Subject: SMML VOL 878 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:21:31 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Congratulations 2: Stripping Paint Response/Star Blazers Question 3: Re: Big planes landing on carriers 4: C-17 landing 5: Re: New Orleans warship site 6: Queen Mary 2 7: Re: Hobby Shop Closings 8: Re: Russian Icebreaker 9: Re: Queen Mary 2 10: HMS Tracker 11: Enterprise Decals 12: April Phule Again! 13: Russian icebreaker kits 14: Hasegawa 1/160 I-400 class multi-media kit 15: USS Patterson DD392 16: C-17s on deck and removing Tamiya Acrylics 17: Queen Mary 2 18: New ship modeling book from Kalmbauch(Fine Scale) 19: Thank You! 20: Russian Icebreaker Kit 21: Re: C-17 on LHD 22: Stripping Tamiya paint 23: Re: C-17 photo 24: Re: Stripping Tamiya Acrylics 25: More white rectangles 26: Shinano 27: Re: Stripping Tamiya Acrylics 28: Re: The ultimate "might have beens" that were 29: CG URL 30: Russian Ice Breaker Kit 31: Re: Congratulations 32: USS Texas 33: Denton USA 34: Impact Adhesive 35: Leslie Brown, upcoming New Orleans tour 36: Big E at Midway -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Need to Contact! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Shane Subject: Re: Congratulations OOPPS Sorry Felix for misspelling your last name. It is of course Felix Bustelo, NOT the bastardised form that I wrote in yesterdays SMML. Regards, Shane - that's what I get for being a smartarse I suppose ;-). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Frank Allen Subject: Stripping Paint Response/Star Blazers Question Hi Derek A product I find to work EXTREMELY well removing any paint is Polly S/Floquil's "Easy Lift-Off" Use that in concert with a soft toothbrush and some soapy water and you will soon have that bird stripped. Oh! One question for you - what primary hull colour do you suggest using for the original/classic Space Cruiser Yamato/Argo? It appears a bit blue to me on my tapes. Frank Allen Battle Cruiser Hood -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Art Pagsuyoin Subject: Re: Big planes landing on carriers >> Here's a picture of a C-130 landing on the USS Forestall: http://www.uss-salem.org/navhist/carriers/images/odd/odd22.jpg But that's nothing... here's a shot of a C-17 (no typo) landing on an LHD! http://www.uss-salem.org/navhist/carriers/images/odd/odd55.jpg I assume the picture is genuine, unless someone else knows otherwise << Joe- The first shot is legit. The second of the c-17 is doctored. Working in graphic design and photoshop for awhile one can tell the obvious distortion. Now that's an April Fools joke... art -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Bergschöld Pelle Subject: C-17 landing In my opinion, the pic is clearly a fake. First, check the size of the yellowshirt compared to the plane, and second, watch the quite apparent cutting edge just where the shadow begins on the deck. Anyway, it is a fascinating idea, so thanks for the link, Joe. BR P Bergschold SWE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: New Orleans warship site I'll second the recommendation of the USS Kidd at Baton Rouge. It's the best maintained and restored Fletcher in the world and well worth the time it takes to see. I went aboard last year on my way to Orlando and thoroughly enjoyed myself. The museum at the site is well worth the trip as well. It can be seen as you cross the Mississippi River at the Texas/Louisiana border. Highly recommended! Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Robert Mosher" Subject: Queen Mary 2 I don't recall where other than a yard in France, but I do recall seeing Harland & Wolf in Belfast claiming they would go under if they didn't win the contract - and they didn't. Robert M -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Ann Sinkankas" Subject: Re: Hobby Shop Closings Greetings All: I've watched hobby shops slowly disappearing for two decades in the USA. Here in the South, there is a tremdendous variety of sports to beguile young and old--and not just spectator sports. Everything from 4-wheel driving, jet skis, a huge range of amateur sports leagues and teams, to old-fashioned speed boats, and the ever-popular running around in your Jeep drinking beer. Add to this the massive participation in all kinds of computer games and internet stuff... The computer stores I see in malls are now largely converted to computer game stores; serious software is disappearing from their shelves. The incredible prosperity all around us just fuels this trend by making such toys as jet skis and Jeeps more readily available to middle-class suburban kids. Right now, any teenager with a temperature can get a job and net $100 a week while living at home free. In short, the kids that are willing to actually do things are doing something else besides model building, and I expect this trend will continue. My hope is that 3-D representation of objects on computer displays will improve to the point where we'll get a good look at the things we want to buy at the hobby web site--which will be the only store we'll be using in a few years! Regards, GMS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Robert Mosher" Subject: Re: Russian Icebreaker I agree that this probably is the Heller kit repackaged, I believe I recall seeing that box around Christmas time here in Moscow - in that box style (amazingly primitive in both graphics and cardboard) they offered POTEMKIN, AVRORA, ARKHANGELSK (exHMS Renown?), and the icebreaker. Good prices (I think $16 still comes out about twice the ruble price in Moscow) even compared to the newer Russian made kits coming on the market. Robert M -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Christopher Crofoot Subject: Re: Queen Mary 2 For info on the QM2 you can go to: http://www.cunard.com/index.cfm?method=cfleet&ship=PQM&content=home&Lang=US She's going to be built in St. Nazaire.... Chris (STILL looking for that damn QM anatomy book) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "FCR" Subject: HMS Tracker Hello SMMLies I've got this weekend the Skywave escort-carrier HMS Tracker. I already have the GMM photo-etch to detail it but there a few things that gives me to much interrogations. First, I am not quite actualized with WWII Royal Navy camouflages and the instructions don't bring any details about the paints to use on it, so if anybody have any information about it please tell me. Second, the carrier transports two RN 4 inch AA but the model it self indicate to use the USN 5 inch guns??? It is not the same weapon I believe. Who have this weapons to sell, WEM? By the way I would like to build one diorama for the carrier with one escort or cruiser, any suggestions? Fleet or escort destroyers, light cruisers, frigates, corvettes, etc. I already saw one diorama of it in the Warship website but I would like also to do it but only with the two ships, side by side. I believe that I already have this planned for another aircraft-carrier of mine, but... Thanks in advance. Happy Modeling Filipe C. Ramires Lisboa, PORTUGAL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Satin, Michael N. (LNG-SHEP)" Subject: Enterprise Decals A few days ago Duane Fowler posted here that he was nearly finished with a set of decals for the 1/350 Tamiya Enterprise, CVN-65. Any further news? Any info on what exactly is included? Considering Duane's reputation, this could be a great sheet. What an incredible help it would be!! Michael -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Michael Eisenstadt Subject: April Phule Again! Folks: I think that April Phule has struck again, with that photo of the C-17 landing on the deck of an LHD. Who needs arrester hooks anyway, when the deck hands are willing to do the job for you? Next, I want to see a photo of the 82d doing a mass tactical jump onto the deck of a carrier. Keep away from 'dem high tension lines, and if it looks like you're about to do a tree landing, keep your feet and knees together! Har, har, har.... Yours truly, Mike Eisenstadt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Loren Perry Subject: Russian icebreaker kits There is a second Russian icebreaker kit available (I have a sample of each) - the more modern Arktika, also in 1/400 scale, and likely also tooled up by Heller. This kit has the name "Arktika" in Cyrillic letters molded on the bow with a symbolic "atom" molded just aft of the name. The Lenin has its name in both Cyrillic and English molded on the bow. Interestingly, the Lenin's name is spelled "LENINE" on the supplied plastic nameplate that attaches to the display stand, but it appears as "LENIN" in several locations on the ship itself. Both kits are very buildable and are of typical Heller quality in both molding and level of detail. The Russian language instructions are the main challenge, especially regarding the color schemes. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Bill Gruner Subject: Hasegawa 1/160 I-400 class multi-media kit Hasegawa actually first produced this kit about 15 years or more ago. It has been re-released a few times, each time at a price considerably higher than the previous release. I sold some a couple of years ago for around $300, as I remember. It sure doesn't seem worth the $700 or so you have been quoted, as it is big, but not close to state-of-the-art. Thanks, Bill Gruner http://www.pacificfront.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "PAUL LEUGERS" Subject: USS Patterson DD392 I am building the Patterson and need the color it would have been painted in April 1944. And what manufacturer puts out that particular color. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Jens H. Brandal" Subject: C-17s on deck and removing Tamiya Acrylics That C-17 picture has got to be a fake. Look at the size of the cockpit windows compared to the size of the guy in the foreground. And, where does all the dust come from??? Besides, I wouldn't be standing there if four huge jet engines came my way. Removing Tamiya Acrylics: Methylated spirits strip Tamiya Acrylics, even after a long time. It strips nearly anything else too - even enamels, but it does not harm the plastic. Jens (back among the SMMLies after six weeks of armour modelling) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Jean-Paul Binot" Subject: Queen Mary 2 >> Does anyone know where the new Queen Mary 2 ocean liner is being built? Supposedly it will be able to carry 2,800 passengers which makes me think it's got to be bigger than a Nimitz class carrier, any one heard anything? << On March 10, 2000 Cunard announced that the company had signed a letter of intent to build its super-liner Queen Mary 2 at the Alstom Chantiers de L'Atlantique shipyard in Saint-Nazaire, France. The liner is expected to be launched in the last quarter of 2003. Once launched, Queen Mary 2 is intended to fly the British flag, with her homeport being Southampton, England. It is a mild irony that the successor of the three proud Queens of the Cunard Line will be built by the shipyard that built the Normandie and the France. Let's hope that the shipyard will be able to produce yet another graceful liner, and spare us the horible sight of a 150,000 ton floating condo building. When you think about it, 150,000 tons is nearly twice the tonnage of Normandie or Queen Mary... You can get a lot of information about Cunard on their excellent web site at: http://www.cunardline.com/ Jean-Paul Binot Paris -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: New ship modeling book from Kalmbauch(Fine Scale) Happened by one of the hobby shops here in Tucson, and to my surprise, found their first, and only copy (not many ship modelers out here in the desert), of Mike Ashey's new book on ship modeling, which just came in today. This is an expansion of his first book on this subject. It is really good and I think it would really help all you "Plastic Only" modelers get an introduction to resin ship kits. There is even a section on scratch building. The format is mostly photos with very informative captions, so there are hundreds of photos in this book. I liked it, and highly recommend it. Steve Wiper www.classicwarships.simplenet.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Felix Bustelo" Subject: Thank You! Hello All, I would like to thank Shane Jenkins, Keith Butterley (who told Shane about my success) and all of you who have dropped me a note of congratulations. My good fortune at the RepLICon 2000 would not have been possible without all of the knowledge I have acquired from this mailing list. Regards, Felix Bustelo -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Russian Icebreaker Kit The Russian Icebreaker in the kit is the Arktica. It was one of the first nuclear icebreakers in service. There were several built over a couple of decades with the latest being the Yamal, I believe. The kit is fairly basic with a lot of room for detailing, although basically accurate. Getting resource information will be the most dificult part. I do not know if it is a repackaging of the Heller kit but doubt it. The parts are generally heavier than Heller kits and it just doesn't feel like a Heller. I could be wrong though. The box and instructions are VERY basic and of course all the text is in cyrillic. At least you know that that part is authentic! Regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Mike Connelley Subject: Re: C-17 on LHD Howdy: The photo with the C-17 landing on the LHD is clearly fake. First of all, the guy on the deck (if it were real) is dead meat. He'd either be run over, or sucked into an engine, or run over then sucked in. Second, the C-17 wouldn't kick up that much dust on the deck of a Navy ship...it's at sea folks...no dust around! Helicopters hardly kick up anything (at least visible in photos) when lifting off of the deck of a ship. Plus, the C-17 is too small and it's picture has been shrunk down to fit. Just thought I'd mention that. Cheers Mike Connelley -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: SAMI ARIM Subject: Stripping Tamiya paint I just had a very bad paint job with Tamiya acrylics and denatured alcohol saved several months of work for me. Although the paintjob was not long ago, it was long enough for the paint to dry. It will be a messy job though. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Darren Scannell Subject: Re: C-17 photo >> But that's nothing... here's a shot of a C-17 (no typo) landing on an LHD! http://www.uss-salem.org/navhist/carriers/images/odd/odd55.jpg I assume the picture is genuine, unless someone else knows otherwise << Hey Joe, Nice photo, but I wonder where they got all that dust on the flight deck that is swirling in the air! ; ) Most definitely a fake. Darren Scannell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: Darren Scannell Subject: Re: Stripping Tamiya Acrylics Isopropyl Alcohol dissolves Acrylics nicely and leaves the Styrene alone. I use the full strength stuff found in electronics stores. as a thinner and stripper for Tamiya and Gunze. It will also take off freshly painted enamel. Darren Scannell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: Dave Swindell Subject: More white rectangles Hi Mike, Thanks for the support and protractor work measuring the angles of the white deck edge rectangles, I was kind of expecting a barrage of emails refuting my theory! Unfortunately I won't have my copy of requiem till next week so I can't check the photo F Hueso refers to, but all the photo's I have ( the one in the gakken book is very good) show the rectangles less rather than more evenly spaced, the increase in spacing towards the bow being particularly noticeable. The gakken photo clearly shows the port rectangles, which extend aft to the first deck edge triple 25mm mount. Those between this mount and the forward secondary turret are relatively evenly spaced, which still fits with angular measurement from the bridge. They could be used for both navigation from the bridge and spotting threats from the defence platform above. There is one mark between the two deck edge mounts and possibly 3 or 4 aft of this. These could still be related to angles from the bridge if they relate to a wider angular spread say 10 degrees or cardinal points. When I've a bit more time I'll have a go at plotting them. Musashi photos don't appear to show any rectangles. Now on to the waterways. Mike gives two possibilities, they were metal painted grey, and the waterway was painted white. I'd like to try a third. F Hueso correctly points out the Skulski drawings show the outboard section of the waterway to be steel and the inboard section to be wood. Looking in cross section there is a raised steel section at the deck edge, steel section at deck level, wood deck, then a raised wood strip. Now if you look in plan, this raised wood strip turns outboard almost to the raised steel section next to the scuppers. This arrangement only exists in the midships section, aft and forward the inner wooden strip isn't there. The photo's were taken whilst the ship was in action and the sun was low in the sky giving strong light and shadow. The ship has been subjected to some near misses (and a couple of hits) which will have thrown spray over the deck, there are several areas of the wooden deck which are noticeably darker (i.e. wet). The shape of the waterways noted above would trap water which got into them which would only drain slowly at each end, and being at the deck edge would be in the wettest place. The deck behind the waterway between the deck edge gun mounts is clearly wet several feet inboard. If this channel was full of water, then what appears to be light or white paint could actually be sunlight reflecting off the pooled water. The open deck wouldn't reflect as the water would have room to spread and soak into the wood ( hence the darker patches) There are other light strips along the deck edge, they all appear to correspond with these channel waterway sections. What do you think folks? Dave Swindell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: Dave Swindell Subject: Shinano Hi Zachary The best source of reference I can offer is the new Gakken book on the Shinano and Taiho, no 22 I got mine from Hobbylink Japan, 1600 yen, so not too expensive. It has the only known photo of Shinano as well as 1:700 plans which include internal layout, useful for your hangar. Unfortunately they are annotated in Japanese only :-(. There's good photo coverage of the Taiho which had a lot of similarities with Shinano, there's a couple of small hangar shots as well. Dave Swindell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: "Tony Mollica" Subject: Re: Stripping Tamiya Acrylics Try immersing the model or part in some warm water with a little laundry powder dissolved in it. I've successfully used it, but not on five year dry paint. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: Mark McKellar Subject: Re: The ultimate "might have beens" that were Last time I looked the Air & Space Smithsonian magazine website had a quicktime clip of this landing and launch. A odd sight to say the least. Mark -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29) From: Ed Grune Subject: CG URL John Ken Laessers Coast Guard page loaded for me when I clicked the hyperlink in your repost of my message. When I went back to the .com it opened SLOWLY, but it did do something. FWIW - I'm running Netscape 4.7 on a 90 mHz machine w/ 32 meg RAM. In case anyone missed the reference to Duane "Mr. Coast Guard" Fowler's favorite ship. Its the USCG DUANE (WPG-33). Ed Mansfield, TX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 30) From: "sctrtrash" Subject: Russian Ice Breaker Kit The model you describe sounds like the "Arctica". I bought the model, brought it home, turned on the Discovery channel, and there was the actual ship breaking ice in some documentary about Siberia. The model fairs well with the Revell stuff from the '50's. Not bad, and with GMM PE stuff should turn out to be a decent model. I remember the ship had red, like boxcar red decks, and the main vessel was black or dark brown. It was hard to try and pick details off the T.V. Mark Krumrey New RIchmond WI -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 31) From: Mike Settle Subject: Re: Congratulations >> Word has reached me a SMMLie doing very well at RepLICon 2000 with a 3rd place & a 2nd place in two competitions. So stand up Felix Bustedo & take a bow for the following results ;-) Larger than 1/500 - 3rd place with the 1/400 Jean Moulin Smaller than 1/500 - 2nd place withe the Airfix 1/600 HMS Iron Duke Well done. << Yeah, what Shane said. Congratulations, Felix. Job well done. Mike Settle I am not agent #1908 of the non-existent Lumber Cartel (tinlc)tm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 32) From: SolidStump@aol.com Subject: USS Texas I recently squeezed in a visit to the Battleship Texas while on a business trip to Houston. There are bigger warships one can visit and I did not expect to be particularly impressed with this little ship. I was however, very impressed. No offense to Wiper's pictorial but pictures just can't convey the power and dignity of the old lady. Built as the "ultimate dreadnaught" of 1914, the ship represented the latest big gun and armour technology. The main armament still dominates the vessel and is in no way subordinated by the WW2 AA refit. You can go virtually anywhere on the ship see all the perspectives a crew would have of her. War machines are not inherently romantic; only people who don't have to fight in them think so. But the deep respect and even affection sailors gain for their ships certainly became understandable to me. The ship-museum is in trouble. They need donations. Go see this symbol of an era and you won't need to be asked for your help. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 33) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Denton USA >> Is it a horror & a shock to live in Denton USA ;->> << Yeah, especially when you do a walkabout down around Fry St (near the Univ of N. Texas) on Thursday/Friday night. The shock of seeing the lines on all those destroyers, and the horror of realizing you're old enough to be their dad. Home of Happiness...my fantail! Go Navy! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 34) From: RhinoBones@aol.com Subject: Impact Adhesive In the SMML modeling tips page is an excellent paper by a fellow named Chris Drage. In it he talks about installing PE railings using an adhesive he describes as "impact adhesive". Never heard of the stuff . . . can someone give me examples of manufacturers and/or product names I might look for in a California model store? Regards, RhinoBones -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 35) From: "Melvin Burmaster" Subject: Leslie Brown, upcoming New Orleans tour In spite of the fact that New Orleans is a "port town" of 300 years age, there is next to zero as to nautical matters. The CA New Orleans was offered up to the city in 1960 but was refused. The ship bell was in the Jefferson Parish Government office but disappeared about a decade ago. There is a proposed D-Day Museum on the way in building, sponsored mainly by Steve Ambrose (you might know him from doing bios of Eisenhower and works on the Vietnam war) but beyond the role of the Higgins landing craft (built locally in WWII, by the Michoud NASA plant), you will have little "nautical" in nature. At the Cabildo, there is an experimental U.S. Civil War submersible. If you are into fortifications, there are several Martello towers in St.Bernard; For McComb in east Orleans and approximately 75 road miles south, Fort Jackson. The fort is well restored, and the post Spanish American War gun placement is still extant - however, the fort is meant merely as a camping ground (and often rallying place for local mossback politicians) and little is done which would interest military historians. By way of note, the decline of New Orleans as a port city is evidenced by the fact that the NMU hall shut down about 15 years ago. A better bet is to go north to Baton Rouge. The USS Kidd and the associated museum in Baton Rouge are excellent. If you persevere, you can easily cajole the guides to let you roam into the engine rooms and steering flats, etc. Also, you will see some decent shipyard models of US Navy ships, many from the Naval Yard Museum in Washington, D.C. If you are rentin a vehicle, you can get the Kidd museum and perhaps a view of the state Capitol and see why Bismarck's quip as to sausage and politics is appropriate. Model shops? Honestly, poor choices. Hub Hobby is understocked and overpriced, especially on ships. The other hobby stores on the north side of the river (New Orleans proper, known as the "east bank") deal mainly with - trains! or have gone into race car driving. There is one store on the west bank called Hobbies West. The owner makes the model show circuit but has few ships. He might have some rarity in his non-display stock. Baton Rouge has about the same number of hobby shops as N.O!. Of course you might remember our experience with the USS Cabot/Dedalo. Why anyone thought that would be a starter given the indifference to the USS New Orleans is beyond me. Seems that naval architecture and related subjects are rather esoteric intellectual fancies for the tastes of New Orleanians. Respectfully, MJBurmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 36) From: "Satin, Michael N. (LNG-SHEP)" Subject: Big E at Midway A while ago there was a discussion here about depicting the Enterprise, CV-6, as she appeared at Midway in June, 1942. I remember that someone had said that he made the Tamiya 1/700 kit in this configuration. I would like to look into doing the Revell 1/480 kit this way and wonder if the guy who had done the Tamiya kit could contact me. I'd look in the archives for the information, but I'd hate to think how many hits I'd get if I searched on "Enterprise". Thanks!! Michael -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SMMLcon Infomation & posts SMML Convention and tour notices: http://www.mikedunn.freeserve.co.uk/smml/help/smml_con.html If your coming to the SMML convention on friday, we need to know which tour you planning to attend so that we can get an accurate head count for transportation. Contact John Frohock ca139johnf@aol.com and let him know which tour you plan on attending. If you are going on a tour, you need to be onboard the USS Salem no later than 10:00am on Friday May 5th. We will open the ship starting at 9:00am for those who would like a cup of coffee and some schoozing before departure. For those of you who are not going on either tour; the USS Salem will NOT be open to the public on friday (Crew will be on watch to repel boarders if provoked ) so please do not show-up at the ship on friday unless you are attending the tours. Check out Convention and tour info at: http://www.mikedunn.freeserve.co.uk/smml/help/smml_con.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Bill Gruner Subject: Need to Contact! We need to contact a customer, Robert Langill, concerning his last order, but don't have your e-mail or phone. Robert, if you see this, please e-mail or call me, and if anyone has his e-mail or phone #, let me know. Thanks, Bill Gruner http://www.pacificfront.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume