Subject: SMML VOL 972 Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 00:08:27 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: INS Mysore 2: Whatever happened to Viking Models? 3: 16" barrels 4: Ship Plans In Magazines 5: Veterans? 6: Revised kit list 7: Curbing tongue 8: Re: Japanese frigate deck colors 9: USS Missouri photoetch 10: Re: Plans in magazines 11: IS Knox Class Frigate 12: WWII Vets 13: Re: Kamikaze 14: JAG USS Albany 15: PSM? 16: Loose Cannon PT/T2 Interest - YES 17: Service Thread ... 18: Re: Viking Models 19: Airfix 1/600 H M S Hood. 20: Re: PSM-22 21: Re: Great Eastern 22: Guns - size doesn't matter -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SMMLcon Infomation & posts 1: Re: IPMS-SMML Reception -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: AJOWENS@aol.com Subject: INS Mysore This ship is in Boston as part of the SailBoston (Tall Ships) flotilla this week and I shall be out photographing the ships this weekend (saturday), so if anyone has any requests let me know... Best, A.J. Owens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Edward F Grune" Subject: Whatever happened to Viking Models? Two notes 1) The July Squadron Mail Order flier still lists Viking Model products. 2) Rusty notes to be aware of the names Dan Joplin & Jay Slaughter. Three or four years ago (Before Viking) - I bought a 1/72 scale Pibber made by Joplin FX. Its the same as the Viking Pibber. Caveat Emptor Ed Mansfield, TX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Shirley Sachsen Subject: 16" barrels >> Is the factory "mothballed" to produce 16" barrels? I had understood that the equipment was scrapped. My fading memory seems to think this may have been the Watervlit (sp?) arsenal? << I remember reading somewhere, and now I don't recall which publication, but I think it was either Proceedings or Naval History, that the remaining 16" barrels blanks were scrapped along with the decommissioning of the base they were stored at. The writer was justifiably outraged by this as he commented that there was no means to create any more of them, and that while the ships that used them were still 'inactive reserve' it was extremely shortsighted to scrap parts for them--especially considering that it doesn't take long to 'shoot out' 16" barrels. maybe someone else on the list will have this reference, or a more current assessment ready to hand. s -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Victor M. Baca" Subject: Ship Plans In Magazines Ref Mr. Dunn's reply to Steve Wiper in SMML #971 It is true that various ship model publications have published ship plans, BUT they are generally re-drawn plans, sometimes missing critical views. These, of course, can be obtained in full by writing the publisher who will then supply the complete set for a price. I bought some of these, only to find they were semi-scale drawings. They were often re-drawn to give fuller lines for "operating models" which is totally unnecessary and harks back to the days when R/C models were thought to need extra interior room for heavy equipment and to give a scale-like operation in the water. In these modern times we now know that this is also an unnecessary butchering of the original naval architect's lines. I strongly believe "semi-scale" plans have no place in scale ship modeling. If you are going to build a ship model, it should be an accurate representation using accurate research material. It takes just as long to build something that's not a true representation to the prototype as it does to construct a true-to-scale model. If the modeler needs to make a ship replica that, for whatever reason, doesn't require a highly detailed presentation, it's better to include less fine detail to complete the model rather than going the semi-scale route. That way, you still have an acurate model and you may add fuller detail whenever the circumstances or mood dictates. I don't mean to belittle anyone's choice of reading material, but it is time we re-define the presentation of periodical ship's plans and view them with an eye to preserving historical naval architecture. The magazine Mr. Wiper wrote about includes copies of official general arrrangement ship's plans including the hull lines, all reproduced to a common ship modeler's scale. There is no doubt about their authenticity and it is now possible to build a scale model directly from the periodical's pages. In addition, there is in-depth prototype ship photography included, often keyed to the printed plan. The U.S. is not only "catching up," we are setting a new standard. May your models gather no dust, Victor Baca NOTE FROM LISTMASTER Just to make it clear for those who may not know. The magazine that Mr Baca is referring to in his last paragraph is Model Ship Journal, which he edits & publishes. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Robert Mosher" Subject: Veterans? Interesting question you raised. While not strictly a "vet" I was there for the evacuation from Saigon aboard LPD Vancouver, and saw HMS Invincible before she left for the Falklands, in Weymouth harbour. However, in all instances I was a civilian employee of the U.S. government - not strictly a veteran. Robert M -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: Revised kit list Genlemen, Excellent! Thank you for your fine work and dedication. I'm sure it is appreciated by all SMML people. Regars, John _ Seattle -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Curbing tongue >> I believe Rusty White will be extremely happy to answer this question for you. I would hate to take away from his enjoyment by providing the answer. :-) << Am I that obvious? I don't mean to be. I'll make a conscious effort to curb my tongue in the future. It's just that business ethics like screwing modelers out of their money and offering no customer support just grinds my teeth. I've made no secret that I have an ax to grind with them. There I go again! Tongue curbed. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Raynor Johnston" Subject: Re: Japanese frigate deck colors Can anyone advise what a suitable deck color would be for 1980 "Hatasyuki" class large frigates. Would the same color be on the bridge deck, helio deck and the top deck aft of the funnel, Any help appreciated. Raynor Johnston -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Mike Connelley Subject: USS Missouri photoetch Howdy: Two people and a Missouri in the same flat, I'd have to see that for myself! Anyway, the GMM etched set is quite nice, give you a lot of details and lots of railing. However, it'll set you back about $36. There is the Tom's Modelworks set for about half that price. It doesn't have railings or ladders, but it's radars are much better than the GMM radars. If your wallet can afford it, I'd recommend getting both. If you really want to go to town on photoetch (and I've really gone to town), you can get - GMM extra ladders (not enough in the basic set to do the whole ship) - GMM watertight doors (also not enough in the basic set to do the whole ship) - GMM 20mm & 40mm gun details (for 20mm guns, and 40mm quad gunsights) - Tom's floater net baskets (lets you replace the really thick and obnoxious kit parts with real mesh parts...or you can get some small mesh on your own, but this is easier) - Tom's 40mm quad shields (do get these, they're really smashing and let you trash the kit shields which really don't look that good. I'm handeling it by using the kit guns, glueing them to Tom's white metal bases, then glueing Tom's etched shields around the base) - Flagship Models surface ship propellers Of course, all that brass will cost you a pretty penny (actually, quite a few of them), and you may forgoe adding some of these details but I think all of these sets are worthwhile and add to the appearance of the model. Cheers Mike Connelley -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: Plans in magazines >> Still, it's nice to see the US finally catching up with this hobby ;-) << Mike, you need a lesson in diplomacy. What I meant was that plans are covered, as in reviewed. I have seen the free plans provided in some of the British publications, and as you stated they were free. Some were of good quality, but I found quite a few to be of a quality I would not purchase. I am not knocking any of the British publications, I have found some of them to be interesting, and good. Next time you wish to be so blunt, e-mail me directly. Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Rob Mackie Subject: IS Knox Class Frigate Rusty White wrote in yeseterdays SMML: >> Rob Mackie says it's an excellent kit with revolutionary casting techniques that make the parts just snap together. << Rusty, I didn't say there was anything "revolutionary" about the IS Knox, so it overstates the case to say as much. Whether or not the kit is "excellent" is too early too say because neither brass, decals nor instuctions are available as yet. It has the potential to be a very good kit. The resin portion of the buildup is certainly easy, but a final assessment will have to await the complete kit "in-the-box". You can read my preview of the Iron Shipwright Knox class frigate at: http://warship.simplenet.com/ISKnox.htm Rob Mackie Warship http://warship.simplenet.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Clem Jensen" Subject: WWII Vets If we are starting to count WWII vets who are left, I'm still here Bougainville Phillipines Borneo Clem Jensen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: klmok@home.com Subject: Re: Kamikaze >> the Kamikaze wind saved Japan from a MONGOL invasion. Ghengis Khan was a Mongolian who conquered China and founded the Yuan dynasty. Mongolians aren't Chinese but foreigners. Recent evidence also suggests that the troops used on the invasion craft were actually Korean's, not Chinese. << The best write up on this obscure bit of history (to westerners) is found in the Feburary 1997 of the National Geographic on the The Great Khans. That issue included a map insert that gives a panaromic description of their campaigns conquests. An earlier NG issue December 1996 had a lead feature on the great Ghengiz Khan himself. Worth reading up. Kelvin Mok -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Frank and Carol Berger" Subject: JAG USS Albany I just received the JAG Albany from Pacific Front today. WOW! If you have built any other JAG kits you will love this one. The hull is cast to the same high standards as the Long Beach. The smaller parts are cast considerably better than the parts included with the LB and the photoetch is superior! Hurray to JAG for increasing the level of finess in their kits! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Ned Barnett Subject: PSM? >> Well the latest PSM has popped thru the mailbox. Dan has yet again done a very good job with it. << So how/where do we get this paragon of journalistic pulchritude? Hi Ned, Oops forgot to mention that. You can get copies and further info on distribution from Dan Jones at: mailto:dhjonespsm@juno.com I get mine from White Ensign Models as Dan doesn't take credit cards. I believe Pacific Front stocks them as well, but am not sure. WEM: http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models Pacific Front: http://www.pacificfront.com/ Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Loose Cannon PT/T2 Interest - YES >> If you can be patient, Loose Cannon has FUTURE plans to upscale both its PE and some cast parts from their T-2 tanker to match Revell's box scale kit. This would include the PT deckload, weapons and alternate stacks currently included in their 1/700 kit. Anyone out there interested in this possibility should let LCP know, maybe that will spur him on to quicker action! You may e-mail me at dmduck@brevard.net or Dave Angelo at lcp@email.msn.com and express your interest in this upgrade kit. << You better believe that: a. I'll be patient b. I'm VERY interested c. I'll check out their 1/700 kit (too) - which is news to me ... Thanks, and tell them to get those puppies pumpin ... Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Service Thread ... >> Reading Johns post got me to wondering - of all of us out there in SMML land, how many are WWII vets? For that matter how many are vets that saw action in Korea, Vietnam or Desert Storm as well? Though it might be an interesting string... << Quickly, I agree, Glenn. In '66, I was appointed to Annapolis by Georgia Senator Richard Russell - Chairman of the Armed Services Committee ... but failed the eye test when I refused to cheat ... In '69, I volunteered for Air Force ROTC and after acing the Pilot and Navigator Qualifying Test (a day-long SAT-like test) I was offered a full four-year scholarship ... only to have it rescinded when I failed another eye test. In '74, after Vietnam had died down and the Naval Reserve was hurtin' for certain, I volunteered to become a "Remington Raider" (I'm in PR professionally, and I figured the Reserves could use someone to pound out the base newsletter - a job my boss had in his Marine Reserve unit). No dice. My vision is correctable to better than 20/20, but that wasn't enough - so I broke what would have been a three-generation Navy tradition (my grandfather was Asiatic Fleet welterweight boxing champ in '20, my uncle was Stuka'd in the Med on an Ammo ship [and survived] then faced Kamikazes from Manila Bay to Okinawa on a combat transport, and my dad survived four Kamikazes off Okinawa in CL-57, the USS Montpelier, which is more than the pilots could say). The family motto was "We carry our beds, our kitchens and our bathrooms into combat - we live clean, we eat clean, we sleep clean - and if we die, we die clean." After getting to know my now-ex father-in-law, who built runways while under fire in the PI (Leyte) with the Army Engineers, I know that family motto is for-real no-shit. So it's not for a lack of trying - hell, all I ever wanted to do was make Captain in the regulars, retire at 20 and bust Rear Admiral in the Reserves before they laid me to rest ... so instead, I build models and write press releases ... Ned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Ed & Eleta Malewitz Subject: Re: Viking Models Rusty, I'm a big fan of the U.S.S. Texas BB-35, but refrained from buying the Viking kit after reading your warning. I believe in ethics in personal and business relationships (in real life, I'm a Human Resources manager). And I hate to see a dishonest business flourish at an honest manufacturer's expense. So your message denied Viking of my $175.00! Ed Malewitz -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Connor, Michael" Subject: Airfix 1/600 H M S Hood. Hi ALL, I was hoping someone could help me with a problem. I have had the Hood since I was a kid. Its over thirty years old I think. Origionally I mucked up the superstructure. About ten years ago I bought the Warspite kit and performed a "What If" on it(the Hood) using the Warspite superstructure. It has been a sort of "work in progress" ever since. Now that I have started again to build models I thought I might finish it. The big problem is I have no secondary armament for it. As it was "rebuilt" at about the same time as the Warspite I didn't think that 5.25" guns would be correct. I as thinking more of 4.5" in open shields. Would anyone have any, say from an old Ark Royal model they would like to part with? Or would anyone have any other suggestions? I have never tried scratch building. Thanks in advance. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: dhjonespsm@juno.com Subject: Re: PSM-22 >> Well the latest PSM has popped thru the mailbox. Dan has yet again done a very good job with it. << You are just now getting it???? I pay for air mail but they must have put this one on a boat. I wonder if the same is true for all the rest that went "down under". This issues was mailed out over a month ago.... >> Article on supertankers - a much neglected part of ship modelling << Just a note: This article includes two plans in 1/700 of Japanese built vessels. >> I also have to pick Dan up on one major mistake though - Sydney is NOT spelt Sidney ;-). << And I DO know better. That was not the only typo in this issue. I was deprived of the proofreading services of my ace assistant editor Paul, he was moving during the production of this issue. We will certainly do better next time. While I am always appalled when I see a mistake that has gotten into print in PSM, I find that the "pros" sometimes do a lot worse. I just purchased a very attractive book from England (out of print now) called "Britain's Maritime Heritage by Robert Simper (David & Charles 1982). The following quotation is to be found on pages 136-137: "The white Star Line's attempt to keep its position in the North Atlantic after the TEUTONIC the MAJESTIC was the building of the 800ft TITAN and the 883ft TITANIC. Both ships were described as being unsinkable, but both sank after hitting icebergs. The TITANIC did so with an unnecessary high loss of life on her maiden voyage, taking down with her the chairman of the White Star, J Bruce Inman, son of the founder, and most of her passengers". As most of you probably know, the TITAN was a ship of fiction, the subject of a novel published some years before the TITANIC sinking, wherein this great ship sunk on her maiden voyage after striking an iceberg, with a passenger list of the very rich and famous. This novel is one of the most striking examples of psychic premonition ever published. And of course, J. Bruce ISMAY survived the TITANIC sinking to become the a focus of great scandal. While there was no tradition of the sea requiring an owner to go down with his ship, Ismay's spur of the moment decision to take a place in a life boat did not sit well with the public. I do not think I shall have occasion to refer to this book again except perhaps to look at the pictures.... makes our little problems with PSM look very minor indeed. Shane, thank you very much for the nice review. Daniel Jones Plastic Ship Modeler magazine Hi Dan, As I mentioned above I get mine thru WEM & they were in the country as of last week, mine just a little longer to get to the NSW Central Coast :-(. As for typos, well some of the ones we've let thru in the APMA magazine since we took it over don't ever bear repeating again :-(. BTW, you mentioned that there was stuff you had to leave out because of space constraints, does this mean we might see an increase in the frequency of issues?? I know work commitments, etc may stop that, but I for one would like to see more issues come out ;-). Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: Great Eastern About the Great Eastern I remember watching an espoides of Ripley's Believe it or not and the story of the riverters came up and it said that two workers were working on the outer hull when the interior hull was built behind them trapping them. So for about 1 month they used their hammers to pound on the walls to get attention giving the ship the reputation as being haunted. During the scrapping they were found still holding their hammers. I went to see Perfect Storm and it was a good movie and it reinforces what my 12th grade science teacher taught us-Mankind for all it's achievements can never match Nature's power. Oh about the Pearl Harbor movie it's release date is Memorial Day 2001. Craig Bennett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Ian Wood & Ellen Hume & Adara Wood Subject: Guns - size doesn't matter Quick thought - It was always my impression that diameter is not so important as the weight of shell and amount of powder you can put behind it ( = range). A ship provides a much greater mass to push against so moderate diameter navy barrels actually throw heavier shells further than equivalent army ones (at least so my Gunnery Instructors always told me, and I guess this was true until army cheated with rocket boosted munitions). Anecdotal evidence was that RN star shells gave many times the amount of light compared to an Army one (4.5 inch vs 105mm). Don't know if this is areasonable comparision. I read somewhere on some list that people are prototyping a vertical barrel that flings the shell many miles up, and it then drifts on down on fins to teh target which is about 60 to 100 miles away. Never did understand teh physics so please, no essays. Apparently the big thing for range was height, and getting it there quickly (hence vertical rather than 45 degrees). Unfortunately this would be a very boring thing to model, would not look impressive on a ship and so will probably never be approved for service. cheers, PS I had thought of saying "honey - it ain't the girth that matters, but the amount of bang at the end" but thought it unsuitable. Oh and Shane - I always knew the West Island was the largest Hi Ian Wondered how long it would take the Kiwis to get in on the act. Must admit though, you were quicker than I thought you'd be ;-þ. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SMMLcon Infomation & posts -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Marc Flake Subject: Re: IPMS-SMML Reception With 26 percent of those eligible voting, the date and time for the SMML Reception at the IPMS-US National Convention is (so far): Saturday from 3 p.m to 5 p.m. I know 26 percent is a pretty small fraction, but that's the usual percentage of voters that get mayors elected in these parts. Actual vote is 7 for Saturday and 3 for Friday, with two voting for both days. I think Saturday will work out best for everyone. Except Rusty, who'll have to leave early to get "cleaned up and dressed" for the banquet. Rusty, you gonna wear one of those Okie tuxes? Voting will close with Saturday's SMML post. On Sunday, I'll tell IPMS when we want the room. By the way, the rooms have been changed. We will no longer be "right next to the bar." But, as I understand it, there will be no problem about bringing refreshments into the room. Marc -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume