Subject: SMML VOL 854 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 22:24:48 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Ships in movies 2: Ships in the movies 3: Leeds Castle kits? 4: Misc. 5: tora tora tora 6: Re: War of 1812 7: Re: Ships in Movies 8: Re: Korean war ships 9: Decal flags 10: What Pit Road (Skywave) really needs 11: Cold War at Sea 12: Naming Ships 13: Re: USS Illinois 14: SURCOUF - FRENCH SUB 1930's 15: Re: USN FLOWERs/Ships in Movies 16: Re: USN CV Names 17: Naming Ships, Again 18: Admirable Class Minesweeper 19: Re: ships in movies 20: Sad News 21: Skywave sets/ IJN instructions comment 22: Re: Ships in Movies 23: Re: USN Flower class corvettes. 24: Re: Ships in the movies 25: Re: USS KEARSAGE 26: Re: HMS Happy and Royal Navy Carrier Names 27: Battleship Row Fit 28: Re Flags 29: USN Flowers 30: NOAHS ARC 31: Flowers from Britain 32: Ships in movies 33: Tora Tora Tora's big battleships 34: Re: end of war of 1812 35: HO Scale 36: Re: Flower Class Corvettes 37: Flower Class Corvettes 38: Re: Favorite Ship Names 39: Re: Pre-Dreadnoughts 40: Re: Ships in the movies 41: RN Ship nick-names: 42: Re: USS Hancock 43: Re: Flags 44: Tora! Tora! Tora! 45: Ships used during the Korean War 46: Ships in Tora, Tora, Tora 47: USN Flower Class Corvettes -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Fine wire 2: News from Atlantic Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: CokerRE@aol.com Subject: Re: Ships in movies Shipmates was shown on cable a couple of years ago. Lots of great scenes aboard one of the big five battleships. Also run was the one shot aboard the Saratoga still flying bi-planes. These films offer a rare glimpse of the fleet prior to World War II. There is also an old Bud Abbott and Lou Costello comedy from this era. Have not seen it in thirty years. PC Coker/Charleston -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Colin Ritchie Subject: Ships in the movies I remember going to Tora, Tora Tora when it was first released in the UK, and even buying the presentation brochure that film companies used to produce for "big movies", (Still got the original Star Wars one somewhere from 77). This provided some background to the production of the movie. As I recall, the Japanese used a series of large barges which were welded together to form the basis of the hulls of the various IJN ships featured. And as I recall, much the same was done for the US ships. One thing I do remember was that the director of the Japanese sequences had, as a boy in wartime Japan, been drafted into assembling Zero's . Overall, a do recall that a lot of work went into making movie seem as authentic as possible. I must confess that the various Japanese aircraft created for the file have fooled me on occasion! On I mentioned the 23 foot hull of a 48th Nimitz to my wonderful wife, Ever seen a phone melt........ Colin Ritchie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "David C. Maschino" Subject: Leeds Castle kits? Hi, I'm looking for a kit of the British offshore patrol vessel "Castle" class, namely P258 Leeds Castle or her sister P265 Dumbarton Castle. I found some sources for large R/C models, but prefer a smaller scale like 1/350 or thereabouts. Any of you resin guys have something like this? Thanks, David C. Maschino -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: CA139JOHNF@aol.com Subject: Misc. RE: Hollywood thread- "Pursuit of the Graf Spee/Battle of the River Platte" used USS Salem (CA139) in the title role. "In Harm's Way" used USS Saint Paul as 'Ole Swayback'. What ships were used in the following, Corvette K225, The Cruel Sea, Battle Hell/Yangtze River Incident? Tora,Tora,Tora did indeed have full size mockups of a Japanese BB (Nagato/Yamato?), an IJN CV and USS Arizona which also stood infor Nevada. Nevada model used for underway scenes is aboard the USS Intrepid in NYC. A posting on the smml convention will be put up next week with more info. John Frohock USNSM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Keith Bender" Subject: tora tora tora The shots taken aboard the Nagato were done on a set 600', it was the biggest ship set at the time and I think until Titanic. The Nevada was a set too but I don't think they made the full ship, just the aft half. But they did manage to screw that up. Allot of things were wrong with it but the most noticeable were the 14" guns. Nevada and the Okie had two triple and two twin turrets. On the set they made all four turrets triple. Maybe this was done so they could shoot the other ships and make it look believable. That did a very good job making it believable and only people such as our breed would notice these things that are wrong. Say, when was the last time your wife ever sat down with you to watch Midway and Say "how come they show corsairs flying when they weren't even in service yet?" Most of the population doesn't know the difference so this is something we have to ignore and just enjoy it. We would love to have it authentic but that's not possible, or is it! Titanic? KTB -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: John_Impenna@hyperion.com Subject: Re: War of 1812 Hi All, Chris Langtree writes: >> The war of 1812 was pretty stupid anyway (America declared war after the offending orders that lead to war had been rescinded and the major battle was fought after the peace treaty had been signed). << Yeah, but who WON it?????? The only reason the battle was fought approx 2 months after the treaty was because that's how long it took for the news to reach this side of the "pond". The fact still remains, no matter how much you want to attempt to minimize it, the flegling USN WAS BETTER than the RN in single ship to ship combat. With a navy of, IIRC, 1/40th size of the RN's, the US was very fortunate that the entire RN's strength wasn't used against us. As it was, the blockade was very effective, but British Merchants and business interests were screaming just as LOUDLY for an end to it and normal resumption of trade. But, if you want to start another ship to ship comparison as with the Essex vs Illustrious, this time you lose!!!:)) John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: John_Impenna@hyperion.com Subject: Re: Ships in Movies Hi All, Mark Krumrey writes: >> There is one movie, I don't know the name, but features Clark Gable, and Wallace Beary. They are on the Saratoga during the '30's. One of the first movies the Navy allowed Hollywood to film aboard a carrier, and film landing sequences. It is a great flick. << The movie is "Helldivers" from 1932 and it was indeed the first movie the Navy allowed to be filmed on a CV. John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Korean war ships >> Hi Rusty, Are you after USN only or the whole gambit?? Shane << Everyone. Especially if there are plastic or resin kits available for them. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Decal flags I'm finishing up on my 1/350 Fletcher. I have applied Duane Fowler's EXCELLENT decals for the anti skid ways and I have the flag decal left to apply. I MUST use this decal since the resolution is so fine you can clearly see the stars under magnification! I've never used decal flags before. Can they be made to appear as though they are fluttering in the breeze? If so, how can this be done? The decal merely folds in half, but would appear to me to be stiff and unrealistic. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: What Pit Road (Skywave) really needs I can sympathize with the gripes about the illegible Skywave instructions. I'm sure all of us can recall the language mistakes on their boxes (some of them pretty funny to us in the US). What Pit Road should do is open a plant in the US as Tamiya did to produce boxes and instructions in English. Either that, or hire an English speaking editor. That's not knocking the Japanese. I'm sure the same things would occur if we were producing English language kits and instructions over there translating them to Japanese. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: MIKE.LEONARD@customs.treas.gov Subject: Cold War at Sea New book: "Cold War at Sea: An Illustrated History" by Kit and Carolyn Bonner. MBI Publishing Company. 160 pages, over 200 photographs. While primarily a chronicle of the rivalry between the US and Soviet navies from 1946 to 1991, it doesn't neglect the rest of the world, covering technologies and developments among the British, French, Italian, Dutch, Indian and other fleets. Major events of the era are included here - the Korean War, Suez, Cuban Missile Crisis, Vietnam, Falklands, etc. In all a well done overview of naval happenings for the past half-century. Retail price is US$24.95 for this softcover title. Mike Alexandria, VA USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: MIKE.LEONARD@customs.treas.gov Subject: Naming Ships I'm reluctant to add anything to the now-tiresome thread about the naming of US aircraft carriers, but I've read that there is a petition before Congress to name the next CVN after Eugene Ely, who flew the first aircraft from an American warship in 1910. If a ship hadn't been named for this individual before, it would seem to have been a major oversight. In DANFS I found an "Ely" (DE-109) named after a Navy Cross recipient who was killed at Midway, but no warship named after the aviation pioneer. Though a civilian pilot, that obviously wouldn't have precluded a naval ship being named in his honor. Personally, my vote for the next CVN name is "Lexington". Mike Alexandria, VA USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Steven P. Allen" Subject: Re: USS Illinois Derek wrote: >> Given the introduction of the Boomer (and it's importance in our strategic triad) right around the time the last of the Battleships were heading for the mothballs, it would've made sense if the USS George Washington had been named USS Illinois instead (only reason I picked that name is that's where they left off with the Battleships). I mean, if they were going to go that direction, why not do it then. For that matter, why not have named USS Forrestal the USS Illinois. Hey,after all, it was the carrier that surplanted the battleship as the center of the battleforce, and again most of our remaining battleships were in mothballs by that time. Since Cruisers at the time were limited to WWII left overs for the most part (with Frigates being named after naval heroes), that would've been the logical time to switch the city nomenclature over to say the Boomers. << All four completed Iowas were in commission when the Forest Fire was building. The USS Illinois, in the form of her bottom under the machinery spaces, still existed in the early'50s, so the name would not have been available for either. Indeed, Kentucky was not stricken or scrapped till about 1960 (although Wisconsin borrowed her bow some years earlier). The Montanas all had names assigned, too. I have seen the state which was next in line for BB73 (had such a ship ever been conceived), but I do not remember which it was. Frankly, given the criminal lack of NGFS and surface warfare ships in the USN, I'd be very happy to see BB73 on the ways . . . . Steve Allen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: John Wressell Subject: SURCOUF - FRENCH SUB 1930's Just joined the group and this is my first try for information and hope I'm going at it the right way. Building a model of the French sub Surcouf. She was built in the mid 1930's and lost in the Atlantic in 1942. Had two 8 inch guns in a forward turret and carried a small seaplane. Does anyone have any pictures, plans and information on her that they could share. Many thanks, John Wressell Stamford, CT USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: USN FLOWERs/Ships in Movies The USN actually only took ten of the offered FLOWERS: USS TEMPTRESS (PG-62) [ex-VERONICA] USS SURPRISE (PG-63) [ex-HELIOTROPE] USS SPRY (PG-64) [ex-HIBISCUS] USS SAUCY (PG-65) [ex-ARABIS] USS RESTLESS (PG-66) [ex-PERIWINKLE] USS READY (PG-67) [ex-CALENDULA] USS IMPULSE (PG-68) [ex-BEGONIA] USS FURY (PG-69) [ex-LARKSPUR] USS COURAGE (PG-70) [ex-HEARTSEASE] USS TENACITY (PG-71) [ex-CANDYTUFT] Ships in Movies: Derek, the NAGATO in Tora, Tora, Tora was actually a model, built on a forest of pilings near a beach in Japan. There was a website that had photos of it taken from some distance back so that you could see the full model, with one of the "Kate" torpedo bombers flying past. I don't know that it was full scale, but it had to have been close! John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys http://www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Duane_C" Subject: Re: USN CV Names The "person" names used on WWII US Carriers were actually all names of earlier ships. The Hancock (CV-19) and Randolph (CV-15), for example, were both named after Continental Navy 32 gun Frigates of the original 1775 authorization. The Franklin (CV-13) was named after the 74 gun liner of 1815. To the best of my information the FDR (CV-42) was the first of the (modern) major vessels actually named for a person. The naming convention for US carriers was indeed inherited from the Lexington class Battle Cruisers. The Battle Cruiser was a new type for the US, and they selected historic ships and battles as the naming system. When the Washington Naval Treaty stopped capital ship construction and allowed the conversion of two hulls to carriers, the name system followed them to the new catagory. The Langley (CV-1) was always considered an exception, as it was originally considered an auxilliery vessel, sort of an "aircraft tender". It's name was perpetuated in WWII use on CVL-27, as being named after an historic ship, CV-1! Duane C. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: MIKE.LEONARD@customs.treas.gov Subject: Naming Ships, Again I misidentified USS Ely; the correct designation should be DE-309, not DE-109. BTW, I always liked the name of the fictitious little cargo ship from the play/film "Mister Roberts" -- USS Reluctant. Mike Alexandria, VA USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: MIKE.LEONARD@customs.treas.gov Subject: Admirable Class Minesweeper Derek asked - >> Okay...I suspect I already know the answer to this, but just how accurate is this kit. It sorta appears to be an Admirable cl ship, but Minecraft aren't my forte. << Well, the bad news is -- it's a typical Lindberg ship kit! Get some sandpaper, files, and a sharp blade and plan on spending a few hours removing the hideous raised plating on just about every part. On the other hand, it's highly sought after by collectors. It sells for $30+ on eBay from time to time. The other good news is that it's BIG and offer a lot of opportunity to detail. H-R makes metal fittings in 1/125th scale that are close to the right size. There are landlocked minesweepers preserved near St. Louis, MO, and Omaha, NE. Photos of these ships are available from SeaPhoto. As for views of the light cruiser HOUSTON, I recall there were a fair number of photos in the book "The Battle to Save the Houston", but don't recall specifics or even the name of the author. You could try getting it via interlibrary loan. Mike Alexandria, VA USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Kenneth H. Goldman" Subject: Re: ships in movies There is a glaring error in Craig's list of USN ships in movies. When it comes to acting, men have played women, women have played men, but even Hollywood hasn't enough makeup or chutzpah for a troop transport to play a minesweeper! USS Randall actually played USS Belinda in AWAY ALL BOATS. Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER http://www.wman.com/~khgold/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "Kenneth H. Goldman" Subject: Sad News It is with profound sadness that I relate the passing 13 March of Royal Navy historian, author, and great guy David Lyon, felled by a cerebral haemorrhage while vacationing with his wife in the Caribbean. He truly looked the part, where I met him aboard the barque SEA CLOUD, as he related stories of naval actions in the Napoleonic Wars and of his own experiences in the Royal Navy. Our acquaintance was far too brief, and he will be sorely missed. I have already extended my deepest sympathy to his widow. Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER http://www.wman.com/~khgold/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Ismail Hassenpflug Subject: Skywave sets/ IJN instructions comment Dan Kaplan mentioned the modern Skywave sets. Well, in short, I am afraid I don't have them, so I can't translate them! If someone wants to send me a good scan or photocopy, I will do a translation. As for posting to the website mentioned, thanks for letting me know. I will get around to mailing the webmaster a copy of the entire set. The IJN instructions too are not a problem, though the value is perhaps limited. I think that many of the current books available on the IJN give better info. Okay, so I don't mind doing a translation of a few ships. Feel free to send a scan or photocopy if necessary. I don't have a collection here myself, and certainly don't plan to start a 'project' of that magnitude :-) BTW, I saw in Osaka last weekend the 1/700 Mikuma and Mogami (as aircraft cruiser) released by Kazusaminato Navy Yard. At 9000yen each not exactly cheap, but very nice hull, superstructure and turrets. All the rest you have to provide yourself, from detail sets etc. Brass barrels etc are also available here... A 1/500 of the Mogami is ready too, very impressive. It is a pity about the price, but then the alternative is a massive modification of the Tamiya hull to make a Mogami or Mikuma from the Kumano or Suzuya. Another thing: I spent some money on some original Maru Specials last month (from USA), and I conclude that the money is far better spent on the reprints by Kojinsha in Japan. The originals are softcover, and usually cover a class of ships (or two). The asking price is from $35 - $45. The reprints are much much better quality (hardcover), contain much more information (usually 250pp versus 60pp for the originals), and price-wise are a better bargain (3600yen inclusive of 5% tax). I will not argue against the originals' collector value, but for modelling purposes, go for the Kojinsha reprints. Available from Kinokuniya, Maruzen, etc. Two versions, one softcover and B5 size, the other hardcover and B4 size: go for that one! Name is 'Shashin: Nihon no Gunkan' series. translates as 'Photographic: Japanese naval vessels' series. Highly reccommended. Ismail Hassenpflug, MSc.Eng PhD 1st year: Ionospheric Physics Kyoto University, Radio Atmospheric Science Center -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: JRuotsala@aol.com Subject: Re: Ships in Movies Reference to Mark Krumry's statement on ships that were movie stars. The USS MONTROSE APA-212 was in "South Pacific" and "In Harms Way". I served aboard her for two years in the 1950's. Had always believed that "Away All Boats" had been filmed abroad the MOUNTRAIL but not sure. could have been the RANDALL. Jim Ruotsala -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Les Pickstock Subject: Re: USN Flower class corvettes. Rod According to H.T.Lenton's American Gunboats and Minesweepers the corvettes were: U.S.S. Temptress ex H.M.S Veronica (Hull No) P.G.62 Suprise Heliotrope 63 Spry Hibiscus ?? (poss 64) Saucy Arabis 65 Restless Periwinkle 66 Ready Calendula 67 Impulse Begonia 68 Fury Larkspur 69 Courage Heartease ex Pansy 70 Tenacity Candytuft 71 All the above were returned to the R.N. in 1945 reverting to their R.N. names except Saucy which became Snapdragon as her original name had been re-allocated. The Spry hull number is a typo in my copy I'am assuming the number was 64. The corvettes were supplied with an R.N. weapons fit but as they were refitted American weapons were substituted for the British. There were also 15 Modified Corvettes serving with the U.S.N. I am uncertain if these ships were built in the U.S.A.or Canada. U.S.S. Haste was Canadian built according to the caption of the photo. Lenton says only " These vessels were first ordered for transfer to the Royal Navy under Lend/Lease, but owing to the extreme shortage of escorts the U.S.N. retained eight so that only seven were finally turned over." These ships were: U.S.S. Action / H.M.S Comfrey (Hull No) P.G.86 Alacrity / Cornet 87 Beacon / Dittany 88 * Brisk / Flax 89 Caprice / Honesty 90 * Clash / Linaria 91 * Haste / Mandrake 92 Intensity / Milfoil 93 Might / Musk 94 Pert / Nepeta 95 Prudent / Privet 96 Splendor / Rosebay 97 * Tact / Smilax 98 * Vim / Statice 99 * Vitality / Willowherb 100 * The seven ships marked are recorded as having been returned to the U.S.N in 1946. HTH Les Pickstock. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: JohnVCP@aol.com Subject: Re: Ships in the movies The producers built full scale replicas of all of the ships in question, at least parts of them, for the scenes necessary. The Japanese CVs were, in fact, a platform built out over a bay and long enough to allow the a/c to have enough "runway" to take off. There was an article, years ago, in a modeling magazine that detailed the entire making of this movie; including the replica Japanese planes that were modified from existing surplus USN / USAAF training types. A lot of fiberglass was utilized to make these over into their Japanese opposites. The American a/c that were "destroyed" at Pearl were, in fact, fiberglass replicas that were towed by a cable in the scenes were they were trying to take off. Look closely and you can see the metal framework under the fiberglass skin on the P-40's that are blown up during take off and also destroyed while parked on the line. The shots of the Japanese ships under way were made using very large-scale ship models; I do not remember their scale but it was quite large. John Heasel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: HGYL@aol.com Subject: Re: USS KEARSAGE I am most interested to read that Arthur Roberts has written articles for the Nautical Research Journal regarding Kearsage's appearance in 1864. Does anyone know what sources he researched? When Donald McNarry was doing research for his 16ft=1inch scale model he was unable to find plans in the US National Archives and used the lines plan, elevation and deck plan of Kearsage's sister ship Mohican which are endorsed "Kearsage built by this plan June 1861". He was, furthermore, able to find only one photograph of the ship, taken just after her return to the US after the fight with Alabama. Kearsage was, of course, completely rebuilt in 1888 so anyone researching for a model build needs to be wary of the dates of source material. Anyone interested in Donald McNarry's model of Kearsage will find photographs and notes on pages 68 and 69 of Model Shipwright no. 63, March 1988. Harold Lincoln -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: "Mike Dunn" Subject: Re: HMS Happy and Royal Navy Carrier Names AllenFW2@aol.com wrote :- >> Seriously though, I read in Navy News/was told by Royal Navy contacts that the MoD is seriously looking into designing and building a new set of large carriers. I understand that they will be larger than the current lot, but smaller than our Navy's Nimitz monsters. << My understanding is of two, maybe three, decent-sized carriers are on the drawing boards. Indeed, recent (ie past 10 days) speculation is that there may be an early (ie next few months) announcement of one or more of these contracts going to Harland & Wolfe in Belfast, seeing as Cunard have again decided to go to the Continent for their next cruise ship (don't they learn their lessons?). I had thought that we were still a couple of years away from these new carriers (thought to be about double the displacement of the Invincible class) being ordered......we can but hope for announcements this year!!! While I would like to see "proper" carrier aviation back in the RN, I do like the Harriers........add on the new assult ships that are being drawn up.......the RN looks like it may be getting back to a decent strength. Add in a cruiser class (and not just call them frigates again), and.......! And as to being smaller than the Nimitz.....well, why would we want something so ungainly? The 'Vince class does us good now, but Ocean has shown how a larger vessel can be more adaptable......a displacement of 40,000 tons would allow greater flexibility, without being hampered by the requirements of a nuclear power plant, one result being the Nimitz class is unwelcome in many parts of the world...... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Battleship Row Fit I do not think so. The references refer directly to the interception of Japanese HF radio traffic in the late ninethirties, therefore this cannot mean any form of radar. Interception of radar signals at sea was not introduced onto ships until 1941, and that was in the European area of operations, NOT the pacific. Over to you. And in the meantime I shall consume a cigar and whiskey or two, or three. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: "Mike" Subject: Re Flags Hi Sean, >> I've been wondering for some time now- what flags, ensigns and pennants get flown from where at what time? I'm interested in WWII methods, all navies, but particularly the Japanese Fleet. I know Jacks are flown from the bow when in port, but am unsure where the Ensign goes when underway, as well as an officer's pennant. << Well, jacks are always flown from the jack-staff. The ensign is almost always flown from the ensign-staff, unless you are on a small 'copter-carrying vessel (eg the Type 22 frigate) where it would be risky. In this case, use is made of the ensign gaff on the foremast. Note that placing it on the ensign gaff of the mainmast would result in the ensign being exposed to the exhaust gases. If looking at older vesels(ie 1870s to WWII), you may find that the ensign is removed from the ensign staff before entering combat - at this point, the mainmast's ensign gaff is used. Also, you may find that all the gaffs have the ensign on - this would be due to the smoke from the various smokestacks. The foremast is the place for signalling hoists, as this is closest to the Flag Bridge. As to pennants - do you mean the those ships flying the flag of an admiral? The full admiral's flag in the RN is the Cross of St George; a vice-admiral's flag is defaced with a red ball in the upper quarter nearest the staff; a rear-admiral's flag is further defaced by a second ball in the lower quarter. A commodore has a tapering "broad pennant" instead. Any ship not carrying a flag officer is known as a "private ship". One last item to note: if a flagship is signalling a hoist, it is acknowledged on all other vessels. It is not actually executed until the flagship hauls it down. The sole exception to this is the "Open Fire!" hoist - this is executed immediately the hoist reaches the yardarm. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: USN Flowers Hi Rod Here's the list PG62 Temptress (ex Veronica) PG63 Surprise (es Heliotrope) PG64 Spry (ex Hibiscus) PG65 Saucy (ex Arabis) PG66 Restless (ex Periwinkle) PG67 Ready (ex Calendula) PG68 Impulse (ex Begonia) PG69 Fury (ex Larkspur) PG70 Courage (ex Heartsease) PG71 Tenacity (ex Candytuft) All transferred Spring 1942 and returned to RN 8/45 There were several others being built in Canada for the USN. Some of these went to the RN and the following ended up in USN service PG86 Action (ex Comfrey) PG87 Alacrity (ex Cornel) PG89 Brisk (ex Flax) PG92 Haste (ex Mandrake) PG93 Intensity (ex Milfoil) PG94 Might (ex Musk) PG95 Pert (ex Nepeta) PG96 Prudent (ex Privet) Those that went to the RN were PG88 Beacon (became Dittany 3/43) PG90 Caprice (became Honesty 5/43) PG91 Clash (became Linaria 6/43) PG97 Splendor (became Rosebay 7/43) PG98 Tact (became Smilax 6/43) PG99 Vim (became Statice 9/43) PG100 Vitality (became Willowherb 8/43) Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 30) From: "Kelvin Mok" Subject: NOAHS ARC Found this while cleaning up my old papers. >> Not a drop in sight Some playful expatriate Americans in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, have developed a unique career opportunity for former Desert Storm troops and journalists. The members of the Notable or Anyway Honorable Society of Arabian Riverboat Captains (NOAHS ARC) are offering free commissions. And although there are no rivers in Saudi Arabia, the perquisites of the job are apparently impressive enough to attract Chairman of the joint Chiefs of Staff Colin Powell, whom the group claims as a member. Arabian Riverboat Captains are entitled to such privileges as priority over so-called at highway crossings and ships of the desert (camels) access to all legal alcoholic beverages in Saudi Arabia (there are none). Caroline Piper, a spokesman for confirm that the Powell, said that she could not confirm that the general accepted a commission from NOAHS ARC. Said Piper: “He’s a pretty busy man these days.” McClean’s Magazine. Sep 2, 1991 Kelvin Mok -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 31) From: "wblad" Subject: Flowers from Britain Flower class corvettes in the U.S. Navy were designated PG (Patrol Gunboat). PG 62 - 71 transferred from RN under reverse lend-lease (lease-lend), in Spring, 1942. PG 86 - 100 were built in Canada for USN, but 7 of these were turned over to RN without seeing US service. PG 62 - 71 were returned to RN in August, 1945. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 32) From: "wblad" Subject: Ships in movies The dirigible in "Here Comes The Navy" is the Los Angeles. Shenandoah crashed in 1925. The Beery - Gable flick is "Helldivers" of 1931, which created quite a stir in Japan and was required viewing for her naval aviators. It re-uses stock footage from the twenties and is the second Hollywood movie to feature Lex and Sara. The silent "Flying Fleet" in 1928 was the first. Both were made by MGM, hence the similar footage. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 33) From: Loren Perry Subject: Tora Tora Tora's big battleships The two large battleship sets that appear in Tora Tora Tora were full-scale mockups built by 20th Century Fox especially for that film. The American USS Nevada mockup was actually a floating barge constructed at Pearl Harbor and it depicted only the after half of the ship, as per the requirements of the film's director of the USN scenes. It could be towed and moved when the action demanded it. For example, when you see shots of the Nevada getteing underway, the barge is moving, but under close inspection, you'll see there is no backwash from the screws visible in the water (no screws were fitted.) For the IJN scenes which were shot by a Japanese film crew in Japan, a full-size Nagato mockup was constructed of steel and plywood and sited on a slope along the Japanese coast with the bow overlooking the sea. IOW, the mockup was actually on land near the water. This was fitted out in full detail on the atrboard side only. The port side of the superstructure was left plain because that part of the vessel was never filmed. The camera angles used never showed the vessel afloat, so this was acceptable. The U.S. and Japanese film crews worked independently on their respective parts of Tora and the final products were later edited together as a complete film at Fox Studios. The engineering plans for the Nevada barge were stored in a blueprint cabinet at Building 56 located at Naval Weapons Stations Seal Beach when I was assigned there back in the 1980s. These drawings were donated by 20th Century Fox to the Los Angeles Navy Recruiting Command along with numerous miniature battleships (30 feet long!), various battleship fittings, and other artifacts from Tora Tora Tora. A large crate full of miniature Titanic fittings from the film Raise The Titanic was also stored at Building 56. I have no idea what's become of them since I left there, but I do know that the Titanic fittings belonged to a film crew member who was on good terms with the Navy Recruiting personnel there. They (we) allowed this fellow to store some of his movie memorabilia in unused spaces, and the Titanic fittings were part of his collection. Mostly things like vents, doors, deck hardware and such, nothing spectacular like lifeboats or funnels. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 34) From: Roland Mar Subject: Re: end of war of 1812 To: Chris Langtree Hi: I think I said that "one" of the causes of the end of the war was the discontent of the Brit merchant class. Actually we probably aren't that far apart. What follows is of course only IMHO and subject to being disregarded as balderdash at will. Aside from the various causes of the war being moot [impressment, the US "Warhawks" finding out the the Canadians really DIDN'T want to be liberated, sundry Orders in Council, etc.]; there was a war weariness on both sides. From the US side, there was the sad fact that we had very few successes and many defeats. Our successes probably could be listed on the fingers of one hand: 1) the frigate actions mentioned, which had roughly the equivalent shock effect on the Royal Navy then as Savo Island later had on us in WW II, only repeated several times, 2) the effects of American commerce raiding by Navy and privateers [No Brit ship was safe anywhere in the world. Lloyd's was having conniption fits and making life as miserable possible for the Ministry], 3) the purely defensive "victory" at Ft. McHenry which kept the Brits from coming back to D.C. to stay this time, 4) Perry on the Great Lakes, and 5) New Orleans, which was both late and unnecessary. Countering these few successes were failures in Canada, the loss of our own capitol in a raid that could have been an occupation, and an apparent inability to meet the Royal Army on even terms. I will gladly grant that our own commercial interests were severely thumped upon also, with a blockade of our coast and the sweeping of American ships from the high seas. An interesting footnote to history is that at the moment when the peace treaty was announced in D.C. and the celebrations were starting, a delegation from the New England states arrived bearing a declaration of seccession; since they had decided they preferred a separate peace with Britain to the rigors of life under the blockade. Apparently after a hasty bonfire, they retreated back to the rock-bound coasts of the North East. The Brits were tired of the generation long effort of containing Napoleon, and their economic losses from American war [remember, the Brits live by seaborne commerce]. Those who wished to teach the yankees a lesson for 1776 were by then "burned out" on the concept of more war. Spared the terrors of a foreign army on their own soil, the average Brit subject did not have the immediate problems the Americans had, but they bore a different burden. The Coalitions against Napoleon were financed by British gold. This led the Inland Revenue of the time to come up with a bunch of excise taxes and horror of horrors, to create the first income tax (shudder!). After Napoleon was safely tucked away, the mercantile classes; smarting from a) the direct losses of shipping, b) the increase in the costs of doing business at all levels caused by the war risk insurance rates on all shipping, and c) having the bloody Rev-noo-ers in their pockets; made it quite plain to the Ministry that enough was enough. Keep in mind that this was before electoral reforms in Britain and only the nobility and the weatlthier merchant classes really had any effect on the government of the realm. Thus the war ended by a combination of mutual exhaustion tempered with a mild outbreak of common sense. I just mentioned in passing one of the forms of exhaustion. Roland Mar -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 35) From: "John Rule" Subject: HO Scale There is no doubt that HO scale is approximately 1:87 scale, the actual scale being 3.5mm = 1foot. The scale of the Airfix armour models including I presume their Landing Craft kit is 4mm = 1 foot, or approximately 1: 76. There is a marked difference between the two scales. 1:76 is closer to the popular aircraft scale of 1:72 and many armour models have been to this scale by a few manufacturers. Except among purists 1:76 and 1:72 are intermixed in the same that we "one scale" ship modellers mix 1:700 with 1:720 or 1:1200 with 1:1250. John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 36) From: "John Sheridan" Subject: Re: Flower Class Corvettes >> I wasn't really interested in the Flower Class Corvettes until I read White Ensign Model's home page. They reference that 15 of these ships were transferred to the US under Lend Lease. Can anybody provide names, hull numbers, or designations for these ships in USN service? << They were classified as: PG-Gun Boats, Temptress Class Names PG 62 Temptress PG 63 Surprise PG 64 Spry PG 65 Saucy PG 66 Restless PG 67 Ready PG 68 Impulse PG 69 Fury PG 70 Courage PG 71 Tenacity PG 87 Alacrity PG 89 Brisk PG 92 Hasty PG 93 Intensity PG 94 Might PG 95 Pert PG 96 Prudent John R. Sheridan What I do to Spammers: http://microscale.com/images/N2.jpg I am not a Member of the Lumber Cartel (tinlc) and I am not Unit #631 Last last place on earth I would look for the Lumber Cartel(tm) is http://come.to/the.lumber.cartel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 37) From: "John Rule" Subject: Flower Class Corvettes The US acquired 15 Flower Class Corvettes as follows: PG 62 Temptress PG 63 Surprise PG 64 Spry PG 65 Saucy PG 66 Restless PG 67 Ready PG 68 Impulse PG 69 Fury PG 70 Courage PG 71 Tenacity The were all transferred from the Royal Navy. In addition another 8 were acquired from Canadian yards as follows: PG 86 Action PG 87 Alacrity PG 89 Brisk PG 92 Haste PG 93 Intensity PG 94 Might PG 95 Pert PG 96 Prudent The armament was different on the US Flowers, with US 4 inch and 3 inch replacing the British pattern weapons. Hope this helps. Incidentally a new book on the Flower Class Corvettes by John Lambert has just been published by WR Press. John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 38) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Re: Favorite Ship Names Hi; Lake Tanganyika WWI. HMS MiMi, FiFi, and TuTu. I can hear the bosun`s call now! "FiFi Arriving"!! And the hat bands! Chuck The UNMENTIONABLE Chuck Duggie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 39) From: URUDOFSKY@aol.com Subject: Re: Pre-Dreadnoughts The paint of Imperial Russian and Soviet ships is hard to figure out, but while you're at it you should be able to make the proper decals in Russian letters on your computer. How to get a Russian Keyboard on Windows 98 1. Go to: Settings 2. Go to: Keyboard 3. Go to: Keyboard Properties 4. Hit: Language 5. Hit: Add and scroll to Russian 6. Hit: Switch Languages: choose Control+Shift 7. Hit: Apply 8. Hit: OK To switch from the English to the Russian alphabet and back hit Control+Shift. Unless you have a Cyrillic Keyboard you have to make a list or an overlay of which Roman key corresponds to what proper Russian letter. So, all you need to do is to switch to Russian (Control+Shift) and hit every key in sequence to get a map of the keyboard. It will test your IQ! Good luck! I tried, but AOL does not understand Cyrillic. Does anyone know how. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 40) From: "Glenn & Kelly Neklason" Subject: Re: Ships in the movies I believe that it was the USS Oriskany (CV-34) that played a Japanese carrier in "Tora, Tora, Tora", not the Ticonderoga (CV-14). Those mock up Zeros also hold the distincitonof being the only civilian aircraft to take off from US carrier. Derek, I seem to remember reading somewhere that they did build a full scale Nagato out of plywood for "Tora, Tora, Tora". Glenn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 41) From: "Peter & Donna Mispelkamp" Subject: RN Ship nick-names: >> My vote for favorite RN ship names goes to the nicknames given by their crews to Fisher's 'light battlecruisers", Glorious, Courageous, and Furious, which were converted to aircraft carriers postwar: Curious, Spurious and Uproarious. << Yes, I like these names too, but I never heard of "Curious" but do remember that one was given the name of "HMS Outrageous". Memory tells me that one of them may also have been nicknamed "HMS Ridiculous" Also, I trust you know about "HMS Refit" and "HMS Repair" i.e. the Renown and Repulse - not sure which one was which though. Peter K. H. Mispelkamp -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 42) From: Kdg345@aol.com Subject: Re: USS Hancock To answer Derek Wakefield: The aircraft carrier Hancock was named after a troop transport of WW1 and it in turn was named after John Hancock one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence. That is what the recommisioning ceremony of the Hancock said in 1954 - as I remember it. Ken Groom -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 43) From: Kdg345@aol.com Subject: Re: Flags Flags locations: The U.S. flag is displayed on the mast when underway and when in port on the stern and during the day. When I was part of the recommissioning crew of The Hancock CVA-19, in 1954, a large percentage of the crew had never been to sea before - even Chief Petty Officers. One night I came aboard and the officer of the deck, an ensign, ask me to salute the flag at the stern. I replyed that I couldn't because there was no flag there. He said that all of the chiefs had been saluting the stern. So I did. I went below to the administrative office where I worked and looked up the Navy Regs. and confirmed that I was right. I then took the regs. up to the officer of the deck and showed him the correct proceedure - he thanked me. I could probably name quite a few ships that were in service during my time of the Korean War, but there is probably a much more comprensive list somewhere. Ken Groom -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 44) From: Chuck Messer Subject: Tora! Tora! Tora! In answer to Derek's question regarding the Nagato in Tora Tora Tora, The Japanese film makers actually built a waterline-up mockup of the ship, 1:1 scale. I saw a photo of it. It was landlocked, right up against the shore. That must have been REALLY impressive close up. I has been said that the movie cost more than the actual attack did. I understand the mockup was used again in "Midway". Chuck -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 45) From: WVeigele@aol.com Subject: Ships used during the Korean War Among the less well known ships that served in the Korean War are at least nine of the 173', steel-hulled PC Patrol Craft of World War II. PC 823 which became the Korean Bok Du San fought and won the most important naval engagement of the war. Details can be found in the book "PC Patrol Craft of World War II" which is reviewed on the Warship website. Bill Veigele -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 46) From: "wblad" Subject: Ships in Tora, Tora, Tora The Nagato was a full scale wooden mockup (or 1:1 Scale model) of the front half of the ship only. It was built on a pier jutting out into a bay in Japan so that it would appear to be at sea. Two full scale mockups of the back half of US battleships were built at Pearl Harbor. One had a cage mast and the other a tripod. The latter had the cutout for a stern chaser as the Nevadas and all triple turrets as the Pennsylvanias. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 47) From: SJantscher@aol.com Subject: USN Flower Class Corvettes Rod, I think I have the answer you're looking for. I got this from Lenton's American Gunboats and Minesweepers. There are ten Flower class ships and 22 A/S trawlers loaned to the USN in early '42. These (Flowers) were, Temptress (ex-RN Veronica), Surprise (ex-RN Heliotrope), Spry (ex-RN Hibiscus), Saucy (ex-RN Arabis), Restless (ex-RN Periwinkle), Ready (ex-RN Calendula), Impulse (ex-RN Begonia), Fury 9ex-RN Larkspur), Courage (ex-RN Heartsease), Tenacity (ex-RN Candytuft). The USN also retained eight modified Flower class. These were Action, Alacrity, Brisk, Haste, Intensity, Might, Pert, Prudent. These were improved with small differences that were made as a result of war experience and also had two US made 3 inch guns (one fore and one aft). Hope this is of some help. By the way, talking about ship names, these were'nt too bad. Good Luck Steve Jantscher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: CokerRE@aol.com Subject: Fine wire Several readers have asked about fine wire. I have a large assortment from .001" and up in copper, aluminum, and stainless steel. It comes on rolls with hundreds of feet to the roll, far too much for one modeler to use in a lifetime. If a dealer would like to take it off my hands for a reasonable price, he can then sell it in small quantities at reasonable prices. Interested parties please reply off line to PC Coker at cokerre@aol.com. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Subject: News from Atlantic Models Hi everyone, And Yes! I am still out here slaving away over a hot model (Ship!!!!!, big disappointment). I am scaling down my efforts to release any home grown kits, aside from the White Ensign products, and have now handed over the USS C F Adams class DDG patterns and the USS Knox project to Dave and Caroline to get the production of these kits moving quickly. They are both in 1/350 scale BTW. The Kirov 1/350 project is rapidly developing into a casting nightmare, with serious doubts arising as to whether or not this can be achieved. However all is not lost on this front, as I have a good set of patterns for several Russian naval weapons and directors, as a result. If I work on adding a few more later, there is potential for a range of resin weapons for those of you who are of a mind to scratch build any modern Soviet/Russian naval subjects. The 1/600 scale HMS Dido is still going ahead as planned though it be slow at the moment. It will be released this year, I hope. Thats all I can say about it for now. Sorry to keep you waiting. All the best Peter Hall Atlantic Models etc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume