Subject: SMML VOL 911 Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 01:17:55 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Concrete Ship 2: Newport News, VA 3: Re: Eastwind Screw 4: Re: false deck in Glencoe OREGON 5: Re: Koing and Grosser Kurfurst 6: USS Grayling-color of 7: Flower Class corvette book 8: Re: EASTWIND 9: Re: PT-109 10: Re: Baymo kits 11: Maple Leaf on Funnel (RCN) 12: US PT Boat 20mm gun shields 13: Re: Concrete Liberty Ship 14: Re: Resin hull "bend" 15: Re: Dunkerque 16: Re: Authenticity and fidelity of models 17: S-Boat SIG 18: Re: Site Update 19: Otaki 1:400 ship kits 20: Kuznetzov 21: Sims Class Destroyers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SMMLcon Infomation & posts 1: SMML Convention 2: The next SMML Convention 3: Lies, Damned Lies, and the Quincy Patriot Ledger 4: Where has my F****r Gone? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Ship Model Plans 2: 1/350 USS Tennessee by Classic Warships -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Schiefet@cs.com Subject: Concrete Ship >> When I was a mere lad, my folks took me to the Jersey coast, specifically Cape May, NJ. I recall a derelict hull laying just off shore, cracked and withstanding the tests of time. I believe it was a cast-concrete attempt at manufacturing a fleet of Liberty ships from non-strategic materials. There may have been a plaque or memorial on the beach... Anyone know anthing more about this subject? The inventor or company? If one wanted to do a scale model historically accurate, what materials would be advisable? Plans? I do know the idea was scrapped along with other W.W.II "great-ideas", like Churchill's bridge across the Channel scheme. << Don, Regarding the concrete ship off of Cape May, 40+ years ago I saw it for the first time. My great uncle informed me that it was one of several concrete ships built in W.W.I not W.W.II. I wonder if the Cape May Chamber of Commerce could provide some info. Good luck, Steve Singlar Pelham, NH -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Sean D. Hert" Subject: Newport News, VA I have a friend travelling to Newport News VA for a few weeks, and he wants to know what he can do/see there. Got some ideas? Thanks, Sean D. Hert Webmeister, Midewest Battle Group Site: http://www.netwalk.com/~popev/bg/ Ringmaster, Big Gun R/C Warship Combat Ring -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "hugh1lottie2" Subject: Re: Eastwind Screw Bruce, It may sound as if we are trying to avoid a complex problem but it is 1/700 and a waterline model. A full hull could be achieved by laminating sheet plastic to the resin hull and shaping with a Dremill tool and sandpaper. As for screws, I do know that the forward screw was removed but I don't know the date. Robbing screws off other full hull ships that are built as waterline and a fine brass screw I saw on "Tom's Model Works" Axis subs should fit the bill. Or perhaps Rusty could be persuaded to put a few on a sheet. You are right, the Eastwind was loaded for bear during those war years and had an attractive Thayer blue Camo scheme too. A resin ice flow with a brass Polar bear or dog sled would complete the picture. Hugh -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: Re: false deck in Glencoe OREGON >> It was from Tom's instructions that I first learned that the Glencoe Oregon was manufactured with a false deck on the boat deck level, deck 3. I expect that Glencoe did this for ease of manufacturing. In the mean time, I have viewed a good model of the Oregon at the Baton Rouge Maritime Museum and now plan to cut out the false decking on my own model. Do a bit of scratch building in order to add the internal structures and to fully appreciate the modeling experience. Maybe in five or six months I'll have a picture to post on the SMML. << If you can get any of the following magazines, I explained in them how to remove that false deck and make it right. I was dealing with converting the model to Massachusetts but that part is the same. Scale Ship Modeler Oct 1990 Fine Scale Modeler July 1992 Scale Model Detailing (1995) reprint of the FSM article Ship in Scale SEP 1984 to Feb 1985. this was a series of article on scratchbuilding the same area. Cheers, Bob Santos -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: wswan@popd.ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Koing and Grosser Kurfurst >> I was going to purchase the Konig & Grosser Kurfurst from ICM until I compared both ships on their site. Not knowing anything about WWI ships I was wondering if they are the sister ships because they look about the same. If they are I don't want to waste my money and purchase both of them. Does anyone have any advice? << According to Richard Hough's Dreadnought, MacMillan, 1975, they are indeed "sister" ships. However, I don't know how the individual fit differs between the ships. Hough's book simply states that Konig, Grosser Kurfurst, Markgraf and Kronprinz Wilhelm were the first German battleships with all center line turrets and shows a sketch indicating the 1918 fit. I have ordered the Konig myself and wait to see the difference also. I will probably buy the other anyway.........how many WWI BBs are there out there?!!!!! William Swan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: USS Grayling-color of It is possible that the Grayling was painted in a color known as Pearl Harbour Blue, in the very late 1941 time frame. Documents state that a number of submarines operating out of Pearl Harbour at this time were so painted. I would refer you to articles on warship camouflage by Alan Raven published in Plastic Ship Modeler. I ask that you go through these articles and then come back with comments. Hi Gang, PSM backissues are available from Dan Jones, White Ensign Models & Pacific Front (I think). Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: PT191@aol.com Subject: Flower Class corvette book Hi All: John Lambert is visiting me now. In fact, he's taking a nap right now in my recliner. He's a great guy and even better friend. He gave me his new FLOWER CLASS CORVETTE book. It is a GREAT book with great line drawings - a great aid for modelers! He gave me a little "private" talk about his set of drawings. I found out things about the FLOWERS that I never knew. John is a fountain of information. T. Garth Connelly -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "lcp9" Subject: Re: EASTWIND From: Bruce Burden Subject: Re: EASTWIND >> Plus the 3 quad 40mm's, 6 20mm's and 4? Y-guns, right? Plus the two depth charge racks and the hedgehog in the bow. How are you going to treat the froward screw? (I won't call it a propeller, since it wasn't used for propulsion). << Yes Bruce, there are 3 quad mounts, with a choice of cast or PE shields, 6 cast 20MM's with PE shields; PE Depth charge racks for both the stern and the K guns, cast depth charges for both types or racks. Cast Hedgehog. PE radar and mast details, PE boat davit details, PE Struts & propeller for the CLEAR CAST Grumman Duck, The forward screw isn't addressed as it is usually underwater. Thanks for your interest, David -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: eddp Subject: Re: PT-109 T. Garth Connelly and Chuck Duggie have already identified the gun, an Army M-3A1 37mm Anti-Tank gun. This weapon was mounted on a carriage with a split trail (the legs that ran from the axle back to the tow hitch could be spread apart) with a spade at the hitch end to dig into the ground and absorb the recoil. Inside of the wheels, a set of "rockers" was fitted. These looked sort of like a quadrant of a wagon wheel (three or four spokes and a flatish metal "Tire".) The "rockers" were of a larger diameter than the wheels, and in action, the "rockers were lowered to the ground and gun rolled up on them, and the spades driven into the ground. The mount was then supported by the locked "rockers", and the spades, with the wheels up, out of contact with the ground. The gun had a limited traverse of 30 degrees to either side with the mount fixed in this way. This is how the gun is shown mounted on Al Ross' drawings, but with the wheels removed. The rockers are cradled between two cross beams, and another beam supports the spades in the rear (or so I remember, I can't find the drawing at the moment.) Monogram produced a kit of this gun (with a Jeep prime mover) in 1:32 that was re-released a few years back. Someone (Airfix, Hasegawa?) made a 1:72 scale version I believe. Edd Pflum -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: CapnAgee@aol.com Subject: Re: Baymo kits Gee...$250 for shipping? Buy American next time or build your own! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Dean, Tom" Subject: Maple Leaf on Funnel (RCN) Hi Gang: Actually replied to the inquiry about the maple leaf on the funnel of RCN during WWII the other day but for what ever reason the message did not clear my server. I forgot who made the inquiry but I will try to address it now. The wearing of the maple leaf on RCN ships actually started in a limited way on some of the armed trawlers and sweepers during WWI but was discontinued on the few destroyers and sweepers that were in service during the lean years of the depression and leading up to the Second World War. The practice started to appear again around 1941/42 when ship's crews were looking for a way of to distinguishing their ships from similar ships of the RN. The wearing of the maple leaf was unofficial and seemed to be at the discretion of the CO of the squadron or ship. The early leafs were single, cluster of 3 (3rd escort sqd), incorporated into funnel bands or other designs etc. I think that no matter, most were green. In 1944 it was made official that they would be single leafs and green. I have seen photos of a number of ships at wars end and they were not sporting a leaf on the funnel, so it still seemed to be the ships choice. Most of the escort ships (Corvettes, Frigates, Sweepers etc) were commanded by Officers and crewed by Men of the RCNR and RCNVR, with the regular RCN Officers taking up shore positions for training and logistic purposes, or commanding the destroyers etc. The "Wavy Navy" sailors were responsible for the leafs, gun art and the unapproved ships badges. At wars end most of the "hostilities only" men left the service and the regular force men again took control of the reduced fleet. Most RCN regular Officers had received much of their training in ships of the RN before the war started. One of the things they did when taking back control of the ships was remove the funnel art and the "Canada" flashes from the shoulders of the uniforms. All this to blend in with the RN, and I guess pretend they were part of the larger fleet! After a number of small mutinies in the late 40's early 50's (work stoppages) on ships of the fleet because of what the crews perceived as poor working conditions and the "British" attitude of their officers a commission was formed head by Capt Mainguy. Because of this commission a number of changes were made in the fleet, amongst them the "Canada" flashes returned to the shoulders and the now red leafs to the funnels. Been that way ever since, although it hasn't always been possible to wear them on the funnel (see the 280 class). As far as modeling a ship from the war years I would advice to get a number of pics of that particular ship to see if she did wear the leaf on the funnel and what type. Some books to look at are "Canada's Flower", "Corvettes of the RCN", "The Sea is at Our Gates", and "Canada's Navy the First Century" all of which have pictures or references to the leaf. Also if you want to do a search for the "Manitoba Naval Museum" they have hundreds of pictures of RCN ships in their files. If the person who made the inquiry wishes to ask more contact me at this address or at tom.dean@sympatico.ca. Hope this helps a bit. Tom Dean Hamilton, Ontario Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: GrafSpee34@aol.com Subject: US PT Boat 20mm gun shields >> The 20mms on PTs were NEVER shielded. << Garth, never say never! :-) I've got several photos that say otherwise, for example check out Chun's nice book on PT boats, you'll see boats with and without the 20 mm gun shields. Looks like the shield was usually removed at the theater of operations, probably as a weight saving expedient. They might have been reattached as the tactical situation warranted. Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Art Herrick" Subject: Re: Concrete Liberty Ship Don, In the string of answers to your inquiry for information on the "subject", there seems there might possibly be some confusion in the term "Liberty Ship". The concrete cargo ship S.S. ATLANTUS that you refer to is not a WW II Liberty Ship, but it was built by the Liberty Ship Building Co., of Brunswick, GA. It was contracted for by the WW I, U.S. Shipping Board/Emergency Fleet Corp. (a WW I U.S. government agency). Her keel was laid 4/20/18, by the Liberty S. B. Co., and she was outfitted by the American Ship Building Co., Brunswick, GA and delivered 11/11/19. I am fortunate, in that I posses some original E.F.C. ship building office records, from the inception of the program in 1917 till the program was being shut down in June 1920. Along with the ship construction progress reports (for the entire program), there are General arrangement drawings for almost every ship design used (I am missing 5 of which one is a tug and the other a barge). The records are cross indexed ... Design General Arrangement Drawing Numbers and what yards built to the design ... Alphabetical list of ship yards in the program and what design numbers they used. There are over 100 General Arrangement drawings in the set I have. The E.F.C. ship building program was hugh and stretched all the way to Japan and China! These G.A. drawings are in all in a 11in x 16in page format. The G.A. drawing set also contains U.S. ships requisitioned by the E.F.C. in 1917 and two German passenger ships that were in U.S. ports and seized in 1917 when we declared war with Germany. By rough count, there were 41 concrete cargo and tanker ships contracted for, 29 contracts were canceled and 12 ships were completed, by ship yards on the East and West coasts. By June 1920, the E.F.C. only had seven concrete ships left in her inventory, out of the 12 built. My records show both the S.S. ATLANTIS and S.S. PALO ALTO, which was discussed in an answer to your inquiry. The tanker, S.S. PALO ALTA was built by the San Francisco Ship Building Co., Oakland Bay, CA. Don ... If you wish more information on the S.S. ATLANTUS, please contact me OFF-LIST at: artships@cheshire.net The hull on the general arrangement drawing for S.S. ATLANTUS is 11.375in O.A.L. or 1:300 scale, she is 250ft O.A.L.. There is more than enough information on the G.A. drawing (2 sheets) to build a waterline model, or if you have some expertise in basic hull design of the period, to do a reasonable full hull model. If anyone wants specific information from the U.S. Shipping Board/Emergency Fleet Corp. records that I hold. I wrote an article about them, and how I found them, which appeared in the Nautical Research Journal, Vol 45, No. 1, March 2000, p.44 to 50 (the quarterly of the Nautical Research Guild - If you are not a member, see there Web page and join!). Or you can contact me OFF-LIST please, if you have an interest in a specific ship from the WW I, EFC ship building program; artships@cheshire.net How many more of you SMMLies out there have an interest in modeling merchant ships of the early half of the past century?? Not discussed on the SMML very often, although I am a reasonably new member of the List. I am also a navy warship, and Coast Guard ship man. Art Herrick Westmoreland, New Hampshire P.S. I had a great time at the SMML 1 CON. If you could not go ... you missed something! Harold Lincoln's three merchant ship models, on display among the warships models, were a pleasure to see!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Marc Flake Subject: Re: Resin hull "bend" There are a couple of ways to address this problem -- microwave oven and almost boiling water. I use the microwave on my ship models and the almost boiling water method on my aircraft wings. Microwave: Set hull in oven, set oven to 20 to 30 seconds. Take hull out and press it down on the counter. If it doesn't straighten out, put it back in the microwave for more zapping. Continue to zap and press until bend is out. It took a full two-minute zap to get the 1/700 Viking TEXAS soft enough to straighten. Your mileage may vary. Almost boiling water: Put water in a pot, get it almost to the boiling point, place hull in the pot. Take it back out and set it on the counter. It'll either be so soft it straightens itself or you can press down. When I put an aircraft wing in the almost boiling water it's as floppy as wet cardboard. I've never done this with a ship. In both cases, be very careful of gun tubs and other delicate, thin-walled features, they will bend, too. What are you building? Marc Flake -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Russell Smith" Subject: Re: Dunkerque I just received my 1/700 scale Dunkerque. Made by Samek models and sold by Pacific Front Hobbies. I have a number of this company's German cruisers and their HMS York. All are very clean and well done. The detail seems to improve with each model. I have had time for only a quick check to make certain everything was there but it appears to be a very well done kit. So there is another model of this ship available. Russ Smith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: R C Marelius Subject: Re: Authenticity and fidelity of models Reply to vol 910, No. 12, RhinoBones Thank you for bringing up the point on "", historically accurate models and models that--well, aren't correct. I am the wife of a modeller who takes great pleasure in historically accurate model building. I take pleasure in studying such models, his or other people's. I start many models of many subjects myself and rarely finish anything :-). I really don't want to replicate someone else's work, even on those things where I have enough skill to do so. I want to create, to change, to practice the "what ifs" with something that will do no harm to anyone should it fail. I think there is room and more in the modelling hobby for people who are driven to accuracy, like my husband, and for people like me, who are driven to alter the existing order. Doesn't one lead to another eventually, in a weird behavioural circle. Both aspects are destructive when taken to extremes. I think there should be honor given to all who take pride in building things, no matter the scale, no matter that it has or hasn't existed before. So few people choose construction over chaos these days, I don't think this species cannot afford to lose the builders just because of the differences of purpose and level of recreation. Of course, after reading this, you can see why my husband goes in for modelling--- such philosophical grandstanding! (In fairness, he was into scale models before I met him.) Perforce, let us not be overly sticky with fiddlybits when it comes to other people, just adhere to our own principles in our own work. Okay--the soap box* dais is now available for another. Charlotte Marelius *In the US's past, people who wanted to say something to a crowd would stand up on a wooden shipping crate (apparently the ones in which soap was packed were frequently available) and start speaking, usually with more emotion than fact. Thus the phrase "get off (or on) your soap box" means to finish (or start) an emotional speech. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Kathleen Reid" Subject: S-Boat SIG In Vol 908, Dave asked those interested in S-boats to identify themselves. If you are compiling the list, Dave, please include me. Like several others who have taken that decisive step forward ("Hi", fellas!) I'm addicted to the damn things and can't get enough of them. Regards, John Reid -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Site Update >> Lots of pretty pictures, and none as fair as John Snyder......except Caroline Carter, but it's so close I ain't gonna call it << Mike, lad...if you're going to compare my attractiveness to that of Caroline's in the same "breath"...you've been at sea a bit too long!! John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys http://www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "michael thrupp" Subject: Otaki 1:400 ship kits Does anyone know what 1:400 scale ship models Otaki made in addition to their excellent USS Enterprise CVAN-65 kit no. OT 1-27 (quoted as OT 1-47 in D&S VOL.39), IJN Mutsu no. OT 1-34, and IJN Nagato no. OT 1-35, which I am in the process of building, and is a much better base for a decent model than the abortionate bath-toy 1:500 Nagato by Nichimo (unlike their excellent aircraft carriers, submarines ,and destroyers), or the 1:700 Nagato by Aoshima (also a dog). I believe Otaki did a 1:400 IJN Ise, which if anyone has got and wants to sell, I'd be interested in. Otaki sold the Enterpise moulds to Arii, and I'd like to know what happened to the others. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: zwood@webtv.net (Zack Wood) Subject: Kuznetzov I'm planning to start the Italeri Kuznetzov soon and was wondering how accurate it is , and also what is the proper deck color - I've seen photos of it in tan and also a sort of two tone grey? Zachary N. Wood -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Alberto Rada" Subject: Sims Class Destroyers Hi I am in the middle of building USS Wainwright DD 419 as in 1942 in measure 12 modified camo, in 1/192, it's the Classic Warships kit, that by the way its incredibly well done and quality of details is excellent, Well I have some questions, due mainly to my still not enough knowledge on the subject, so here I run for assistance to SMML much more knowledgeable members: 1 Where the rafts painted in Haze Gray ? 2 In the Mc Candliss plans I have, it indicates that the 26' Motor Whaleboat has two positions, one harbor with the davits toward the Ship and a sea position in an outward position, now, I have seen several photos of Destroyers at sea and the Whaleboats in several of them are in an inward position, is there a rule on this? 3 From the information I have been able to gather, there are different ways of rigging this class depending on the year, configuration and the ship itself, any info out there or photo where I can get an idea for DD 419 as of 1942? I have found this scale big enough to be able to detail a ship and small enough so it can still fit in your house, the two models I have, this Sims from Classic Warships and the Iron Shipwrights USS Panay are both top kits where you get an excellent model for your money Thanks a lot SALUDOS Alberto Rada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SMMLcon Infomation & posts -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Schiefet@cs.com Subject: SMML Convention To John F., John S., Larry O., and the rest of the cast and crew who organized the SMML convention --Bravo Zulu -- Well done. For the brief time I was able to be there I was impressed with the organization that went into the convention and the great displays. The ships on display were both impressive and somewhat intimidating for those of us who are real amateurs. All the SMMLies I spoke with were more than willing to share their tricks of the trade. Again, thanks for the effort that went into the convention. Steve Singlar Pelham, NH -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Phil M. Gollin" Subject: The next SMML Convention How about H.M.C.S. SACKVILLE - apart from the Bismark, Yamato, or Hood, surely the next most discussed, modelled class in our list. And just about as difficult for everyone to visit. Phil -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Lies, Damned Lies, and the Quincy Patriot Ledger Hi Guys, Horror!!! I've been mis-quoted in a newspaper! Re the SMML pages... "..Carter on a three-week stay in America...." Rumours are started by statements such as these!! One week actually! and.. "In England, the only one we have is the Victory," she said... EEK!! I never said that... hey, I've visited just about every preserved historic ship in Britain, and we've got just a FEW more than simply Victory, as the webmaster pointed out! and... "...Captained by British naval hero Admiral Lord Horatio Nelson.." NOT my quote of course, but Captained? CAPTAINED! Admirals don't captain! That was Hardy... Of course, it's far from me to be pedantic (!) Ah well, she was a very pleasant lady, bless her, and she was certainly enthusiastic and got to talk to quite a few of us there on Sunday. Also, nice pix, Owens! BTW, what happened to the on-deck of me with the arms of John Frohock and (Handsome Sailor) John Snyder around my waist, or was that one a little risque?! Caroline Carter http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models White Ensign Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: CA139JOHNF@aol.com Subject: Where has my F****r Gone? John Sheridan wrote: >> Psst everyone! John Frohock did not dare bring out his model of, you guessed it, a 1/96th Flower......unfinished of course!) << Well John, I'm hurt. My (unmentionable) Class model is not 1/96 scale. IT'S 1/48 because I want to work in scale where I need to wear steel toed shoes when I drop a bit on the deck! Face it, this is not a scale which one just packs off with for the weekly show and tell. As you pointed out Its unfinished and therefore not really ready, heck I'm still wiring the thing. Fear not, you will have your chance to gaze upon a true work of shipmodel art. And yes, it does float ;-)). Kurt G. wrote: >> The same folks who had the Salem "star" as the Graf Spee? << Oh Kurt, my son, I am so greiviously wounded. Everyone knows that Salem was used for the movie because she "Looked" the way the Graf Spee should have looked. Big, Powerful and Fast. At least its a better representation than than an ATF/DD. I like the Idea of SMMLcon 2 to be in the SF Bay Area. If thats the general consensus. I also like the UK, Toronto, Georgia, NYC, Halifax N.S. (home of HMCS Sackville, the last F****r Class) :-)). John Frohock Retired Convention Organizer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: GtLakesMem@aol.com Subject: Ship Model Plans Greetings to all: I have noticed an increasing interest in locating plans from which to build model ships. There is a source available with reasonably priced plans. Great Lakes Memories P. O. Box 51183 Livonia, Michigan 48151-5183 Telephone 877-452-1313 email: gtlakesmem@aol.com GLM has plans for several Great Lakes Passenger and Freighter models available. There is a selection of 8 Plans now. If you are interested, please contact us. We are also interested in what other models that you might be interested in having plans. Please contact us either through this site or directly at the above addresses. There will be a new catalog coming out by the end of the month. Al Jackman Great Lakes Memories -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: 1/350 USS Tennessee by Classic Warships I am just about finished with the pattern for the 1941, Pearl Harbor version, of the USS Tennessee, and should have the first kits available at the IPMS(USA) Nat. Convention in Dallas, TX. in late July. The Tennessee had a completely different superstructure from the 01 level, on up thru the entire bridge structure, so there is a difference between her and the California. The kit will sell for $260 full hull, and $230 waterline. After the convention the first 25 kits will be available exclusively from Pacific Front Hobbies in August. Thank you, Steve Wiper www.classicwarships.simplenet.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume