN vets described it as primrose rather than buff. We may one day get to some of those earlier paint colors, but for now we have the WW2 Regia Marina, Kriegsmarine, Royal Navy 3, US Navy 3...and then those tantalizing leads for WW1 colors.... John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys http://www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: Classic Warships Books >> PS: I've just got Steve's Classic Warship books via WEM, and am looking forward to the IJN BBs......** How about some UK topics **, or did we hide all our ship piccies during the war? << I am contemplating a few British topics, but have to charge a higher price for the books, as I will have to pay 4 to 8 time more for the photos, and the prices on the drawings are astronomical. I am trying to figure out how to work all this into the price of the books, so you will be looking at a minimum of 16 pounds per book. Then I have to fly over to the UK to do research at the IWM, and so on! If everybody bought my books then I will be able to do all these neat projects, and I would make the books better and better, so come on guys, check them out, you will not be disappointed! Steve Wiper Classic Warships -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Foeth" Subject: Scale Speed If you want to scale speed with teh square root, you get the (more or less!) correct wave pattern. Waves for ships scale with square roots, but other factors don't. Scale models for testing in ships testing basins always scale at the square root (Froude scaling) but friction resistance is then incorrectly scaled. This makes correct scaling an art, and is phisically *impossible* to do completely right. So, for models, scale 1:1. It's not science, it' a hobby! Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: URUDOFSKY@aol.com Subject: Re: Ships Names Don't get totally bent out of shape about a name for a ship. But I agree that Vinson (even if I thought the ship was named after a Supreme Court Justice), is an odd ball name and so is Senator Stennis or some US presidents dead or alive. The names of ships are in my view a sacred national tradition that should belong to the USN and USGC. It means a lot to those who serve on them. It has become a commercial enterprise and political football as this site testifies to. ld USN Navy USS Carl VINSON CVN70 Stein NR Item #276691967 on eBay -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Robert Weilacher Subject: Bismarck Colors Can anyone direct me to some available paints that match the Bismarck's colors? I plan to do it as it appeared just prior to its trip to Norway and its final voyage. I know I will need at least one gray and a teak deck color (and black and white). I usually do USN WWII ships and don't really want to spend a lot of time and cash researching this one to be super-accurate. Thanks, Rob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Melea/Mike Maynard" Subject: Big Gray Ships There seems to be a lot of interest(judging from some of the recent posts) concerning visiting naval exhibits in the San Diego area and of the impending resin Forrestal kit(oh boy like we haven't seen that kit offered anywhere before). For you Gray hull builders info, I live about 30 minutes away from where the Forrestal and Saratoga are berthed. And the Iowa class BB moored next to them is dwafted by their size. Visitors are allowed to drive up along the waters edge to view these ships(the bows of the carriers are about 100 or so feet away from shore) but a chain link fence is in place to keep any would be enthusiasts from getting on to the pier. Still, any time of day you'll see 4 or 5 cars parked opposite the ships, they do draw considerable attention. Last week an old shipmate invited me for a cruise aboard his CG buoy tender "IDA LEWIS" for a trip up Narragansett Bay. The "IDA" is berthed across from the Sara and, at 175' in length, is miniscule in comparison. Still, I got an up close port view of the carrier and noticed a considerable list to it. I wonder what spaces could be flooding to cause such a list. In nearby Fall River I visited the BB "MASSACHUSETTS" on the way home from my "cruise". Besides the BB, this display boasts a Gearing class destroyer, a WWII class sub, a PT boat museum and a former Eastern block missile PB. If I head 60 minutes south I can visit the "NAUTILUS" museum in Groton or travel 45 minutes north to Boston and visit the "CONSTITUTION" and it's Fletcher class cousin across the pier. Yep, I sure wish I built examples of those big gray ships for a hobby, there's a wealth of research material in my own back yard. Kinda makes you out of state Navy builders drool, don't it? I hope after the 1/350 Forestal is marketed, that Coast Guard cutter model will be produced, that's the type of kit that get's me to drooling! If the price of gas doesn't make everyone sell their car and buy a skate board by summer, take a drive up to New England, there really is a lot of Navy stuff to photograph, I think it would be worth a "Road Trip". Regards Mike M (USCG Ret.) A collision at sea can ruin your whole day... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: GrafSpee34@aol.com Subject: Model Ships & Art Rant Oh yeah, one thing I left out from my rant yesterday, the current exclusionary trend towards "what is art" also denies National Endowment for the Arts money and other arts scholarships to model builders. While a young person who scratch builds clipper ships from wood would most likely get his application tossed out by a review committee, an "artist" who's preferred medium is his own bodily excretions would recieve serious consideration. That is simply not justifyable. I'm done ranting now. Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Christopher Crofoot Subject: Re: Ship names and vets To the chap that couldn't understand why name a Carrier after Reagan... his 600 ship Navy mightn't have been needed in the Gulf but it and SDI WERE needed to break the Soviets economically. The statues of Lenin might have hit the ground on Bush's watch but they were shoved over on Reagans. I think Lex and Sara really belong back on our rolls... they carry on a tradition and that IS important. To the fellow that thinks vets are arrogant because many of them feel they know better than elected officials. Well... actually, in all humility, we usually do know better than the politicians!--after all it's usually the military that bear the burden of diplomatic bungling! What you call arrogance will be called by a veteran of any service anywhere in the world as esprit de corps. As important as bullets and beans in any conflict is pride. And that pride is in many ways manifested through tradition. Carrying on time honored names is important..perhaps not in a hard countable way.. but one of the lessons of Vietnam was that numbers don't always tell the whole story. Don't take this as a missive against civilian controlled military... I think history shows there is no better way... but should the military have control over naming policy without civilian politics? YES! There will never be a USS Willy Clinton...because no one in the military respects him...they respect his position as NCA and the CinC but not as a leader. I can remember when his victory was announced from the poop deck at USMA. The Cadets ACTUALLY BOOED!!! and he hasn't exactly moved up in esteem since then either! lol Besides could you imagine having to paint out the stains on the hull???!!! it would never end! Chris -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "MJW" Subject: 5 Minute Epoxy as Insulator Can you use 5 minute epoxy as an electrical insulator in R/C boats? Does it conduct electricity? Will it go soft in the water and then start shorting the circuits? Thanks! Malcolm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "MJW" Subject: Women and Children first?? Slightly off topic - is "women and children first" maritime law? My question at the end of this story is whether the Captain was prosecuted or not. The tradition of "women and children first" apparently goes back to South Africa, the Birkenhead, and 1852. http://www.gans.co.za/gansbaai/birkhead/birkhead.htm has a story on that. This tradition was broken in August 1991, again in South Africa, where the captain of the Oceanos and his crew were first off the ship, leaving the women and children behind. The quote I found was "Although all passengers and crew were rescued, passenger accounts pointed to possible serious breakdowns in safety procedures. Passengers reported that the ship's officers and crew offered little assistance and actually abandoned ship before the passengers." Here's a web link: http://webandwire.com/passengershipsafetyhistory.htm . As a side note, have a look at http://www.fieldingtravel.com/cf/choosing/sanitatn.htm for background on the kind of crew they may have been.... Did the captain break any law - did he break international or South African or Greek law? Is the ship owner in Greece ultimately responsible? (Again as a side note - there was apparently incredible bravery from the SA Navy Seals and helicopter pilots) regards Malcolm in Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: "John Sutherland" Subject: Re: Cancelled British Naval exercise Douglas from Scotland wrote: >> Recently there were stories of UK Naval exercises being cancelled due to lack of fuel, am I right in this? - not bad for a country with its own oil.... << Can't comment on that but we in New Zealand recently cancelled the annual Fincastle Trophy competion for submarine hunting because the Australian Navy couldn't find a serviceable submarine ..... (despite having 6(?) new ones to play with...) Is this exercise cancelling catching??? John in Wellington ducking for cover from the expected Australian incoming ... (Who recently received some after thanking another Australian for helping Team New Zealand by loaning the Prada syndicate copies of the Collins class hull profile for use on their under-water appendage....) Hi John, Well, what can I say - we only wanted to give you bods over there a chance to win it, by not sending anything ;-þ. Shane - btw is that the best you can do ;->> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Re: CSS ALABAMA >> I understand it is very accurate except for the info that was discovered in the photos; 2 Phalanx CIWS port and starboard aft, just to either side of the helopad. << John, Ole Buddy, you been painting with those oil based paints and not ventilating the room again?? Either that or you are painting with acrylics and using Foster`s for brush (and tongue) cleaner. Chuck The UNMENTIONABLE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: "Kelvin Mok" Subject: Naming Ships >> If anyone deserves credit it's Bush for creating and maintaining the international coalition that prosecuted the war. That was a great accomplishment. Absent that, it wouldn't have mattered how many carrier battle groups we could place in the Persian Gulf. Having said that, the practice of naming carriers after politicians is regrettable. Some of these names (VINSON, STENNIS) have no meaning whatsover to Americans, and others are divisive. I look forward to ships with great names like LEXINGTON and SARATOGA again. << I was hoping for someone to make a post first that I can build on. I am as flame shy as anyone. A nation's armed forces be it navy, army or air force exists to serve the interests of that country. The nation must never be the vehicle to glorify the armed forces, least of all a particular branch of service. Wasn't this how so many 19th and 20th century militaristic governments arose in Europe and elsewhere that caused so much grief in the ensuing history. I believe the US public has got it right when it usually reluctant to raise former military officers (Douglas McArthur, and perhaps quite a few others?) to the highest office of the land bar Washington and Eisenhower. But then in hindsight these two were far sighted politicians first who happen also to be good generals. America's experience with Grant was troubled. It is also to America's good fortune that many of her best generals know their limitations to have refused to seek or be drafted to seek the Presidency. George Marshall comes to mind. I have nothing to say about naming ships after Presidents. But in quite a few other post the argument it that only service heroes should have capital ships named after them. This is risky self glorification that the public good be subdued to the services perception of its own self importance in the nation's affairs. I believe the American public knows better. Kelvin Mok -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29) From: "Simon Wolff" Subject: Jungle Navy Hi you all.. For those in Australia who get National Geographic channel. Tomorrow Tuesday 14th March 1 PM is a programme on National Geographic called 'Jungle Navy'. It is the story of the RN operation on Lake Tanganyika during WWI fighting the German Navy. Wonderful story of a small band of men led by a character from the mould of Drake and Nelson.. good sterling stuff! Actually darn well worth seeing. Simon Wolff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 30) From: "Simon Wolff" Subject: Ship Naming.. (yes more!) Hi you all.... I would dearly like to put forward the name of a truly great patriot for the naming of CVN 77 how about that great true hero...Benedict Arnold? Okay I must of course point out that the intent was to bring a little brevity to a rather long WINDED discussion..... HO HO HO chuckle chuckle.... har dee ha haaar Well hell how about a thread on the most amusing ship names? real or suggested?????? or has this been done before??? Simon Wolff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 31) From: Ismail Hassenpflug Subject: IJN Equipment Set III (E-3) cont. Here the remaining entries on the reverse of the instructions... Entry 8: 40cal 89 design 12.7cm single high angle gun This gun is the high angle gun approved in Showa 8 (1933) with a spray shield added, electrical power for swivelling and elevation, and other modifications, which was mounted in No.1 position on the War Emergency detroyers of the Matsu class. Entry 9: 50cal year 3 design 14cm twin gun 14cm guns primarily formed the secondary armament of battleships Ise, Hyuga, Nagato, Mutsu, etc, but as twin mountings they were mounted on the light cruiser Yubari, training cruisers Kashima and Katori, submarine depot ships Chogei and Jingei, seaplane tender Nisshin, etc. Entry 10: Rocket projectile launchers A 28-round anti-aircraft rocket launcher that entered service at the end of the Pacific War, deployment began after the A-go operation (Marianas Sea Battle) primarily on aircraft carriers for their anti-air defence. Ships on which these launchers were delpoyed were: Junyo, Zuikaku, Unryu, Katsuragi, Amagi, Ryuho, Chitose, Chiyoda, Zuiho, as well as battleships Ise and Hyuga. (Locations on Zuiho are unknown. Also, Shinano was sunk before they were mounted). (My Note: I think these last 2 comments may be outdated, though I have no concrete evidence to the contrary. Who knows what assumptions the recent models of the 2 above ships include?) Entry 11: 93 design torpedo (61cm) Using oxygen as a propulsion source, this high performance torpedo (for surface use) had a very long range and left no visible trail. Widely used on cruisers and destroyers, it showed excellent performance. However, there were vessels unable to carry it. (Minetsuki class, Fubuki class, and Hatsuharu class destroyers; heavy cruiser Chokai; light cruisers Sendai, Nagara and Isuzu among others). As examples of use on a model: depict while stacking (being slung by crane), while moving onto the rails, at time of launch from the torpedo tubes, etc. SECOND HALF OF PAGE FROM TOP TO BOTTOM: Entry 1: 91 design torpedo (450mm) Most general-use aerial torpedo. Mainly used by carrier-based attack planes. Apart from attaching to attack planes, scenes of work on the decks of carriers etc can also be depicted. Entry 2: triple 25mm bulwarks (2 types) Mainly used for increasing the machine gun complement and seen in large numbers. Round type used on ships with increased armament added up until about the middle of the Pacific War. Square type seen on ships modified after that time. Entry 3: 800kg bomb For use on carrier-based attack aircraft. Please use together with design 91 torpedo. Entry 4: 14m special type cargo lighter Also known as 'daihatsu', used by first class transports, Ise class battleships, etc. Entry 5: 13m special type cargo lighter Also known as 'chuhatsu', used by second class transports, battleships, aircraft carriers, etc. Entry 6: 11m motor boat For use on battleships, heavy cruisers, light cruisers, seaplane tenders. Used for ferry and patrol duties. Entry 7: 11m motor launch Mainly for use on heavy cruisers. Used for ferrying military personnel, etc. Entry 8: 9m cutter Mainly for use on battleships, aircraft carriers, heavy cruisers. Capable of carrying 45 men, used for rescue duties, transport of men and materials. Entry 9: Radial type boat davits (2 types) A most general item, large type for large ships, small type for smaller vessels. (Amazing!) Entry 10: collapsible radio masts (2 types) Antenna masts for aircrraft carriers. While cruising, masts were erect, in battle (launching and recovering planes) lowered in horizontal position. Use types according to large or medium type ships. Entry 11: 95 design machine gun control position (shielded) Command position approved in Showa 11 (1936), from one position 2 to 3 25mm twin and triple mountings could be controlled. Mounted on newlyapproved aircraft carriers, battleships Yamato and Musashi, and modernized heavy cruisers. Entry 12: 94 design number 2 reconnaissance floatplane (E7K2 'Alf' I think) Approved for shipboard use in Showa 13 (1938), apart from cruisers, seaplane tenders and other warships, it was also delpoyed and served with land-based kokutais (flying corps). As a ship-board aircraft, it is considered reasonable to use with ships up until the autumn of Showa 17 (1942) or thereabouts. Entry 13: 95 type number 2 reconnaissance floatplane (E8N2 'Dave' I think) Approved for shipboard use in Showa 13 (1938), used on battleships, cruisers, seaplane tenders, etc., but from Showa 17 (1942) gradually replaced by Zero design observation floatplane. Entry 14: Zero design observation floatplane (F1M 'Pete" I think) Deployed first from around Showa 16 (1941) and carried on battleships, seaplane tenders and a portion of cruisers, plus deployed with land based flying coprs, serving until the end of hostilities. Entry 15: single-float aircraft catapult trolley Trolley running along the top of the catapult, attached to the aircraft's main float. Use when placing a floatplane onto a catapult or onto a transport trolley. Entry 16: twin-float aircraft catapult trolley Different from the single-float aircraft trolley, this one is attached to the aircraft fuselage. Entry 17: aircraft transport trolley A trolley used for transporting floatplanes, the aircraft with its catapult trolley attached as placed on the transport trolley, and slid along the rails in the deck. Also use when disembarking aircraft. Entry 18: spare float Almost all of the float-plane carrying ships carried heaps of spare floats. Entry 19: 110cm searchlight Carried by light cruisers and larger ships. Entry 20: 60cm searchlight (signal lamp) Used on cruisers and larger ships, often seen in bridge wings for use as signal lamps. Entry 21: Anchor, anchor chain Anchors are for small vessels. Chain is provided in two types for large and medium sized vessels. Entry 22: Crysanthemum crest A smaller type than that provided with the E-2 kit. For use on medium and small vessels, such as light cruisers, patrol vessels (up to 1942), gun boats (up to 1944) etc. Okay, that's the end of Set III (E-3). Next will be set IV (E-7) Ismail Hassenpflug, MSc.Eng PhD 1st year: Ionospheric Physics Kyoto University, Radio Atmospheric Science Center Hi Ismail, I just want to send you a special thank you for all this translation work you've done. I'm sure everyone here appreciates it. Regards, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 32) From: Shane Subject: TSS (?) Berrima Hi gang, A friend of mine is after pictures of the Berrima. This was apparently a passenger ship, which saw service during WW2 (maybe under another name?) & then did the UK to Australia run after the war. It left Tilbury Dock on 26 Dec, 1923 (not sure if this was after fitting out or not). Sorry, there's not much to go on, but I told him it was worth a shot to post it here ;-) Regards, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume