Subject: SMML VOL 893 Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:14:41 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Lightship questions 2: Re: Lightships 3: Belknap, Philly Navy Yard and USS America 4: Re: Nantucket Lightships 5: Re: PT Boats 6: Re: Colour Scheme Type XX1 U-Boote 7: Re: Skysweeper 8: Re: Atlanta CL's 9: Re: Skysweeper 10: San Francisco tourist information 11: Lightships 12: ANZAC biscuits 13: On the slipway 14: Z class destroyers 15: LIGHTSHIPS 16: Leyte Gulf Problem 17: Lightships references 18: Re: Lightship questions 19: Re: Yamato etched brass 20: Thanks and Tiger 2 21: Re: US Frigate Constellation 22: Re: Moulding Parts 23: "buff" for USS Olympia, older US battleships 24: Re: Belknap 25: Re: Atlanta kits... 26: MAS Boats 27: Re: Lightship questions 28: Re: Source Material for a Skysweeper 29: Re: ATLANTA kits 30: Denny Steam Gunboats (among other things....) 31: Re: Skysweeper 32: Lightships and skysweepers 33: Re: OT: Skysweeper 34: Re: PT Boats 35: Re: OT: Skysweeper 36: Yamato etched brass + Jens H. Brandal" 37: Re: Lightship questions -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SMMLcon Infomation & posts 1: Re: SMMLiecon 2: Re: SMML Convention 3: Re: SMML Con -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: W.E.M. Telephone / Internet Problems -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Rod Dauteuil Subject: Re: Lightships Hi, A quick note regarding the Nantucket Lightship. This ship was recently berthed in Quincy Massachusetts. The State of Massachusetts very recently sold it at auction for $125,000.00. Can you guess who our fine State, in their infinite ingenuity, used for an "auctioneer"? You guessed it--Ebay! Rod. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: AandMBlevins@gateway.net Subject: Re: Lightships Rusty, For the ultimate in lightship explanations read "The Lightships of Cape Cod" by Frederic L. Thompson, published by Impressive Printing Co. of Portland, ME. It tells you everything about lightships in general and Cape Cod vessels in particular. It contains lots of photographs. Lightships are not listed by their location per se, but are given desisignations ie: Light Vessel (LV) Number 11. I know, I spent lots of time looking for information on the Boston lightship and was finally told I would have to have the Number. As for the location painted on the side, I believe it to be an aid to navigation system, probably carried over from when not all ships had radio or GPS. There was one LV with "RELIEF" lettered on its hull and, oddly enough, it was one that replaced LV's in for service or repair. Hope this helps out. Al Blevins -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "James Johnson" Subject: Belknap, Philly Navy Yard and USS America Thanks to Steve Allen for his answer to my question about USS Belknap. I forgot that it was the Kennedy that she collided with. When I went on active duty back in '67, I was processed at Philly. There were two sections to the base as I recall. There was the navy base, where I was for about 3 weeks, and then there was the navy yard. I think the base portion was closed some time ago, IIRC. While I was there, they had an air show. It was the 50th anniversary of naval air. They had a Phantom flying plus a number of WW2 planes. It was very impressive. The local branch of IPMS had a model display in one of the hangers. I had a grand time talking with the modelers there. We had to take a physical exam and for some reason known only to the Navy, the medical building was in the middle of the navy yard. We were put on a bus and driven to the building. Even though were were in the Navy, we weren't allowed to enter the yard without permission. The building was right next to a large dry dock and lo and behold, there was the USS New Jersey being readied to be re-commissioned. I was very impressed. Wish I had my camera with me. I was sent to the USS America from there. She was in the Med, so they flew me to Spain and Italy and then flew me on board in the COD, a C-1A Trader. Quite an experience. I was saddened to read that she had her mast removed. I would assume that she will be cut up and scrapped. When I went aboard, she was the newest carrier in the fleet. The JFK was still building at Newport News. Makes me feel my age to hear that she was mothballed and is now starting to loose parts. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Mark Shannon" Subject: Re: Nantucket Lightships Rusty White wrote: > A friend of mine asked me a question recently about the Nantucket lightship. One of which was, "what do they use these ships for?" That not being my area of expertise, I danced around the technical explanation and told him they were most likely moveable lighthouses on water. Was I right? Someone enlighten me to the function of these ships. And why do they have their port name (I assume that's what it is) so boldly painted on the side. I'm sure the real answer will be interesting. << They are "mobile" in much the same way that the average mobile home is. They are usually used when there is the need to mark a shoal or other navigation point with more than a bouy, but there is no means to build a lighthouse. As such they are moored more or less permanently, except for upkeep. I suppose there is some provision made for taking one into port for major overhaul on a regular basis, but otherwise, once it is in place, there it stands. The names are on the sides so prominently in order to aid in the navigation. The light signals are different flash sequences for each lighthouse, and if that fails, different foghorn sequences, and if the navigator is still not sure of which one it is, there is hope that they can at least read. Traditional lighthouses were painted in different combinations and styles of contrasting bands for the same reason. Mark Shannon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: PT191@aol.com Subject: Re: PT Boats Ken Perry - Look in John Lambert's EXCELLENT ALLIED COASTAL FORCES VOL. II. It'll help you. Also, my PT BOATS IN ACTION will also help you. T. Garth Connelly -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Kelvin Mok" Subject: Re: Colour Scheme Type XX1 U-Boote I have dug up my old incomplete Revell 1:144 U 2518 plastic model to finish it. The instruction's colour scheme says grey (grau 57) topsides and basalt grey (basaltgrau 77) below the waterline. All the colour illustrations in books show them a light grey or white overall and this is the colour scheme I like - looks sleek and modern. What is the correct colour scheme? What is the colour of the decking, this being wood colour in other U-boote types? Kelvin Mok -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Skysweeper Derek, My memory tells me that Renwal produced a kit of this gun way back when. As for pix, there is a Skysweeper in Ely, Nevada, sitting outside the Veteran's Hall alongside an M-4 Sherman. I have some photos of the gun that I could scan for you, but you'll have to be patient while I try to find them. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys http://www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "FCR" Subject: Re: Atlanta CL's Hello Keith and List >> Would someone please tell me what would be the better injection moulded kits of the Atlanta class CL's? TIA << I believe that the Pit-Road/Skywave model (1/700) is still the best, at least in plastic. They have at least the Atlanta, San Diego and Oakland. I am currently building the Atlanta and already have built the San Diego. They are fine models only with some difficulties in the cement junctions of the hull and structures. Still they have superb structures details. I am still waiting for the Édouard photo-etch set for this class to work more in the model. There is also the problem for the 5'' gun barrels that aren't closed to reality, in Atlanta I am joining the Skywave turret with the Hasegawa's 5'' barrels from other USN warships. There are other small defects but aren't quite important because with a little work you can solve them. This model is quite superior to the Matchbox model, they don't have nothing in common besides the names. Hope this helps. Happy Modeling. Filipe C. Ramires Lisboa, PORTUGAL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: BECJPARKER@aol.com Subject: Re: Skysweeper Renwall did a fairly good skysweep back in the late 50's early 60's that has been released several times. You should be able to find a copy of. It was in 1/32 scale. Try APC Hobbies, they are on the net . What you need for reference is a -10 and -20 tech manual for the piece. If you live near an army base try their library they may have some old copies. If not you may try the Ordnance Museum at Aberdeen proving grounds MD. They should have a copy of the tech manuals and you may get them to make a copy of it for you. They also have a gun in their collection. You may also try AMPS the Armor Model Preservation Society for info also, they are also on the net . You can also get an e-mail address for the Ordnance Museum on their web site. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Dave Swindell Subject: San Francisco tourist information Hi guys'n'gals, I'm flying into San Francisco next Monday morning and all being well should have the afternoon for some touristy stuff. Could anyone local point me in the direction of:- A: any good model shops in the downtown areas, or in Oakland. B: where the Jeremaih O'Brien is currently located and if she is likely to be open for viewing. C: any other attractions of a nautical nature easily accessible by public transport or taxi from the downtown area. Thanks in advance, Dave Swindell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Ken Subject: Lightships Lightships in the USA were always manned vessels placed in dangerous locations that did not allow the construction of fixed beacons, i.e., lighthouses. The original lightships were sail powered, evolving into steam and diesel power as the technology allowed. They maintained a fixed location (within the scope of their mooring anchors) and were identified as navigational aids on charts. Unique names identified the vessels, like NANTUCKET, CROSS RIP, POLLOCKS RIP, etc. Again, in the USA, when these powered vessels were removed from their stations for maintenance, a substitute vessel took their place. These temporary substitutes were painted RELIEF, indicating to navigators that the named vessel they expected to see was not in place. Occasionally, when a conventional lighthouse was out of commission at a particularly important location, a lightship was brought in to mark the place while the shore-based light was repaired. See, for example, the history of Minot's light off the Massachusetts coast. This was nasty, dangerous and supremely boring duty. The early lightships had very poor seakeeping qualities, and were (and to the end) small vessels. Many were lost in storms, some were run down. I believe that all of the US lightships have been replaced by so-called Texas Towers, a technology from the off-shore oil industry. Incidentally, lightships in Great Britian, known as Trinity House lightships from the headquarters of their administrative agency, were unpowered, requiring a tow to their assigned stations. A good start to lightship information can be found at http://www.tiac.net/users/buster/shiningsea/lightships.html For models, lightships are not easy to find. Revel did a Trinity House vessel years ago, and even if you can find one, the mold quality is poor. Bluejacket Ship Crafters has just issued a NANTUCKET that has been well reviewed in SIS. A few plans are available for scratch builders. I've often wondered why more of these really interesting vessels are not available. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Shane Weier Subject: ANZAC biscuits Shane ! How could you ! >> There sure is. Check out Vol 524 for Mistress Lorna's recipe for ANZAC cookies, several SMMLies have already used it & were very happy with it. Maybe some SMMLie can cook some up for SMMLcon ;-). Shane << ANZAC *cookies* indeed. 62000 ANZACS rolled in their graves. As far as they were concerned "cookie" was the name of a lady of ill repute in London. Anzac *biscuit* please! Shane (the older) Hi gang, Shane is of course correct, the correct term is ANZAC Biscuits. My apologies. Shane - the Younger -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Jens H. Brandal" Subject: On the slipway Evert-Jan; That's an excellent idea and that Bismarck model will be a real stunner when it's finished. Someone once said that a half built vac-form will impress people with your skills. A finished vac-form looks like just another model. The amount of work that goes into this Bismarck is clearly a labour of love. Hope to see more images as the project continues. Jens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Shane Weier Subject: Z class destroyers Shane (the younger) says >> Check out my Shiplist on the APMA site for some refs on the Z class DDs & Kumano. I can especially recommend Dan Jones articles in PSM on the Z Class DD. I can also highly recommend GMM's 1/700 German WW2 Naval set, it has all the parts required to make the Z Class a very nice boat, along with other stuff on there, so you can do some more practise, before you tackle your braille scale dream ;-). << That has the Tamiya Z class covered. I also have the Heller, and after that swipe at my Braille scale requirements I may build it instead. I *think* WEM do a generic 1:400 Kriegsmarine set - would this be usefull? >> As for "amateurish competition" - give me a break - I've seen your Brisfit ;-þ << Yeah, but it ain't a boat. Aside from last years little effort I hadn't built a ship since about 25 years ago. General skills don't scare me a bit, but I lack experience to tell me what the best build sequence is, and good books and good advice aside all models and all modellers are different - I need to personally "get the hang of it" Shane (going to the optometrist tomorrow. New glasses so I can see again :-) Bifocals :-( ) Hi Shane, Sorry I can't help you much with the Heller kit, except to say that Dan Jones articles in PSM would apply there as well. Mistress Lorna says, the best building sequences always start with opening the box ;-). Regards, Shane - the Younger -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: URUDOFSKY@aol.com Subject: LIGHTSHIPS Lightships were indeed floating lighthouses. Lightships were anchored and manned at stations that marked areas of hazards to navigation where lighthouses could not be built, and where large buoys were insufficient. They are mostly museum ships now. They have all been replaced by Texas tower platforms (offshore oil rig devices), at least in the USA. The names on their sides did not designate their home ports, but referred to their locations on station. Thus, NANTUCKET (now in Boston) marked the shoal near Cape Cod; CHESAPEAKE marked the entrance to the Chesapeake Bay. They had interesting names also, e.g., FRYING PAN (now in New York City, I think) marked the Frying Pan Shoals at Cape Fear, North Carolina; however, the name RELIEF (I think also in NYC now) refers to a relief lightship that was on temporary station while repairs were made to the other one. In England you had St. GOWAN, SHAMBLES, SUNK , etc., and in Germany there were BORKUM RIFF, ELBE 1, ELBE 2, ARUMBANK, etc. The German "Feuerschiffe" are also museums, restaurants, and wedding chapels now (not to be confused in translation with the Royal Navy's fearsome "fire ships" during the Napoleonic Wars!!!!!). The names were painted on the sides for visibility of identification. There is a nice model assortment of 1:1200/1250 lightships made by Triang, Pharos, and Hansa. BORKUM RIFF is available as a cardboard model at the 1:250 scale (21.5 cm LOA) for about DM 10.00 (www.scheuer-struever.de). There are probably other large model kits that I am not aware of. These small ships (at most 30-50 m LOA) were uniquely designed to ride out hurricanes at anchor, but not all survived mother nature onslaught. The men who manned them must have been endowed with extreme "intestinal fortitude" to take the constant pounding and yawing for two weeks at a time. I wonder, if there are any books out there about the lightships and the men who served on them? Ulrich Rudofsky -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Don Carner" Subject: Leyte Gulf Problem Greetings! I need assistance from anyone that was at Leyte Gulf and witnessed 2 events that I am attempting to re-create in diorama fashion. The 1st involves a kamikaze attack upon CA-38, San Francisco. Details are sketchy but I believe that an unknown destroyer shot down this plane while coming in very low to avoid shell fire. The crew of this destroyer plucked the reluctant Japanese pilot out of the drink and prevented him from taking his own life. This crew evidently has their annual reunion in Pigeon Forge, KY. It is also my belief that the rescued Japanese pilot regularly attends these reunions. I would very much like to contact any crew member that could verify this story. I am trying to learn the type of aircraft and the destroyer's name to plan this project. My second query also relates to the San Fran. During a lull in the numerous air attacks at Leyte, my Dad was stealing a quick nap when he was suddenly thrown across the berthing compartment. Evidently, the Japanese were using suicide motor-launches and speeding from around the rear of the island to attack the anchored ships. This particular motorboat, loaded to the gunwales with high explosives, was making a beeline for the San Fran. Once again, the gunners evidently could not bring their guns to bear. It eventually it fell to an LCI, delivering provisions and/or other materials around the anchorage, to bring her 20mm into action, destroying the launch a mere 100 feet or so from CA-38's waterline. The ensuing explosion violently rocked the cruiser. I want to know what manner of motor launch this may have been. Since my Dad was below decks, he only knows the aftermath and none of the details! Anyone help me out here? It's a near-impossibility, but nothing ventured... Regards, Don Carner -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: URUDOFSKY@aol.com Subject: Lightships references Arumbank/Deutsche Bucht (German Bay) has a nice web page: www.arumbank.de also Elbe 1: www.elbe1.de. www.nwseaport.org/swiftsure www.maritimeman.com/lightships Greetings from the Hudson River Shore' Ulrich Rudofsky -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Erhardtsen" Subject: Re: Lightship questions >> A friend of mine asked me a question recently about the Nantucket lightship. One of which was, "what do they use these ships for?" That not being my area of expertise, I danced around the technical explanation and told him they were most likely moveable lighthouses on water. Was I right? Someone enlighten me to the function of these ships. And why do they have their port name (I assume that's what it is) so boldly painted on the side. I'm sure the real answer will be interesting. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" Hi Rusty, Yup, afaik, your answer is correct. But iirc, they aren't movable as such, they are usually moored in the one spot & are in some if not all cases un-manned. As for why their name is in large letters, got no idea of the reason for that. Shane - who's most probably wrong again!! ;-) << Years back Frog made the Trinity House lightship "Sout Goodwin" - it had no screw = no engine Lightship was moored and manned. Waters around Europe can be very low, with less than 15 m. in midt ocean. With todays satelite navigation this is no problem, but before that, you needet something to tell you your position. 10-15 meter deep warter in the middle of the sea, was too deep to build a lighthouse - so instead you moored a lightship. Function of these ships? - Warning and navigation. The name in large letters? - To tell you your position of course. Erik Erhardtsen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Re: Yamato etched brass Jens.. WOW! Like Shane said, great post, and one that will be very useful (considering I've got the Tamiya Yamato sitting off to my side right at the moment). Go Navy! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Thanks and Tiger 2 I want to take a moment to thank everyone who has contacted me offlist about my inquires regarding the F-11 Tiger, Stripping Paint, and Skysweeper. I really appreciate all of you taking the time out to contact me. I've got two more questions about the F11-F I'm hoping someone here can help me out with (and I promise I'll drop the subject at this point). The Minicraft release of the F11-F Tiger kit came with decals for VF-21, while the newer Hasegawa releases come with decals for VF-33 (Sluggers/Starfighters). My hope is to find the VF-21 decals from an aftermarket source. My question isn't where to find those, but rather - did VF-21 have a squadron name and what was it's callsign I assumed the VF-21 that flew the Tiger was the same VF-21 (Freelancers) that later flew F-4Ns and F-14s. An entry at the Tomcat Alley site though states >> The squadron today known as VF-21 was first established in 1944 as VF-81, acquiring it's present designation in 1959, thus becoming the second US Navy squadron to be designated VF-21. << The decals included in the Tiger kit for VF-21 were high-vis yellow and black markings including a tigershark mouth on the nose -- which are nothing like the Freelancer markings). This is what got me wondering about this. I downloaded the PDF file on VF squadron lineage from NavHistory, but my Amiga's pdf viewer isn't compatable with the newer Adobe formats. Lastly, Paul Boyer's "F-7D" Cutlass in the April FSM has inspired me to work up a similar but different hypothetical 70s era "interim lightwight fighter" model of the Tiger. Yes, I am familar with the F11F-1F Super Tiger, but I don't want to use that variant as a basis for this model. I don't want to go into specifics here, but if anyone's willing to discuss this offlist, please get in contact with me. Go Navy! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: louellet@uism.bu.edu Subject: Re: US Frigate Constellation Robert OConnor wrote: >> I need a little help from one or two of you experts in the field of wooden ships. If any of you can help with the history of the frigate USS Constellation, please contact me privately. I am trying to track and authenticate an alleged artifact from the old girl. Any help would be appreciated. << Bob, check out the following link: http://www.hazegray.org/faq/smn8.htm#H3 The frigate CONSTELLATION was in service from 1797 to 1852, when she was broken up. From 1853-1855 a new sloop-of-war named Constellation was built. This is the ship that is in Baltimore today. Old Navy documents suggested it was really the same ship, but that is not the case. Some timber from the frigate may have been used in building the sloop, to trick the paper pushers into thinking that she was 'repaired' instead of building a completely new ship as was the case. So, if your artifact dates from 1797 to 1852 it may be from the frigate, if it is from 1855 onward it may be from the sloop-of-war. Larry Ouellette Volunteer, USS Salem (CA 139) U. S. Naval & Shipbuilding Museum Quincy, Massachusetts, USA http://www.uss-salem.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Tim Perry" Subject: Re: Moulding Parts Hi All, A couple of useful web sites for anyone in the UK wanting to do some casting, www.axson.com www.techsil.co.uk The Axson range of materials is European in origin, but the UK distributors are Amber Composites Ltd, at www.ambercomposites.co.uk . The Techsil site has some excellent explanations of what materials are suitable for which application, as well as some chemistry for background reading! If anyone does approach these concerns regarding supplies, remember they are set up to supply industry, and might have minimum quantities. I have used both Axson and Techsil materials in my day job and have found them to be excellent quality. Follow links to Rapid Prototyping, PU Fastcast materials, and RTV/Silicone mould materials. Regarding casting without access to a vacuum chamber, try arranging the parts on a sprue ( 1/4 inch square acrylic from EMA is just right) with the parts ABOVE the sprue. Attach via short feeds of thinner rod or strip material. Angle the parts so they will fill to a point. In otherwords, something like a locker or turret, have a corner facing upwards, not a flat end or side. Guns, mount so that the barrel is vertical, muzzle uppermost. Mount in a box and pour on the RTV. When cured, cut the block apart to the masters and sprue, and remove them. Some of the RTVs are clear, (or very nearly clear) so it is easy to see the part as you cut towards it. Wiggle the blade as you go, so the mould surface is irregular, it will then lock back in the same place. Cut (if you have not already moulded in) a feed channel to the sprue, and from the high points of the part cavities, cut a FINE v-groove in the face of one half of your mould, upward to break out on the top surface of your mould block. Locate the mould halves together, tape together with Sellotape (Don't know what equivilent product in the USA is, but Billy Conelly is fond of telling us in Australia it is called Durex....Pause for gales of laughter from Brits..) Mix and pour your Fastcast resin, taking care not to get bubbles into the feed. The resin will flood into the sprue, then UP into the cavities, driving the air out ahead, and then up the v grooves.You will know when the cavities are full, as the resin will bloop up out of the v grooves. Wait for it to cure, (warm mould, put in warm oven (40 C, about 100 F) will improve cure rate and toughness of castings) Pull mould carefully apart, remove castings. Repeat. You should get 20 to 40 shots, depending on the complexity of the parts. Finally, LEAP with joy at your new-found independence from the kit manufacturers! Now, make what you want, when you want, in the quantities you want, in the scale you want! CRY FREEDOM!! Sorry, got a bit carried away there... Tim Perry (who has nearly finished his 1/285th LCT 4, ask Rob Lockie if you don't belive me!!) Hi Tim, Sorry to dissappoint you mate, but Connelly has his wires mixed up, we call that stuff cellotape NOT Durex - I'd sure as hell remember something like that ;->. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Sean Obrien" Subject: "buff" for USS Olympia, older US battleships Is there a paticular color of paint that can be used for buff on the USS Olympia and USS Oregon? Instructions call for "buff" but I can't find a paint going by this name. Is it a tan or brown? Also I've seen two different photoetch sets for these two kits(Revell and Glencoe). Any suggestions on which ones to get? Another thing I am dying to know... Are there any kits or plans out there for any of the pre WW 1 US battleships, like the South Carolina and Michigan or pre-dreadnaughts? There's something about the earlier ships. Thanks, Sean O'Brien Columbus,Ohio -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: SCALSHPYRD@aol.com Subject: Re: Belknap Hi Steve: Yes, I am aware of the difference in length between the Belknap and Leahy class ships, my reference was to the length of the knuckle built into the forward hull at the level of the second deck. If somone were viewing these ships in their current state of undress (lacking their superstructurs) about the only way to visually see a difference would be the shape of the stem. When one is outside the yard looking in at a distance, these ships would appear virtually alike, depending on the angle the ships are presented. Lee Upshaw -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Re: Atlanta kits... Keith.. This was discussed in Vol 782, but the concensus is the Skywave Atlanta/San Diego kit is the best one available. I have the Dragon reissue of this kit, and although I haven't built it yet, it compares favorably to the ship. Revell-Germany also reissued the kit as the San Juan, along with the later Oakland and Flint (which differ from the early ships). Be aware though, even though these are the best available, doesn't mean no-mods needed. The 5/38 gunhouses are too tall (and lack the sight hoods), the 5-in gun barrels are too thick, the stacks aren't quite right, the hull scales out to be a tad too short, the bow doesn't have quite the right shape (the sheer isn't fine enough because the knuckle is a bit too pronounced), it has an armored belt more comparable to a battlewagon than a light AA cruiser, there are no 1.1's included if you want to build an Atlanta or Juneau (yet it doesn't have the open bridges the ships had by the time the 1.1 guns were replaced with 40mms)...and this is just what I can think of off the bat (and briefly comparing the model with the drawings in Friedman's US Cruisers). Some of these faults can be rectified by getting a couple of the second Skywave US weapon sets (as they include more accurate parts). Go Navy! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: "Bruce Simard" Subject: MAS Boats Gents; Since we've been on the subject of PT Boats lately, does anyone know of any decent plans for the Italian MAS Boats ? Or any decent information on their operations ? Also anyone know of any 1/350th kits of the German E-boats? Jon, sounds right up your ally! TIA..Bruce. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: Lightship questions Hi Rusty Concerning your question on light ships. Yes, they are mobile light houses and would be positioned near coastlines where coastal commerce or international commerce would travel by. Their names came from the area they served in and if they got moved the name changed. They used 3 pieces of equipment. On their masts were two bright high powered in candle power lamps, a fog horn, and if the fog horn failed they would clang a large ships bell that's 4 ft high. Supposedly in WW2 they were taken off this duty as used as examination ships at ports for arriving ships. They are small and had a crew of 10-14 men. Some have become museums today. Craig -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: TPrice1169@aol.com Subject: Re: Source Material for a Skysweeper Derek - Have you contacted the US National Archives? They have a web page and if you want you can e-mail them ... does this help? tony price sea and sea model ships -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29) From: Rick Heinbaugh Subject: Re: ATLANTA kits >> Would someone please tell me what would be the better injection moulded kits of the Atlanta class CL's? TIA << As far as I can tell, you only have two and a half choices- 1) Matchbox, 2)Skywave, or 2.5) Revell/Dragon/DML Skywave re-pop that has a hull bottom. Disregard the thought of the Matchbox kit - it is crude and heavy-handed. If you want a full-hull model, then option 2.5 gives you a VERY nice hull bottom. The only serious problem with the Skywave ATLANTA/JUNEAU/RENO/et al kit (opotions 2 & 2.5) is the armor belt, molded as a separate piece. Some folks say it extends too far aft; I say it sticks out too much from the hull sides. It sticks out nearly 1mm from the hull side, and we KNOW the real ship didn't have an armor belt (700/25.4)= ~28" from the side. I filed the belt piece down to nearly flush with the side of the hull. A lesser problem is the twin 5" gun mounts - you may not be delighted with the barrel thickness or gunhouse shape. These were from Skywave's first U.S. weapons sprue. Skywave's second U.S. weapons set is a nice augment for the kit, the 5" guns are nicer and it has jewel-like quad 1.1" mounts. Round it out with one of the photo-etch sets available for this kit (from Eduard) or generic US cruiser/destroyer sets from GMM, Tom's or Flagship, and you've got a great looking model. (probably even better if you have the nerve to camouflage it, but I wouldn't know about that). Good luck, Rick Heinbaugh Seattle, WA (just 100 miles to the south of you) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 30) From: d gregory Subject: Denny Steam Gunboats (among other things....) Can anyone point me to a good source of plans for the Denny SGBs? (Grey Goose, Grey Shark, Grey Fox, etc.) The only plans I can find are in Foch's Book "Fast Fighting Boats" and these are much to wide. Also, any source of information on the wide variation of armament configurations would be helpful. Also, I am looking for good photos/plans for the Aphis Class British River Gunboats that were uses in the Med in WW2. Last and probably least, the RN used two French MTBs (VTB 11 & 12) as MGB 98 and 99. Does anyone have a picture or know what they were armed with? I would think any "big" gun (20mm?) would be mounted in front of the bridge as these boats had their little superstructures aft. That's all. I also saw "U-571" and loved it. Did anyone notice the bow of "S-33" looked like a real S-boat. It also looked like it had a US 3"/50 while the real U-boat had the 3.5". The Marine officer even had a Reising .45 cal SMG, a weapon only used by the Marines. I think they should have eased up on the turrets on the minesweeper and called it a German M-class minesweeper. It was nice to see distance shots using REAL SHIPS, not models in a pool! Thanks! Dave Gregory The P.T Dockyard Hi Dave, The following is from my Shiplist on the APMA site(please note the url will be changing very soon for the Shiplist): RN steam gun boats WWII Airfix Magazine Feb 1978 pp 326 article by John Lambert. HMS Grey Goose Military Modelling Jan 1975 pp 35 article Also, I'd assume Allied Coastal Forces by Al Ross & John Lambert could very well cover them as well (have yet to pick it up). Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 31) From: CaptainOD@aol.com Subject: Re: Skysweeper Re Derek Wakefield and antiaircraft gun. OT but go to http://www.mil-mod.nl/ website concerning Renwal 1/32 Skysweeper and related information. Bob O'Donovan Yes, Wim's site is very good. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 32) From: "Melea/Mike Maynard" Subject: Lightships and skysweepers "The only difference between prison and a lightship is that the prison can't sink." I served aboard the dreaded Nantucket light vessel in the mid 1970's and I can say without a doubt it was the worst tour of duty I ever pulled in 30 years of Coast Guard service. Anchored 63 miles south of Nantucket Island we marked the approaches to the New York shipping lane and Nantucket shoals. Frequent near misses with Soviet fish processing ships had us go to abandon ship for real at all hours(Our diminutive ship was 133 feet in length vs 500-600 foot "Ruskie" ships.) With the legacy of being run down and lost with all hands (like lightship 504 by the Liner Olympic), the possibility of collision was a real concern. One night we went to abandon ship only to have the "contact" disappear at 300 yards. A nuke sub running on the surface? We'll never know... Add to this the days of fog and the endless booming of our diaphone fog signal (inspectors tested the decibel levels one time and reported the crew would suffer hearing loss at some later date!) And of course the winter storms, waves powerful enough to cause the ship to drag it's 2,000 lb mushroom anchor and put us 3 miles off station. Unlike prison we could not receive commercial radio signals or television reception, civilization was just too far away. We did eat well though, my reefer flats had enough capacity for "good Chow" for the entire time on station. Regarding the naming of lightships... remember that lightships were visual "AIDS TO NAVIGATION", i.e. they wore red paint to be seen in good weather and named for the benefit of the passing ship so their navigator could check his chart(road map for you land lubbers) and by taking a visual bearing on said lightship, plot the progress of his ship. The name painted on the Lightship could denote a navigation hazard (Brenton reef, Colombia River bar, Vineyard Sound) or could indicate a point of nearby land (Boston LS, Portland LS, San Francisco LS). To keep it all straight, all lightships were assigned a permanent hull number(not displayed on bow like a warship or cutter) so over it's lifetime it may be re-assigned to another point along the coast with a new name. Whew!, I hope that answers your question(s) Some SMMLies bemoan the possible loss of important naval vessels to the knackers yard. The Nantucket, after being raped and abused by the state government of Massachusetts, showed it's appreciation by putting the proud little ship up for bid on Ebay...So much for historical preservation of things nautical. Derek the Tiger... Renwal made a model of the Skysweeper in the late 1950's in 1/35th I think. You can pick one up on Ebay for around 50-70 Yankee pesos. Contact "B and L Collectibles" at 413 527-5788. They have a Service manual for the 75mm AA gun, 1956 Skysweeper, item #WTM8014. "A collision at sea can ruin your whole day." Mike M Oh yeah, one more thought on the subject of my beloved lightship. An old whaling captain from New Bedford was asked by the newspaper what the loneliest thing he ever saw in his whaling days. "Well", he replied "Two things. A Polar bear on an ice floe and the other, the NANTUCKET LIGHTSHIP. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 33) From: eddp Subject: Re: OT: Skysweeper >> I'm also curious if anyone knows if anyone ever produced a model of this beast. I know there was a toy of it made back in the 50's or 60's that fired BB's (seen on ebay once for a ridiculously high price), but I've never seen a true model of it (probably not surprising given how historically insignificant the piece is). << Derek, The M-51 75mm AAA gun "Skysweeper" was adopted for service in the early '50s, and was withdrawn in the early '70s. Development began in 1944 with the development of the proximity fuze. Removing the need for fuze cutting permitted a weapon with an automatic loading system. 75mm was chosen as the smallest shell that could carry the proximity fuze and a useful explosive charge (I believe 40mm were fitted with the fuse by war's end, but I don't know if they carried a charge as well.) The weapon consisted of the gun, loading system, radar, optical director and fire control system; all on a single mount. The gun was built at the Watervliet Aresenal, and was ready by Jan. 1945, but the mount was delayed until summer. Troubles with low muzzle velocity and development of the radar/predictor device held final approval until 1951. The M-5had a muzzle velocity of 2,805 ft/sec. (3,002 ft/sec was the target) and had a rate of fire of 45 rounds per minute. (Data from "The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Artillery" by Ian Hogg. $10 at a gun show!) Anyway, Renwal had a 1:32 scale model "Skysweeper" in their armor range, though that was many years ago. Edd Pflum -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 34) From: eddp Subject: Re: PT Boats >> I am building a 1/32 Elco 80 PT boat. I'm wondering where I can find good detail pics of control panels, masts, exhausts, bottom side, etc, hopefully of later models. This will be R/C equipped. What size props should I be using, are they couter-rotating, how many blades? Thanks. << Hi Ken, You say you are building, but I hope you are not basing your model on the Lindburg kit. The best hulls I have seen are from Microglass. http://www.modelersboatyard.com/microglass/index.html They have 77 and 80 foot Elco and 78 Higgins hulls, as well as many other fine 1:32 hulls. They sell only the bare hull, but a good model from the Lindburg kit would require all new upperworks anyway (been there, done that, got the T-shirt). Al Ross at Coastal Forces has plans in 1:32 for several Elco boats, as well as drawings of weapons, like the Bofors 40mm "Army" mount and the torpedo tubes. Al also had a photoetch set with a bunch of details (deadlight frames!), but I don't know if these are still available. H&R Products http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~hracct/index.html has 20mm, 37mm and 40mm guns, roll-off racks and basic 50cal. guns. Some of the parts from the Lindburg kit (cowl vents, some torp. tube parts) can be used, but not enough to justify the cost of a kit, if you don't already have one. The 20mm can make up nicely with some rebuilding, if making an early boat. Elco 80s had three, three-bladed propellers, and three rudders. For an operating boat, the rudders a awfully small, as are the props. I expect it would be hard to achieve scale speed with strictly scale props. Graupner's HydroSpeed range had two-bladed racing props that fit 3mm shafts. I would use three direct drive Mabuchi 380 size motors (Graupner Speed 400 6v. airplane motors would work well, I think) wired in series with 18 Sanyo 2000SRC Nicads and a suitable speed control (Astro Flite has a new boat controller). I ran a modified Lindburg hull on two Mabuchi 540s, Lindburg rudders (2), and Robbe props the same size as the Lindburg ones (35mm?). A gel-cell made it heavy, but it still ran at scale speed (just like the scenes in "They Were Expendable") for about 10-15 minutes. Today we can do it lighter. (BTW, the PTs in "TWE" are Elco 80s and Huckins --the forgotten PT-- so they can be used as references. The PT's in "PT109" are copies based on "Nasty"-style hulls, and are not reliable.) For references, there was an article on the restored PT (in Virginia) a few issues back in "Scale Ship Modeler", and John Lambert and Al Ross' "Coastal Forces: Volume 2" is still listed as available new on Bookfinders http://www.bookfinder.com/ "United States PT-Boats of World War II - In Action" by Frank Johnson has some good close-up pictures of fittings and weapons, while "American PT Boats in World War II" by Victor Chun reproduces US Navy drawings and manual photos. Neither of these are in print, but may be on Bookfinders. Good Luck, Edd Pflum -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 35) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Re: OT: Skysweeper >> I'm also curious if anyone knows if anyone ever produced a model of this beast. I know there was a toy of it made back in the 50's or 60's that fired BB's (seen on ebay once for a ridiculously high price), but I've never seen a true model of it (probably not surprising given how historically insignificant the piece is). << Hi; I very vaguely recall this kit from the late 50`s or early 60`s. I can see it in my mind but do not recall the manufacturer. I recall putting it on the shell with a HAWK launcher, a BTR 50, and a USS ARIZONA? Funny part here is that I was a medic at a HAWK battery in Nam (1968) and wondered why they used such old missles. They are still in use 30+ years later. Chuck Duggie WoodenWalls Listmeister -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 36) From: Peter Nikolopoulos Subject: Yamato etched brass + Jens H. Brandal" Dear Jens, Thank you for your excellent ,detailed information on the etched extras for the Tamiya 1/350 " Yamato" . I lived in Sweden 1992-1998 and will be going back soon to live. My next project is the " WASA". I hope I can find a scale that is large yet does not compromise detail . I had the pleasure of seeing the restoration of the actual ship which sank in Stockholm harbour. Hej San ...From Sydney, Australia Peter -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 37) From: James Corley Subject: Re: Lightship questions >> A friend of mine asked me a question recently about the Nantucket lightship. One of which was, "what do they use these ships for?" That not being my area of expertise, I danced around the technical explanation and told him they were most likely moveable lighthouses on water. Was I right? Someone enlighten me to the function of these ships. And why do they have their port name (I assume that's what it is) so boldly painted on the side. I'm sure the real answer will be interesting. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/  "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" Hi Rusty, Yup, afaik, your answer is correct. But iirc, they aren't movable as such, they are usually moored in the one spot & are in some if not all cases un-manned. As for why their name is in large letters, got no idea of the reason for that. Shane - who's most probably wrong again!! ;-) << Well, you are both sorta right. In the case of the lightship Nantucket, she serves as a nav point for the sea lane entrance from the east. All transoceanic shipping destined for New York is supposed to transit this station and line up for harbor approach, much like what we used in air traffic control. A 1948 convention declared that outbound ships were supposed to pass the ship 20 miles south, while inbound ships pass 20 mile north. The disregarding of this convention by nonsignator, and the subsequent lack of enforcement by US maritime officials is why the Stockholm rammed the Andrea Doria as neither Sweden nor Italy signed the convention. The name on the side is simple, so the ships would be certain which lightship they had passed and knew exactly where they were. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SMMLcon Infomation & posts SMML Convention and tour notices: http://www.mikedunn.freeserve.co.uk/smml/help/smml_con.html If your coming to the SMML convention on friday, we need to know which tour you planning to attend so that we can get an accurate head count for transportation. Contact John Frohock ca139johnf@aol.com and let him know which tour you plan on attending. If you are going on a tour, you need to be onboard the USS Salem no later than 10:00am on Friday May 5th. We will open the ship starting at 9:00am for those who would like a cup of coffee and some schoozing before departure. For those of you who are not going on either tour; the USS Salem will NOT be open to the public on friday (Crew will be on watch to repel boarders if provoked ) so please do not show-up at the ship on friday unless you are attending the tours. Check out Convention and tour info at: http://www.mikedunn.freeserve.co.uk/smml/help/smml_con.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: SMMLiecon >> Of course, if you attend SMMLieCon you could hear Al Ross speak on the subject, meet him and pick his brain.... John Snyder And also John's brain as well ;-) Shane << Assuming that our brains are still functional.... :-} Al Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: louellet@uism.bu.edu Subject: Re: SMML Convention I'm glad to see that 45 people are interested in coming to SMML Con 2000 here in Quincy. To those who have paid in advance, thank you. To the rest, it is not too late. The more upfront payment we have, the better idea of what we can include in your fee. I will need to write checks to the Museum, the caterer, and the bus company, so having the money in the account before May 5th would be great. If you pay on Friday or Saturday, please bring cash. That way we don't have to wait for checks to clear once I deposit the money on Monday (I don't want any bounced checks!) As John mentioned in Sunday's SMML, vendors are welcome to bring merchandise and order forms. We have a couple of secure places to store anything during the day Saturday or Sunday. For anyone that has not contacted John Frohock, but is planning on coming, please email him very soon. Looking forward to SMML Con 2000. Larry Ouellette Volunteer, USS Salem (CA 139) U. S. Naval Shipbuilding Museum Quincy, Massachusetts, USA http://www.uss-salem.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: GKingzett@aol.com Subject: Re: SMML Con Did the fact that a little commercial activity is going to be allowed entice any non attendees to change their minds? Several of the threads we have followed this year really deserve some good face to face discussion. I was particularly hoping that we would be able to further clarify the judging standards of IPMS, particularly the question of accuracy vs craftsmanship. Also, real vs scale effect colors fascinate me. It seems we will have enough time for good long discussions, it would be a shame not to have access to all the resources the list has to offer. My wife and I will be driving up to Quincy Friday morning, we live in Northeastern New Jersey; if anyone needs a ride from the NY metro area we'd be happy to help. We drive all over the area, so picking people up would not be a problem for us. It may be easier and cheaper to fly into NY rather than Boston. If a person can get in to NY on Thursday evening and needs a place to stay, we have a couple of extra bedrooms. As I said, it would be a shame not to be able to talk to some real experts such as Rusty White, Bob Santos and others. We'd certainly be willing to do our bit. Gary and Mary Kingzett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Subject: W.E.M. Telephone / Internet Problems Hi Everybody, Caroline has asked me, over a rather crackly mobile phone line, to relay her apologies and to let you all know that White Ensign Models has not disappeared, but that the main telephone line has been acting up from before the Easter weekend. This means she has been unable to communicate on the net as well as by voice, so if any of you have placed orders or posted queries, please bear with us, as BT have promised to fix everything by late Wednesday. (They did not say which Wednesday, but hopefully it will be today.) It may take a while to get through the backlog but knowing Caroline, she will work till the wee small hours to ensure things get sorted. May I take this opportunity to make my apologies for not being able to attend the SMMLie convention, it is something that I really would have liked to be at, but, things have got in the way. One of these days I may actually find my way onto an airplane and get somewhere.!!!!!! Ah Well. May everything smile upon you, and I hope eveyone has a great time. I will look forward to seeing the Pics, Mike!!!! All the best Peter Hall -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume