Subject: SMML VOL 932 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 00:40:49 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Various 2: Re: Securing A/C to carrier decks 3: Re: Tamiya Enterprise 4: Tamiya Enterprise 5: Re: WIG's 6: Re: KIEV 7: Re: "Authentic Graf Zeppelin" 8: Re: Revell 1/570 Queen Mary photoetch 9: KM Nameplates 10: SMMLcon 11: Re: New Jersey Turret top color '86 12: Paints 13: BF-109 T 14: Re: Serious help needed 15: gel-medium oceans 16: Caroline's challenge and some other musings. 17: Re: Tamiya Enterprise A/C 18: WIG's (Wings In Ground effect) 19: Montana? 20: Noah's Ark??? 21: 60th Anniversary of Dunkirk 22: Chris Langtree and the Warspite 23: Question -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SMMLcon Infomation & posts 1: Re: SMMLCon 2001 "Lend Me Your Ears!" 2: SMMLCon 2001 et al 3: Re: SMMLiecon 2001 4: Re: SMMLcon 5: Re: STEVE WIPER ROMAN PARTY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Latest Update -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Various Subject: New Jersey Turret top color '86 That should be the current Deck Gray (compare it to the color of the forecastle). Try FS 36008 (26176 for scale effect). The non-skid on the helo deck aft on the fantail will be much darker, almost black. Subject: Naval Stukas There are photos of the naval Ju-87 with wings folded in Siegfried Breyer's book on the GRAF ZEPPELEN. Subject: MARBLEHEAD I was going to cite the book, WHERE AWAY but Paul beat me to it. Let me second his suggestion though. I have the book in my library, and it's an excellent read! John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys http://www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Securing A/C to carrier decks >> How did or will you secure the aircraft and crash cars, crane truck, etc. to the deck? Or do you? Am curious how others do it. << Absolutely you want to secure the AC and other machinery to the deck. Otherwise you will be for ever rearranging them if they move around. I secured mine with super glue. Once all the gluing was done I sprayed a coat of clear flat over the entire model to hide the shiny glue marks. Since I ship many of the models I build around the world I secure the A/C with fine brass wire pins to the deck via a small hole drilled in the deck. The wire is anchored with super glue. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: klmok@home.com Subject: Re: Tamiya Enterprise >> For those of you who have built the subject carrier, or are in the process. How did or will you secure the aircraft and crash cars, crane truck, etc. to the deck? Or do you? Am curious how others do it. By not securing them there is an opportunity of rearranging them, but also a problem of movement if model is encased. << I do a lot of figures with my armour subjects. I use the rubber glue (that grade school kids use for their art class) to pose and secure small arms, field infantry equipment, tarps, etc. The rubber glue dries into a thin film and shrinks into a meniscus that is practically invisible, quite unlike plastic glue or CA which have body and hardens into an insoluble lump that paintovers cannot quite disguise. One advantage of rubber glue is that painted surfaces do not require preparation, it is secure enough to withstand quite a lot of handling and shaking (the rubber film is somewhat flexible) and if you don't like the first attempt you can always pull the object off, rub off the glue and repose. It will not leave any damage on the paint work. Kelvin Mok -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: KelDQ@aol.com Subject: Tamiya Enterprise I secured the aircraft with Microscale Krystal Klear. It tacks them to the deck, but if you want to pop them off and rearrange them, it won't mar the deck. HTH Kelly Quirk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Roland Mar Subject: Re: WIG's Thanks for the link. You might be interested in a design that was described by Horace J. Alter in PROCEEDINGS of the US Naval Institute in the 1980's [can't cite exactly as my issues of that period, including much of my own work, were destroyed in a flood]. A retired Lockheed engineer, he described a PAR-WIG, Power Augmented Ram - Wing In Ground effect, craft designed by his team in the 1960's. Bloody huge they were. 14 (fourteen!) of them could carry an entire division with equipment and vehicles (that was not a misprint) across the Atlantic in a time span measured in hours. The cargo loadout diagrams were quite interesting. I corresponded with him for a while, and they were at the point where they were ready to cut metal for a prototype when a certain Robert MacNamara killed the idea saying that we would never need it because we would always have all of those transports in the mothball fleet to use. (sigh) In the intervening years, according to Alter, improvements in materials and engine technology made the design even more feasible. Consider the difference in the strategic position of the United States if we had the option of intervening rapidly and massively overseas with our forces from the ZI and were not required to forward base. Also there is the effect it would have had on the conjectured Battle of the GIUK Gap that would have occurred if General Sir John Hackett was right. It would have been much easier to maintain air superiority for hours over the North Atlantic rather than spend weeks convoying. I will leave it to the reader to apply the concept to Kuwait, North Korea, or Taiwan. (once again, sigh). The article should be available from either the Naval Institute or from any decent sized library that subscribes. If you have to search, use the terms "Horace J. Alter" and/or "PAR-WIG". Roland Mar -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Roland Mar Subject: Re: KIEV Thanks for the updates. If you hear any more information on the subject, please keep us posted as the US media has an aversion to such stories. It was my understanding that the Chinese got the ships at bargain basement prices though, and in this last case there is an issue of technology transfer. As for them spending their money on MIRV's .. sadly we'll end up paying for their MIRV's, their launchers, and we'll give them aiming directions. Roland Mar -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Roland Mar Subject: Re: "Authentic Graf Zeppelin" I assume that the 1944 fit you mention was part of the strategic plan to escort towed barges with V-1's off of the coast of New Jersey to buzz-bomb us into submission ;-). Roland Mar -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Roland Mar Subject: Re: Revell 1/570 Queen Mary photoetch To Caroline Carter: You said that your PE set also covers the QM. Long (decades) ago I grabbed up one of the Revell kits thinking to convert it to a waterline troop transport version. Information on her fit at that time was not available, so it sits in the closet. Does your set have diagrams of what she looked like when hauling troops 10k at a time across the Atlantic. Conversely, do you know of a good source for diagrams? Also: hmm. bagpipes!, ships galore!, woad!, and codpieces! Maybe you Brits do know how to throw a party. I assume that there will be a plentitude of single malt and/or Guinness. I will regret being stuck here in the Rocky Mountains unable to attend. Post pictures/MPEGS of this one. Roland Mar -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: GrafSpee34@aol.com Subject: KM Nameplates Initially Kriegsmarine ships had name plates fastened to the hull sides, port and starboard at the stern. As in the Kaiser's Navy, the names were spelled out in raised brass letters on a blue background. While the Kaiserliche marine commonly used Roman letters, the Kriegsmarine used a "Fraktur" font, as on the sailors' cap bands. As far as I know, KM ships which completed after the war broke out did not have nameplates or even painted names on the stern. Prinz Eugen for example, had no nameplate, and no coat of arms on the bow. It did have its name painted on the life rings and the main turrets did bear "tradition names" of Austrian cities, however these were soon painted out. Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "katzcom" Subject: SMMLcon Well you can count me and mel in there Caroline, BTW the picture in my mind of Dave with his Froggey on ROFLMAO, boy that was a good episode of Chelmsford 123. BTW what happened about the last quiz you ran? you never got back with the answers here on SMML. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Norman C. Samish" Subject: Re: New Jersey Turret top color '86 I've got an overhead color photo of the Iowa delivering a full broadside in July 1984. I would expect Iowa and New Jersey to have the same color scheme. The Iowa looks similar to your photo of the New Jersey except for the part of the deck aft of the rear turret. The turret tops look the same, i.e. the top of the forward turret looks lighter and monochromatic when compared with the tops of the other turrets. This is Photo # DN-ST-85-05379 and can probaby be found on a navy archive web site that I can't remember the name of, sorry. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "PAUL LEUGERS" Subject: Paints Recently you had a small piece on naval paints on sale. I am not necessarily interested in the sale items but would like the address in order to get paint for my Navy destroyer. Paul Leugers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Robert Healy" Subject: BF-109 T Ok, I have to jump in the frey here. Schiffer Publications 'Graf Zeppelin" by Sigfried Breyer may not be the most accurate publication, however it does have a couple of shots of the JU-87C. The wings are folded back similar to the Wildcat (or the Martlet for our friends across the pond). There is a belly shot of a 109-T in flight, however the print is poor as was the lighting and I cannot tell if there is a fold or line anywhere on the wing where the position should be. The tail support struts are visible however supporting the 109-E conversion theory. "German Aircraft of the Second World War" by Smith and Preston have a short bio on the Bf-109T. "Perhaps the most interesting conversion of the BF-109E was the BF-109 T series ... Conversion of 10 BF-109T-0s was undertaken by Fiesler at Kassel during 1939-40, the machines having increased span, manually folding outer wings, wing spoilers, arrester hooks and catapult spools. Sixty BF-109T-1s were built by Fiesler during 1940-41...having a DB 601N (Naval?) engine". It goes on to say that most of the aircraft constructed wound up in Norway operated by I./JG 77. It is believed none survived the war. A few interesting statements there. Did the 109-T-0 have folding outer wings similar to the Japanese naval Zero? They were not true folding wings as we think of them today. The outer portion, about 3 feet or so, were unhinged and swung upwards and locked in place. Not a big deal, but a step in the direction of saving precious space on a cramped ship. An evolutionary step, not revolutionary (if accurate on the 109-T). I also wonder if there were any major exterior changes to the cowling to accomodate the DB-601-N. Perhaps the modifications were all internal. I built a TOMs 109T a few years back, I think it was a re-pack of someone elses kit. There are no creases or panel lines where a folding wing would break, nor or there any markings in the flaps or slats. It looks like an Emil with an arresting hook actually. Just some fuel for the fire. Regards, Bob Healy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Serious help needed >> I was serious, folks. I've got the Chi-com Romeo kit in 1/144; I'd like to convert it to the Foxtrot that's in Long Beach. They look similar, but there are important differences. I'm trying to get a handle on the amount of plastic surgery involved. Does anybody have: a. Knowledge b. References c. Comparative plans Or, lacking that, the opinion that I'm absolutely nuts << OK. I thought the Type 33 kit (Haven't seen it yet, just hear by word of mouth) was a Foxtrot. If it is indeed a Romeo, you've got significant problems. Romeos were medium range subs (1330 tons displacement surfaced) derived from the Whiskey class (in turn derived from German Type XXI subs). The Foxtrot (1950 tons displacement surfaced) was a long range sub derived from Zulu class. As such, the lengths and beam were different, Romeos were 252 feet in length, 22 in beam at the widest point; Foxtrots are 300 feet in length, 24 in beam, At 1/144 scale, that works out to a huge difference in length! (21 vs 25 inches in length). Since the hull has a constantly changing diameter, you can't stick a "plug" in it, like you might be able to do with modern US sub hulls. In addition, the two sails have signficant differences on their leading edges in the two classes, as well as sail size differences. I have detailed drawings of the Foxtrot and derived Golf (SSG) classes, but it would require significant, major alterations to a Romeo to make it into an accurate rendition of a Foxtrot. You might be better to scratchbuild rather than attempting the conversion. Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: MMo7581739@aol.com Subject: gel-medium oceans i im trying to use gel-medium to make a ocean scene for a 1/700 scale ship without much sucess. any tips on what tools to use and how to work the gel would be a great help. mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Peter K. H. Mispelkamp" Subject: Caroline's challenge and some other musings. >> (Well, not unless you can come up with the requisite 20 bag order) << Calling all "Graf Zeppelin" fans: Well guys can we collectively meet the challenge of ordering 20 bags worth of Fi-167's and Bf 109T's from WEM? Caroline: If you got separate orders from us that equalled your 20 bag minimum, would you, could you? Re. the 109T I know that at least company has released a 1/48 scale model of this plane. I re-read Green's "Warplanes of the Third Reich" on the design of the 109T, and to quote: "A break point was incorporated in the wing spar immediately aft of the gun bays to permit manual folding of the outer panels, reducing overall width to 13ft. 4in, although this was complicated by the need to detach the flaps prior to folding." Fiesler was given the job of converting 10 Bf-109E-1 airframes to T-0 specifications. Yes, all naval equipment and presumably modifications (including those folding wings!) were removed from the 60 or so completed Bf 109T-1 airframes and they were redesignated as T-2's, and they were completed in late 1941. Had the Graf been completed in 1942, I believe that she would probably have carried them for a short period. Re: the use of 109F and 109G models. I wonder if either of these models would have been able to successfully operate from a carrier deck. At the very least, some modifications would have been necessary. So, how would you modify them? The 109T's had been re-designed to work from short strips. Also, it was not uncommon for older designs to linger in specialized roles after their original role had been eclipsed. In any case, the 109T's that had been completed served as fighters until 1944! My personal opinion is that by early 1943 the Kriegsmarine would probably have snagged some FW-190's to perform at least three of the four carrier aircraft roles - torpedo bomber, fighter, and recce. [assuming the RN and the RAF hadn't hunted the Graf down by then.]. As I recall, the 190 wasn't too shabby as a bomber either!! The Graf might even have been able to squeeze a few more planes on board. (VBG) Can we agree to disagree? On another note has anyone heard any thing about something new in 1/400 scale ships from Heller? Whatever happened to the "Lost Aurora Plastics Company"? Happy modeling! Peter K. H. Mispelkamp -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Lisa and Bill Wiseman Subject: Re: Tamiya Enterprise A/C Ben, I used a microdrill to drill holes in the wheel/tires of the A/C and yellow gear and in the flight deck or hangar deck. Then used 0.02 inch brass rod to pin them to the deck. I encased the model in a Lexan case so replacing displaced detail parts would be a major undertaking. Doc Wiseman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "ERIC OLSON" Subject: WIG's (Wings In Ground effect) As noted in yesterday's SMML, the former Soviet Union was actively involved in developing WIG's. Revell AG has recently released a kit (#04609) of the Ekranoplan A-90 Orljonok WIG in 1/144 scale. It retails in the USA for about US$20 and is a very nice kit. I tend to agree that it's hard to categorize a WIG as either a ship or a plane, but they sure are interesting. Eric O.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Montana? Me again ... I'm looking for references/resources/plans to build a Montana (based on a couple of Iowas). Probably do it 1/700 as I've been advised it's easier to spread the beam on a waterline ship. Any suggestions on sources? Anybody have plans they can copy? I need to compare the Iowa and the Montana to get an accurate idea of how much plastic surgery is involved. Thanks Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Noah's Ark??? Still me ... (it seems like I'm always asking, but this group has mega-knowledge that I'm only beginning to acquire, so ...) Noah's Ark. This is perhaps the world's most famous ship - yet, as far as I can tell, there is no kit of the vessel. Recognizing this, and being fascinated by the idea of creating something that isn't in kit form, I decided last fall to make this my first scratch-building project. First, I used the Internet and the library to research the vessel - there are several very different designs offered by scholars of the subject; I chose the one that looked like a ship, not a warehouse. Then there are at least three different measurements for "cubit" - a royal Egyptian one, a Sumerian one and an Israeli/Hebrew one. I actually settled on the smallest of the three, in order to enable me to make the largest scale model I could out of the materials at hand. To create the hull, I laminated balsa boards - and their width (and the Ark's beam) was the determining factor on scale, which came out to 1/292nd scale. That, in turn, determined the length and the height (which, based on my reading of the architect's design instructions (i.e., Genesis), I determined to be the hull height, minus forecastle, sterncastle, deckhouse or ornamental keel. I drafted out top and side views, and cut away everything that didn't look like an Ark ... that got me the rough hull. Ditto for the deck house. So, now (months later), I've got the hull built, and sheathed in Evergreen scored plastic sheet (I find it far easier to paint plastic to look like wood in scale than it is to paint wood to look like wood in scale). I've got the fore- and stern-castles (is that the right term?) built up and the deck house complete and ready to paint (all plastic over a wood core). In fact, I'm ready to start some detailing work. I used Plastruct ladder (mounted horizontally on the deck house) as vent frames, then used Evergreen strip, cut small and square, for the open and closed vent hatches. Did the same for the fore and stern doors on the deck house. It's peaked roof also has vents, made from more Plastruct (stairways, not ladders). I told you all that to ask you this. Given that I'm trying to be accurate to the spirit of the Ark, and to the times (Ancient Sumeria, where the myth seems to have its origins - see Gilgamesh to meet the proto-Noah), I'd like ideas for the deck fittings, railing, scuppers, ropes, masts (?), rigging, bollards, capstans, anchors, etc. I am NOT going toy-like - no giraffes or elephants - the main hull hatches are framed in but closed. But I do want to detail the deck with all plausible materials. I'm figuring that rain or not, the crew would want to spend time on deck (can you imagine the stench of fodder, silage, muck, humidity, musk, etc.?), and, especially when the rain stopped, they'd want to work on deck, prepare for landing, repair their vessel, scout for land, etc. So ... ideas? Reference sources? Parts sources? Anything would be helpful. Thanks Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Simon Wolff" Subject: 60th Anniversary of Dunkirk Hi you all.. Didn't realise it until BBC World Service mentioned it but it is the 60th Anniversary of Dunkirk this week. They have been covering interviews with veterans, saw some footage of Dunkirk veteran boats returning to Dunkirk for the anniversary. Amongst the boats used last week, with re-enactment members, was a RAF Rescue boat of the era. Apparently today in Dunkirk there is an official celebration in the town square. Sad to see that the Dunkirk Veterans Associatiosn are shutting down due to diminishing numbers. A sign of the times that fewer veterans are around. Who can forget how a large group of volunteer boats amid warships recovered so many thousands of trapped English and French soldiers from the beaches. Heres to those veterans of Dunkirk. regards Simon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Alan &Teresa Scheckenbach Subject: Chris Langtree and the Warspite >> If you haven't already done so you could try looking for the Warspite's action report for the period (the Public Records Office has quite a few documents for the Norwegian campaign) or the aircraft encounter report (if that still survives). << Chris thanks very much for that idea. I shall ask a friend of mine in London to do that very thing. Cheers Alan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "David's Mail" Subject: Question Is the ICM Konig , resin or plastic. Hi David, It's plastic. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SMMLcon Infomation & posts -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: SMMLCon 2001 "Lend Me Your Ears!" As I've previously stated, sign me up, I'll be there! Keep my address flexible, as it's likely to change again prior to FOTS. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys http://www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Chris Drage" Subject: SMMLCon 2001 et al Hi All, Firstly, a big, public thank you to all the SMMLies who beavered away trying to ascertain when HMS Onslaught received her unusual variant of the Home Fleet camo scheme. It will appear in my next effort: PQ18. A special vote of thanks to Chris Langtree who gave up some of his valuable research time at the Public Records office on my behalf. SMML really is a 'club'. Regarding SMMLCon 2001 The suggestion of using the Festival of The Sea is one that no SMMLie can afford to miss. I spent just one day at the last one and Wow! I was blown away by the whole event. Ships from the full sized replicas of Capt Cook's Endeavour to John Cabot's Matthew. I particularly enjoyed the various 'events' during the day and the visit to HMS Invincible was tremendous. Add to this all the usual maritine visits in and around the harbour and the prospect of a booze-up at Jim's afterwards then what more could you wish for. Portsmouth 2001 it HAS to be! lastly, another modelling question for you all to bend your minds round: I want to model a JU88 from KG26 and KG30 (Norway 1942) Can anyone suggest a reference where I might find the aircraft colours/markings insignia etc? I plan to put an aircraft crashing into the sea as part of the PQ18 dio. Regards, Chris He tao rakau e taea te karo, tena he tao kupa kaore e taea te karo......(Te Reo Maori) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) To: SMML Subject: Re: SMMLiecon 2001 Hi Folks, Since Caroline has asked for support with the FOTS location for SMMLiecon 2001 I would like to put my vote in for this one as well. I may even get together with Jim Bauman and bring my collection of ships to display at his BBQ / PU along with his own. I reckon that the atmosphere created by such an event would make for an unforgetable occasion. Portsmouth in the summer months is pleasant as San Francisco and without the risk of earthquakes shaking your rigging and tackle. All the best Peter Hall -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: SMMLcon >> 2. Boycotting San Francisco: Tom, I'm a 'Nam vet. The Willie Browns of this world will come and go. Ignore them and the rest of the yo-yos that bother you. Boycott San Francisco and you'll boycott your $ away from the museum ships there: JEREMIAH O'BRIEN, PAMANITO, the ships at Hyde Street Pier, and indirectly HORNET and RED OAK VICTORY... how long do you think they'll last without tourist $ to keep them in existence? What about all the dedicated folks who labor to keep them in existence....? << Best solution is apply the Frohock approach :-) Hold the convention outside of SF, but do a day tour to see and support the ships. That way our money goes to the ships and not Willie and his cohorts!! Is there somewhere around Alameda Navy Base where the Con can be held?? Perhaps the Navy will lend us a CVN for a day or two :-) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "feed" Subject: Re: STEVE WIPER ROMAN PARTY >> Well if you must, but I'd really prefer that you bring the wine! ;-) << !!Of course¡¡ By the way. Do you prefer it red or white? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Mike" Subject: Latest Update Once more, we have the past few issues up on the web site, and indexed. Looks like they've sorted out the problems with the search function, but please let me know if it falls flat again ....... Mike SMML Webmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume