Subject: SMML VOL 885 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 00:39:22 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Seals-Models MIKASA 2: Re: KAL 007 3: Korean Airliner 4: Re: KAL 007 5: Re: Urban (Military) Legends 6: Re: Maru Special books 7: Spanish Naval Ensigns 8: Re: U-571 and PH the Movie 9: Re: Dutch sailors & AMPS 10: British Humo(u)r/Armo(u)r/Torpedoes 11: Re: "New Jersey Class" 12: Re: Gato/Balao subs 13: Re: Korean Airlines Flight 007 14: Urban Legends of the Sea 15: Re: HMAS Perth 16: Re: Gato sub 17: Re: Revell "Gato" 18: HMS Courageous 19: PH - Breaking News 20: Re: Kiev 21: Re: Korean Airliner 22: Canadian kits 23: Armor & Long Lance -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: WW2 IJN TECHNICAL BOOK for sale! 2: Re: Faces 2 conversion wanted -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Mitsuaki Kubota Subject: Seals-Models MIKASA Hi all, The long waited IJN MIKASA is released from Seales-Models label! Seals-Models has released early IJN destroyers, IJN pre-dreadnought YASHIMA and JMSDF observation ships in resin or metal, this MIKASA is their first release in injection molded kit. It is 1:700 waterline model and cost 3800 yen. People would feel it is expensive comparing other kits like Tamiya New Yamato, but reasonable than Pit-Road MIKASA in resin form. The main components of hull are molded in three pieces, port, starboard and deck. The beautiful parts are molded in light gray, and consist of four trees including two identical fitting parts trees. It is basically very good kit, but some minor modification will be required. The fitness of parts is generally good, but some putty will be required into seam lines between hull and deck. The hatches for broadside guns are molded onto hull parts in opened position, but lacks realities. Supporting bulges should be added under fore and after end of upper deck broadside gun citadel. Instruction sheet is written in only Japanese and has no English! I can't confirm Seals-Models will include English instruction sheet for exporting, but I wish so. Painting guide is incomplete. When MIKASA was completed, her funnels were painted in black with three white bands, but instruction doesn't show how many bands were painted. On the other hand, the kit has much value. Very crisp molds are equal to Pit-Road standards. Most kits represent deck planking in raised mold, but this kit represents in engraved lines. The broadside guns are molded with breech, and set inside of the hull. Beams are molded underside of boat deck and bridge wings. The details of midship upperdeck can be seen through boat stowages. All of these details make this kit impressive. Of course, proportionaly very good. The fitting parts trees include some extra parts like 120mm gun which were not fitted to MIKASA, this fitting sets would be very useful when you scratchbuild pre-dreadnought ships. Anyhow this kit is a MUST for pre-dreadnought guys. Best wishes, Mitsuaki Kubota -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: John_Impenna@hyperion.com Subject: Re: KAL 007 Chris Langtree writes: >> The Korean Airliner was shot down by either a US or Japanese missile definitely not Soviet fighters. The story most of the world knows is a pack of lies constructed to hide an intelligence operation that went drastically wrong. << Perhaps it was shot down by one of those indestructible ILLUSTRIOUS class carriers!!!!!!!! I hope this is a dry joke as Shane said, because I am still laughing about it. Especially since the Soviets ADMITTED at some point that it was a mistake on their part. If it's not a joke, please try to explain your rewriting of history!!!! John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Korean Airliner Hi all Well my post seems to have stirred up some controvesy. Briefly the facts are these. The current along the east coast of Japan flow northwards. The position given by the US government for the loss of the airliner means that for wreckage to be found on the coast of Hokkaido (where it was) it would had to have flowed southwards against the current. This is clearly impossible and as a result so is the official story. Note these are facts they are not speculation - once they are established then you can speculate. Other points worthy of consideration, no-one found the airliner in the area it was supposed to be according to the official story. The US secret services have made use of Korean airliners before (and a 707 was shot down on a spying mission), you had a US government with several unstable fanatics in postions of power (the Soviet government was disgusting but at least it wasn't talking about evil empires) who would stop at nothing to overthrow the Soviets. The Soviets had their own reasons for colluding with the US lies. Brun's book is a good starting point - unlike most people he seems to have done some genuine research and come up with a highly plausible explanation. But remember it all hinges on current flow and where the wreckage was actually found. Chris Langtree Hi gang, As interesting as this thread may be, it really is going too far off-topic. Please take this to private email or a more suitable forum. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: KAL 007 >> Were you involved in the operation? Isn't it still secret? How about some more details? << If he tells us, he'll have to kill us... ;^) John Snyder -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Bergschöld Pelle Subject: Re: Urban (Military) Legends >> Another I remember are those tracked subs the USSR alledgely used to spy on Norwegian (and other ?) ports. They would ride over the seabed into the harbour... I remember seeing a photo of caterpillar tracks on a muddy seabed, off course the photo's were blurred enough to be really anything. Anyone heard or knows of these? << Erwin. You're stepping right into the most infected of all infected swedish foreign policy items. The photo you are referring to is most probably taken in swedish inner territorial water just south of Stockholm. It is one of very few physical remnants of alleged foreign submarine activity along the swedish coast, and therefore also much debated. The last stir occurred just the other week when former US secretary of defence mr Caspar Weinburger in an interview stated that NATO submarines during the 80-es practised in swedish waters in accordance with local agreements on lower military level, this in conflict with the official swedish neutrality policy. As it turned out, it was more or less an intended misunderstanding by the swedish not-so-military-friendly journalist. Enclosed is an article that in short deals with the earlier intrusions. >> The rate of submarine incursions in Sweden before 1980 was at an "international frequency". The change to a new pattern of frequency was first noted 1980, Utö incident, and in Karlskrona restricted area 1981, U-137. Since then several large ASW-operations has taken place: Hårsfjärden(1982, 1983), Karlskrona(1984) and Töre(1987). Note that Hårsfjärden and Karlskrona is the Swedish navy's most important base area. The Hårsfjärden incursions turned out to involve both midget and conventional submarines. The Karlskrona incident brought proof of the use of divers in conjunction with midget submarines. The whole incident gave further information of the operational and tactics related to the matter. The Töre incident showed that the Gulf of Bothnia was not spared from exploration by submarines. It was assumed that foreign naval veassels could be prevented from penetrating the strait between the Swedish mainland and the Finnish island åland. Besides activity of divers and midget submarines there is evidence of sabotage actions. In Töre telecommunication equippement were damaged. In Hårsfjärden an attempt to open a closed passage locked off by sub-net was stopped by guards. There have been a couple of Commissions investigating this marine activity. The most recent one became official December 20th 1995. In this report several statements are made, amongst others the following: #The U-137 incursion in Gåsefjärden was deliberate and the submarine carried nuclear weapons. #The damage to military equippement indicates advanced planned sabotage actions against the Swedish defence. #Traces on the sea-bottom has been made by both tracked veassels and none-tracked veassels. #The length of the midget submarines at these occasions were estimated to around thirty meters. #The large number of optical sightings(4700 1981-94) supports the conclusion that foreign activity under water has occurred in Swedish waters. #That it is impossible to point out a specific country responsible for these actions. << I have also added a link to the International Naval Studies Group: Comments on the Summary of The Submarine Commission Report of December 20, 1995. http://www.topedge.com/panels/aircraft/sites/amraam/subcom.html Best Regards Pelle SWE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Maru Special books One last question. I just purchased one of these books via eBay so I guess I'll know the answer to this question in about a week. How good are these books as far general reference goes? Are they a good value for the money? I don't have a huge naval library, but what books I have are very useful to me after checking them out first. I just want to know how useful these books in general are for modeling. How do they compare for instance, to the Anatomy of the Ship series (which I consider to the best). Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Spanish Naval Ensigns Hello, I am working on the Naval ensigns and jacks of Spain now, and have a few questions. I know what the most of the ensigns looked like but I am not sure about the jacks. What jack was used before 1931? Did the Second Republic use the same jack? When was the current jack adopted? As I understand it, the ensign was changed between 1938 and 1945. I have an image of the 1945 ensign but do not know what was different before that time. Could someone let me know what the changes were? I have checked the Flags of the World web site and several other sources and these points were not clear. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Best regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Kenneth H. Goldman" Subject: Re: U-571 and PH the Movie Hoooo-boy........ Thank you, Jeffry. Now you all have heard from my timid, self-effacing, wall-flowerish (yeah right) scriptwriting partner. Despite the inflammatory manner in which Tom Cleaver presented his opinion about "U-571," the gist of it would appear to be pretty close to the mark. A neighbor, who worked with Michael Bay on another big-budget film said he'd be surprised if the guy knew the difference between a destroyer and a battleship and that Bay wouldn't care even if he did. Be assured that I and Tom got the details right in the WWII script we currently have under option. I'll tell you more if it makes it to the "green light" stage. Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER http://www.wman.com/~khgold/ Hi gang, Personally I don't care how accurate war movies are - it is Hollywood afterall. If I want accuracy, I'll watch documentaries. I prefer my movies to be watchable & entertaining, if they are relatively accurate then that's a bonus as far I'm concerned. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: peter samolinski Subject: Re: Dutch sailors & AMPS That was a dirty trick! Mentioning 11 nude Dutch sailors, and the link is only to a CNN article... Seriously, was at the Armor Modeling Preservation Society convention/contest this past weekend and was pleasantly surprised to see Iron Shipwright there! I only just passed on the Graf Spee, but my friend jumped all over Prinz Eugen. I didn't get the proprietor's name, but I believe he did all right for himself even tho' is was an armor modeller's deal. Hi, I supppose that would have been some dude by the name "Elmo Fudd" ;-)). or his partner Ted Paris. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Joel Labow Subject: British Humo(u)r/Armo(u)r/Torpedoes Dry British humor, eh.....I shall begin to plot my revenge! With regard to Derek's question about armor on contemporary vessels, the USN Forrestal and Constellation class CVA/CVs incorporated flight deck armor ranging from 2"-4" and a 3" belt as well as varying thicknesses of STS as part of their side defense systems. I can't find any specifics about the Enterprise/JFK/Nimitz classes other than the statement in Friedman that their armor distribution is comparable to the Forrestals. I can't find any details about the LPH/LHD/LHA classes. A 2.5" belt was considered for the Long Beach (CGN-9) but was rejected because of weight. I don't believe that any other USN post-WWII surface combatants incorporated armor I think that all will agree that the USN submarine/surface/airborne torpedoes were inferior to their Japanese "Long Lance" counterparts, but I am unaware of any serious USN efforts to copy that technology. For one thing, the IJN torpedoes were oxygen-fueled, a practice which the USN considered hazardous. For another, the Long Lances were ENORMOUS (there is a 24" L.L. on the grounds of the U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis and it is an awe-inspiring sight!). These weapons were arguably the principal weapon systems of the ships that carried them and said ships probably needed to be designed from the keel up to carry them. Finally, the USN began to get good results with it's submarine torpedoes, while primitive IJN damage control practices made their ships very vulnerable to dive bombing, hence there wasn't much reason to upgrade airborne torpedoes. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: AandMBlevins@gateway.net Subject: Re: "New Jersey Class" Re: In particular, Pavel's statement that the four battleships were of the "New Jersey Class". Any real battleship nut knows that they were of the IOWA Class, hence USS IOWA, BB-61; USS New Jersey, BB-62; USS MISSOURI, BB-63 and USS Wisconsin, BB-64. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Ed Grune Subject: Re: Gato/Balao subs Sean: If your dad is still alive - ask him if he remembers any of the sail cut downs that were made on his boat. Take some photocopies of drawings of Gato/Balao sails and ask him to sketch the changes. These are memories which we, as modelers are loosing, as your father's generation passes on. I've been in contact with my father's shipmates and have found them to be very informative and helpful.in providing the kind of information only a sailor who lived with the boat daily could provide. I hope that once you collect his information you will share it with us. Ed Mansfield,TX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Mike Settle Subject: Re: Korean Airlines Flight 007 >> Hi Joel & all the others who posted ;-), I think you'll find you've been the subject of some very dry British humour or at the very least that's the way I took it to be ;-). << But, Shane, the bad part is now that we've been told, we will all have to be killed. :-) Mike Settle I am not agent #1908 of the non-existent Lumber Cartel (tinlc)tm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Schiefet@cs.com Subject: Urban Legends of the Sea Are these also known as Sea Stories? What is the difference between a Fairy Tale and a Sea Story? A Fairy Tale starts out "Once upon a time" and a Sea Story starts out "Now this ain't no ****". Steve Singlar Pelham, NH ROTFLMAO Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Jeffon10@cs.com Subject: Re: HMAS Perth For Chris Langtree I can provide a xerox of your missing pages from the HMAS PERTH book, if you can provide a mailing address. (I don't have a scanner.) It looks like you're missing most of chapter 10 and the pictures. (They're pretty bad anyway.) PERTH is a fascinating ship. She was used for camouflage trials about two weeks before she was lost and probably sank in an unusual garb. During trials one side was overall blue-gray and the other bold stripes. The latter was not the double rainbow pattern featured in Airfix Magazine and elseware. Anybody have any info on a 1/350 WW 2 HMAS PERTH? I've heard of a 1/350 SYDNEY resin kit from Australia, but it could be the 1960s DDG patterened after the U.S. C.F.ADAMS Class. R Jeff Fenton Hi Jeff, IIRC, OzMods had plans for a 1/350 Modified Leander a few years ago, but nothing AFAIK has come of it. As for a 1/350 Charles F Adams DDG, Atlantic Models aka Peter Hall has plans to do one. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Gato sub >> The conning tower and hull came from Scale Shipyard. It's like building a Combat Models vac-form kit. You get the basic shapes and the rest is up to you, but with one difference. Scale Shipyard does give you some basic "necessities." My hull and conning tower came with some resin cast deck hatches, rudders, capstans, metal chocks, HR Models guns (very nice) and a cast metal anchor. The rest is up to you. The hull and conning tower halves were already stuck together saving me some work there also. << Ah, yes, have seen many of the Scale Shipyard's kits as R/C boats at the annual SubCommittee SubRegatta in Groton (which, by the way, is coming up at the end of July). Lot's of elbow grease and scratchbuilding on these kits. I've used HR fittings and guns on my Lionfish conversions (see one conversion to the Balao class USS Blenny with 3 photos under "Submarines" on the WarShips Page). Rusty - imagine after all the work you put into this thing that you would actually propel it through and under the water as an R/C sub! Do you know how many guys' delicate scratchbuilt features have not survived the first dive and surfacing? I do STRICTLY static display, but my hat is off to the R/C guys and their beautiful working models. Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Revell "Gato" >> I always offered to buildthe Revell WWII sub(under it's many reissues) but he has always said that it doesn't really look like his sub. << Hi Sean- I have done a number of conversions of the Lionfish to other Gato/Balao class subs. Take a look at: http://www.webenet.net/~ftoon/memory/f_memory.html Look under "Blenny model" (button on the left) for some photos of my latest conversion for a WWII SubVet. Best regards, Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "John Rule" Subject: HMS Courageous >> I am trying to add to my fleet in 1/700 the "Light Battlecruiser" H.M.S. Courageous in the as built configuration ( 1918 - before conversion to an aircraft carrier). I am having some difficulty in obtaining plans suitable for scratch building in the 1/700 scale. << There is a plan and profile of HMS Glorious to 1:1250 scale in Battleships and Battlecruisers 1905 to 1970 by Siegfried Breyer. It should be available at any large reference library. If you cannot find a copy email me off list and I'll send you a photocopy of said plan. John Rule -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: PH - Breaking News http://doit.starbulletin.com/breaking/FMPro?-db=breaking.fp3&-format=record%5fdetail.htm&-lay=web&-sortfield=cpriority&-sortfield=serial&-sortorder=descend&public=yes&-recid=33940&-find= Stunt aircraft crash during filming. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: Kiev Thanks Roland and Tom I have Conway's Fighting ships 1947-1995 and it lists the Kiev as being stricken in June 1993 and then cannibalized for spare parts to be used on her surviving sister ship Gorshkov (ex-Baku),a number of deals appeared between China and India for it but didn't go thru and was reportedly sold to a company in Korea for scrapping in 1994. I forgot that I had this book. You know I get the impression that the Soviet Navy was in the middle of metaphors say in aviation as they went from the Kiev class to the Kuznetzov class. The fall of communism delayed it. They probably would have began a response to President Reagan's 600 ships plan with new construction. FYI the company Martin Marietta doesn't use that name anymore their Lockheed Martin now. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: Korean Airliner C'mon, guys. Given a little thought, we'd all figure out that KAL 007 wouldn't have gone down if it had been fitted with an armored flight deck. Eugene -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Ian MacCorquodale" Subject: Canadian kits Hey Gang, found a new resin kit producer at the 2000 ship modellers show in Halifax, Nova Scotia on the weekend. He has an incredible 1/350 CPF. Anyway his particulars are attached for your information. Take note, the exchange rate on the Canadian dollar is very advantageous for our American Cousins. :-) Dont forget to tell em Ian sent ya! Cheers, and Happy modelling. Ian Mac's Naval Photography http://www.geocities.com/macrachael/ Scottish Clan Plaques http://clanconnections.bizland.com/main.html >> Hi Ian, I do have a list of kits that are Canadian and plan to expand. I do not have a web site as yet but hope to soon. Please pass on to all parties interested in RCN ships the list and my address, phone etc.....and thank you. Cheers, Fred RESIN KITS AVAILABLE 1/350 SCALE PRICES IN CANADIAN $ (NO TAX) Eagle Woodworking and Crafts Fred Bustard 36 Colgrove Ave Upper Sackville, N.S. B4E 3C1 Phone: (902) 865-4914 Fax: (902) 865-8387 Email: f.bustard@ns.sympatico.ca 4-004 EDMUND FITZGERALD $ 90.00 4-017 LIBERTY SHIP $210.00 4-027 FLOWER CLASS CORVETTE 1939 $ 78.00 4-029 FLOWER CLASS CORVETTE 1940 $ 78.00 4-032 TRIBAL CLASS DESTROYER $135.00 4-034 RIVER “H” CLASS DESTROYER $125.00 4-052 PC-461 PATROL CRAFT $ 35.00 4-059 OCEANGOING TUG $ 78.00 4-057 HARBOUR TUG LT45 $ 45.00 4-058 BROOKLYN TUG $ 45.00 4-061 PT BOAT $ 24.00 4-062 FUEL OIL TANKER $ 72.00 4-063 CPF CANADIAN PATROL FRIGATE $199.00 4-063 FLOWER CLASS CORVETTE IMPROVED $ 78.00 4-068 LCI 1-350 (Landing Craft Infantry) $ 48.00 4-074 TOWN CLASS DESTROYER $105.00 4-079 LCS/LCI SET $115.00 5-01 GERMAN SHIP DECALS $ 4.25 35036 GATO SUB $ 85.00 350-11 BALAO GUPPY SUB $ 69.00 35001 OBERON CLASS SUB $ 59.00 Other kits available << -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Tom Eisenhour Subject: Armor & Long Lance Greetings SMMLies, Tiger Wakefield wrote: >> 2) Given the lackluster performance of US Mk-14 torpedoes during WWII, was there any thought or study on adapting/modifying the design of Japanese Long-Lance to make a new model 21" torpedo? << I believe the 24" Long Lance was only used on destroyers and cruisers, not subs. And the prospects of getting BUORD to admit that a FOREIGN torpedo was superior to their own triple-flawed Mark 14? Not bloody likely when military careers are on the line! Regards, Tom Eisenhour Austin, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SMMLcon Infomation & posts SMML Convention and tour notices: http://www.mikedunn.freeserve.co.uk/smml/help/smml_con.html If your coming to the SMML convention on friday, we need to know which tour you planning to attend so that we can get an accurate head count for transportation. Contact John Frohock ca139johnf@aol.com and let him know which tour you plan on attending. If you are going on a tour, you need to be onboard the USS Salem no later than 10:00am on Friday May 5th. We will open the ship starting at 9:00am for those who would like a cup of coffee and some schoozing before departure. For those of you who are not going on either tour; the USS Salem will NOT be open to the public on friday (Crew will be on watch to repel boarders if provoked ) so please do not show-up at the ship on friday unless you are attending the tours. Check out Convention and tour info at: http://www.mikedunn.freeserve.co.uk/smml/help/smml_con.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: GrafSpee34@aol.com Subject: WW2 IJN TECHNICAL BOOK for sale! Hi I have put a WWII period book up for sale on eBay which documents bomb damage inflicted on Japanese naval vessels by US aircraft. It may be of interest to somebody on the list. Starts at one dollar, no reserve. The link is http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310710284 Also have other WWII period navy books and an officer's uniform too. Check 'em out and thanks for looking! Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Faces 2 conversion wanted Does anyone here have one of these Nichimo kits (unbuilt) they would like to sell? I am wanting to do a 1/350 conversion and it would come in handy. Please contact me off list. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume