Subject: SMML VOL 981 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 00:33:18 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: KGV Boot Topping 2: 1/350th Roosevelt??? 3: Re: bases 4: Re: Italian Navy and Vet Thread 5: Norwegian Navy prefixes and a lighter 6: Transatlantic Humo(u)r 7: Translation 8: Re: H.M.S.Frobisher 9: Vet thread 10: USS Vestal 11: Shirley's "buddahstat" and other snipe hunts 12: Re: ARK ROYAL 13: Re: Italian Navy 14: Re: Zumwalt Class Surfboards 15: My day at the nats... 16: USS Liberty Scandal 17: USS Liberty 18: Classic Warship's latest books -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SMMLcon Infomation & posts 1: IPMS-Dallas Day 4 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Upcoming Model Exhibit 2: Announcement from White Ensign Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS Congratualations to the following SMMLies (info courtesy of Marc Flake with his great update posts - thanks Marc ;-) ) who did well at the IPMS(USA) Nats: John Collins - 1st 1/350 ships Gary Kingzett - 1st 1/700 ships HMS Iron Duke (WEM I presume?) Ed Grune - 3rd in subs If there are any other award winning SMMLies - please don't hide your light under a bushel ;-) Shane & Lorna -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "David" Subject: KGV Boot Topping >> I am sure there are as many methods for this as there are subscribers. What works for me is this: Place model on firm level surface where it won't move. Using wood blocks to the correct height of the boot topping, scribe a line with a pencil that is fixed to the wood blocks all around the hull. This method has been described in a few publications and does work. << PAVEL, MANY THANKS! I'll try it today. This is a GREAT list -- everytime I hit a problem, one of y'all (that's US Southern for 'youse') bails me out. David -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Ralph & Karen Batykefer" Subject: 1/350th Roosevelt??? I've heard a number of modelers talking about modifying a 1/350th Tamiya Enterprise into a Nimitz class (like the one shown at the IPMS US Nationals in unrep). I thought they were too different to make a conversion... The ship is longer etc... Does anyone have a listing of what modifications would be necessary to convert her? Or better yet, does anyone have the name/e-mail address of the person who built the Roosevelt unrep diorama seen at the US Nationals? IHS, Ralph -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: SantMin@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 11:34:41 EDT Subject: Re: bases >> August 1969 Bolxie Miss, three day in front of hurricane Camille the last force 5 storm to hit the US. << >> Maxwell AFB. << HMMMMMM. The base at Biloxi was called Keesler AFB when I was there. Bob Santos -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "J. London" Subject: Re: Italian Navy and Vet Thread I would like to support the comments made regarding the Italian navy in WW 2. Their individual seamen were outstanding and had a lot to put up with. Poor air cooperation, shortage of fuel, political interference and the like. One has only to recall the daring attack by frogmen which crippled the battleships QUEEN ELIZABETH and VALIANT in Alexandria, it was only the secret veil that was pulled over the event by the British that prevented this from becoming a major naval disaster for the Allied cause. A similar event occurred in WW 1 with the sinking of the Austro-Hungarian battleship VIRIBUS UNITIS on Nov 10 1918 at Pola just as she was being handed over to the new Yugoslav Government. As for the vet thread. I did try to join the Royal Navy, honest. But my eyesight was not up to par for the branch I had chosen, Ordnance. The Army was not as fussy however and in 1946 I was called up. Commissioned in the Royal Engineers (Works) in 1947 and sent to the Canal Zone. Asst. Garrison Engineer Port Fouad (across the Suez Canal from Port Said) for about three weeks then sent to Kenya arriving Christmas 1947. Sent into the bush to recruit men for the newly-formed East Africa Construction Units and stationed at MacKinnon Road (about 60 miles up country from Mombasa). Detachment Commander at Voi with sub-detachments at Tsavo (where the man-eating lions came from) and Buchuma. Learnt Swahili. Troops were from the Kikuyu, Jalua and Wakamega tribes and a great bunch of guys they were. Back to UK in August 1948 by troopship (SS Ascanius) through the Red Sea. No air conditioning and you could literally fry eggs on the bare deck. Demobilized and joined the Territorial Army, again RE. Then took a civilian War Office job as Garrison Engineer in Benghazi, Libya from 1950 to 1953. After emigrating to Canada in 1953 joined the Canadian Army Militia and served with the 2nd Field Engineer Regt in Toronto until my company posted me to Saint John NB. There I joined the 1st (Brighton) Field Squadron. Back to Toronto in 1957 and back to 2 Fd Engr Regt where I served successively as Training Officer, Adjutant, Squadron Commander, Deputy Commanding Officer and finally as CO (L Col). Retired in 1968. Served also as National President Military Engineers' Association of Canada 1968-70. Although I nearly got blown up a couple of times on demolition exercises I never had to face the fury of an enemy (unless you count bad-tempered Brigadiers). I salute all those who did some real fighting. Thoughout all this my interest in ships has never waned (at least the Engineers involve watermanship) and I continue to read about, write about, and model them. Michael London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Jens H. Brandal" Subject: Norwegian Navy prefixes and a lighter The Royal Norwegian Navy uses the prefix KNM for their ship names - like KNM Oslo for example. KNM means Kongelige Norske Marine, and translates literally as Royal Norwegian Navy). The lead ship of the Oslo class frigates ran aground after suffering an engine failure in a storm, so we're down to four frigates now (KNM Stavanger, Bergen, Trondheim and Narvik). No kit of this class exists as far as I know. A lighter? Well, I've heard this story about two guys in a rowing boat, carrying a pack of cigarettes and no matches. Dying for a smoke, how do they solve the problem? Throw a fag overboard which makes the boat a cigarette lighter. Good enough for you?:) Jens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Joel Labow Subject: Transatlantic Humo(u)r Colleagues, Despite the recent teddibly, TEDDIBLY distressing report of the demise of humor hereabouts, this untutored Yankee was intrigued by the following newsflash reproduced verbatim from the 24 July 00 issue of the Navy Times newspaper: JUST SAY 'BANG!' ALL TALK, NO ACTION AS BRITS SAVE BUCKS ON GUNNERY PRACTICE "Gunnery training is now being delivered through static non-firing training and simulation" The British Ministry of Defense issued the above instruction this spring to recruits at the Royal Navy's gunnery training school. At a cost of about $967 apiece, the ministry decided that that 4.5 inch shells used in actual gunnery training could be dispensed with and replaced with a verbal expression. "You sit in a gun and shout 'Bang, bang.' You don't fire any ammunition," one young sailor told the Daily Telegraph newspaper. "It's a big joke and sailors are disgusted. It's just like being back in the school playground when you shouted 'bang' to shoot your friends in a game of cowboys and Indians." Sailors at HMS Cambridge, the gunnery school near Plymouth in southwest England check coordinates, line up a target and prepare to fire. "You used to hear the sound of gunfire from Cambridge," the sailor said, but now there are just shouts of 'bang, bang' over the microphone." "It's been going on for years," a British Navy spokesman told Navy Times. "Apart from the the part when you pull the trigger, there's no bloody difference." "No one is ever going to go through training and not actually fire a gun," he said. He added that apart from fiscal concerns, the move was made to avoid disturbing fishing grounds and to reduce noise in the pupulated Plymouth area. The above news report is accompanied by a cartoon which shows a line of hearty matelots exclaiming: "Orange forces right ahead!" "BANG, BANG, BLOODY BANG!" "Harpoons ready.....FIRE!" "WHOOOOSH! Suh." "I need a beer." LOL (which still happens occasionally on this side of the pond!) Joel Labow -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Translation Hi all Some issues back someone posted a web site for free transaltions. As I lost this when my computer crashed and wiped out my back issues of SMML is it possible to post this again. Many thanks Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Erhardtsen" Subject: Re: H.M.S.Frobisher In nr. 978 Tony Ireland ask for drawings of H.M.S.Frobisher I made my 1/700 model using the drawing (1/1200) from the serie "Fighting Fleets in miniature" in the magazin "Model Boats". Frobisher is in the copy from march 1983 page 144. Photos and informations I got from "British Cruisers of World War Two" by A. Raven and J. Roberts. As I do not have mr. Tony Irelands adress, I can not send him the drawing. Erik Erhardtsen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "O'Connor" Subject: Vet thread SMMLies, Hello, all from rainy (finally) Florida, where I just got back from a train show where I picked up a copy of George Bruce's "SEA BATTLES OF THE 20th CENTURY" for a whopping $5.00!!!! I also, last week, got JAG's USS Albany kit. I laid it out next to the Jim Shirley kit, and believe me, there's no comparison!!! Invest in the Jag kit, and praise them for thier artwork.It's a beaut. As to the vet thread, I am not one- I'm a squid kid-son of a career naval officer. Dad quit high school and fought the South Pacific war in the turret of a PV2, then got a commision in '57. Retired as a LCDR in '74. I grew up in places like Norfolk and Va. Beach, Sanford, Fl.,Quonset Point, R.I., Roosevelt Roads, P.R., Sigonella Sicily and Machrihanish, Scotland. Saw more than my share of flattops at NOB Norfolk, where I lived within eyesight of pier 12 ( Carrier docks). I mistakenly chose a somewhat less military route, probably due to my intense Navy background. I've been in Law Enforcement for 22 yrs, and have fought the losing battle against drugs for most of it. That's like law enforcement's version of the Vietnam war- no real commitment to the battle, and an administration in Washington that uses the poison as much as it decries it. I still have no idea who in politics is on our side and who is on the other side. No Paris peace talks here, though-too much money in human suffering. On the State level, where I work as an agent with the Florida Dep't of Law Enforcement, our commitment is as consistent as the changing Florida tides. One foriegn tourist shot, and we attack violent crime(not a bad thing, but it takes away from the other battle). God forbid we have wildfires and hurricanes! As for you vets, I grew up around many of you, your dads and uncles, and to a lesser extent, your moms, aunts ,etc. My dad has become the representative hero in my life, not for any one action, but for what he, and all of you stand for and did/do for us. I failed to understand that commitment early on, probably because I was too close and did not appreciate the sacrifices of previous generations.Older and wiser now, I have grasped the importance of it all, and can't do enough to preserve the memory and pass it on to my kids. In that light, I like to donate many of my finished projects to a local museum at a former Naval Air training base here in Central Fla (Deland NAS-'43-'45), and have built aircraft and ships on display there. It's the least I can do for the men and women who did so much for our safety security and way of life. Sorry for rambling. Happy modeling to the members of the most interesting and diverse group I've had the pleasure to be associated with!! Bob O'Connor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: rweilach@mindspring.com Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 15:27:46 -0400 Subject: USS Vestal I just received the Corsair Armada Production USS Vestal in the mail, which looks great. Now my mind is working at possibilities and I wonder if anyone knows the following information: 1. Was Vestal significantly changed from 1941 (kit) to 1944 ? 2. What was the painting schema using circa 1944 ? 3. Was the USS Prometheus identical during these time periods ? Thanks, Rob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Loren Perry Subject: Shirley's "buddahstat" and other snipe hunts Shirley's very readable post yesterday brought back some fun memories. I remember the ill-fated Lionel Train for Girls from the 1950's - all pastels colors on the entire freight train, from steam loco to caboose. Totally revolting. Nowadays, some full-size freight cars sport a few of these very same colors! But her "buddahstat" reminds me of some similar "snipe hunts" that U.S. Navy guys liked to play on the new rookies just reporting from boot camp. Does anyone here remember: 1. Sending the "boot" to the rope locker to get twenty yards of waterline; 2. Or having the poor slob report to the paint locker for a gallon can of propwash; 3. Ordering him to go to the tool room and check out a left-handed torque wrench; 4. Sending him off to Base Security to bring back two sets of arresting gear; 5. And finally, the old "Sea-Bat" trick (which you old salts will no doubt recall with glee); Anyone have any new ones? I'd especially like to hear what the Royal Navy and the various commonwealth navies have pulled off - everyone knows you boring blokes are all a little sick and twisted. Loren Perry Hi Loren, One trick that's fairly common is sending the "newbie" to the store for a long weight ;-) Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Chris Rogers Subject: Re: ARK ROYAL hi colour for Ark What Year?????? up to 1960 the Royal Navy had three Greys on there hulls Home Fleet Med fleet and Far east the decks are a Mid Brunswick Green BS 381c number 225 chris -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: MGross1352@aol.com Subject: Re: Italian Navy I must second those who came to the defense of the Italian Navy of World War Two. Notwithstanding the propaganda during the conflict, the Italian Navy fought with great courage. Lets not forget that the British were reading their code and were frequently at the right place at the right time. In fact the British did everything possible to make it look like they had discovered what was going on by other means such as having an aircraft appear shortly before action was joined as, though the plane had radioed the Italian position. It reached the point that the Italians thought that a spy was involved and for many years post war this theory was investigated until the codebreaking became known. Also, remember that the R.N. was blessed with radar and their skill increased as the war went on while the Italians basically had no operational radar when the war started and had only a few Gufo (owl) sets and a few German sets into late 1942 and 1943. I mean to take nothing away from the R.N. - its performance, especially while outnumbered, was exemplary. Even Admiral Cunningham wrote that the Italians fought gallantly. One cannot minimize the lack of fuel, which was a significant problem. In the June 1942 convoy battles the Italians performed well; by August 1942 they could not do much to stop the resupply of Malta because most units had no fuel. Likewise, the lack of carriers was a great drawback. Trained naval aviators would not have required the red and white recognition stripes which the Regia Aeronautica crews needed so they would not bomb their own ships. If the exploits of the naval commandos of the 10th light flotilla are unknown to readers then failure to recognize the Italian's gallantry is more understandable. Suffice it to say that they severely damaged HMS Valiant and Queen Elizabeth in Alexandria Harbor using manned torpedoes and they essentially sank HMS York in Suda Bay using explosive motorboats. They penetrated the harbor at Gibraltar numerous times and sank or damaged a number of ships and their assault on Valetta harbor,Malta, though a failure, was one of the most gallant operations of the war. As for their ships, they were short legged but they were designed for operations in the Med. and they produced some very fine ships (it is ironic that the Littorio class battleships, of a fascist navy and Hitler's ally were designed by General (engineer) Umberto Pugliese, who was Jewish). Italian Admirals were always hindered by orders not to enter combat unless the odds were in their favor as Mussolini wanted to maintain a fleet in being. The Italian Navy had planned for a conflict in 1942 at which time they would have been far better equipped to fight. They were not ready in June 1940, witness the large number of merchant ships which were interned when they could not get back to Italy. Moreover, Italy simply did not have the industrial base to fight a war and replace losses of material. The victor writes history and in the case of the Italian Navy in World War Two they have been poorly served. The amount of material on the topic, in English, is minimal. As an example, Admiral Iachino who commanded the Italian forces afloat in the Med for most of the war wrote a number of books describing his actions in a number of engagements yet none are available in English. To understand the results of any particular battle his insights are invaluable. Humor is always welcome but lets not denigrate anyone. Time to get off the soapbox. From Mark Grossman in East Brunswick, New Jersey; where my wife sleeps with the co-author of Regia Marina, Italian Battleships of World War Two. No, she is not cheating with the other guy (he is in Italy); self deprecation is okay. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Re: Zumwalt Class Surfboards FWIW, I too was reminded of the Monitor when I first saw the DD-21 designs. My first thought being "Great...the cheesebox on a raft for the 21st century". However, I love the surfboard anaology. As far as there never being anything good that starts with "National", the "National Defense Tanker" program started before WWII didn't turn out to be all that bad of a thing. Derek Wakefield -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: My day at the nats... I just wanted to say I had a good time the IMPS nats yesterday, and it was great to finally meet some of you in person. My only regret was a supreme lack of funds. By the time I walked out of the dealer's room, I'd added about $2,000 (at least) worth of resin to my wish list, but could barely afford to walk out with a $5 used winged-thing. Talk about depressing. I was glad to finally be able to see some of the handiwork done by folks on this list. The 1:700 PE led me to question "how'd they do that?" The large diorama with the 1:350 Enterprise and New Jersey led me to the decision "I gotta have one of those Big-E's" (wasn't as large as I thought it would be). The 1:200 Nichimo Yamato was just aweinspiring (the PE alone scared me!). The '45 Pennsy (converted from the Revell 1:720 kit) caused me to do a double take (I swore it was a resin kit the first time I looked at it). The 1:350 Musashi was wonderful, but seeing the GMM PE caused a shiver of dread (beautiful, but "Oh, I'm never gonna get that right!). I'm not sure who did the 1:350 Houston but...drool! Ditto with the HMS Sheffield. As far as the Carrier Group underway replenishment diorama, I only had one word for that, and I can't repeat it here. Now I really wanna build something! I was also impressed with the Tamiya 1:700 Indianapolis kit. Although it may have it's faults, it looks like it has a lot of potential. My friend who accompanied me, Ed Cook, asked me to extend his thanks, and to let you know he enjoyed the opportunity to meet those of you at the get together. Although he's not a ship modeler, he enjoyed it very much. Go Navy! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Norman C. Samish" Subject: USS Liberty Scandal >> Ex-SS Simmons Victory (a VC2-S-AP3 type built in 1945, if I recall correctly); converted in the early-to-mid 1960s to a "technical research" ship (AGTR-5). On June 8, 1967 the Liberty was shot up and torpedoed by Israeli forces with 34 dead and 171 wounded. << There's a lot of information about the USS Liberty incident at: http://www.arlingtoncemetery.com/wlmcgon.htm. This affair sounds like a lingering scandal that Israel and the U.S. governments are covering up. A Congressional Hearing is way overdue. The site says, "Over thirty-one (31) years after the attack, the crew is entitled to know the details concerning the attack by the Government of Israel and also the details of the role the US Government in the entire affair. Why were our aircraft recalled to their carriers on two (2) occasions before they reached our location to assess the situation, and what official ordered the recall after "Hot Line" communication was established with Moscow to alert Nasser that the planes were being sent to see what the condition of USS LIBERTY was? None of the planes ever reached our location. For over seventeen (17) hours we received no assistance from US forces in the Mediterranean. This is the only US Navy ship attacked by a foreign nation, involving a large loss of life and so many personnel injured that has never been accorded a full Congressional hearing." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "S Crawford" Subject: USS Liberty Hello Forks First off I'm a liar, I know about the USS Liberty incident (that's why I said 1967) First of all 54 not 34 US sailors were murdered as well as 171 were wounded during the attack which lasted over 2 hours. The Zionists or (sorry Israelis) not only attacked the Liberty with navel forces, but also with Israeli jets, the poor Liberty took over 800 rocket and torpedo hits When the Liberty refused to sink the 'Brave' Israelis machined gunned her life rafts and sent troop carrying helicopters to finish the job. (no doubt paid for by the US tax payer) Your right Jodie this attack is politely sensitive because if the great American ( I'm English) public found out the truth than maybe the terrorist hate state my loose its $ billions of US tax payers money that have kept this illegal state alive for the last 50 odd years, how else could such a small country the size of Wales with a few million people afford the latest US F15s F16s jets and being able to develop its own tank and missile programs, and also have 'the bomb'. Is this the way that Israel treats her friends? well I hate to think how she treats her enemies Ho yes we do know, they she steal they land and put them in refugee camps. Don't they. There is a fine video of this 'incident' called USS Liberty survivors:our story, for $19.95 R519 Colour USA 1992, try Amazon.com Thanks Steve Hi gang, The above post bears out what I said the other night about this being a list comprised of different nationalities & different creeds etc. This is it's strength & also it's weakness at times. So while there there is nothing wrong with the above post, it is afterall only an opinion. I must ask that any further posts on this thread along these political lines should be made to Steve personally. Any post sent here to the list along these lines will either be sent on to Steve or back to the poster. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Schiefet@cs.com Subject: Classic Warship's latest books Greetings, Aboard the USS Salem yesterday, I got a peak at Steve's two latest books - USS Salem and New Orleans Class Cruisers. Bravo Zulu Steve - an excellent job on both counts. Terrific photos, camo / color schemes and drawings. The Salem book will be available shortly in the ship's store (another reason to visit the Salem). Steve Singlar Pelham, NH -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SMMLcon Infomation & posts -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Marc Flake Subject: IPMS-Dallas Day 4 Just a quick note before I head off to bed: John Collins and Gary Kingzett won first places in 1/350 and 1/700 ships respectively. Gary's was the Iron Duke I mentioned yesterday -- fine model. Ed Grune earned a third place in subs. About 23 SMMLies gathered for conversation at the Reception. We all just got up and said "Hi, my name is ______, I got started in ship modeling . . ." Kind of a Shipmodlers Annonymous. Then we all talked about what we brought. Some disucssion was had about the next SMMLcon. Some were interested in trying to nail down a place and date. Chicago was mentioned (the place of the 2001 Nats). John Snyder reiterated the belief that we don't need to annualize or formalize SMMLcons, just do them. All it takes is for someone to organize one. (And that includes y'all across the seas, too.) I suppose we could have had a SMMLcon at the Dallas Nats, and maybe we did. We had a seminar on model shipbuilding and a discussion group. Oh yeah, we also talked about the Yamato and threatened to talk about Flower Class corvettes. And I was trying to remember some information on copyrights. We had a great time, let out peals of laughter and took a group photo that I think Mike Quan will send to the list web page. I know I didn't meet everyone from the list who attended, wish I did, maybe next time. Now it's time to go to bed. G'night, Marc -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Vincent Mccullough" Subject: Upcoming Model Exhibit This just in: The Downeast Shipmodelers Guild, in Maine, is sponsoring an exhibit of ship models in Camden, Maine, on September 1, 2, and 3, 2000, at the Camden Public Library. This exhibit is presented in conjunction with Camden's Windjammer Weekend. Contact for info: Martin Feldman, (207)596-7266, e-mail . Vince McCullough NRG Webmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Announcement from White Ensign Models Hi List For business reasons of their own Tom's Modelworks will no longer be supplying WEM with their products. Such stock as we have on hand will be used to fill existing orders. Anyone with an order already placed with us that includes Tom's Modelworks gear will be advised separately as to the availabilty of the product and their options. We at WEM are sorry to hear of this decision and we hope that in the future there will be another opportunity for us to stock Tom's Modelworks products. Many Thanks, Dave & Caroline Carter White Ensign Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume