Subject: SMML VOL 852 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 01:33:15 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: HMS Artful 2: Airfix LCM Mk III kit 3: Re: Duane's "Best Ship Name" 4: Re: Naming carriers 5: USS Franklin (CV-13) 6: USS Nimitz References 7: Re: USN Carrier names 8: Re: Mare Island USS DRUM 9: Re: Carrier names 10: Re: USS Mohawk 11: Re: Franklin 12: Re: C.S.S. Alabama 13: tomsmodelworks@worldnet.att.net 14: Altmark 15: Re: Cleveland decomissionings 16: Re: Naming Ships 17: Re: USS Houston (CL-81), ShipCamouflage 18: Battleship Row Fit 19: BB-58 & BB59 20: Ships in the movies 21: 1/700 scale wire & 1/700 scale chain 22: Re: USS Houston (CL-81) 23: 1/700 LPH 24: IJN carrier instructions 25: Re: HMS Artful 26: Re: Naming Carriers 27: Ship names & Yamato's decks 28: Mohawk 29: Re: Cleveland Class CLs 30: Re: Naming Carriers 31: NASTY class PTF website 32: Pre-Dreadnaughts 33: To be or not to be rude. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: WR PRESS FLOWER CLASS CORVETTES by JOHN LAMBERT -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Arthur" Subject: Re: HMS Artful >> Actually, I think HMS Ambush isn't a bad name. But HMS Artful? Please tell me this was a joke I was too tired to get! IMHO, the best name given to a warship was HMS Broadsword, followed by Battleaxe, Warspite and Valiant. And no, I am not British! Relatedly, worst name I've seen yet is HMS Excellent. Why don't you just get a little more pretentious and call it HMS Splendid? (hmm, that one's taken too isn't it) Not that I'm too impressed with USS Jimmy Carter. << HMS Artful - Dodger, like all this class. HMS Excellent alias Whale Island being the RN Gunnery shore establishment was very apt for a name. Everything you did had to be 'Excellent' or you could forget about any promotion. Actually I think the best the Brits ever came up with was HMS Impregnable for the WREN Barracks! Failed many a time. Arthur -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Matthew Prager" Subject: Airfix LCM Mk III kit I don't know if this has been brought up in previous letters, but wanted to share this with anyone thinking about building the Airfix LCM/Sherman Tank kit. I was looking at this kit as the basis for a 1/72 Vietnam era River Minesweeper (MSM) when I realised there was something wrong with the kit. It's dimensions didn't match any of my references for a Mk III and I couldn't figure out why. Then I remembered the fact that the Mk III couldn't carry a Sherman tank, that's why the Mk 6 was developed. Then it all fit, the Airfix kit is actually a LCM Mk 6 in 1/87 scale. Hope this info helps. Matt Prager Hi Matt, I was under the impression that the Airfix HO armour range was 1/76?? Regards, Shane - who doesn't have this kit - yet ;-) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Edward F Grune" Subject: Re: Duane's "Best Ship Name" Ok Duane, I rose to the bait and you've reeled me in. See the answer at: http://laesser.11net.com/cutters/whec/327.html From the history on the page, she was the flagship of the 8th Amphib Force during the Invasion of Southern France (Operation DRAGOON). Interesting connection here. The USS Oberon (AKA-14) was part of the 8th Div during DRAGOON - and the her small boats were crewed by Coasties. Would the Revell Taney be the starting place for this ship? What period does this model represent? Ed Mansfield, TX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: drwells@hogpb.mt.att.com (David R Wells) Subject: Re: Naming carriers Edd Pflum wrote: >> What do you mean by "traditional name"? The Lexington was named while the ship was still intended as a battle cruiser, there has never been a USS United States in commission (I hope I'm right here...anyway no carrier), and the other names you cite were only used once, except Ranger. << No carrier, but there was a famous frigate, which served in the USN from 1797 until 1849. The DANFS entry for her is at: http://www.uss-salem.org/danfs/frigates/uniteds.htm >> The only tradition I am aware of, is that of naming carriers after famous battles, no doubt inspired by the Lex and Sara (see above) but only honored by the Yorktown, until the Essexes. But even then there was the Bon Homme Richard, Intrepid, Franklin, Hancock, Randolph and Cabot -- and that's just among the first 11! << The old rule was famous battles or famous ships. Returning to this rule would be far less political than the current policy of naming ships after politicians. Unfortunately, as Admiral Rickover famously observed, fish don't vote. David R. Wells "There seems to be something wrong | David R. Wells with our bloody ships today" | AT&T Middletown, NJ Adm. D. Beatty, May 31, 1916 | Email: drwells@hogpa.mt.att.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: USS Franklin (CV-13) I always thought that CV-13 was named after a Revolutionary War battle, but the DANFS entry says that "The first four ships of the name honor Benjamin Franklin; CV-13 perpetuates the names of these ships." But there are other Essex class ships that commemorate Civil War battles (Antietam comes to mind), and a screw frigate named Franklin was commissioned in 1867 (decommissioned 1915), so even if the carrier was named after previous ships, it is at least a little fuzzy what the latter ships were named after (I don't have a DANFS entry on this ship). I mean, in 1867, it wouldn't be unlikely that as bloody as the battle had been, there would be a ship named after it, not the long-dead statesman. Franklin (CV-13) was likely (in my opinion) a double-naming. Former ships (including a screw frigate that spent almost forty years as a receiving ship at Norfolk (guess where the carrier was built - across the bay at Newport News) and a battle. For more on the Civil War Battle of Franklin. See: http://edge.edge.net/~mayhew/franklin/franklin.htm http://www.franklin-stfb.org/ Interesting topic. Can anyone confirm what the prior USS Franklin thought it was named after (via DANFS, etc.?) Michael Smith Marshall, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Colin Ritchie Subject: USS Nimitz References Just a quick plea for help. As an aircraft modeller mostly, I've got an order in for the new Aeromaster Special, featuring aircraft for the Nimitz airwing, during the 1977-78 cruise, (all high viz markings with 4 F-14 options 4 A-7 options, An A-6E, KA-6, EA-6B 2 S-3's and 2 H-3's, all in 1/48th). So the question is this how big is Nimitz in 1/48th , NO Only Joking... Actually what I was wondering is, can anybody point me in the direction of decent references of the Nimitz in this period, (other than watching the movie "The final Countdown" again). Colin Ritchie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Shirley Sachsen Subject: Re: USN Carrier names What do you mean by "traditional name"? The Lexington was named while the ship was still intended as a battle cruiser, there has never been a USS United States in commission (I hope I'm right here...anyway no carrier), yes there was. The US was one of the 6 original frigates along w/Congress, Constitution, etc... BTW, the US was also the fictitious ship "Neversink" in Melville's 'White Jacket.' s -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: NAVYDAZE@aol.com Subject: Re: Mare Island USS DRUM I meant the new one - Correct the old one is in Alabama - the new USS DRUM may not even be correct but they are talking about a nukie and they keep switching names - they tried to get the VALLEJO but it did not work out and they got the sail instead. Mike Navydaze -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Roland Mar Subject: Re: Carrier names To: Edd Pflum I think the nomenclature of CV's was, when we had something approximating a naming system, based on both battles and famous ships; q.v. Hornet, Wasp, and Enterprise. To prove that the naming system has always had foibles; the class of battlecruisers that was the source of the Lexington included sister ships Constitution, Constellation, and Ranger [the latter 3 being scrapped or cancelled]. Just in passing, I thought I'd note that there was a USS United States. She was a frigate commissioned in 1797. Very active in the Quasi War with France, she was most famous for her single ship action against HMS Macedonian in the War of 1812. Along with the Constitution, Constellation, and President, the United States punctured the then-current myth of the English being able to beat any opponent in single ship combat. This caused a passing fair amount of heartburn in the halls of the Admiralty, and caused shipping insurance rates to skyrocket. The rising discomfort of the Brit merchant classes was one of the reasons they were eventually willing to make peace. After a career that included much duty on foreign stations, she was laid up at Norfolk in 1849. In April 1861 she was captured by the Confederates and made into a receiving ship as CSS United States. When the Confederates left Norfolk [May 1862] she was sunk to prevent recapture. I think United States would be a most proper name for any naval vessel, but especially a CVN! Hope this is of some help. Roland Mar -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Roland Mar Subject: Re: USS Mohawk TO: Michael Eisenstadt Assuming that this is the same ship, the Mohawk is an ATF [Fleet Tug]. Being one of the more modern post WW II type auxiliaries she does look kind of like a Coast Guard vessel. On October 16, 1980 she was transferred from the fleet to Military Sealift Command [designator changed from ATF-170 to T-ATF 170]. I cannot find out, in this short period of time, exactly where she is now. However the MSC only has 5 fleet tugs, and they say 4 of them are on active duty supporting fleet operations with the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 7th Fleets. She is listed as being under Atlantic Area of Operations with MSC. Since the ATF's are also used as diving and salvage vessels, I suspect that she has been involved in picking up pieces of crashed aircraft off the Atlantic coast for the last year or so for 2nd Fleet. If you need her FPO, I can dig that out for you. Hope this helps Roland Mar -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: Franklin Hi Guys I have DANFS and according to it all four ships are named after Benjamin Franklin also the W.W.II carrier CV-13 with that name honors the previous four ships. Don't forget that there was also a nuclear sub in the 1960s of the Ethan Allen or Lafayette classes that carried this name. Craig Bennett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Tom Detweiler Subject: Re: C.S.S. Alabama >> It's good to hear that Revell is Re-releasing their Confederate Curser. Although I already have the kit, a second can defiantly be converted into the U. S. S. Kearsarge! One major difference is I think the Alabama's mast's were a bit taller than the Kearsarge. And it would interesting to see how one would model the "chain-mail" that was hung over the sides that gave the Kearsarge the advantage over the Alabama in that epic battle of Cherbourg. I'll start my Alabama someday, but first I got to get Revell's U. S. S. Constitution finessed and out of the way first! << I was interested in the "Chain mail" hung over the sides-I had not heard of this, although it makes sense-was this the first type of "Reactive Armor"? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: tomsmodelworks@worldnet.att.net This is to advise that I just had an unusually pleasant experience buying a special model from Tom. I wanted a 1/192 scale SSBM, but I wanted it waterline instead of the standard model offered [full hull] by Tom. He had me draw a diagram of where I wanted the waterline. He then cast the resin model exactly as I wanted. He adjusted the price downward to compensate for the resin material saved. All this was done in approximately ten days. This excellent kit arrived securely wrapped in excellent shape. I do a great deal of e-mail business. Some suppliers are so disorganized that I have had to send them "second" and even "third" requests in an attempt to buy their products. Tom was the happy exception. He was fast, efficient, pleasant, and exceptionally fair in his pricing. My only suggestion is that Tom offer more kits in 1/192, especially WW II models. Tom is, in my opinion, a credit to the industry. JK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Sean D. Hert" Subject: Altmark Awhile back someone contacted me off the list about plans for the Altmark. I now have some, not so good, but workable plans in 1/144 scale. Please email me again. Sean D. Hert Webmeister, Midewest Battle Group Site: http://www.netwalk.com/~popev/bg/ Ringmaster, Big Gun R/C Warship Combat Ring -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Joe Costanzo" Subject: Re: Cleveland decomissionings There are a couple of reasons reasons the light cruisers were decomissioned first. Post-war the cruiser's situation changed dramatically. Surface actions were not a high priority, the scene being dominated by carriers which in turn shaped the development of the Navy ever since. The primary roles of the gun cruisers were shore bombardment and flagship duties. In the former, the Baltimore's 8-inch guns were superior to the Cleveland's 6-inch. For the latter, the Baltimores were larger and had a more generous weight margain, which made them much better suited to flag duties. Since the US was cutting back on it's massive wartime fleet, only the best ships stayed. The Clevelands were smaller, less stable, more difficult to upgrade and probably not much cheaper to maintain. Their only benefit was their large numbers, which is why they were chosen folling the Boston/Canaberra experiments for conversion to missile cruisers, there being insufficient free CA hulls to convert in the numbers the Navy wanted Joe Costanzo. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: Naming Ships Hi Ed Thanks for the reply. Basically a traditional name to me is a name given to a ship before usually as you said famous battles or previous ships. The ones I mentioned aren't in current use and I put my 2 cents because somebody would notice a name in use and tell me about it." No good old days", all in the eye of the beholder. Craig -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "John Sheridan" Subject: Re: USS Houston (CL-81), ShipCamouflage >> Likewise I'm also interested in the camo scheme for the USS San Jacinto. I'm not sure of the Ms for this one. << USS San Jacinto was painted MS 33/7a in 1944. >> I've been trying in vein to connect to the ShipCamouflage site but since the site first went up, none of the browsers I use can seem to make a connection. Maybe the server's just too busy, but nothing I've tried to date has worked. I did once shortly after it went up, but since then...nada! << You are the first one to complain about this. Are you sure you are not just being impatient ? Has anyone else on SMML had the same problem contacting our site? http://www.shipcamouflage.com John R. Sheridan What I do to Spammers: http://microscale.com/images/N2.jpg I am not a Member of the Lumber Cartel (tinlc) and I am not Unit #631 Last last place on earth I would look for the Lumber Cartel(tm) is http://come.to/the.lumber.cartel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Battleship Row Fit I have been informed by N F that the reason there was a ban on the taking of photos of the American battleships begining in the late nineteen thirties was to keep secret the fitting of High Frequency direction finding equipment. NF does NOT know what the aerials for these equipments looks like and neither do I, except that they do not appear in the form of a single or crossed loop, nor in the form of the wartime DAQ antenna. This I believe leaves some arrangement that looks like a supported or slung, wire frame set up. If anybody has any information as to definative visual identification then I would be interested. The reason for the fitting of the equipment was to intercept and decrypt Jappo traffic, which the Americans were doing with some success. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "John Sheridan" Subject: BB-58 & BB59 FYI The Naval Historical Center has some excellent photos of BB-58 USS Indiana and BB-59 USS Massachusetts on their website: http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/whatsnew.htm for BB-58 http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-m/bb59.htm for BB-59 Enjoy! John R. Sheridan If I'm talking Decals, then I'm talking for Microscale, Otherwise I am speaking for myself. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "kenny_II" Subject: Ships in the movies In an obvious attempt to start a new thread, I've been considering buying a some of the older war movies now out on DVD. It got me to thinking, I'll bet a lot of SMMLies know what ships were used in what movies. For example, in Tora Tora Tora, the 14 on the deck of the Ticonderoga is clearly visible. What other movies might provide glimpes of our favorite modeling subject? Tim Hi Tim, Great idea, especially since APMA is having a movie & TV theme display day later on in the year, this will come in handy ;-)). BTW, does anyone know what the subs were supposed to be in "The spy who loved me"? Mistress Lorna -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Dennis Krowe" Subject: 1/700 scale wire & 1/700 scale chain Gentlemen: I hope some of you will be able to help me. I am currently assembling detailing materials for the 1/700 scale Hasagawa IJN Aircraft Carrier Kaga kit. After looking at the photoetch radio masts, cranes, and other structures needing rigging it appears that scale rigging (particularly for radio antennae rigging on the com masts)should be no thicker than a human hair. Does anyone know where I can get wire the thickness of a human hair - I have no idea what guage or even diameter such wire should be? Also, I need scale chain for the Kaga - does anyone have a source for chain this fine? Any assistance will be greatly appreciated. Regards, D.L.Krowe -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Marc Flake Subject: Re: USS Houston (CL-81) Derek: Ms 32/1d -- the Skywave instruction sheet provides both port and starboard schematics for this measure, used on the Miami and the Houston. As far as the positioning of the range finders, according to Friedman, the Navy found that the Mark 37 5-inch directors interfered with the Mark 34 8-inch directors and so put them above and behind the main battery diectors in the Miamis. I don't remember reading about why the CLs weren't kept. Marc -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "William Oreto" Subject: 1/700 LPH P and I used to put out a 1/700 LPH. The mold was purchased or leased to Waveline. It depicted and LPH of the 1980s. Its not an easy kit to build but an experienced modeler with sharp skills should have no problems. It is available through Pacific Front. Jim Shirley manufactured a decent kit. It depicting an LPH of the 60s era. It had a hanger deck and some nice accessories. Some of the metal parts were ehhh and if I am not mistaken the flight deck was 1/8 of an inch too short. I hope to combine my P and I kit with my Jim Shirley kit to get an late 80s version for my skills are not that sharp to do the P and I kit. I heard rumor that JAG is supposedly considering manufacturing one for future release when I do not know, era unknown.(hopefully in 1/700) E-mail Joe D'Amato at JAG. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "JOHN DUSSAULT" Subject: IJN carrier instructions about 20 years ago I must have bought about 25 1/700 scale ijn aircraft carrier, and warship model kits. when i took out the plans they were all in japanese! I feel I could probably assemble the kits without too much problem, but when it comes to the painting schemes i hit a brick wall. A few years ago I purchased a booklet from Tamiyaka, but it too was all in japanese with no english references.Would you know of anyone I could maybe send zerox copies of these plans to and who could translate the colors for me and send them back?? thanks john dussault -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: Shane Weier Subject: Re: HMS Artful Joe C comments: >>Actually, I think HMS Ambush isn't a bad name. But HMS Artful? Please tell me this was a joke I was too tired to get! << I think you just didn't get the meaning of "Artful", a common failing given the modern poor understanding of the subtlety of the English language. Nothing to do with painting/sculpting/poncing about in a tutu. Artful as in "Artful Dodger" - meaning "cunning". Which makes it a pretty good name for a ship IMHO, and highly appropriate for a submarine Shane the Older -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: Paul Jacobs Subject: Re: Naming Carriers Well, it's not true that the only tradition of naming carriers was after famous battles. When the decision was made to select nomenclature for carriers two criteria were selected: famous battles and famous ships. This was pretty well adhered to for all carriers larger than CVE's until the F.D.R. in 1945. The only other ships to violate the rule were SHANGRI-LA, LANGLEY and WRIGHT. As for FRANKLIN, the name had a long history with the navy BEFORE the Civil War, including one of the few ships-of- the-line in the U.S. Navy. Notwithstanding the plaque aboard CV 13, it is unlikely that the ship was named after the Civil War battle, which was not so exceptional that it deserved such distinction. The battle of ANTIETAM on the other hand remains even now, the single bloodiest day in American military history, and has often been looked upon with a reverence different from other battles in that conflict: Less a victory for one side, than a demonstration of the dedication and sacrifice of Americans, north and south who died by the thousands fighting for what they believed in. Paul Jacobs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: "wblad" Subject: Ship names & Yamato's decks The first U.S.S. United States was a 44-gun frigate of 1798. A sister-ship of the Constitution (Old Ironsides), she was sunk as a blockship during the Civil War. The wood on Yamato's decks was cypress. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: "wblad" Subject: Mohawk I don't know where she is now but "Sea Classics" magazine publishes an annual list of historic ships and nautical museums. You might find her listed there. For the record, although she resembled a Flower class corvette, she was much older. U.S.S. Mhawk, (WPG-78), was a member of the Algonquin class built in 1932 - 34. She displaced 1,005 tons, measured 165 x 36 x 13' 6''. She was sold in November, 1948. HTH. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: Cleveland Class CLs It cost just about as much to operate a CL as it did a CA - why spend slightly less to have a 6" cruiser, when, 'for a few dollars more', you can have an 8" cruiser? Eugene -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 30) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: Naming Carriers Famous Battles or Famous Warships. There was either a US Statute or a Sense of the Congress in the 1920s or so that stated the ship naming policy of the USN. Ranger (CV-4) named after a ship of the Revolutionary Navy, Enterprise (CV-6) named after a ship of the Barbary Coast War and War of 1812 are perfect examples. Eugene -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 31) From: "Jeffry J. Fontaine" Subject: NASTY class PTF website Hi Shane; Just a quick note to let you know that there is a new web site to visit for those of us that like our combatants small, fast, and nimble. The NASTY Class PTF home page is up and running here in the great Pacific Northwest, go to http://www.ptfnasty.com/ and check out the images and drawings that are now available on line. It is a very well done site and it turns out that the fellow who maintains it is located only a few miles/kilometers from where I currently live. I was only made aware of this site a couple of days ago by a friend of mine that was a skipper of a NASTY boat, he was enthusiastic about it and after reviewing it myself I know why. I now extend that invitation to the folks that subscribe to SMML to also pay a visit and view some very nice web pages that have a lot of good information contained within. afn, Jeffry Fontaine Bremerton, Washington where the rain continues until morale improves... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 32) From: RhinoBones@aol.com Subject: Pre-Dreadnaughts Kitlink.com offers for sale a number of Japanese and Russian pre-dreadnaughts (1890's thru 1907) by a manufacturer named Modelkrak. This just happens to be exactly the era which catches my interest. The price range is $16 to $30 and I've been told that they are resin and they come without PE. The question is, for anyone familiar with these models (i.e. Modelkrak), can you verify that these are resin kits and also, could you offer some comments on the overall quality of the kits? Considering their low asking price I would not expect the best from their kits, however, you never know when you might be looking at a good deal. The kits in question are list at: http://kitlink.com/ModelkrakResults.asp Regards, RhinoBones PS - Hey Wiper, speaking of strange names, my first name also happens to be "Steve" . . . strange huh? My buddies from upper New York all call me Stevo, easier to say after a few beers. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 33) From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bergsch=F6ld_Pelle?= Subject: To be or not to be rude. Mr White. I will anytime be the first to praise your models and your incredible knowledge in modelling, but in this case, I feel that you are barking up the wrong tree. As for what I have seen, the issue here is rather that some of us feel a certain discomfort when others use this excellent forum for shipmodelling to express very humiliating opinions of others (and in this case, I prefer seeing politicians as humans, first and foremost) than being an issue of a particular discussion taking too much space. I realize, as previously stated, that most SMML:ies are american, and I would guess that most of you rather favors Mr Bush than Mr Gore this November, and that's fine. That's democracy. Namecalling and impoliteness however is not, and THAT is why I turn against the way this naming thread has taken. This is my point of view, and by that I will stand, gentlemen. Whining or not. With respect P Bergschold SWEDEN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: WR PRESS FLOWER CLASS CORVETTES by JOHN LAMBERT Hi Guys, A full review with pictures can now be found at: http://whiteensignmodels.simplenet.com/wrpress/wrflower.htm which includes pictures, some modelling info, and also news on the Revell 1/72 HMCS Snowberry. We have the book priced at 16.95 pounds (around $27.00) We also have the excellent CLASSIC WARSHIPS titles USS San Francisco and Omaha Class Battleships, each priced at 9.95 Pounds. Quite enjoying the ships names thread.. something that's always puzzled me.. we had HMS Victorious and HMS Glorious... so why not an HMS Happy??! Thanks! Caroline Carter White Ensign Models (recovering from a broken modem and then another 24 hours without an ISP into the bargain!) http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models White Ensign Models, for a fine range of photoetched brass for 1/600, 1/700 and 1/350 scale kits, and THE finest warship kits and upgrades in the world! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume