Subject: SMML VOL 992 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 02:27:33 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Russian sub disaster 2: Variations in MS 32/33 camouflage question 3: Ark Royal 4: Re: War with China? 5: Re: Building a modern USS NJ? 6: Dragon Typhoon(Akula) RuN Submarine 1/350 Scale 7: China 8: Brass Rod Masts 9: Thoughts on Pearl Harbor 10: Re: IPMS judging Criteria 11: To Daniel Jones 12: Re: FSM articles 13: Re: paints 14: U.S. Officials Say Explosion Was Heard at Time Sub Sunk 15: Frantic Russian Effort to Rescue Crew of Sub 16: Re: Testors 17: FSM stuff/Pearl Harbo(u)r debate 18: FSM & Testor's paints 19: Re: War with China 20: Re: IPMS judging criteria 21: Re: IPMS/USA Nationals & Judging 22: USN Small Boats 23: USCG Plans 24: Re: War with China 25: USCG Wind Class Photos 26: Re: Pearl Harbor attack 27: Greetings from Sunny England 28: Adventures in Modeling - Chapter XI - Safety Tips 29: Edgar March Book - British Destroyers 30: Plan set 31: Russian sub - Breaking News 32: Russian sub / Oscar - Russian / Soviet Nuclear Forces 33: Undersea Rescue: For Every Option, an Obstacle -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Russian sub disaster Hi Guys Well you probably heard about it by now. The Russian Oscar II sub that sank in the arctic sea near Muransk.What kind of sub rescue ability dies the Russian Navy have. Do they have the mini deep sea subs designed for rescue like the USN has or other countries? I hope they recover the guys from that sub. Must be hell for family members. Craig -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Nathan Pettigrew Subject: Variations in MS 32/33 camouflage question This might be a very basic question, but I haven't been able to find the answer on my own yet. I was looking at http://www.shipcamouflage.com/ and was wondering about the variations in MS 32 and 33 camouflage patterns. For example MISSOURI was MS 32/22d. PRINCETON and COWPENS was MS 33/7a. Were these standard patterns? Would PRINCETON and COWPENS be painted exactly the same? Any suggested reading? Thanks, Nathan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Ark Royal Hi Bill Ark Royal had a steel deck. I can't find any photos of tie downs and its possible she commissioned without them. When she was designed a deck park was not Royal Navy practice. If you can find it get hold of the HMSO publication Ark Royal which has a lot of good photos of her deck. Contact me off list if you can't. Re China Those who speak do not know those who know do not speak. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Arjun Sarup" Subject: Re: War with China? >> India: remember the border war along the McMahon Line. China also is suspicious of India for harboring the Dalai Lama and may attempt a preemptive attack. That India has nuclear weapons doesn't help the situation any. Besides, Pakistan is China's ally and could be used as a proxy. << I suggest you put on that asbestos suit; you mentioned that there exists a possibility of war with India. Before we get back to talking about ship models, perhaps it would be pertinent to mention the McMahon Line and the 1962 War, where China invaded India territory and pushed back Indian troops. We certainly didn't invade Chinese territory, and proof of that fact is that China still holds substantial amounts of Indian territory captured in 1962. A look at a map of the sub-continent will show the amount of disputed territory held by China. To view India as a threat on the basis of disputed territory is one big joke. Next, the Dalai Lama. We didn't abduct him, you know. He sought refuge from a peaceful country that was torn apart by Chinese troops. Come to think of it, I haven't heard of anybody seeking political asylum in China. The concept usually works within peaceful, democratic nations. By the way, what exactly would a preemptive Chinese attack on India hope to achieve where the Dalai Lama is concerned? Finally, about nuclear weapons. If anyone thinks Indians are going to arm themselves with pebbles while Goliaths hold boulders, forget it. It was precisely the 1962 War which taught us the lesson of being unprepared and taking your neighbors for granted. If I interpret your statement correctly, China being an ally of Pakistan is reason enough for India to attack China? Sorry, but you don't have to be a military genius to deduce that a country like India can't afford to fight on two fronts. Simply put, Indians are not the only ones who view with concern China's military build-up. The several opinions expressed on SMML should be indicative of that. And yes, let's continue discussing the PLAN's expansion plans if necessary. That way, more people can figure out the threat perception for themselves. Arjun Sarup Mauritius -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: drwells@hogpb.mt.att.com (David R Wells) Subject: Re: Building a modern USS NJ? Fellow Listers, I went to see Big J a day before Joe did, (we TRIED to go the same day, but it didn't quite work out.....) and have some SLIGHTLY different views. "Poutre, Joseph A" wrote: (a bunch of stuff deleted) >> As I waiting on line, I noticed that she is riding high in the water, being empty of fuel, water and ammo. << She's drawing about 22 feet in her current empty state. >> As far down as I could see, the lower hull was _black_ - no trace of the expected red. A good two meters above water was painted black, and as I climbed on board I looked into the water, and it was black as far down as I could see (not far, the water was filthy, but far enough). It appears that the Big J carries black all the way down to the keel. << Some of the black looked recent. The "boot topping" looked clean and freshly painted. When last I saw her, (11 Nov 1999) the boot topping looked pretty bad. Also, the boot topping was slightly crooked in a few places..... I can't help wonder if she has been partially repainted since November. Also, I wonder if they just painted the area immediately above the waterline. I'm pretty sure the Navy repaints the waterline when they put a ship into reserve. I wonder if there's anti-fouling red further down..... >> Hopefully we'll get a nice clear photo of her in drydock to confirm this; she goes in this week. As for the visit, it was wonderful to finally go on board the ship, to walk the teak decks (I corrected some yutz who said it was plywood), << Although the decks are currently in VERY bad shape. They'll probably have to be replaced. >< to feel the solid strength of her armored turrets. I also discovered that my models in progress need some corrections, such as in the shape of the teak deck. << Some specifics: The Revell 1/720 kit that Joe is working on does not have enough of the aft deck in non-skid. I believe that the other Iowas have a smaller pad like the one on the Revell 1/720 kit. Curiously enough, the Revell 1/350 kit is correct, as far as the helo deck is concerned. It matches our early '80s photos quite well. Can't comment on the Tamiya 1/350, not having seen it out of the box. The Navy had cut the teak deck out where the large helo pad used to be, (probably during her '81-'82 refit) but the non-skid surface has now been removed as well. Currently, she's just got a bare steel deck aft, with some "knobs" where the non-skid was attached. There's a slight step down from the teck deck to the metal deck where the helo deck used to be. I'll bet that it was flush while she was in service. One thing I found interesting is that you can still see quite clearly where the two forward 40mm mounts were. There's an attachment point for each mount and the cut-down (flush with the deck) remnant of the splinter shield. The wood had to go around the steel base of the shields. Make sure that when you build an '80s vintage New Jersey, you include the remnants of the splinter shield. The Revell 1/350 actually does this, although not perfectly. IIRC, when I visited the Wisconsin some years back, there was no visible trace of the forward 40mm mounts. >> Personal opinion piece: (Not Society opinion, mine) Unfortunately, the Home Port Alliance has chosen not to ask for volunteers to assist. << The day I was there, they did have some volunteers, but they did not seem too knowledgeable. I was amused by some of their misconceptions. Gosh, I didn't know Adm. Halsey was from Edison! (He was born in Elizabeth) David R. Wells "There seems to be something wrong | David R. Wells with our bloody ships today" | AT&T Middletown, NJ Adm. D. Beatty, May 31, 1916 | http://home.att.net/~WellsBrothers/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Peter Nikolopoulos Subject: Dragon Typhoon(Akula) RuN Submarine 1/350 Scale I recently bought a Dragon Typhoon class 1/350. Can anyone suggest pictures (preferably) in colour of Russian Typhoon class naval bases with subs and of the subs themselves? Also, has anyone else made this kit? What do people think of it ? Peter Nikolopoulos -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Phil M. Gollin" Subject: China A few points maybe not readily considered (especially cosidering some of the comments passed by some of the American members of the Board - not flaming, merely factual) ; a: There is no legal, moral, or any other reason for China (or any other Nation) not to arm itself as it wants, within any international agreements. The United Nations (for ALL its many faults) is the only valid forum whereby "rogue" states can be controlled. b: As far as China is concerned it has at least two competitor States with large military (including nuclear) armouries. Therefore it has a choice from a "minimum" deterrence upto and including "Mutually Assured Destruction" levels of arms, without EITHER of those two States being able to complain. c: To a lesser extent, it has two other States on its doorstep (India and Pakistan) who are squabbling like children with regards to nuclear weapons. d: Its one major outstanding land problem, Taiwan, is "protected" by one of those States with a massive nuclear arsenal. e: That State is looking as if it will break an international treaty and make nuclear deterrence harder by investing in a missile defence system. THOSE ARE ALL FACTS. What do the USA and Russia do about minimising China's worries and hence military build-up depends upon their maturity and common sense (neither Country was noted for these attributes in the original cold war). IF the USA pretends, as it did with the USSR first with the non-existent "bomber-gap" and then with the non-existent "missile-gap", that China is threatening them directly (as opposed to having local territorial ambitions), instead of the other way around then the consequence will presumably be the same, a military arms race to some mutually re-assuring level. If the USA can understand the difference in usage of the various type of weapons and forces then maybe the response can be more sensible and at a lower level. The big problem is Taiwan. China believes (and most people looking at it rationally would agree) that Taiwan is part of China. However, in international law it isn't and the United Nations "should" safeguard it. In real terms, however, Taiwan can be only be protected by the USA - but unless that is under the auspices of the United Nations then it will be like the USA protecting South Vietnam when the referendum was already for unification - the USA will think itself right, but very few others will. Don't look at the world through the wrong end of a telescope and think you view is correct. Try to see an objective picture. The big bad guy in the world today is the one who will neither throw away all the big weapons, but also won't play by the rules. Like the poor copper on the beat, it doesn't matter how the criminals behave, if you don't act correctly and in accordance with the law, using appropriate force, you're going to be the villain, not the "bad guy". Remember, the US has numerous nuclear missiles capable of striking China, it has had its Fleet near enough the coast to attack, it has military resouces based in Countries near enough to attack China directly and has within living memory overflown China, and had it's Taiwan allies overfly China. What would you feel like if the Chinese were doing this to you ? Phil -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "John Rule" Subject: Brass Rod Masts >> I'm working on a small project and have come to the point where I need to build some masts using brass rod (never done this before). The subject is a 1:700 NNT Aa-80 Destroyer and I need to fabricate the fore and aft mast assemblies. The assemblies are simple . . . single vertical mast with one or two spars. My need is some instruction on the best way(s) to afix brass spars to the brass mast. << I've attempted this fairly successfully on one occasion although I'm sure more practice would result in improvement. The basic method was to cut the masts, spars etc to size and use solder to assemble them. Notching the brass rod will help. I used plasticine to hold the pieces in position when soldering. I've been told that "blue tack" is as good or better. In my case the project was complicated by crow's nests and spotting platforms, which present problems if made of plastic. Best of luck. John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "John Rule" Subject: Thoughts on Pearl Harbor >> I agree with Mr. Jones completely. He has stated the facts as they are, Facts! Not, as Mr. Jones pointed out, someone's "theories" as to the events. Roosevelt loved the USN, so I seriously don't think that he would have let the attack happen, had he known. Had he known, I also agree with Mr. Jones, the outcome on the open ocean, might have been far worse for the USN at that time. Roosevelt loved the USN, so I seriously don't think that he would have let the attack happen, had he known. << Indeed, and you are as welcome to you opinion as anyone else is welcome theirs. But your comment that "Roosevelt loved the USN, so I seriously don't think that he would have let the attack happen, had he known," is a as much opinion, and not a fact based statement. There are so many examples of deceit and dirty tricks in history, that I believe one has to keep an open mind especially when confronted with the official line. I'm sure that Britain would be hard pushed to admit that it became embroiled in WW1 to avoid the government being toppled and replaced with a different political party. Nor is the US likely to admit that it contributed significantly via the CIA to the rise in production and distribution of illegal drugs, in south-east Asia and Central and South America. Keep an open mind. John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Dbrown303@aol.com Subject: Re: IPMS judging Criteria >> Also, when I don't place at Nationals (I have no illusions, having seen the models in Dallas and the ones in Santa Clara in '98), will there be a way to get feedback on what the judges thought of my particular model? << >> Don't sell yourself short Art. I believe the magnificent USS Texas Derek Brown won best of show with a couple of years back was his FIRST ship. At least that's what I was told. The answer to your question is absolutely. I instruct all the ship judges (if at all possible) to make themselves available after the award ceremony in the model room to answer any questions you or anyone else may have regarding how their model was judged. They will not compare your model to anyone else's. Just show you where the problems are on your model. << Hi Rusty and gang Yes - the Texas was indeed the first (and only to date) ship model that I have built. And Art - Rusty is exactly right - it does not matter how much detail there is on a model (ship or otherwise), if the basics are lacking - seams, alignment, finish - then other entries may prevail. It also helps to have good references, and in the case of the Texas, I had the 1:1 available for photos and photos, and more photos, and yes, I know own stock in Fuji film. :^) A good explanation of this is to go back to the past IPMS shows and notice how many of the Out Of the Box winners also won a first second or third - you will be surprised. This shows that well executed basics will win out every time. Aside from the basics - read and talk to the ship masters - Steve Wiper, John Warneke, Bob Steinbrun (Bob I haven't had the pleasure yet), Phillip Toy, Rusty, and the others. You'll be surprised at how willing they are to share their techniques and experiences about colors, details, etc. Sometimes I think getting wrapped up in the competition overshadows the other reasons for going to Nats, AMPS, or any other show - getting to know the other modelers. 99% of the modelers I know are not out to conquer the modeling world to the point where they are secretive about their techniques. I have simply applied the lessons that I have learned over time. Derek -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Puckhead93@aol.com Subject: To Daniel Jones Yes, you are right in assuming that it was only diplomatic messages (god knows I could argue this point much better in person). Yes Pacific Command was on alert, and the assumed target was the Phillipines or Dutch East Indies, which were hit anyways. I have studied the events of Pearl Harbor since I was about 10. I guess my main argument is the events happning the day of December 7th. The waves of planes detected at the radar station, the Ward's sinking of the sub, and the utter dismissal of repeated warnings from Washington and the bumbling along the way. Washington knew something was up. They knew that Japan was going to break off releations which is why the carriers were at sea on the 7th. Yes the United States got caught with its pants down, but events like that can and did stir the nation. Like Yammammoto said, I beleive we have awakened a sleeping giant. Well, whatever the reason, it was probably a combination of all the events coming together to destroy the battleships moored in Pearl. We got them back though, time and time again. Josh Mayne -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: Re: FSM articles I have to agree with Bob Steinbrunn, I too have had many articles in FSM and they have always treated me just fine. When they reprinted my article on converting Oregon to Massachusetts in their book "Scale Model Detailing" they sent me a check for that too, AND THAT WAS ABOUT A SHIP. Cheers, Bob Santos -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: paints >> Yesterday, Marc Flake mentioned Ceramcoat in his comments about Testors' << Are these artists colors or craft paints or what?? where are they available?? Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: U.S. Officials Say Explosion Was Heard at Time Sub Sunk http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/late/15cnd-russian-sub.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: Frantic Russian Effort to Rescue Crew of Sub http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/europe/081500russia-sub.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Lamar Jones Subject: Re: Testors I'm using Delta Creamcoat Acrylics thinned with Future and sometimes a bit of water. Not bad paint and good color choices. I mix in Fuji 35mm film canisters; their clairty lets you see colors without popping the top. I too prefer Tamiya but other stuff works well. I'm also not displeased with Model Shipways" marine colors. Water seems to thin them best, but I've also tried Future. Whatever, Testors isn't the only decent paint around. Try other things. There's a good model of the USS Memphis here in Baton Rouge painted with thinned housepaint, and it looks great!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Jodie Peeler Subject: FSM stuff/Pearl Harbo(u)r debate hello all.... Bob Steinbrunn wrote: >> 1996 calendar and then sent me a check for it. They were under no obligation to do so since they had purchased the article from me and with it went the copyright, but they did anyway. This indicates a high level of integrity. Along this line they've sold articles of mine to Italian and Japanese magazines and have been good with me about this arrangement. << I agree. Just a couple weeks ago, out of the blue, FSM sent me a nice note and a check for $40 because some content I wrote for the magazine a few years ago got used in another forum. That was mighty decent of them, even though FSM owns the content. Say what you want about the magazine's content (and I have), but the folks at FSM are some of the best you'd care to deal with...unlike those at certain publication firms I could mention, where it's a challenge (ahem) to get paid.... YHSAIO@aol.com wrote: >> With that, I say, let's just get back to talking about ship models and put this matter to rest by killing this thread (please Shane!) because this list is supposed to be friendly and not stir up controversial or xenophobic sentiments. << I second the motion -- it's getting out of hand, and becoming a headache. Shane? :) jodie http://www.mindspring.com/~raisingirl/ Hi Jodie, et al While the China thread is interesting, esp with all the various viewpoints, howsabout we start to close it down over the next day or so, ok. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: GUSDOCVILL@aol.com Subject: FSM & Testor's paints Hi ya all! I wish to throw in my 2 cents worth on FSM & Testor paint increase. . . I have talked with the people of FSM, complaining of "no ship articles". Wow! was I ever put to shame!!! We are ALL ship builders & very knowledgeable about ships, right!? How many of US are "writers"!? I am NOT!!! WHATEVER excuse I wish to use, cannot & do not write articles about how & what I do with my ships. Anyone else like me!? FSM made it VERY clear to me that they would LOVE to publish articles on ships - IF they had the articles to put in FSM!!! They explained that there are NEVER enough ship articles to publish! I recall being told to submit an article & they would proofread it & help me make it "presentable". They told me to submit negatives of my ships & they would pick the ones to use. I never did. LOTS of gentlemen whose ships I have seen & tried to write, asking for tips on how they build their ships. NEVER heard from them. The "why" no ship builder submits articles to FSM is as numerous as the stars in the sky. Sir, I do not know why your article was rejected. I would love to read it!!! I would ask FSM to explain the "why" your article was rejected, & resubmit it. Then, submitted to SMML & let us read it. I would be greatly honored to own a copy of your article because you had the courage & /@#$% to submit your heartfelt thoughts about a ship you did!! Testor Paints. . .I do not plan on buying any of their paints if over $2. The thing that hit me as funny was the comments about "dishing out big buck for resin kits, but complaining about the paint price increase". How many recall the comments made some SMML issues back about plastic ship builders not crazy about "dishing out the big bucks for resin ship kits"? Now you all know how I felt about the comments about buying plastic kits, & not wanting to dish out the big bucks for resin kits. I love what is see in the resin kits but it is still too high a price to pay -- for ME. Subject over & now forgotten. Thank you all for listening. . . Grace and peace of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, bless you all and your beloved familles. Yours in Christ, Gus Semper Fi Hi all, While not wanting to damper the euthusasm for FSM, I have found more ship related articles in club magazines. The various IPMS & other club magazines around seem to have a lot more people writing ship articles, with both kit & reference material abounding in certain publications over the years. Maybe one solution here is to find a model club which publishes a magazine & has an exchange program in place with other clubs. Looking around at the exchange magazines that my club (APMA) has from various clubs around the world the amount of quality material is just staggering. Plus most club magazines do not have that commercial imperative to be the first out with reviews etc & they cover some really esoteric material as well. Regards, Shane APMA VP & Asst Editor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "chisum" Subject: Re: War with China Kerry, What everyone needs to be concerned about with China are all of her advances across the board, namely the desire to venture into space. Our military relies heavily on satellite coms on all levels, mainly on the higher levels. If you can't talk to your Armies or Corps, or give commands to your missle subs, the "quality" of the equipment our forces enjoy doesn't really matter against such great numbers. Our greatest advantage along with the gee wiz weapons systems, is the C3 (Command/Control/Communication) we have. Eliminate that combat multiplier and, well as it was once said, there is a certain quality in quantity.... As far as the other writer stating that Taiwan is an internal Chinese problem, my reply would be yea, like the American colonies were for the British. Don't believe the re-education that is taking place over Taiwan. My reply to the Chinese general: Is Taiwan worth losing all of China? They have chosen to separate from their mother country and held democratic elections, and establish their own government. What else can they do? Of all the countries for the U.N. to support, it seems Taiwan should be on top of the list. Randy C. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "chisum" Subject: Re: IPMS judging criteria Dear Rusty, I can agree with Art over the issue of criteria. In all of the regionals I have attended an now the recent nationals, I have yet to see any standardized judging sheet showing criteria used and how it was weighed over other criteria. Most of the time it seems that criteria weight is arbitrary, depending on the judge's personal approach. I think IPMS should have a standardized "gig" sheet for all categories, and when it's over, the modeler has it as a record on how he/she can improve. I think the criteria should include consideration for the size of the model. A 6'' model won't have as many flaws as a 26'' model yet there should be a ratio for allowable flaws on a model given its size. Let's say there was 2 flaws on the 6'' model, and 4 on a 36'' model. Total flaws would give the award to the smaller model, yet given the size of the models and the inherent odds of a larger ship, the 36'' model should be the winner with a ratio. This is a rough example, but I hope you understand. Also is accuracy taken in account? The flaws I previously referred to were modeling techniques, but what about accuracy. It seems like many model judges can tell you the number of rivets on a P-51, but when it comes to ships, judges(in general) take the model for face value that it is accurate(i.e. did they use serpetine chain for the anchor chain or a wrong aircraft on the catapult?) Paint tones can't really be judged, since there will always be weathering and color compression, but physical depictions can. This inherently implies that the judge has to know the content and the background of the subject modeled and the model(if it was a kit) to see if the modeler corrected any manufacturer's errors. I think the modelers should be given a higher standing if they made an attempt to accurize a model, since it shows that the modeler is striving for a more accurate depiction of the subject......... Whew!! Sincerely, Randy C. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: IPMS/USA Nationals & Judging Hi, Thanks very much to Rusty White for his reply to my post about judging and the IPMS/USA Nationals. It was very helpful! Now if I can just buckle down and get something finished.... Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Victor M. Baca" Subject: USN Small Boats Modelers wishing to obtain U.S. Navy small boat plans should contact the Whatcom Museum Of History And Art in Bellingham, WA (Archives Department). Their H.C. Hanson collection has enough small naval craft to give your models extra detail and class. There's a set (I believe it's located in Misc. Box 25, 1940s) showing all the fittings and goodies found on naval small craft such as ship's and utiilty boats. There are also a few USCG patrol boats, plenty of tugs and fishing boats and some Royal Navy types as well. Most of these plans are on blueprint paper (bluelines) and can be reproduced on vellum or bond paper using an engineering Xerox machine. The main drawback to the collection is that you need to state exactly what your needs are as there is no listing available except for the museum's own file list and that does not show everything in the collection. The usual problem of not enough personnel and money from the city to fully catalog Hanson's naval architecture and ship photo collection. The money obtained from plan and photo sales helps keep the collection viable. They can be contacted at: Whatcom Museum Of History And Art 121 Prospect Street Bellingham, WA 98225 (360) 676-6981 http://www.cob.org/cobweb/museum/archives/hanson.htm Happy Hunting, Victor Baca -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Victor M. Baca" Subject: USCG Plans Bravo Zulu Bob Evans! You must have spent hours typing up the USCG Museum NW plan listing. Now, why would anyone want to build anything else after seeing the list showing ex-DEs, icebreakers, tugs and (drool) cutters? I'm getting out my check book... Victor Baca -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: Roland Mar Subject: Re: War with China Before we close out this thread, just a thought about the "Chinese perspective". My father came from a small village on a tributary of the Pearl River upstream of Hong Kong. The 'r' on the end of the family name was gratuitously added by an immigration official when he became a citizen by joining the army in WW II. [you should see what they did to the names of other family members!]. Sharing Han blood does not necessarily mean sharing the same perspective, so as I noted before, we shall agree to disagree. Incidentally, I for one will be watching China Ocean Shipping Corp. [COSCO] container ships with an even more jaundiced eye than before, if that is possible. Roland Mar -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "Victor M. Baca" Subject: USCG Wind Class Photos Attached are two mystery photos. I believe they show the USCGC Eastwind, but cannot be certain as there's only a partial U.S. National Archives number of G-2(?)995. If anyone can identify the 2 images, I'd appreciate it. If nothing else, they may be useful for modelers. Victor Baca Photomarine Archives Model Ship Journal Hi, The attached pictures will be forwarded to SMML's Webmaster for inclusion in the next update. Regards, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: tom Subject: Re: Pearl Harbor attack From: Puckhead93@aol.com >> I can not credit the Japanese with a successful mission at Pearl. Magic intercepts were coming in and the White House knew exactly where the ships were. Somebody had to have known somewhere or else there was a really big foul up in the chain of command in the intelligence community. For instance, the 13 part message that was sent to Nomura and Karousio (don't count on my spelling) was supposed to be delivered just before the attack, 1 PM Washington time. An attack was expected somewhere at that time, but because of the delay in the message it wasn't read till hours after the attack. The White House knew all this, but nobody did anything. And Admiral Kimmel and General Short paid for it with they're careers. << Forgive this long post but I can't bear to let this go on unchecked. At no time did any diplomatic message (the only traffic the US was able to read during 1941) ever mention the locations of any IJN vessels or any aspect of any operational plan leading up to Pearl Harbor. The Japanese diplomatic corps, like the highest level civilian Ministers of the Japanese Government and the senior Army command were completely in the dark regarding the Pearl Harbor attack. They knew war was coming but not when, where or how. Advance knowledge of the Pearl Harbor operation was limited to the IJN officers who created, approved and carried out the plans. Within the government the knowledge was limited to those Cabinet level Ministers who were also uniformed officers (at that time the Army, Navy, and War Ministers plus the Prime Minister). The myth about the White House knowing the location of the IJN carriers is based on the "Seaman Z" story which appeared in books by Toland and now Stinnett. "Seaman Z" was a San Francisco businessman named Bob Ogg who allegedly claimed that as a Lt. Comdr.. in the San Francisco District Intelligence Office in December 1941 he handled intercepted radio messages transmitted by the IJN striking force as it crossed the northern Pacific towards Pearl Harbor. The senders were identified as the Japanese carriers and their location plotted based on the direction the signals were coming from (single point triangulation???). This information was passed up the chain of command but FDR withheld it from the commanders at Pearl Harbor. There are a few flaws with the story... first off Ogg's rank, he wasn't a Lt. Comdr.. DIO investigator in San Francisco but rather a Seaman First Class working as a night watchman. Also unmentioned is the fact that he was related to the Kimmels, Adm. Tom Kimmel's wife was Ogg's cousin whom he had grown up with living in his uncle's home. The Seaman Z story came from interviews Ogg gave author Toland in 1981 but in 1983 another historian making tape recordings for an oral history got a story that flat out contradicted and was much less dramatic than the version Toland pushed. Finally numerous Japanese sources insist that complete radio silence was maintained by combined fleet prior to the attack, radio discipline being so tight that transmit keys were removed from radios and secured. Best regards, Tom Kremer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: John Synder Subject: Greetings from Sunny England Hello America, London callling....er...no, that was Edward R. Murrow, wasn't it? Exploring sites for a potential UK Division of S&S, this correspondent has been under the guidance and care of the redoubtable Caroline Carter of White Ensign Models, and has nearly learned to communicate with the locals. Have been aboard the frigate, HMS TRINCOMALEE (a minor British warship) at her berth in the historic port of Hartlepool (if you've seen "Hornblower", you've seen Hartlepool) and am looking forward to a visit to Portsmouth and HMS WARRIOR, HMS VICTORY, HMS MARY ROSE, and the WW1 monitor.... Have been up to Edinburgh, Scotland for the military tattoo at Edinburgh Castle--massed pipe bands (MUST talk to you Shane, about the Oz contingent!!), and then across to meet Peter Hall and his lovely wife, Julie. Peter has an incredible collection of absolutely stunning models (hope I'm never in competition with HIM!!), and I got to see the master for the forthcoming WEM 1/350 KNOX-class frigate--beautiful bit of modeling and design work. Patterns to be completed this week. Back in Herefordshire I've been put to work by that slavedriver, Dave Carter in updating the WEM list of pre-owned books. Best look to your collective wallets--there's some good stuff that will be appearing on the next WEM website update. More to come...now back to discussions of future joint undertakings..... John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys http://www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Adventures in Modeling - Chapter XI - Safety Tips A Modeler's Practical Guide to Safety (and First Aid) in the Hobby Room 1. After impaling your left index finger with a #61 twist drill, do not try to pull it out. Push it through. In a few days, if infection doesn't set in, you can resume modeling. 2. After slicing your left middle finger deeply with an X-Acto #11 blade, a simple bandage made of super glue and a shop towel will stanch the flow of blood and let you resume modeling. 3. If using burning sprue to create realistic smoke stains, be careful not to let small globs of burning plastic to drop onto your unprotected instep; however, if you forget this rule, do not try to remove the burning plastic with your fingers. Instead, take the bowl of water you use for wet sanding and/or decal soaking to douse the flame and cool the plastic. An icepack on the ankle will permit you to resume modeling at once; however, you won't be running any marathons any time soon. 4. When sniffing modeling glue, do NOT attempt to sniff cyanoacrylic glue. This merely leads to nasal congestion. 5. When you glue your fingers together with crazy glue, do not attempt to separate them with an X-Acto knife. Instead, pull them apart - the skin will grow back remarkably quickly. However, if you crazy glue an important and delicate part to your finger, it is acceptable to use an X-Acto knife to salvage the part. Don't worry - you'll heal (and refer to Safety Tip #2 above). 6. When you spill paint on your wife's new off-white living room carpet (distracted by watching Lethal Weapon in order to model one of Roger's many boats), blame it on the cat. If you don't have a cat, immediately go to the pet store and buy one. Be sure to spill paint on the cat to make your story believable. 7. When you accidentally drop your X-Acto knife and it lands point-down in your instep, don't blame the cat - just make sure you don't bleed on the carpet. Before removing the knife, review Safety Tip #2 - but do not, under any circumstances, confuse an X-Acto knife with a #61 twist drill and try to push it through as noted in Safety Tip #1 - pull it out, as soon as you have your crazy glue and shop towel ready. 8. When sanding, if you get dust in your eye, do not rub your eye if you've recently been using crazy glue. Good luck and happy modeling! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29) From: "John Clements" Subject: Edgar March Book - British Destroyers A posting last weekend, or thereabouts - I always get to read SMML a day or two late due to working away from home - from a correspondent who had just acquired this prize item made me look up this very rare book on one of the Internet second hand book search sites (having previously been put off by the prices, and failed in the auction referred to in the posting), to discover it at a bookshop in the UK at a very reasonable £120. Quite co-incidentally I had, the same day, sold my model railway layout - to make more time for ships, of course - so had the notes burning a hole in my pocket. I am looking forward to spending the rest of the summer overdosing on British destroyers! The point of all this is to say thank you to the SMMLer who mentioned the book, and whilst I am it, also the member who posted a message about working on brass rod for masts and mentioned the tip about cutting a slot round the tips of spars to hold the thread. That's what SMML is all about; very much appreciated. John Clements -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 30) From: Damian Pliszka Subject: Plan set Hi all, Polish modelling magazine "Modelarz" released in last three issues complete plan set showing USS Clark (actually ex. USS Clark now it is ORP Gen. K. Pulaski) FFG 11 as after 1995 refit. It consist 6 A1 sheets with general wiev in 1:200 and details in 1:100 and 1:50. It looks really good. Regards Damian Pliszka Slupsk, Poland -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 31) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: Russian sub - Breaking News http://wire.ap.org/?PACKAGEID=russiansub -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 32) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: Russian sub / Oscar - Russian / Soviet Nuclear Forces See last section for plans/photos http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/theater/949.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 33) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: Undersea Rescue: For Every Option, an Obstacle http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/europe/081600russia-sub-d.1.GIF.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume